You could just stop playing action mmos....I know crazy thought.
Done and Done!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I do alright with fast-reaction time games. Not that's it a direct bar of measure, but I average a few gold medals per match in Overwatch, either through objective taking, eliminations, or healing depending upon the hero I'm playing. However, I get my kick of "twitch" style combat from games that are laser-focused on them, such as Overwatch. When I get an urge to do the RPG thing these days, I wanna take a break from that twitch based experience.
The most important thing for me in an MMO is immersion. I find faster paced and particularly combat that has me aiming (even if there is heavy aim assist) far more immersive than tracking the raid leader and clicking on their targets next to their name as you do in standard tab-target combat systems.
I also find that heavy build customization limited hotbars give makes me able to make my character more my own. The more my character feels like my character, the more I connect with it, and the more immersed I become.
"Immersion..." So you run to work? Run to the store? Run to your friend's house? Run to the car to drive somewhere? Run, run, run!
There is no perfect immersion and everyone needs to find their own "acceptables", if they care at all. For me anything that separates my mouse/keyboard from my character's skills/abilities immerses me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Perhaps just make a turn based game have an open world when in combat, that could work right? Wasn't Atlantic online a turn based mmo?
Yes. Wizard101 is also like this, though "open world" is a stretch
In Wizard101, you are "free to run" until you get into a combat duel using a deck of cards with your spells.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I wish I could get back into WOW because they have the most honest and least sleazy monetization system in MMOs these days but I just can't go back to that slow ass, tab target system after having played several MMOs in a row (GW2, ESO and BDO) with more active combat systems.
I think I'm spoiled for life.
I don't think most people realize how much money they have spent on WoW....
Action combat doesn't have to mean everyone just spams damage. I like the Spiral Knights model where, if you don't spend a lot of time running around dodging, then you'll instead spend a lot of time watching your character lay there dead.
I also liked the Guild Wars 1 model where everyone does damage, and the real question is, what else do you do? At least before the PVE-only skills, characters who just did damage and nothing else were pretty terrible.
The critical way to make things other than damage matter is to make a strategy of standing there and blasting away fail. You can have the Guild Wars 1 model where various classes can use weakness, blindness, or wards to generally reduce a lot of damage, and interrupts to block the most powerful of the enemy skills. You can also have a model where you have to stop attacking to move a lot, and just get your hits in when there's an opening rather than standing there to spam attacks. Neither of those require action combat; they could also be done in a strictly turn-based game.
Turn-based games would be a poor fit for moving a lot in the way you describe. Generally, turn-based games are about getting your party into the position where their skills and weapons are most effective while simultaneously avoiding doing the same for the enemy team. You try dipping in and out in a game like XCOM or Wasteland 2, you're just wasting action points. The cover system they use is far superior in my opinion, more appropriate, and more fun. Instead of dipping in and out, it's almost always better to position yourself out of sight for ambush then run to cover after the alpha strike or stay just outside the enemy's range to force them to be the ones to waste action points moving into range.
GW2 still has a large dependency upon conditions and boons, and still includes the interrupts. It doesn't make the 2nd GS skill or the 3rd any more wieldy. It's still just as awkward to watch my Warrior spin uncontrollably past the mob because that's one of the only 5 GS damage skills I have. It doesn't make it any less awkward to try and nail the 2nd skill that requires me to literally stand in place (whoever thought that was a good idea in GW2's action combat system should be fired). My Mesmer's 2nd sword skill is the same thing, and any movement whatsoever cancels the action, but still puts those abilities on cool down. That's a poor decision by ArenaNet likely forced on them because without it doing so, it'd be easy to abuse. And despite the boons and conditions and interrupts, it's still a skill spamfest. In fact, those boons and conditions contribute to the spam, because they stack and you gotta get 'em as high as possible and keep them there to be most effective.
Regarding the dodging, I don't disagree. I think that's a fundamental problem with MMORPG action combat in general. It's a race to subtract to zero. Dodging and blocking in ESO is reserved for AoE/boss alpha strikes and attacks with CC attached, like knockdowns, but that's because those are the only attacks that really pose any kind of actual threat to players. If the mob's not using a few select attacks they will very clearly signal before using, the player is trained to ignore blocking or dodging and instead focus on mashing those skills in the race to subtract the mob's health bar number to zero before they do the same to the player.
An action combat game should include reactive skills based on blocking/parrying/dodging. Skills that provide your largest boons, your heaviest damage, or your longest CC (etc.) should all be part of a counter-attack that's triggered by the defensive moves. Then, combat would see players actively using block/dodge/party because it's integral to their character's combat prowess.
DAoC adopted this in their tab target model way back when. However, there was no active dodge, block, or party. Today, you could build a similar style system and require players actively dodge, block, or party to start it. But we don't see it, so those defensive maneuvers are little more than "Hey, when you see the mob start doing that? Hold block/dodge. Once they're done, just go back to spamming as before." Rarely do we see the combat systems of AAA action combat MMORPGs use dodge and block beyond that. ESO timidly employs a knockdown opportunity if you daze a target with a block/bash, but it's generic to each class and that's the entire extent of it. If I'm fighting more than one mob, it's almost useless because it isn't AoE and I have to wait for the heavy attack to spin up to do it, severely cutting into my DPS when I could be using another Biting Jabs instead to hit both that warrior mob and the healer mob standing behind him healing.
One of the main reasons games like Kingdom Come have such awesome combat systems is because spamming attacks is a fail. You have to use attacks sparingly and focus on positioning, parrying/dodging/blocking, then using those items to find an opening in your opponent's defense. That doesn't mean rolling 10ft on the ground, putting yourself completely out of range of your weapons and having to run back up to the mob after. It means stepping around an attack you see coming to open up an opportunity to attack for yourself against an off-balance opponent.
Really isn't action combat that is the problem, or at least it is entirely possible to create an action combat mmo that respects the rpg OP is missing. Action combat in its current and mostly universal form however, does not..but that is born from a much deeper issue in game design in general. I mean, you can make a wow'ish combat system in a current flavor of mmo game design, and it would fail (at the rpg part) just as hard.
GW2 still has a large dependency upon conditions and boons, and still includes the interrupts. It doesn't make the 2nd GS skill or the 3rd any more wieldy. It's still just as awkward to watch my Warrior spin uncontrollably past the mob because that's one of the only 5 GS damage skills I have. It doesn't make it any less awkward to try and nail the 2nd skill that requires me to literally stand in place (whoever thought that was a good idea in GW2's action combat system should be fired). My Mesmer's 2nd sword skill is the same thing, and any movement whatsoever cancels the action, but still puts those abilities on cool down. That's a poor decision by ArenaNet likely forced on them because without it doing so, it'd be easy to abuse. And despite the boons and conditions and interrupts, it's still a skill spamfest. In fact, those boons and conditions contribute to the spam, because they stack and you gotta get 'em as high as possible and keep them there to be most effective.
More often than not in GW2, the most damaging skill of the weapon is skill #1. Warrior GS #1 skill is not particularly damaging. Skill #2 however is really strong, so strong it requires you to not move. It is a trade off. The question becomes, how will you make sure you land that strong skill. Maybe you knock the enemy first, so it can't flee. Or your team does that for you. The whirlwind does a few things. For example it evades. If you are immobilised or you can aim at an angle against an obstacle like a wall, you will be able to deliver all the blows to the same mobs.
well, yeah, you don't just press a button and the enemy dies, so you need to keep pressing buttons (or auto attacking) while the combat lasts, but as you say, you need to use the skills in the correct order to get those boons and conditions as high as possible which means spamming skills that don't do that an incorrect play.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
GW2 still has a large dependency upon conditions and boons, and still includes the interrupts. It doesn't make the 2nd GS skill or the 3rd any more wieldy. It's still just as awkward to watch my Warrior spin uncontrollably past the mob because that's one of the only 5 GS damage skills I have. It doesn't make it any less awkward to try and nail the 2nd skill that requires me to literally stand in place (whoever thought that was a good idea in GW2's action combat system should be fired). My Mesmer's 2nd sword skill is the same thing, and any movement whatsoever cancels the action, but still puts those abilities on cool down. That's a poor decision by ArenaNet likely forced on them because without it doing so, it'd be easy to abuse. And despite the boons and conditions and interrupts, it's still a skill spamfest. In fact, those boons and conditions contribute to the spam, because they stack and you gotta get 'em as high as possible and keep them there to be most effective.
More often than not in GW2, the most damaging skill of the weapon is skill #1. Warrior GS #1 skill is not particularly damaging. Skill #2 however is really strong, so strong it requires you to not move. It is a trade off. The question becomes, how will you make sure you land that strong skill. Maybe you knock the enemy first, so it can't flee. Or your team does that for you. The whirlwind does a few things. For example it evades. If you are immobilised or you can aim at an angle against an obstacle like a wall, you will be able to deliver all the blows to the same mobs.
well, yeah, you don't just press a button and the enemy dies, so you need to keep pressing buttons (or auto attacking) while the combat lasts, but as you say, you need to use the skills in the correct order to get those boons and conditions as high as possible which means spamming skills that don't do that an incorrect play.
