Originally posted by untale > paranoia Correct me if I'm wrong but you won't nerf yourself by turning off your map. You don't want other players to have a map which would in effect nerf everyone. But if everyone is nerfed, no one is nerfed. But if everyone has a map no one is nerfed either. Since no one will be nerfed either way, might as well have robust map features.
Sure, I correct you.. you are wrong. You are twisting what I said. If the game was originally designed to contain a detailed map then there's nothing I can do, the map is just there and I am not going to nerf myself while everybody around me is using it. IF the game was designed without maps, then nobody has a map and nobody is nerfed. We are just talking about a game with no maps.
To let you understand better I'm now just going to replace X-ray with maps on what you said.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you won't nerf yourself by turning off your your X-rays. You don't want other players to have X-rays which would in effect nerf everyone. But if everyone is nerfed, no one is nerfed. But if everyone has a map no one is nerfed either. Since no one will be nerfed either way, might as well have robust X-ray features.
See my point?
There 2 critiques I am compelled to make about your reply.
1. you essentially said what I said but in different words..."If the game was originally designed to contain a detailed map then there's nothing I can do, the map is just there and I am not going to nerf myself while everybody around me is using it. IF the game was designed without maps, then nobody has a map and nobody is nerfed. We are just talking about a game with no maps." that's what I said...just different words. dare I say...TwIsTeD words. My point still remains undebunked. Not so much because I'm right per se, but because there is no right or wrong on this particular issue. It's as subjective as liking the flavor of oranges over the flavor of frosted flakes.
2. As far as your x-ray comments? Strawman fallacy.
It's really not a right or wrong issue. It's a preference issue. If I had my way I'd make them have a special server for RP folks that don't want a map. It's a good option idea for those who would rather do without. My guess is that such an option would be so unpopular that there wouldn't be enough players using it to justify it's upkeep versus that fully loaded radar and "x-ray" version. I could be wrong about that but I think a server catering to that style would be a good idea and would allow us map/radar/x-ray lovers to navigate to our hearts content on the "normal" servers.
>I beleive the original poster has realized that his idea isn't as popular as he thought it would be, and is now scrambling to prove that it is the best.
What the..? o_O I'm just providing my point of view in all honesty, you seem to take it like an insult. Please. I don't have to post popular ideas, I post what I think and listen to the ideas coming from others. We are here to discuss ideas, I think.
TO paranoia
Wait just a moment. Now please, read again my last post and try to do it with serenity and without prejudices. You'll notice that I'm not twisting words. What I say is that if the game is thought from the beginning with no detailed maps, then nobody is getting nerfed and this is the exact same thing in a game with maps. The X-ray example was put there to make it clearer: you don't need X-rays, still having it would make you more powerful and the game much easier.
I hope you don't keep thinking I'm being hypocrite. I like to talk with serenity.
EDIT: I want to say it again in other words, maybe my poor english skills are making me hard to understand. I was criticizing your saying that I'm claiming to nerf all the players because I don't want to nerf myself. Nerfing myself in a game with maps is not comparable to "nerfing everybody in a game with no maps".
If the game has maps, the game was thought to have them of course and I would be nerfing myself not using them.
If the game has no maps, nobody is nerfed. It just doesn't have maps! You can't say that -> I <- am nerfing everybody, it's the game that has no maps.
We are used to medieval MMOGs and when we talk about MMOGs we almost always imagine a medieval world. I like immersive games and that's why I don't like detailed maps and radars, they are immersion-killers (okay, that's me). And I'm not the only one here.
But, as I already said in this thread, there isn't a "right" way to play or create a MMOG. I want immersive and long games, different players want fast and easy fun. Nothing is wrong in it. My view is that maps in medieval MMOGs are one excessive thing, your view is different.
I came to know 3 days ago that EVE Online is freely downloadable and playable for 15 days. I'm falling in love with that game and I think I will be playing nothing else for some years. And guess what? This game got a super detailed map. No fog of war, just a plain map which lets you know everything (still the galaxy is HUGE). But I LOVE this in EVE. Why? Because of the setting. Here these kind of things don't kill immersion.
Originally posted by remyburke I played EQ1 during a time when they didn't have in-game maps, yet I knew my way around. Not by looking at a map mind you, but learning the layout of each zone and using landmarks to navigate the zones. Maps are NOT needed, they are a crutch. Burn the maps!!! And for crying out loud...no radars. I mean, what's next, get a GM to hold your hand around the game so you don't get lost?
I agree . It wasn't too hard to do after you learned basic places. Made it feel more realistic to me. I wouldn't mins seeing the crutches go away. Or at least an option not to use them. I think that was part of what drew me into EQ. If you wanted to find something, you either followed someone or explored. You never knew what was on the other side of the hill. There were no big beams of light showing you were to go.
Originally posted by untale I'm going back IT now.
We are used to medieval MMOGs and when we talk about MMOGs we almost always imagine a medieval world. I like immersive games and that's why I don't like detailed maps and radars, they are immersion-killers (okay, that's me). And I'm not the only one here.
But, as I already said in this thread, there isn't a "right" way to play or create a MMOG. I want immersive and long games, different players want fast and easy fun. Nothing is wrong in it. My view is that maps in medieval MMOGs are one excessive thing, your view is different.
I came to know 3 days ago that EVE Online is freely downloadable and playable for 15 days. I'm falling in love with that game and I think I will be playing nothing else for some years. And guess what? This game got a super detailed map. No fog of war, just a plain map which lets you know everything (still the galaxy is HUGE). But I LOVE this in EVE. Why? Because of the setting. Here these kind of things don't kill immersion.
I don't know if this has been asked before, but were their not maps in the 'Fantasy' era? Just put an option to disable it, or make your mini-map super small so you can't see it. No use wanting to hinder other people.
It wont get taken out, in fact it would piss a huge population off if it did. It's almost as if it is like the 'perma-death' system. It has such a small, cult-like followers that if a company is truely to go after it, it will ultimately fail in the end.
I'm trying to be as clear as possible now, so please understand.
I am hindering no one and I don't want to. I'm talking of MMOGs (not this one, not one in particular) that have chosen to not put detailed maps and no radars. I am not claiming that every MMOG should not have maps, just that I prefer (medieval) MMOGs to not have maps and telling you why. Okay?
If I say I don't like tomatoes, don't say I'm trying to nerf humanity denying them tomatoes. I'm just telling you what I think, how I feel, what my opinions are. This "you wanta nerf uz" doesn't make sense. And don't tell me this is talking strawman, I'm just pointing out something obvious and I like fun but efficient comparisons. If you still feel that "I wantww nerf yal" (have I such a power? To nerf entire games? ) you must explain WHY, maybe it's a form of paranoia.
And I never said no maps at all. I said I like MMOGs where they make sense (like everything else in the game). I clearly said that I don't find them immersion-breaking when they are made in a certain way (I always said "not detailed maps", not "no maps"). We said something about buying maps, not having them detailed, or have them in the form of a internal skill (maybe something like cartography or map making). Read the whole thread if you can, not only the first (my) post.
Again that's me. I don't like too unrealistic things, of course within the fantasy borders. I don't like private intercontinental /tells. I don't like death to be something you really don't care about because it's not a risk (World of Warcraft, for instance). I don't like flashing lights telling you where to do. I don't like killing people be just a free and mindless ganking without legal consequences (no access to main towns, empire's guards arresting or trying to kill you on sight, bounties, etc).
It's good you edited your post. Now let me backlash at you by confirming that not once did I mention that we would 'BE DA NERFEZ'. Now that this comment was clarifed, lets go onto why your arguement is becoming to be a personal goal to make people recognize, and agree with your opinion.
You're making an arguement that it is 'out of content' for you to have a radar displaying where objects are. Now tell me this, what is a radar other then a mini-map of the terrain you are in with a compass pointing you in the right direction? Oh, but you want more justification on the red dots and squiggly lines.
