Originally posted by zaxtor99 A lot of great f'ing RPG games for sure. Most of them offered to us in the 90s until ofcourse the recent Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion. And as much as I like Oblivion and it's stellar graphics... I still find it slightly lacking of something that so many great RPGs in the 90's had. I don't know quite what it's missing though. Perhaps it just almost feels too "serious" and lacks that "cutesy heart & soul" that I miss from so many RPGs of yesteryear. I dunno. I haven't ever really played Fallout 1 or 2 myself, nor have I played some of the other RPGs that a lot of you are mentioning like Arcanum and some others. There's just so many great RPGs no doubt. Which is really why I started this whole thread. To get you all really thinking about the quality, the heart, and the soul that so many of these beloved RPGs contained. ...And this really was a "setup", I have to be honest. Now, I ask you to be honest as well.... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* 'Cuz here is my BIG QUESTION now people....
Do you find that todays' current mmorpgs have any where near that level of detail, soul, and heart put into their code? Is it just me, or do pretty much all of the mmorpgs today feel pretty damn bland and colorless and uhhhh "blah" in comparison to some of these great RPGs of 5, 10 or even 15 years ago on much less powerful consoles? ...That's why I started this thread and I'm really curious to see what some of you have to say and how you answer this question. Thanks. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
- Zaxx
You can't compare those offline Roleplaying games with MMORPG's. MMORPG"s are MUCH bigger then offline rpg's. if they put all the work they put in mmorpg's as they put in offline RPG's, then Everquest 1 would be finally released next month.
1) Planescape: Torment (My all time favorite of any genre)
One of the many amazing things about Torment is that even though it lacks the quintessential element of an RPG (player character creation) I felt more empathy for the main character than any other I have played, even those I lovingly created myself.
Without doubt this is the most immersive single-player RPG Ive ever played.
2) ES3: Morrowind
I loved Daggerfall but oh my the glitches. I tried the demo of Battlespire and passed it up. Finally Bethesda sorted themselves out and brought us the almost perfect Morrowind. This game is so huge and the journies so exhausting that my character would reach a destination and fall into bed for a day or two before reporting to the GuildMaster. If you enjoy feeling every inch of dust on your characters body, this game is a must.
Sidenote: They also did away with the regular trading hours of Daggerfall, whereby you could only purchase from traders during certain hours of the day. I think this was a great decision: after all we'd only be 'cheating' by standing outside pressing the "wait" button, not to mention its a bit silly that a trader will buy your illegal Skooma, but only between the hours of 8am and 6pm. Disappointed to see they brought back regular trading hours with Oblivion.
3) Baldur's Gate 2
And the return of our hero from the original BG.....Minsc "Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes!"
Special mentions also for The Eye of the Beholder series (where it all began for me) and Westwoods Lands of Lore (technically an Action/RPG, but Diablo made it into your cut ) - loved Patrick Stewarts voice so much it turned me onto Next Generation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Betrayal At Krondor: "the prime example of how a CRPG should be done"
Originally posted by Gameloading You can't compare those offline Roleplaying games with MMORPG's. MMORPG"s are MUCH bigger then offline rpg's. if they put all the work they put in mmorpg's as they put in offline RPG's, then Everquest 1 would be finally released next month.
I know that single player RPGs and mmorpgs hosting thousands of players are very different styles of games. That's not what I'm trying to ask. What I'm asking is if you honestly think that todays mmorpgs are programmed with the same level of "PASSION" and "DEDICATION TO THE GAME" that so many RPGS of yesteryear were programmed with?
See, I really feel that most mmorpgs are programmed with one thing in mind: Get it out and get it up and get as much $$$ as possible, piss on giving the game world a living, breathing heart & soul for the players to take part of...... -and- so many of our favorite RPGs were programmed from the heart with a passion and desire to give the game world a life and a epic feel.
I'm such a terribly slow game-player. I still haven't finished Baldur's Gate (!), GTA, or GTA: Vice City! Heck, add Morrowind to that list as well.
Morrowind absolutely blew me away. Not only do you have total freedom to create your own character, but the game is incredibly story-driven and has superb NPCs, dialogue, plot and most of all, a real sense of place. The look, feel and even sound of the game is totally different to anything else on the market. It may be a gritty fantasy game but it is a fantasy game with imagination. As soon as I upgrade my Pc, I'll be installing lots of player mods to stretch out my game-play - given that I've played it a great deal and am nowhere near finishing! Oblivion? I'm still knee-deep in Morrowind.