In a game where mobility is so key, having an ability require you to stand completely still for a few seconds is just a poor fit. At least the Mesmer is immune to damage for the duration of their 2nd skill.
During my time playing a Warrior, the 3rd skill was used for nothing but evasion, because it wasn't effective enough on its own merits to be worth using it offensively. An attack that's relegated to defense.
And the "correct order" isn't tactical. A chimp can memorize a series of button presses. Rotations in general are anathema to anyone who enjoys tactical combat. It almost always completely ignores what the enemy is doing. If the enemy is doing something to interrupt you, it's merely a matter of blocking or dodging then launching right back into that same rotation. That's not tactical.
Tactical is feinting an attack and executing another to catch your opponent off-guard. It's following up on a mistake of the opponent who overcommits or telegraphs their next attack, using their mistake to make them pay dearly. It's adapting one's actions directly to the enemy they're fighting. Rotations ignore all of that.
EDIT- one simple way to change the whirlwind skill to make it much more usable and enjoyable would be to have an option to trigger it a second time at any point during the dash, stopping the player there and doing an extra burst of PBAoE. It would then fit MUCH better into the mobility-laden combat system of GW2 and could also reliably be used as an initiator on groups of mobs.
On an unrelated topic: I do enjoy my MotoZ in general, but I've never seen a worse auto-correct system on any smartphone, ever.
GW2 still has a large dependency upon conditions and boons, and still includes the interrupts. It doesn't make the 2nd GS skill or the 3rd any more wieldy. It's still just as awkward to watch my Warrior spin uncontrollably past the mob because that's one of the only 5 GS damage skills I have. It doesn't make it any less awkward to try and nail the 2nd skill that requires me to literally stand in place (whoever thought that was a good idea in GW2's action combat system should be fired). My Mesmer's 2nd sword skill is the same thing, and any movement whatsoever cancels the action, but still puts those abilities on cool down. That's a poor decision by ArenaNet likely forced on them because without it doing so, it'd be easy to abuse. And despite the boons and conditions and interrupts, it's still a skill spamfest. In fact, those boons and conditions contribute to the spam, because they stack and you gotta get 'em as high as possible and keep them there to be most effective.
More often than not in GW2, the most damaging skill of the weapon is skill #1. Warrior GS #1 skill is not particularly damaging. Skill #2 however is really strong, so strong it requires you to not move. It is a trade off. The question becomes, how will you make sure you land that strong skill. Maybe you knock the enemy first, so it can't flee. Or your team does that for you. The whirlwind does a few things. For example it evades. If you are immobilised or you can aim at an angle against an obstacle like a wall, you will be able to deliver all the blows to the same mobs.
well, yeah, you don't just press a button and the enemy dies, so you need to keep pressing buttons (or auto attacking) while the combat lasts, but as you say, you need to use the skills in the correct order to get those boons and conditions as high as possible which means spamming skills that don't do that an incorrect play.
In a game where mobility is so key, having an ability require you to stand completely still for a few seconds is just a poor fit. At least the Mesmer is immune to damage for the duration of their 2nd skill.
During my time playing a Warrior, the 3rd skill was used for nothing but evasion, because it wasn't effective enough on its own merits to be worth using it offensively. An attack that's relegated to defense.
And the "correct order" isn't tactical. A chimp can memorize a series of button presses. Rotations in general are anathema to anyone who enjoys tactical combat. It almost always completely ignores what the enemy is doing. If the enemy is doing something to interrupt you, it's merely a matter of blocking or dodging then launching right back into that same rotation. That's not tactical.
Tactical is feinting an attack and executing another to catch your opponent off-guard. It's following up on a mistake of the opponent who overcommits or telegraphs their next attack, using their mistake to make them pay dearly. It's adapting one's actions directly to the enemy they're fighting. Rotations ignore all of that.
EDIT- one simple way to change the whirlwind skill to make it much more usable and enjoyable would be to have an option to trigger it a second time at any point during the dash, stopping the player there and doing an extra burst of PBAoE. It would then fit MUCH better into the mobility-laden combat system of GW2 and could also reliably be used as an initiator on groups of mobs.
On an unrelated topic: I do enjoy my MotoZ in general, but I've never seen a worse auto-correct system on any smartphone, ever.
So you want tactical use but
a) don't want a skill where you need to read the environment to know when to use it because you either have to stop or cancel the skill to move (you can cancel the 100blades animation by just moving).
b) The whirlwind was one of the highest damage skills in organised 5 man dungeons, so much so elementalists brought fiery great sword to use fiery whirl. It just requires the team to create an appropriate tactical situation.