I don't recall back in the mideval days when knights would run into battle and cast 'Healing Prayers' on their allies becuase an enemy wizard cast 'Poison' on them now do you? No, so magic does exist in this game. I'm sure Simutronics could justify everything on a radar, and map with magic. So, there you have it, it isn't out of content. It is done by magic.
untale, I am beginning to understand your perspective now. While I would not like to see your opinions carried out in HJ specifically, they would, in my opinion, work quite well, even for me, in a different game. Your ideas are not bad. the problem is that the design philsophy HJ is the antithesis of your ideas. It is about "more fun less tedium". This philosphy has drawn a crowd of fans that want a game with that in mind. Not having a detailed map system in a "more fun less tedium" fantasy game just doesn't fit. But if we were talking about Vanguard, (which i also want to try) your ideas would fit very well. Vanguard seems to have the philosophy of "tedium is fun" and it can be fun when the game is designed with that in mind from the ground up...which is what you were saying all along.
Originally posted by remyburke And for crying out loud...no radars. I mean, what's next, get a GM to hold your hand around the game so you don't get lost?
Well actually...
I wouldn't be surprised if some GM popped in as an NPC some times and did little min-tours for new and old players. Especially if it's of an area they built and are proud of. I hope you don't begrudge our little RP fun though.
As to the whole Radar thing. I'm sorry but they're a necessary evil. You have to have some means of displaying tracking skill/power information that is pleasing and bearable to look at. I really wouldn't to see us go back to the days of that horrendous tracking system EQ1 used for rangers. I get the heebie jeebies just thinking about that screen.
Also to those arguing the anti-map view and mentioning medieval setting. HJ isn't medieval. Think of being like the game Arcanum that was put out a few years ago or Gnomorregan, only much better, in WoW. While it's not quite the level of Steampunk. Technology does play a part in things. One third of the ruling body of the world is the Gearsmiths afterall.
HJ isn't medieval. Think of being like the game Arcanum that was put out a few years ago or Gnomorregan, only much better, in WoW.
GM Illuminatis World Builder Hero's Journey
OMG that's my all-time favourite RPG! If HJ takes a page from the magicka-meets-steam 'n machine book of Arcanum styled gaming, this is going to be godly!
I got to admit I'm more with the 'less is better' crew in regards to maps and whatnot. Keep the mystery alive. Have maps, fine. But pleeeease don't spoon feed like most current MMOs...
Edit: haha mixed up my metaphores
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
Originally posted by remyburke I played EQ1 during a time when they didn't have in-game maps, yet I knew my way around. Not by looking at a map mind you, but learning the layout of each zone and using landmarks to navigate the zones. Maps are NOT needed, they are a crutch. Burn the maps!!! And for crying out loud...no radars. I mean, what's next, get a GM to hold your hand around the game so you don't get lost?
I played EQ 1 almost from launch and within 6 months of launch there was a little website called EQ Atlas and it was one of the most popular EQ sites out there - as you can see it's still around today and still serving up the maps. So I'd have to say there was a demand for maps even then.
I can also say that, even today, if you were to drop me in say East Commons or Sol A, or any number of the old world zones, I could tell you where I was within a few seconds but you don't want to know how many hours I spent practicing feign pull - back when that was an artform and not a joke - in Sol A. That said, my wife played a dwarf cleric and a barbarian warrior and she could get lost in both Kaladim and Halas - though she could find her way through Kelethin don't ask me how - and don't even think about Freeport or Qeynos.
If you look around you'll find that even though both WoW and EQ2 provide in-game maps there are UI mods out there to put even more information on them, once again this shows there is a demand for this type of information. If you build an MMO today and don't provide an in-game map a website will popup within 3 months with some crude maps and they'll only get better with time. Also, most players today really want the ability to modify the UI to fit their play style. If you allow this then it's only a matter of time before in-game maps start showing up. If you don't provide a radar it's only a matter of time until someone deconstructs the packet stream to provide their own - see ShowEQ.
I'm not saying there will or won't be maps or a radar in HJ but I'm just pointing out some of the things developers have to think about when they make these kinds of decisions.
make maps something you have to buy in game or scrawl and copy off other people. make radar a spell that wizard can cast on your map or enchant into your newly aquired map. let rangers have the ability to be map makers and explorers. the quality of their maps could be tied to their level.
I think it would be neat if other players could put markers on your map, to help you find things if they know where they are, or perhaps to meet at a certain point in time.. things like that.
Originally posted by ZenJosh make maps something you have to buy in game or scrawl and copy off other people. make radar a spell that wizard can cast on your map or enchant into your newly aquired map. let rangers have the ability to be map makers and explorers. the quality of their maps could be tied to their level.
If you make maps something bought in game or something that can be "crafted" in game then it will take about a month for HJ Atlas to popup with downloadable maps. If, as a lot of players seem to want, you make the UI moddable it'll take about the same amount of time for someone to come up with a way to put those downloaded maps in game. So it doesn't gain you much.
Assuming you come up with some way to prevent all of that, making Rangers the only ones that can make maps gives them a highly salable in game skill so how do you balance that? Do you weaken some of their other skills or do you give every class a unique and economically viable skill? And remember this is a dual class game so do only Ranger/xxxx get the skill or can a xxxx/Ranger also make a map. Combining that with your Wizard idea would make Ranger/Wizard an economic powerhouse.
You really only have to look around at the active websites for current MMO's to see that the majority of players want maps. Heck even games that provide an in game map one of the first things you find is highly annotated versions of the maps - there was even a UI mod for WoW that showed the spawn locations for all the harvestable resources and what kind it was likely to be.
Personally, I want to see a map that has useful information on it but doesn't take away the thrill of exploring. A map showing the major cities & landmarks as well as entrances to any dungeons I've visited or would otherwise know about things like that. I don't want to see every mob within a 20 mile radius pinpointed, I don't want to see any dungeons that I haven't found or been expressly told about from a quest giver say. This type of map wouldn't be a huge advantage but it would help me figure out how to get back to where I started, something my character should bloody well know if he's a hero.
As for the radar thing, it kind of needs to be there. You need some sort of, short range, display of what's around you. After all, if you were actually walking in this world you'd be using not just your eyes in front of you but movement in the corner of your eye, sound and even smell to tell you what was nearby.
Sisca, good points... i hadn't considered the economic ramifications. i agree with you that maps have to be there and i also think the community will make things and its a shame that those things are such a challenge to limit.
i think player interaction is essential for a thriving MMO community. i just thought it would be a nice way to handle maps, even a bit more realistic than most other MMOrpgs.
its probably best that everyone have the ability to explore and make there own maps ALA the removal of Fog of war. it would be fun to have no idea where other places (and even continents) are untill someone mentions them and points off into a certain direction. i also like the idea of people being able to place markers on your map to help you out. if someone came to me for directions and i could mark a spot on their map, well that would be infinitely more realistic and practical then explaining landmarks and possibly OOC stuff like zones and instances. i like the way oblivion handled it with their markers... you made a mark and it showed up on every map even if it was a map of the inside of a cottage. whatever markers were active... you always had directions towards them.
Rangers should have some buff for exploring. this is what they do... and map making or aurgmentation of some kind of exploring incentive would be a nice addition. the wizard thing about radar is a bit off...your right, but maybe the spell could simply heighten your senses and the radar expands a little, or maybe that could be a ranger spell... but out of all the classes ive played over the years in different games; everyone always has a few things they could do to make money that appealed to a large group of the in game community. rangers really only ever had skinning, possibly making arrows... while wizards had enchanting, warriors could be bodyguards, healers and preists had rezzurecting. it just seems that rangers need a nice, wide angled interest money making opportunity too. perhaps rangers can get a much more detailed map, and they can lead people through areas like a guide.
i understand the problem with the dual class. is there a way to double up on just one class...? perhaps you can have some abilites (I.E. the ones i just mentioned) only available to Pure classes. that way people will have to give something up to get something else.
come to think of it... have i just skimmed over any documentation concerning double classing? have you guys already commented on whether or not someone can be a Wizard/wizard? possibly get access to arch wizard only spells?
I would like to see some racial abilites, that are accessible to learn by anyone of that race, regardless of class.
Then I would take map making and split the local areas of whichever race, so that race could effectively give you a really good map of the area, and any/everyone could possibly draw other areas, but not in the detail that the native races could.
I would go away from the class map making though, because it just doesn't seem fair, this way everyone gets a part of the action.
I like the way UO did it. You had your full laminated map in the box, and your local surroundings on your radar. The 'main' areas are highlighted on your laminated map but its up to you to find the rest, and when you find somewhere youll want to come back to, you just mark a rune and you can recall back anytime.
Originally posted by untale To be honest this partial result surprises me, I was almost sure that the majority was going to reply like Volsung (I 100% agree with him).
Maybe we just have different views on what's fun in a MMOG and what is not. Someone said in this thread that "less tedium" is the way to go. I think on the contrary that some tedium is needed. Tedium, fear, desperation.. these are emotions as well, and along with the pleasant ones they make you never forget the most exciting experiences. I'm going a little bit OT now.
I agree with your view on Fear and Desperation. These things vital in making a game memorable. However, tedium just bores people. There is no sence of accomplishment completing a tedious task, only a sence of relief that it is over. Now you can get to doing something worthwhile. People tend to mistake tedium for difficulty. The two are very different. In fact tedious work is usually very simple, just freakin' dull, boring and repetative. Nothing to get the adrenaline going in tedium. You can save that for Vanguard, which is all about tedium. Lets keep it out of HJ.
Comments
1. you essentially said what I said but in different words..."If the game was originally designed to contain a detailed map then
there's nothing I can do, the map is just there and I am not going to
nerf myself while everybody around me is using it.
IF the game was
designed without maps, then nobody has a map and nobody is nerfed. We
are just talking about a game with no maps." that's what I said...just different words. dare I say...TwIsTeD words. My point still remains undebunked. Not so much because I'm right per se, but because there is no right or wrong on this particular issue. It's as subjective as liking the flavor of oranges over the flavor of frosted flakes.
2. As far as your x-ray comments? Strawman fallacy.
It's really not a right or wrong issue. It's a preference issue. If I had my way I'd make them have a special server for RP folks that don't want a map. It's a good option idea for those who would rather do without. My guess is that such an option would be so unpopular that there wouldn't be enough players using it to justify it's upkeep versus that fully loaded radar and "x-ray" version. I could be wrong about that but I think a server catering to that style would be a good idea and would allow us map/radar/x-ray lovers to navigate to our hearts content on the "normal" servers.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
popular as he thought it would be, and is now scrambling to prove that
it is the best.
What the..? o_O I'm just providing my point of view in all honesty, you seem to take it like an insult. Please.
We are here to discuss ideas, I think.
TO paranoia
Wait just a moment. Now please, read again my last post and try to do it with serenity and without prejudices. You'll notice that I'm not twisting words. What I say is that if the game is thought from the beginning with no detailed maps, then nobody is getting nerfed and this is the exact same thing in a game with maps. The X-ray example was put there to make it clearer: you don't need X-rays, still having it would make you more powerful and the game much easier.
I hope you don't keep thinking I'm being hypocrite. I like to talk with serenity.
EDIT: I want to say it again in other words, maybe my poor english skills are making me hard to understand.
I was criticizing your saying that I'm claiming to nerf all the players because I don't want to nerf myself.
Nerfing myself in a game with maps is not comparable to "nerfing everybody in a game with no maps".
If the game has maps, the game was thought to have them of course and I would be nerfing myself not using them.
If the game has no maps, nobody is nerfed. It just doesn't have maps! You can't say that -> I <- am nerfing everybody, it's the game that has no maps.
I'm going back IT now.
We are used to medieval MMOGs and when we talk about MMOGs we almost always imagine a medieval world.
I like immersive games and that's why I don't like detailed maps and radars, they are immersion-killers (okay, that's me). And I'm not the only one here.
But, as I already said in this thread, there isn't a "right" way to play or create a MMOG. I want immersive and long games, different players want fast and easy fun. Nothing is wrong in it. My view is that maps in medieval MMOGs are one excessive thing, your view is different.
I came to know 3 days ago that EVE Online is freely downloadable and playable for 15 days. I'm falling in love with that game and I think I will be playing nothing else for some years. And guess what?
This game got a super detailed map. No fog of war, just a plain map which lets you know everything (still the galaxy is HUGE). But I LOVE this in EVE. Why? Because of the setting. Here these kind of things don't kill immersion.
I don't know if this has been asked before, but were their not maps in the 'Fantasy' era? Just put an option to disable it, or make your mini-map super small so you can't see it. No use wanting to hinder other people.
It wont get taken out, in fact it would piss a huge population off if it did. It's almost as if it is like the 'perma-death' system. It has such a small, cult-like followers that if a company is truely to go after it, it will ultimately fail in the end.
I'm
) you must explain WHY, maybe it's a form of paranoia. 
trying to be as clear as possible now, so please understand.
I
am hindering no one and I don't want to. I'm talking of MMOGs (not
this one, not one in particular) that have chosen to not put detailed
maps and no radars. I am not claiming that every MMOG should not have
maps, just that I prefer (medieval) MMOGs to not have maps and
telling you why.
Okay?
If I say I don't like tomatoes,
don't say I'm trying to nerf humanity denying them tomatoes. I'm just
telling you what I think, how I feel, what my opinions are. This "you
wanta nerf uz" doesn't make sense. And don't tell me
this is talking strawman, I'm just pointing out something obvious and I
like fun but efficient comparisons. If you still feel that "I
wantww nerf yal" (have I such a power? To nerf entire games?
And I never said no maps at all. I said I like MMOGs
where they make sense (like everything else in the game). I clearly
said that I don't find them immersion-breaking when they are made in
a certain way (I always said "not detailed maps", not "no
maps"). We said something about buying maps, not having them
detailed, or have them in the form of a internal skill (maybe
something like cartography or map making). Read the whole thread if
you can, not only the first (my) post.
Again
that's me. I don't like too unrealistic things, of course within the
fantasy borders. I don't like private intercontinental /tells. I
don't like death to be something you really don't care about because
it's not a risk (World of Warcraft, for instance). I don't like
flashing lights telling you where to do. I don't like killing people
be just a free and mindless ganking without legal consequences (no
access to main towns, empire's guards arresting or trying to kill you on sight, bounties,
etc).
But
again: I don't like.
I, not you or he.
It's good you edited your post. Now let me backlash at you by confirming that not once did I mention that we would 'BE DA NERFEZ'. Now that this comment was clarifed, lets go onto why your arguement is becoming to be a personal goal to make people recognize, and agree with your opinion.
You're making an arguement that it is 'out of content' for you to have a radar displaying where objects are. Now tell me this, what is a radar other then a mini-map of the terrain you are in with a compass pointing you in the right direction? Oh, but you want more justification on the red dots and squiggly lines.
I don't recall back in the mideval days when knights would run into battle and cast 'Healing Prayers' on their allies becuase an enemy wizard cast 'Poison' on them now do you? No, so magic does exist in this game. I'm sure Simutronics could justify everything on a radar, and map with magic. So, there you have it, it isn't out of content. It is done by magic.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Well actually...
I wouldn't be surprised if some GM popped in as an NPC some times and did little min-tours for new and old players. Especially if it's of an area they built and are proud of. I hope you don't begrudge our little RP fun though.
As to the whole Radar thing. I'm sorry but they're a necessary evil. You have to have some means of displaying tracking skill/power information that is pleasing and bearable to look at. I really wouldn't to see us go back to the days of that horrendous tracking system EQ1 used for rangers. I get the heebie jeebies just thinking about that screen.
Also to those arguing the anti-map view and mentioning medieval setting. HJ isn't medieval. Think of being like the game Arcanum that was put out a few years ago or Gnomorregan, only much better, in WoW. While it's not quite the level of Steampunk. Technology does play a part in things. One third of the ruling body of the world is the Gearsmiths afterall.
GM Illuminatis
World Builder
Hero's Journey
If HJ takes a page from the magicka-meets-steam 'n machine book of Arcanum styled gaming, this is going to be godly!
I got to admit I'm more with the 'less is better' crew in regards to maps and whatnot. Keep the mystery alive. Have maps, fine. But pleeeease don't spoon feed like most current MMOs...
Edit: haha mixed up my metaphores
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
I can also say that, even today, if you were to drop me in say East Commons or Sol A, or any number of the old world zones, I could tell you where I was within a few seconds but you don't want to know how many hours I spent practicing feign pull - back when that was an artform and not a joke - in Sol A. That said, my wife played a dwarf cleric and a barbarian warrior and she could get lost in both Kaladim and Halas - though she could find her way through Kelethin don't ask me how - and don't even think about Freeport or Qeynos.
If you look around you'll find that even though both WoW and EQ2 provide in-game maps there are UI mods out there to put even more information on them, once again this shows there is a demand for this type of information. If you build an MMO today and don't provide an in-game map a website will popup within 3 months with some crude maps and they'll only get better with time. Also, most players today really want the ability to modify the UI to fit their play style. If you allow this then it's only a matter of time before in-game maps start showing up. If you don't provide a radar it's only a matter of time until someone deconstructs the packet stream to provide their own - see ShowEQ.
I'm not saying there will or won't be maps or a radar in HJ but I'm just pointing out some of the things developers have to think about when they make these kinds of decisions.
Be one with it.
I think it would be neat if other players could put markers on your map, to help you find things if they know where they are, or perhaps to meet at a certain point in time.. things like that.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
Assuming you come up with some way to prevent all of that, making Rangers the only ones that can make maps gives them a highly salable in game skill so how do you balance that? Do you weaken some of their other skills or do you give every class a unique and economically viable skill? And remember this is a dual class game so do only Ranger/xxxx get the skill or can a xxxx/Ranger also make a map. Combining that with your Wizard idea would make Ranger/Wizard an economic powerhouse.
You really only have to look around at the active websites for current MMO's to see that the majority of players want maps. Heck even games that provide an in game map one of the first things you find is highly annotated versions of the maps - there was even a UI mod for WoW that showed the spawn locations for all the harvestable resources and what kind it was likely to be.
Personally, I want to see a map that has useful information on it but doesn't take away the thrill of exploring. A map showing the major cities & landmarks as well as entrances to any dungeons I've visited or would otherwise know about things like that. I don't want to see every mob within a 20 mile radius pinpointed, I don't want to see any dungeons that I haven't found or been expressly told about from a quest giver say. This type of map wouldn't be a huge advantage but it would help me figure out how to get back to where I started, something my character should bloody well know if he's a hero.
As for the radar thing, it kind of needs to be there. You need some sort of, short range, display of what's around you. After all, if you were actually walking in this world you'd be using not just your eyes in front of you but movement in the corner of your eye, sound and even smell to tell you what was nearby.
Sisca, good points... i hadn't considered the economic ramifications. i agree with you that maps have to be there and i also think the community will make things and its a shame that those things are such a challenge to limit.
i think player interaction is essential for a thriving MMO community. i just thought it would be a nice way to handle maps, even a bit more realistic than most other MMOrpgs.
its probably best that everyone have the ability to explore and make there own maps ALA the removal of Fog of war. it would be fun to have no idea where other places (and even continents) are untill someone mentions them and points off into a certain direction. i also like the idea of people being able to place markers on your map to help you out. if someone came to me for directions and i could mark a spot on their map, well that would be infinitely more realistic and practical then explaining landmarks and possibly OOC stuff like zones and instances. i like the way oblivion handled it with their markers... you made a mark and it showed up on every map even if it was a map of the inside of a cottage. whatever markers were active... you always had directions towards them.
Rangers should have some buff for exploring. this is what they do... and map making or aurgmentation of some kind of exploring incentive would be a nice addition. the wizard thing about radar is a bit off...your right, but maybe the spell could simply heighten your senses and the radar expands a little, or maybe that could be a ranger spell... but out of all the classes ive played over the years in different games; everyone always has a few things they could do to make money that appealed to a large group of the in game community. rangers really only ever had skinning, possibly making arrows... while wizards had enchanting, warriors could be bodyguards, healers and preists had rezzurecting. it just seems that rangers need a nice, wide angled interest money making opportunity too. perhaps rangers can get a much more detailed map, and they can lead people through areas like a guide.
i understand the problem with the dual class. is there a way to double up on just one class...? perhaps you can have some abilites (I.E. the ones i just mentioned) only available to Pure classes. that way people will have to give something up to get something else.
come to think of it... have i just skimmed over any documentation concerning double classing? have you guys already commented on whether or not someone can be a Wizard/wizard? possibly get access to arch wizard only spells?
just a thought.
Be one with it.
I would like to see some racial abilites, that are accessible to learn by anyone of that race, regardless of class.
Then I would take map making and split the local areas of whichever race, so that race could effectively give you a really good map of the area, and any/everyone could possibly draw other areas, but not in the detail that the native races could.
I would go away from the class map making though, because it just doesn't seem fair, this way everyone gets a part of the action.
Oh well.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
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