Single-player RPG gamers are really spoilt for choice. I've heard that Planescape Torment is a very dark, adult, character driven game. It has been on my list for a number of years - once I've finally managed to finish the games listed above. I will also have to look out for Fallout I & II.
Bard's Tale as an RPG? Not really. It was so of it's time i.e. cosmetic RPG elements on top of a basic hack 'n' slash game. I had tremendous fun playing it (and of course, another game that I never finished - but nearly did).
Anyone crusty enough to remember Infocom (Zork et al), Level 9 (Snowball triology) and Magnetic Scrolls?
Regards, Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
Originally posted by Riotgirl Bard's Tale as an RPG? Not really. It was so of it's time i.e. cosmetic RPG elements on top of a basic hack 'n' slash game. I had tremendous fun playing it (and of course, another game that I never finished - but nearly did).
The Bards Tale is much older series that used to have a text only interface. You could buy the data on sudio cassettes that you uploaded into the Apple][ or Texas Instrument computers originally. The sequels added windows and little static pictures of the person you were talking to in the corner of the 4-16 colour screens.
The new "The Bard's Tale" is hack and slash, but that is just another knock off licensing of an old game name.
Originally posted by Gameloading You can't compare those offline Roleplaying games with MMORPG's. MMORPG"s are MUCH bigger then offline rpg's. if they put all the work they put in mmorpg's as they put in offline RPG's, then Everquest 1 would be finally released next month.
I know that single player RPGs and mmorpgs hosting thousands of players are very different styles of games. That's not what I'm trying to ask. What I'm asking is if you honestly think that todays mmorpgs are programmed with the same level of "PASSION" and "DEDICATION TO THE GAME" that so many RPGS of yesteryear were programmed with?
- Zaxx
And can I ask what "in development" MMORPG sites and forums you've visited recently that have made you feel this way?
Being part of a work in progress - even at mostly an observer level but still having input - is extremely exciting and leaves me in no doubt about the level of dedication and passion involved.
But I still feel youre expecting too much if you continue to measure MMORPG content to single-player game content. In MMORPG's the players take the place of the NPC's. Maybe it is the players who lack passion and dedication to the game, not the developers?
The Dark Queen of Krynn has a special spot in my heart, it is, prolly always will be, the best game ever, SSI where Gods walking Earth.
The Epic battles, the strategies you have to come with, the understand of a whole system.
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal would be my second choice, what it lack in gameplay it catch back in roleplay between NPCs...Planescape is an offspring of that, very nice and will have only nice words from me, but it can't compare to the masterpiece. Fallout are not bad, but also offspring from here (now I heard fanbois bitching nicely because they usually still like the BG fanbois even if they disagree).
The new Bard's Tale was very nice, but it lifespan was so short and the gameplay was sooo repetitive that I doesn't dare put it here.
Oblivion is extremely nice, but by no way a masterpiece and can't claim to compare to those products.
Final Fantasy...I never understand why peoples like them so much, they are better than doing nothing...but that is where my interest stop for them. There are no real decision to do, it is simplified to the extreme...it is not bad...but it is far from even closing on Oblivion.
Phantom Brave and other products of that company are very nice, they deserve to be on the same list than the masterpieces, althought at the bottom of it for many annoying choices, it still is very nice.
Xenosaga was decent...but again, just to kill time.
Neverwinter Nights are merely a ghost of what BGs was...a ghost that entertain me, but a ghost shell nonetheless.
KOTORs games were good, not sure if I can say they were great, but they were definitely at least very good.
Oh...SSI...why did you go? I feel soooo lonely now...I did find Black Isles...but they shun me and join you, not that I blame them...but...I really do feel lonely without you to guys. Hope Bioware will bring back that fire!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
i thought Legend of Dragoon was the best RPG ive played in my life, its for the PS1
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Betrayal at Krondor It's free now, but you'll need DOSBox in order to get it to work right under Windows XP.
Chrono Trigger, of course.
Acient Domains of Mystery This is a fairly new entry into the world of Rogue likes, but it's already gained quite a following. Strangely, I find this game more entertaining than many of the commercial quality games I've played recently....
As far as "Passion" and "Dedication".... It's hard to remain passionate about a project that you've been working 16 hour days for two to five years on. Dedicated? By the final crunch, you wish that the project would get cancelled or a disgruntled employee would just fuckin' shoot you already. Developement times were much shorter in the early to mid 90's. Even RPGs rarely took more than a year and a half to put together. Dev teams were also much smaller, so communication and creative differences weren't as big of a deal.
To talk shop for a minute (my apologies to the professional developers here), there seem to be only two solutions for the current situation. We can take on a production model that is similar to movies, i.e. several smaller companies making specialized content under the direction of a smaller, core production crew. We could also take on more traditional software developement techniques and practices in code production, thus improving the developer's quality of life, cutting down on costly mistakes, and keeping everything on schedule. Or we could do both. We probably won't do either until a couple more years of market shrinkage. The only reason the industry made money last year was because three new systems hit the market. Before that we were losing about 12% a year.
Tahnk you Wakizashi . finaly another point for dragon warrior lol. noone can deny the awesome gameplay for that game. i have one question tho. why are ppl classifying zelda as an rpg?
oh and to add another game that noone else has mentioned yet, aracana for the Snes.
Betrayal at Krondor is richly detailed, with a rather large amount of items, maps, and subquests. In addition, it is almost totally open-ended in places. It also has well developed characters and plot. It stands as one of the true classics of the role-playing genre and some consider it to be the prime example of how a CRPG should be done.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Betrayal At Krondor: "the prime example of how a CRPG should be done"
Since RPGs gave birth to the MMOs I think it is natural for many MMO players to have strong roots in rpgs. To me many times while playing and after playing a RPGs I would think this is great but I dont want it to end - if it could only go on forever and grow my character over time it would be much better.
So games in the Zelda series were awesome and Final Fantasy really opened my eyes to something new as far as RPG game - but when the chance a while later came to take that to a persistant world came a long I could not resist.
But that RPG love did not die and KOTOR filled the void Galaxies could not and many of the RPG D&D games were better than the online versions.
So while I enjoy showing my daughter Zelda, Mario, and Final Fantasy - I would not want to give up my MMOs. And while Baulder's Gate paved the way for the Guild Wars of the world I seem to remember a lot of frustration with those as well.
Just like how I remember EQ - man I miss that game a lot but really it was frustrating as hell too, but I think back to fond memories becuase it was my forst MMO and my best experience.
---MMO EXPERIENCE:--- WoW - 06-2006 to current COV - 40 Corruptor - 10-2005 to 04-2006 COH - 50 Scrapper - 04-2004 to 04-2006 EQ2 - 35 Barb Berserker - 12-2004 to 04-2005 EQ1 - 55 Barb Warrior - 2000, 2001 Tried: DaoC, DDO, Auto Assault, SWG, Lineage II
Comments
1) Planescape: Torment (My all time favorite of any genre)
One of the many amazing things about Torment is that even though it lacks the quintessential element of an RPG (player character creation) I felt more empathy for the main character than any other I have played, even those I lovingly created myself.
Without doubt this is the most immersive single-player RPG Ive ever played.
2) ES3: Morrowind
I loved Daggerfall but oh my the glitches. I tried the demo of Battlespire and passed it up. Finally Bethesda sorted themselves out and brought us the almost perfect Morrowind. This game is so huge and the journies so exhausting that my character would reach a destination and fall into bed for a day or two before reporting to the GuildMaster. If you enjoy feeling every inch of dust on your characters body, this game is a must.
Sidenote: They also did away with the regular trading hours of Daggerfall, whereby you could only purchase from traders during certain hours of the day. I think this was a great decision: after all we'd only be 'cheating' by standing outside pressing the "wait" button, not to mention its a bit silly that a trader will buy your illegal Skooma, but only between the hours of 8am and 6pm. Disappointed to see they brought back regular trading hours with Oblivion.
3) Baldur's Gate 2
And the return of our hero from the original BG.....Minsc "Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes!"
Special mentions also for The Eye of the Beholder series (where it all began for me) and Westwoods Lands of Lore (technically an Action/RPG, but Diablo made it into your cut
) - loved Patrick Stewarts voice so much it turned me onto Next Generation.
1. Betrayal At Krondor
2. Betrayal At Krondor
3. Betrayal At Krondor
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Betrayal At Krondor: "the prime example of how a CRPG should be done"
Well Gameloading already covered it but just to back up what he says, you cannot compare MMO's to single player games.
What were you thinking??!!
I know that single player RPGs and mmorpgs hosting thousands of players are very different styles of games. That's not what I'm trying to ask. What I'm asking is if you honestly think that todays mmorpgs are programmed with the same level of "PASSION" and "DEDICATION TO THE GAME" that so many RPGS of yesteryear were programmed with?
See, I really feel that most mmorpgs are programmed with one thing in mind: Get it out and get it up and get as much $$$ as possible, piss on giving the game world a living, breathing heart & soul for the players to take part of...... -and- so many of our favorite RPGs were programmed from the heart with a passion and desire to give the game world a life and a epic feel.
..I dunno, maybe it's just me.
- Zaxx
Vampire Bloodlines for me.
Reasonably true to the pen and paper system.
Excellently themed.
Great scripting (in particular the dialogue).
And an inspired gameplay in which your choice of character provoked wholly different responses from the world around you.
I played a hideous deformed nosferatu vampire, traveling below the streets in the sewers feeding on rats and terrifying all who looked at me.
My friend played a lesbian disco diva. Chatting up all the chicks and drinking their blood while snogging them.
Great topic, Zaxtor99
I'm such a terribly slow game-player. I still haven't finished Baldur's Gate (!), GTA, or GTA: Vice City! Heck, add Morrowind to that list as well.
Morrowind absolutely blew me away. Not only do you have total freedom to create your own character, but the game is incredibly story-driven and has superb NPCs, dialogue, plot and most of all, a real sense of place. The look, feel and even sound of the game is totally different to anything else on the market. It may be a gritty fantasy game but it is a fantasy game with imagination. As soon as I upgrade my Pc, I'll be installing lots of player mods to stretch out my game-play - given that I've played it a great deal and am nowhere near finishing! Oblivion? I'm still knee-deep in Morrowind.
Single-player RPG gamers are really spoilt for choice. I've heard that Planescape Torment is a very dark, adult, character driven game. It has been on my list for a number of years - once I've finally managed to finish the games listed above. I will also have to look out for Fallout I & II.
Bard's Tale as an RPG? Not really. It was so of it's time i.e. cosmetic RPG elements on top of a basic hack 'n' slash game. I had tremendous fun playing it (and of course, another game that I never finished - but nearly did).
Anyone crusty enough to remember Infocom (Zork et al), Level 9 (Snowball triology) and Magnetic Scrolls?
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
The Bards Tale is much older series that used to have a text only interface. You could buy the data on sudio cassettes that you uploaded into the Apple][ or Texas Instrument computers originally. The sequels added windows and little static pictures of the person you were talking to in the corner of the 4-16 colour screens.
The new "The Bard's Tale" is hack and slash, but that is just another knock off licensing of an old game name.
Adding another game to the list:
"Quest For Glory: So You Want To Be a Hero"
The sequal Trial By Fire was crap though.
I know that single player RPGs and mmorpgs hosting thousands of players are very different styles of games. That's not what I'm trying to ask. What I'm asking is if you honestly think that todays mmorpgs are programmed with the same level of "PASSION" and "DEDICATION TO THE GAME" that so many RPGS of yesteryear were programmed with?
- Zaxx
And can I ask what "in development" MMORPG sites and forums you've visited recently that have made you feel this way?
Being part of a work in progress - even at mostly an observer level but still having input - is extremely exciting and leaves me in no doubt about the level of dedication and passion involved.
And for your viewing pleasure -
Valhyre
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
But I still feel youre expecting too much if you continue to measure MMORPG content to single-player game content. In MMORPG's the players take the place of the NPC's. Maybe it is the players who lack passion and dedication to the game, not the developers?
FallOut 1 and Fallout 2 rocked my soxes. I loved the Madmax like world, storyline and the dark humor of the game.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
The Dark Queen of Krynn has a special spot in my heart, it is, prolly always will be, the best game ever, SSI where Gods walking Earth.
The Epic battles, the strategies you have to come with, the understand of a whole system.
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal would be my second choice, what it lack in gameplay it catch back in roleplay between NPCs...Planescape is an offspring of that, very nice and will have only nice words from me, but it can't compare to the masterpiece. Fallout are not bad, but also offspring from here (now I heard fanbois bitching nicely because they usually still like the BG fanbois even if they disagree).
The new Bard's Tale was very nice, but it lifespan was so short and the gameplay was sooo repetitive that I doesn't dare put it here.
Oblivion is extremely nice, but by no way a masterpiece and can't claim to compare to those products.
Final Fantasy...I never understand why peoples like them so much, they are better than doing nothing...but that is where my interest stop for them. There are no real decision to do, it is simplified to the extreme...it is not bad...but it is far from even closing on Oblivion.
Phantom Brave and other products of that company are very nice, they deserve to be on the same list than the masterpieces, althought at the bottom of it for many annoying choices, it still is very nice.
Xenosaga was decent...but again, just to kill time.
Neverwinter Nights are merely a ghost of what BGs was...a ghost that entertain me, but a ghost shell nonetheless.
KOTORs games were good, not sure if I can say they were great, but they were definitely at least very good.
Oh...SSI...why did you go? I feel soooo lonely now...I did find Black Isles...but they shun me and join you, not that I blame them...but...I really do feel lonely without you to guys. Hope Bioware will bring back that fire!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
My favorite was Dragon Warrior for NES.
Erdrick's Armor!
Betrayal at Krondor It's free now, but you'll need DOSBox in order to get it to work right under Windows XP.
Chrono Trigger, of course.
Acient Domains of Mystery This is a fairly new entry into the world of Rogue likes, but it's already gained quite a following. Strangely, I find this game more entertaining than many of the commercial quality games I've played recently....
As far as "Passion" and "Dedication".... It's hard to remain passionate about a project that you've been working 16 hour days for two to five years on. Dedicated? By the final crunch, you wish that the project would get cancelled or a disgruntled employee would just fuckin' shoot you already. Developement times were much shorter in the early to mid 90's. Even RPGs rarely took more than a year and a half to put together. Dev teams were also much smaller, so communication and creative differences weren't as big of a deal.
To talk shop for a minute (my apologies to the professional developers here), there seem to be only two solutions for the current situation. We can take on a production model that is similar to movies, i.e. several smaller companies making specialized content under the direction of a smaller, core production crew. We could also take on more traditional software developement techniques and practices in code production, thus improving the developer's quality of life, cutting down on costly mistakes, and keeping everything on schedule. Or we could do both. We probably won't do either until a couple more years of market shrinkage. The only reason the industry made money last year was because three new systems hit the market. Before that we were losing about 12% a year.
Tahnk you Wakizashi
. finaly another point for dragon warrior lol. noone can deny the awesome gameplay for that game. i have one question tho. why are ppl classifying zelda as an rpg?
oh and to add another game that noone else has mentioned yet, aracana for the Snes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Betrayal At Krondor: "the prime example of how a CRPG should be done"
Since RPGs gave birth to the MMOs I think it is natural for many MMO players to have strong roots in rpgs. To me many times while playing and after playing a RPGs I would think this is great but I dont want it to end - if it could only go on forever and grow my character over time it would be much better.
So games in the Zelda series were awesome and Final Fantasy really opened my eyes to something new as far as RPG game - but when the chance a while later came to take that to a persistant world came a long I could not resist.
But that RPG love did not die and KOTOR filled the void Galaxies could not and many of the RPG D&D games were better than the online versions.
So while I enjoy showing my daughter Zelda, Mario, and Final Fantasy - I would not want to give up my MMOs. And while Baulder's Gate paved the way for the Guild Wars of the world I seem to remember a lot of frustration with those as well.
Just like how I remember EQ - man I miss that game a lot but really it was frustrating as hell too, but I think back to fond memories becuase it was my forst MMO and my best experience.
---MMO EXPERIENCE:---
WoW - 06-2006 to current
COV - 40 Corruptor - 10-2005 to 04-2006
COH - 50 Scrapper - 04-2004 to 04-2006
EQ2 - 35 Barb Berserker - 12-2004 to 04-2005
EQ1 - 55 Barb Warrior - 2000, 2001
Tried: DaoC, DDO, Auto Assault, SWG, Lineage II
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
i second that, it was the first video game rpg i got into.....i also loved diablo for my first PC game (and what got me into online games)
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Hi! My name is paper. Nerf scissors, rock is fine.
MMORPG = Mostly Men Online Roleplaying Girls
http://www.MichaelLuckhardt.com
the Legacy of Cain(i think thats what it was called) was a sweet rpg as well! i forgot about that one hehe
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Hi! My name is paper. Nerf scissors, rock is fine.
MMORPG = Mostly Men Online Roleplaying Girls
http://www.MichaelLuckhardt.com