It is also used as an evasion if the situation demands it. In PvP it is used to quickly engage an enemy, to punish them if they immobilise you and to make them waste their resources by evading.
c) Again you have to execute a rotation and when the tactical situation occurs, you need to do something else.
It seems to me you just don't like the warrior greatsword playstyle. Maybe you would prefer the Reaper greatsword , which is a much more offensive/in your face weapon.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
GW2 still has a large dependency upon conditions and boons, and still includes the interrupts. It doesn't make the 2nd GS skill or the 3rd any more wieldy. It's still just as awkward to watch my Warrior spin uncontrollably past the mob because that's one of the only 5 GS damage skills I have. It doesn't make it any less awkward to try and nail the 2nd skill that requires me to literally stand in place (whoever thought that was a good idea in GW2's action combat system should be fired). My Mesmer's 2nd sword skill is the same thing, and any movement whatsoever cancels the action, but still puts those abilities on cool down. That's a poor decision by ArenaNet likely forced on them because without it doing so, it'd be easy to abuse. And despite the boons and conditions and interrupts, it's still a skill spamfest. In fact, those boons and conditions contribute to the spam, because they stack and you gotta get 'em as high as possible and keep them there to be most effective.
More often than not in GW2, the most damaging skill of the weapon is skill #1. Warrior GS #1 skill is not particularly damaging. Skill #2 however is really strong, so strong it requires you to not move. It is a trade off. The question becomes, how will you make sure you land that strong skill. Maybe you knock the enemy first, so it can't flee. Or your team does that for you. The whirlwind does a few things. For example it evades. If you are immobilised or you can aim at an angle against an obstacle like a wall, you will be able to deliver all the blows to the same mobs.
well, yeah, you don't just press a button and the enemy dies, so you need to keep pressing buttons (or auto attacking) while the combat lasts, but as you say, you need to use the skills in the correct order to get those boons and conditions as high as possible which means spamming skills that don't do that an incorrect play.
In a game where mobility is so key, having an ability require you to stand completely still for a few seconds is just a poor fit. At least the Mesmer is immune to damage for the duration of their 2nd skill.
During my time playing a Warrior, the 3rd skill was used for nothing but evasion, because it wasn't effective enough on its own merits to be worth using it offensively. An attack that's relegated to defense.
And the "correct order" isn't tactical. A chimp can memorize a series of button presses. Rotations in general are anathema to anyone who enjoys tactical combat. It almost always completely ignores what the enemy is doing. If the enemy is doing something to interrupt you, it's merely a matter of blocking or dodging then launching right back into that same rotation. That's not tactical.
Tactical is feinting an attack and executing another to catch your opponent off-guard. It's following up on a mistake of the opponent who overcommits or telegraphs their next attack, using their mistake to make them pay dearly. It's adapting one's actions directly to the enemy they're fighting. Rotations ignore all of that.
EDIT- one simple way to change the whirlwind skill to make it much more usable and enjoyable would be to have an option to trigger it a second time at any point during the dash, stopping the player there and doing an extra burst of PBAoE. It would then fit MUCH better into the mobility-laden combat system of GW2 and could also reliably be used as an initiator on groups of mobs.
On an unrelated topic: I do enjoy my MotoZ in general, but I've never seen a worse auto-correct system on any smartphone, ever.
So you want tactical use but
a) don't want a skill where you need to read the environment to know when to use it because you either have to stop or cancel the skill to move (you can cancel the 100blades animation by just moving).
b) The whirlwind was one of the highest damage skills in organised 5 man dungeons, so much so elementalists brought fiery great sword to use fiery whirl. It just requires the team to create an appropriate tactical situation.
It is also used as an evasion if the situation demands it. In PvP it is used to quickly engage an enemy, to punish them if they immobilise you and to make them waste their resources by evading.
c) Again you have to execute a rotation and when the tactical situation occurs, you need to do something else.
It seems to me you just don't like the warrior greatsword playstyle. Maybe you would prefer the Reaper greatsword , which is a much more offensive/in your face weapon.
I don't like it because it has two skills that are on the extreme ends of the spectrum. They're unwieldy. Overcoming unwieldy skills isn't what I would call awesome tactical combat.
Not to mention, ArenaNet changed that skill precisely because it was too much. Bringing it's damage more in line with other skills has destroyed its place in the Ele rotation because... It's unwieldy. Without OP damage compared to the other skills, it's not a great skill in general. That's a trend with poorly implemented skills. Either you give them something ridiculous to make it worth it, or the skills fall to the wayside.
EDIT- For another example of how devs ignorantly try and make poorly designed skills work is Doomfist in Overwatch. He can one-shot almost any character in the game, but he's rarely used even with that power because his skills, quite frankly, suck in the context of a hero shooter.
"Immersion..." So you run to work? Run to the store? Run to your friend's house? Run to the car to drive somewhere? Run, run, run!
There is no perfect immersion and everyone needs to find their own "acceptables", if they care at all. For me anything that separates my mouse/keyboard from my character's skills/abilities immerses me
We have the exact opposite desires from a game then. If I wanted to be separated from my character I would read a book or watch a movie.
Playing a game to me is about controlling an avatar. A representation of myself or at least aspects of myself in another world. If I could brainjack into the game and use my real physical capabilities I would.
That being impossible at this point I enjoy having my character guided by my mental capabilities and being given as much direct control over their actions as possible.
I don't like it because it has two skills that are on the extreme ends of the spectrum. They're unwieldy. Overcoming unwieldy skills isn't what I would call awesome tactical combat.
You see unwieldy. Other people will see skills that require preparation and/or team work. They are certainly situational if one uses them on recharge.
Anyway in PvE it isn't as if the mobs run way from 100blades. In PvP it requires skill to land 100blades and if you land it there is a good chance the opponent is dead.
They certainly work differently from most other skills but they are just "unwieldy" by comparison. Channelling skills isn't something new or even uncommon in RPGs and again you can break the channelling by just moving, you aren't rooted in position until the end.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I don't like it because it has two skills that are on the extreme ends of the spectrum. They're unwieldy. Overcoming unwieldy skills isn't what I would call awesome tactical combat.
You see unwieldy. Other people will see skills that require preparation and/or team work. They are certainly situational if one uses them on recharge.
Anyway in PvE it isn't as if the mobs run way from 100blades. In PvP it requires skill to land 100blades and if you land it there is a good chance the opponent is dead.
They certainly work differently from most other skills but they are just "unwieldy" by comparison. Channelling skills isn't something new or even uncommon in RPGs and again you can break the channelling by just moving, you aren't rooted in position until the end.
You can, and it throws the skill on cooldown.
Unwieldy by comparison is still unwieldy. Everything is generally relative, because if the same effect you were going for with GS can be accomplished with another skill set without that unwieldy skill, the other skill set is objectively superior. Going back to my Overwatch example, that's exactly the reason Doomfist is in the position he is. Everything he does as a DPS can be done more easily and, many times, more effectively by another kit. His pick rate reflects this. Considering his skills, even when they hit, put him in incredibly shitty positions, I have my doubts he'll ever find an effective niche in Overwatch.
"Immersion..." So you run to work? Run to the store? Run to your friend's house? Run to the car to drive somewhere? Run, run, run!
There is no perfect immersion and everyone needs to find their own "acceptables", if they care at all. For me anything that separates my mouse/keyboard from my character's skills/abilities immerses me
We have the exact opposite desires from a game then. If I wanted to be separated from my character I would read a book or watch a movie.
Playing a game to me is about controlling an avatar. A representation of myself or at least aspects of myself in another world. If I could brainjack into the game and use my real physical capabilities I would.
That being impossible at this point I enjoy having my character guided by my mental capabilities and being given as much direct control over their actions as possible.
Yes, and your desires seem "more popular" among gamers. And "some of me" bleeds into my characters, too, but that is mental (like morality or philosophy), not physical.
What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Yes, and your desires seem "more popular" among gamers. And "some of me" bleeds into my characters, too, but that is mental (like morality or philosophy), not physical.
What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
I find the entire concept my character is some amazing and exceptional individual breaks immersion for me in an MMO anyway. "40 amazing, exceptional, individuals come together and struggle to take down a single boss." "An amazing, exceptional individual has the rank of recruit in the guild they belong to." "An amazing, exceptional individual asks for help in figuring out how their skill works."
I really prefer the backstory for an MMO character to be very open ended / something I come up with myself, and let my actions in the game determine if I am just some random joe or actually do prove myself to be amazing and exceptional.
Because the greatest story about any of my characters is the story of a man who started a war with the largest group in the game with only 2 other pilots at his side, achieved success and had allies rally around him, and eventually defeated them. Later he made allies of his former enemies and built the strongest alliance the galaxy had ever seen.
Of course that wasn't scripted. That's what I actually did on my Freelancer server.
Really looking forward to seeing how CU implements its tab-targeting system.
The way they described the skill building system sounds intriguing, if they can put some tactical depth into the combat system despite it being tab-target based it could be gold. I haven't really seen anything yet on that front though so I might end up like that Bless streamer ;(
Yes, and your desires seem "more popular" among gamers. And "some of me" bleeds into my characters, too, but that is mental (like morality or philosophy), not physical.
What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
I find the entire concept my character is some amazing and exceptional individual breaks immersion for me in an MMO anyway. "40 amazing, exceptional, individuals come together and struggle to take down a single boss." "An amazing, exceptional individual has the rank of recruit in the guild they belong to." "An amazing, exceptional individual asks for help in figuring out how their skill works."
I really prefer the backstory for an MMO character to be very open ended / something I come up with myself, and let my actions in the game determine if I am just some random joe or actually do prove myself to be amazing and exceptional.
Because the greatest story about any of my characters is the story of a man who started a war with the largest group in the game with only 2 other pilots at his side, achieved success and had allies rally around him, and eventually defeated them. Later he made allies of his former enemies and built the strongest alliance the galaxy had ever seen.
Of course that wasn't scripted. That's what I actually did on my Freelancer server.
How does "amazing & exceptional" differ between you in the game and your character in the game? Didn't you say earlier that you made characters just like your real life self, or as close as possible? Either way, the game plays the same, right? You (in the game) also runs with 40 other people to beat up some boss, just like some character does, yes?
I'm not seeing the connection, or is this an expansion on "immersion?"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think action combat can get tiring after smashing combos and buttons for 50 levels plus alts.
I think I enjoy a combination. Though I wish combat was more reactive than just doing a rotation.
It certainly can but just because it is action combat doesn't mean it have to be that way. We seen plenty of skill rotation in trinity based combat as well after all.
Good MMO combat should require you to use the right skill at the right time, trinity or action combat. Just spamming your skill in the same order over and over is stupid, repetetive and get's old fast.
Just because combat is faster, have dodging or force you to aim doesn't mean it shouldn't require you to use your brain. Yes, speed and strenght is important in combat but so is using your brain.
It isn't even the number of attack skills that matters, I seen plenty of games with tons of skills that people just rotate anyways. And if you always use the same rotation you are basically just doing a single long attack, no matter if it forces you to click 30 buttons to do it.
MMO combat should be about outsmarting your opponent, you feint, parry and attack to either react to what the opponent do or to force him to react to what you do.
I think action combat can get tiring after smashing combos and buttons for 50 levels plus alts.
I think I enjoy a combination. Though I wish combat was more reactive than just doing a rotation.
It certainly can but just because it is action combat doesn't mean it have to be that way. We seen plenty of skill rotation in trinity based combat as well after all.
Good MMO combat should require you to use the right skill at the right time, trinity or action combat. Just spamming your skill in the same order over and over is stupid, repetetive and get's old fast.
Just because combat is faster, have dodging or force you to aim doesn't mean it shouldn't require you to use your brain. Yes, speed and strenght is important in combat but so is using your brain.
It isn't even the number of attack skills that matters, I seen plenty of games with tons of skills that people just rotate anyways. And if you always use the same rotation you are basically just doing a single long attack, no matter if it forces you to click 30 buttons to do it.
MMO combat should be about outsmarting your opponent, you feint, parry and attack to either react to what the opponent do or to force him to react to what you do.
I agree, but "prefer" that my character do that instead of me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Jumping/dodging constantly are one of the least desired things I want in a MMO.
It depends, if you play a class building on avoiding attacks with high mobility and little armor that is fine in my book. When my full plated knight have to do it all the time on the other hand it is just silly, I do have that large shield and impressive armor for other things then just looks.
And while plate armor isn't as hard to move in as most people think, running around in it like a rodeo clown in combat seems rather insane to me, not to mention exhausting. A cat burglar or acrobat should not feel the same way playing as a knight or landsknecht.
Many action combat based games miss that point which is too bad. Otherwise, if you don't enjoy running around dodging you pick a class that doesn't do that so much.
Jumping/dodging constantly are one of the least desired things I want in a MMO.
If by jumping you mean the annoying bunny hopping some players do when PVPing, yeah it's annoying. Funny thing though, that happens just as much if not more in MMOS that are not action.
And active dodging in action MMOs is highly situational and by no means something you want to do all the time: quite often just stepping back or to the side of incoming damage is much more effective since you can continue to do damage yourself with ranged abilities and it's also not needed for puny attacks from trash that you know you can take just fine.
I have seen some people dodge and run constantly in action MMOS but that's usually just the ones who don't know what they're doing.
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I would like a new MMORPG to be made and released with some good features. It amazes me that we are having discussions about anything other than the fact that the genre is completely dead. I'm thankful for GW2 still developing and ESO kinda sorta developing...but complaining about the type of combat in the MMORPGS's (not being released) is pointless.
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
There is no perfect immersion and everyone needs to find their own "acceptables", if they care at all. For me anything that separates my mouse/keyboard from my character's skills/abilities immerses me
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
In Wizard101, you are "free to run" until you get into a combat duel using a deck of cards with your spells.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
GW2 still has a large dependency upon conditions and boons, and still includes the interrupts. It doesn't make the 2nd GS skill or the 3rd any more wieldy. It's still just as awkward to watch my Warrior spin uncontrollably past the mob because that's one of the only 5 GS damage skills I have. It doesn't make it any less awkward to try and nail the 2nd skill that requires me to literally stand in place (whoever thought that was a good idea in GW2's action combat system should be fired). My Mesmer's 2nd sword skill is the same thing, and any movement whatsoever cancels the action, but still puts those abilities on cool down. That's a poor decision by ArenaNet likely forced on them because without it doing so, it'd be easy to abuse. And despite the boons and conditions and interrupts, it's still a skill spamfest. In fact, those boons and conditions contribute to the spam, because they stack and you gotta get 'em as high as possible and keep them there to be most effective.
Regarding the dodging, I don't disagree. I think that's a fundamental problem with MMORPG action combat in general. It's a race to subtract to zero. Dodging and blocking in ESO is reserved for AoE/boss alpha strikes and attacks with CC attached, like knockdowns, but that's because those are the only attacks that really pose any kind of actual threat to players. If the mob's not using a few select attacks they will very clearly signal before using, the player is trained to ignore blocking or dodging and instead focus on mashing those skills in the race to subtract the mob's health bar number to zero before they do the same to the player.
An action combat game should include reactive skills based on blocking/parrying/dodging. Skills that provide your largest boons, your heaviest damage, or your longest CC (etc.) should all be part of a counter-attack that's triggered by the defensive moves. Then, combat would see players actively using block/dodge/party because it's integral to their character's combat prowess.
DAoC adopted this in their tab target model way back when. However, there was no active dodge, block, or party. Today, you could build a similar style system and require players actively dodge, block, or party to start it. But we don't see it, so those defensive maneuvers are little more than "Hey, when you see the mob start doing that? Hold block/dodge. Once they're done, just go back to spamming as before." Rarely do we see the combat systems of AAA action combat MMORPGs use dodge and block beyond that. ESO timidly employs a knockdown opportunity if you daze a target with a block/bash, but it's generic to each class and that's the entire extent of it. If I'm fighting more than one mob, it's almost useless because it isn't AoE and I have to wait for the heavy attack to spin up to do it, severely cutting into my DPS when I could be using another Biting Jabs instead to hit both that warrior mob and the healer mob standing behind him healing.
One of the main reasons games like Kingdom Come have such awesome combat systems is because spamming attacks is a fail. You have to use attacks sparingly and focus on positioning, parrying/dodging/blocking, then using those items to find an opening in your opponent's defense. That doesn't mean rolling 10ft on the ground, putting yourself completely out of range of your weapons and having to run back up to the mob after. It means stepping around an attack you see coming to open up an opportunity to attack for yourself against an off-balance opponent.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Warrior GS #1 skill is not particularly damaging. Skill #2 however is really strong, so strong it requires you to not move. It is a trade off. The question becomes, how will you make sure you land that strong skill. Maybe you knock the enemy first, so it can't flee. Or your team does that for you.
The whirlwind does a few things. For example it evades. If you are immobilised or you can aim at an angle against an obstacle like a wall, you will be able to deliver all the blows to the same mobs.
well, yeah, you don't just press a button and the enemy dies, so you need to keep pressing buttons (or auto attacking) while the combat lasts, but as you say, you need to use the skills in the correct order to get those boons and conditions as high as possible which means spamming skills that don't do that an incorrect play.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
During my time playing a Warrior, the 3rd skill was used for nothing but evasion, because it wasn't effective enough on its own merits to be worth using it offensively. An attack that's relegated to defense.
And the "correct order" isn't tactical. A chimp can memorize a series of button presses. Rotations in general are anathema to anyone who enjoys tactical combat. It almost always completely ignores what the enemy is doing. If the enemy is doing something to interrupt you, it's merely a matter of blocking or dodging then launching right back into that same rotation. That's not tactical.
Tactical is feinting an attack and executing another to catch your opponent off-guard. It's following up on a mistake of the opponent who overcommits or telegraphs their next attack, using their mistake to make them pay dearly. It's adapting one's actions directly to the enemy they're fighting. Rotations ignore all of that.
EDIT- one simple way to change the whirlwind skill to make it much more usable and enjoyable would be to have an option to trigger it a second time at any point during the dash, stopping the player there and doing an extra burst of PBAoE. It would then fit MUCH better into the mobility-laden combat system of GW2 and could also reliably be used as an initiator on groups of mobs.
On an unrelated topic: I do enjoy my MotoZ in general, but I've never seen a worse auto-correct system on any smartphone, ever.
a) don't want a skill where you need to read the environment to know when to use it because you either have to stop or cancel the skill to move (you can cancel the 100blades animation by just moving).
b) The whirlwind was one of the highest damage skills in organised 5 man dungeons, so much so elementalists brought fiery great sword to use fiery whirl. It just requires the team to create an appropriate tactical situation.
It is also used as an evasion if the situation demands it. In PvP it is used to quickly engage an enemy, to punish them if they immobilise you and to make them waste their resources by evading.
c) Again you have to execute a rotation and when the tactical situation occurs, you need to do something else.
It seems to me you just don't like the warrior greatsword playstyle. Maybe you would prefer the Reaper greatsword , which is a much more offensive/in your face weapon.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
EDIT- For another example of how devs ignorantly try and make poorly designed skills work is Doomfist in Overwatch. He can one-shot almost any character in the game, but he's rarely used even with that power because his skills, quite frankly, suck in the context of a hero shooter.
Playing a game to me is about controlling an avatar. A representation of myself or at least aspects of myself in another world. If I could brainjack into the game and use my real physical capabilities I would.
That being impossible at this point I enjoy having my character guided by my mental capabilities and being given as much direct control over their actions as possible.
They are certainly situational if one uses them on recharge.
Anyway in PvE it isn't as if the mobs run way from 100blades. In PvP it requires skill to land 100blades and if you land it there is a good chance the opponent is dead.
They certainly work differently from most other skills but they are just "unwieldy" by comparison. Channelling skills isn't something new or even uncommon in RPGs and again you can break the channelling by just moving, you aren't rooted in position until the end.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Unwieldy by comparison is still unwieldy. Everything is generally relative, because if the same effect you were going for with GS can be accomplished with another skill set without that unwieldy skill, the other skill set is objectively superior. Going back to my Overwatch example, that's exactly the reason Doomfist is in the position he is. Everything he does as a DPS can be done more easily and, many times, more effectively by another kit. His pick rate reflects this. Considering his skills, even when they hit, put him in incredibly shitty positions, I have my doubts he'll ever find an effective niche in Overwatch.
I think I enjoy a combination. Though I wish combat was more reactive than just doing a rotation.
What breaks my immersion is when my supposedly master-skilled character messes up that skill repeatedly due to my ineptness. Some master they are
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I really prefer the backstory for an MMO character to be very open ended / something I come up with myself, and let my actions in the game determine if I am just some random joe or actually do prove myself to be amazing and exceptional.
Because the greatest story about any of my characters is the story of a man who started a war with the largest group in the game with only 2 other pilots at his side, achieved success and had allies rally around him, and eventually defeated them. Later he made allies of his former enemies and built the strongest alliance the galaxy had ever seen.
Of course that wasn't scripted. That's what I actually did on my Freelancer server.
The way they described the skill building system sounds intriguing, if they can put some tactical depth into the combat system despite it being tab-target based it could be gold. I haven't really seen anything yet on that front though so I might end up like that Bless streamer ;(
I'm not seeing the connection, or is this an expansion on "immersion?"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Good MMO combat should require you to use the right skill at the right time, trinity or action combat. Just spamming your skill in the same order over and over is stupid, repetetive and get's old fast.
Just because combat is faster, have dodging or force you to aim doesn't mean it shouldn't require you to use your brain. Yes, speed and strenght is important in combat but so is using your brain.
It isn't even the number of attack skills that matters, I seen plenty of games with tons of skills that people just rotate anyways. And if you always use the same rotation you are basically just doing a single long attack, no matter if it forces you to click 30 buttons to do it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And while plate armor isn't as hard to move in as most people think, running around in it like a rodeo clown in combat seems rather insane to me, not to mention exhausting. A cat burglar or acrobat should not feel the same way playing as a knight or landsknecht.
Many action combat based games miss that point which is too bad. Otherwise, if you don't enjoy running around dodging you pick a class that doesn't do that so much.
And active dodging in action MMOs is highly situational and by no means something you want to do all the time: quite often just stepping back or to the side of incoming damage is much more effective since you can continue to do damage yourself with ranged abilities and it's also not needed for puny attacks from trash that you know you can take just fine.
I have seen some people dodge and run constantly in action MMOS but that's usually just the ones who don't know what they're doing.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED