Project Gorgon has launched on Steam. Max players so far has been 121 per the Steam Charts. The price is $40, currently $30 on sale. This seems pretty pricey to me, considering the niche nature of the game. What do you guys think? Are they scaring people away with this pricing?
I figured time would tell. What I didn't figure on was that time being one day.
It's better for games to fail and close than for people to play cheap. The entry fee for MMOs needs to go up so people who won't pay for games go leech somewhere else.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
That's only the case because the genre is so crowded that there's no value whatsoever in the base game to be sold anymore. Too much supply, not enough demand to make merely creating an MMORPG to sell to consumers profitable.
I thought of you in my last reply. If we have too much supply a huge factor in that could be because we're including non-paying users in our demographic in ludicrously vain hopes they'll be a revenue converter. They won't be. So more and more non-paying users (players) are flooding the genre so more and more games are made to meet the demand, only there is only demand for free games. The costs soar and paying customers are left with a higher bill.
Get rid of non-paying customers and the industry will self-regulate to the demand that actually generates revenue. What we have now is a ghost bubble. There are huge numbers of gamers, huge numbers of stream watchers, huge numbers all over the place, except for the number and ratio of people paying for them. That isn't growing at the same rate.
So yes, I can see the problem of over saturation and that's created by lowering the entry barrier too far. It needs to be set higher. With the advent of streaming all the free players could watch on Twitch instead of loading down the actual game.
That is the issue in its entirety: a popular product no longer means a profitable one, because the consumer base has been conditioned to expect the entire game without paying the devs anything. Why pay when you can get a comparable experience free? That's caused shockwaves through the genre. Coupled with a false idea that "popularity" means competing with the success of games like MOBAs, and it's not hard to see why investors are running from the genre.
I'd like to see these games sunset so that gamers realize there's value in the game itself, because it's unfair to devs and players who enjoy things like aesthetics to have to subsidize consumers not willing to pay a fair price for the product.
That is the issue in its entirety: a popular product no longer means a profitable one, because the consumer base has been conditioned to expect the entire game without paying the devs anything. Why pay when you can get a comparable experience free? That's caused shockwaves through the genre. Coupled with a false idea that "popularity" means competing with the success of games like MOBAs, and it's not hard to see why investors are running from the genre.
I'd like to see these games sunset so that gamers realize there's value in the game itself, because it's unfair to devs and players who enjoy things like aesthetics to have to subsidize consumers not willing to pay a fair price for the product.
I think the opposite, if a popular product when it comes to MMO's is not profitable then someone is doing something wrong on monetization, the biggest struggle MMO's have is on captivating and retaining that popularity, then the payment models monetize it. Hence why Free to play is such a colossus, it's easier to captivate popularity, grow playerbase, and work on monetizing upon it after they start playing (this is the same for normal online F2P and also mobiles, etc...).
When it comes to "pay the fair price" it's a really complex matter, because a big slice of the strategy does let you play without a price, when you put a price tag, you have heavyweights on competition where big MMO's are free and yours (let's put this one in the case) can't stand in the light of "I could just go and play the free GW2 + expansions for that amount of money!".
Hence why I defend this Indie MMO's with higher price tags or subs, are just going to live in the shadow of those giants and struggle to captivate interest, for some, that may just doom them in the medium-long term.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seem you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with you and your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has moved on and settled on the established norm that is the current standard F2P industry business model employed by the majority of games today. The sooner and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I'd like niche developers to plan for "success" with a realistic vision of what their target demographic can deliver.
That means laying in the lower-end, and if I saw anything from those type of developers, is that they don't see success, yet whiny gamers about the quality of the game leading to a lack of population that leads to their MMO dying out, who doesn't seem to remain on their own smaller niche.
It's unforgiving, heavily competitive industry, many jump high and take the risks and fail, some do succeed, and it goes on, but I wouldn't say it will be the lower-end ones seeing the success.
I played the game on and off for 2 years and I enjoy it to a degree, but the pricetag will hold off many who wish to play, should drop it to a classic number such 14.99 or something.
I just got back into the game after a few years. I received a key for my kickstarter backing.
The game looks better environmentally in certain parts. It's a bit uneven from what I've seen. They have performance/optimization issues. With a bunch of people in an area the FPS drop is noticeable. The UI is significantly better. They've also done a better job of the tutorial (although I'm still a little partial to the cave vs. the island.)
So they improved the functionality of the game (which is huge,) but much of the rest of the game seems very similar to me. I created a new character for the beginning experience. Will play one of my other characters to get a feel of the world at large later and see what's changed.
As far as the price goes, I feel it's a little steep. I think a $30 price tag with a $20 discount would probably sell more units. However can the server even handle a lot of people? From what I've seen so far I would guess no.
It's still a great game in my opinion for those looking for a more traditional open ended MMORPG experience.
I'd like niche developers to plan for "success" with a realistic vision of what their target demographic can deliver.
That's another thing that irks me- we define success unrealisitically in this genre.
WoW is WoW, nothing is going to change that now.
Outside of that title (at least in the west), the genre is a small niche. Chasing headline numbers isn't this genre's bread and butter. It's the unique experience it offers. I'd like to get back to focusing on the unique experience offered.
I'd like niche developers to plan for "success" with a realistic vision of what their target demographic can deliver.
That's another thing that irks me- we define success unrealisitically in this genre.
WoW is WoW, nothing is going to change that now.
Outside of that title (at least in the west), the genre is a small niche. Chasing headline numbers isn't this genre's bread and butter. It's the unique experience it offers. I'd like to get back to focusing on the unique experience offered.
I agree - just more so! The entire genre, east and weat, including WoW is a niche. Games compete with sport, entertainment and other experiences we partake in.
Which makes what @Torval says crucial. The vision has to be realistic. Which - probably - means trying to find a "unique experience" as you say.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I disagree that F2P is adopted by the overwhelming majority. There are certain genres that have largely adopted it out of necessity, but there are other factors that can be changed or altered that would affect that necessity.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
Project Gorgon has launched on Steam. Max players so far has been 121 per the Steam Charts. The price is $40, currently $30 on sale. This seems pretty pricey to me, considering the niche nature of the game. What do you guys think? Are they scaring people away with this pricing?
I figured time would tell. What I didn't figure on was that time being one day.
It's better for games to fail and close than for people to play cheap. The entry fee for MMOs needs to go up so people who won't pay for games go leech somewhere else.
I'd much rather the games provide value for the money they charge. I will pay for games if there is something in the game that appeals to me. That just doesn't include most of the MMORPG games who have taken ideas from 19+ years ago and haven't added any value.
If I didn't have the option to play cheap, I wouldn't have experienced as many games as I have. You think I'm a curmudgeon now, just imagine if I had fewer games to entertain me. Even I'd shudder at that.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I disagree that F2P is adopted by the overwhelming majority. There are certain genres that have largely adopted it out of necessity, but there are other factors that can be changed or altered that would affect that necessity.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
That's a ridiculous assertion. The more resent popular AAA type morpg titles may carry a box price, but go down that mmorpg.com game list and the overwhelming majority of those titles are indeed F2P. To say otherwise is being disingenuous.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I disagree that F2P is adopted by the overwhelming majority. There are certain genres that have largely adopted it out of necessity, but there are other factors that can be changed or altered that would affect that necessity.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
That's a ridiculous assertion. The more resent popular AAA type morpg titles may carry a box price, but go down that mmorpg.com game list and the overwhelming majority of those titles are indeed F2P. To say otherwise is being disingenuous.
I have to assume you skimmed my post. I made a point that certain genres are saturated by it, but by no means has the gaming industry at large jumped ship from box prices to F2P.
And again, that begs the question: what is it about the genres that are saturated with it that makes them that way?
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I disagree that F2P is adopted by the overwhelming majority. There are certain genres that have largely adopted it out of necessity, but there are other factors that can be changed or altered that would affect that necessity.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
If we exclude "eastern" made MMORPGs the F2P numbers drop significantly.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I disagree that F2P is adopted by the overwhelming majority. There are certain genres that have largely adopted it out of necessity, but there are other factors that can be changed or altered that would affect that necessity.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
That's a ridiculous assertion. The more resent popular AAA type morpg titles may carry a box price, but go down that mmorpg.com game list and the overwhelming majority of those titles are indeed F2P. To say otherwise is being disingenuous.
I have to assume you skimmed my post. I made a point that certain genres are saturated by it, but by no means has the gaming industry at large jumped ship from box prices to F2P.
And again, that begs the question: what is it about the genres that are saturated with it that makes them that way?
We are obviously referring to mmorpg type games here. It would be silly to assume I was referring to single player type games and the like.
While I am certainly no fan of "leechers," or F2P games in general, there is a reason why the F2P business model is the predominant operating model for 99% of MMOs on the market today. As alluded to by me in that thread, a gaming population is a valuable limited asset resource for any MMO. Without a gaming population, an MMO simply ceases to exist. Its a difficult dynamic to balance for sure, but so long as your game is garnering a profit, however small, even a majority "leecher" gaming population is not only necessary, but preferable, to a failed business venture.
You, of course, should not have to submit to a F2P model, particularly if your game does not feature a cash shop, but if you don't youed be well advised to structure your business model in a manner that has the potential to "encourage" population growth, Ie., a welcoming free trial introductory offer. The F2P "leecher" presence in MMOs is a necessity that is as valuable, important, and integral to the MMO industry, as the games themselves. Developers/producers who fail to acknowledge this reality are doomed to failure.
I strongly disagree that a large population is necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG. A MMORPG, from a player perspective, only needs a few hundred people at the most. In original MMOs a few hundred is all that played together on most servers.
There needs to be a quality community and it does need to have members. It needs members who are interested in the game, community, and supporting that. It doesn't need filler population that do nothing but take up space and resources. Mass market games need that because they rely on churn and design monetization around that.
Your doom assessment is an empty misleading scare tactic. The only valuable froob to the industry is the revenue converter. For competitive arena games (mobas, battle royale, etc) this is true because of the game scope and revenue style. For MMOs this has turned out to be a big fat lie and a bitter pill that has poisoned our gaming. They add nothing and drain everything to an MMORPG.
If we paying players can't support the genre and business models as it stands then the industry and paying players need to change. What we don't need to do is accomodate or even include non paying users so they feel included too. They're a net negative on the hobby. We don't need them and including them is a significant negative factor in many industry issues.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
I disagree that F2P is adopted by the overwhelming majority. There are certain genres that have largely adopted it out of necessity, but there are other factors that can be changed or altered that would affect that necessity.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
That's a ridiculous assertion. The more resent popular AAA type morpg titles may carry a box price, but go down that mmorpg.com game list and the overwhelming majority of those titles are indeed F2P. To say otherwise is being disingenuous.
I have to assume you skimmed my post. I made a point that certain genres are saturated by it, but by no means has the gaming industry at large jumped ship from box prices to F2P.
And again, that begs the question: what is it about the genres that are saturated with it that makes them that way?
We are obviously referring to mmorpg type games here. It would be silly to assume I was referring to single player type games and the like.
And again, I made the point that there are specific genres, not the entire industry, moving that direction. As such, we should be focusing on what it is about these markets that caused the trend. It isn't simply a zeitgeist level movement, because some genres are almost completely unaffected.
I was hopeful for this game, but I have a bad feeling now. Peak players per Steam Charts: 205. I've seen other niche MMOs get significantly larger player numbers at Steam launch and die off almost completely within a few months to a year. Maybe this one is special, though, and will keep a strong core audience. Hell, I'm playing Gemstone IV, which dates back to 1988 and has a peak population of around 400 these days. Lots of those players are willing to pay a $15 or $50 a month sub.
The game is a very nice idea on paper however a few things.. It looks Indie,will always look Indie and plays like an Indie game. The game has quite a bit of depth/systems but nothing is done really good.Yes i like some idea as they are but i need ideas to go further,i need more populated zones with npc's,i need a castle/fort to look like a fort and not just 4 walls.
Costs in the game are too high,i end up grinding and forgetting what i need.I am not a big fan of buying skills from npc's,a skill should be something you learn and get better at by utilizing that skill. Combat with a multi class system and enough cool abilities to make it seem good enough but it lacks in other areas.Being able to do things and feel like you are the player is not there,as combat feels very handcuffed. I feel the game will never have the population it needs to be a grouping game,so it needs to cater to soloing even though i really don't like soloing in a mmo but for this game is just has to be.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Oh yes,the price..yep too high,it does not look or feel like a full Triple A game,not a full game ..period,so i am sorry to say but 15 bucks is what it is worth.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I thought MMO's need population. This game will never have population at $40. I like the old school vibe of the game but will not pay more than $20 for it.
I thought MMO's need population. This game will never have population at $40. I like the old school vibe of the game but will not pay more than $20 for it.
I think $15-$20 would have been the sweet spot. People on here may appreciate what the game has to offer, but they've got a much broader audience to convince on Steam.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well, its nice to have a PVE sandbox MMO. I keep complaining about every sandbox MMO being a deathmatch PvP clone made for gankers and douchesnoggles who kill their own MMO and be the first ones who would die in a true PvP game requiring true skill (FPS games, EVE Online)
But, I honestly don't see any reason to play this over the Asheron's Call emulator I'm playing on...and both are about equal graphics wise...and AC has a much bigger world with tons more to do and a very huge diablo style loot system with a near infinite amount of items. Tons of dungeons and everything. And...don't have to spend 30-40 dollars to play it lol.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Comments
I'd like to see these games sunset so that gamers realize there's value in the game itself, because it's unfair to devs and players who enjoy things like aesthetics to have to subsidize consumers not willing to pay a fair price for the product.
When it comes to "pay the fair price" it's a really complex matter, because a big slice of the strategy does let you play without a price, when you put a price tag, you have heavyweights on competition where big MMO's are free and yours (let's put this one in the case) can't stand in the light of "I could just go and play the free GW2 + expansions for that amount of money!".
Hence why I defend this Indie MMO's with higher price tags or subs, are just going to live in the shadow of those giants and struggle to captivate interest, for some, that may just doom them in the medium-long term.
Except I never said that a large population was necessary for player enjoyment in an MMORPG.
As it pertains to your third paragraph, it seems you do agree with me as it pertains to MOBAs, battle royale, etc., yet how can you do so in that regard and not realize that the same dynamic that applies to those games, in fact, apply to MMORPGs and the whole MMO industry in general. They are all video games that harbor the same underlying philosophy in the gaming and entertainment industry.
To the extent that you insist on disagreeing with me in your third paragraph, it is transparently apparent that the industry does agree with me, of which with all due respect, the totality of their agreement I value much more than I do yours, or anyone who agrees with your narrow point of view in this thread. There is no denying that the entirety of the industry, with the exception of perhaps the anomalies that are WoW and FFXIV, has wholeheartedly embraced the F2P business model. And they did so for a reason. This evolution did not come about by choice or mistake, mind you, but by necessity. Had their in-depth and professional research not supported my above described point of view, then the state of the MMO industry, of which the F2P business model has become the norm, would not be the overwhelming industry standard business model as it stands today.
You are, of course, entitled to your point of view just as long as you understand that this is all you are entitled to. The change that needs to come is in the minds of the stubborn few who are living in the past and are of the impression that the industry can survive with the niche few still living in the past and their antiquated idea of a business model, and not the entirety of the MMO industry which has evolved and settled on the established norm that is the current industry standard F2P business model, and the model employed by the overwhelming majority of games today. The sooner you and your peers are able to move on to 2018 and understand this fact, the sooner you all will let go of your bitterness toward to the F2P community, and derive greater enjoyment in your gaming hobby going forward.
It's unforgiving, heavily competitive industry, many jump high and take the risks and fail, some do succeed, and it goes on, but I wouldn't say it will be the lower-end ones seeing the success.
The game looks better environmentally in certain parts. It's a bit uneven from what I've seen. They have performance/optimization issues. With a bunch of people in an area the FPS drop is noticeable. The UI is significantly better. They've also done a better job of the tutorial (although I'm still a little partial to the cave vs. the island.)
So they improved the functionality of the game (which is huge,) but much of the rest of the game seems very similar to me. I created a new character for the beginning experience. Will play one of my other characters to get a feel of the world at large later and see what's changed.
As far as the price goes, I feel it's a little steep. I think a $30 price tag with a $20 discount would probably sell more units. However can the server even handle a lot of people? From what I've seen so far I would guess no.
It's still a great game in my opinion for those looking for a more traditional open ended MMORPG experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WoW is WoW, nothing is going to change that now.
Outside of that title (at least in the west), the genre is a small niche. Chasing headline numbers isn't this genre's bread and butter. It's the unique experience it offers. I'd like to get back to focusing on the unique experience offered.
Which makes what @Torval says crucial. The vision has to be realistic. Which - probably - means trying to find a "unique experience" as you say.
Unless we include incomplete titles, box prices are still reigning king in terms of industry popularity.
If I didn't have the option to play cheap, I wouldn't have experienced as many games as I have. You think I'm a curmudgeon now, just imagine if I had fewer games to entertain me. Even I'd shudder at that.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
And again, that begs the question: what is it about the genres that are saturated with it that makes them that way?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It looks Indie,will always look Indie and plays like an Indie game.
The game has quite a bit of depth/systems but nothing is done really good.Yes i like some idea as they are but i need ideas to go further,i need more populated zones with npc's,i need a castle/fort to look like a fort and not just 4 walls.
Costs in the game are too high,i end up grinding and forgetting what i need.I am not a big fan of buying skills from npc's,a skill should be something you learn and get better at by utilizing that skill.
Combat with a multi class system and enough cool abilities to make it seem good enough but it lacks in other areas.Being able to do things and feel like you are the player is not there,as combat feels very handcuffed.
I feel the game will never have the population it needs to be a grouping game,so it needs to cater to soloing even though i really don't like soloing in a mmo but for this game is just has to be.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
But, I honestly don't see any reason to play this over the Asheron's Call emulator I'm playing on...and both are about equal graphics wise...and AC has a much bigger world with tons more to do and a very huge diablo style loot system with a near infinite amount of items. Tons of dungeons and everything. And...don't have to spend 30-40 dollars to play it lol.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul