Story has always been part of RPGs, be it table top or CRPGs. There's no Ultima series, no Wizardry, no Elder Scrolls series, no Witcher series, without a good story.
There's no valid reason why MMORPGs would be different.
And to those who will reply that in MMORPGs, the players should create their own stories... well, the very vast majority of players totally suck as creating and RPing. Without a strong guidance from the developers, there's only kindergarten courtyard drama level of story in most player created stories. I'm personally not interested in that.
There is story, and then there's STORY. The story about why the wolves are becoming aggressive in an area is different from the story about *you* being the savior of the world, ala Elder Scrolls.
In single player games, I enjoy saving the world. I can save it however I feel like most of the time. In an MMORPG, not so much. It breaks my immersion knowing that thousands of other "saviors" are running about, just like me. But I enjoy knowing the story behind the Ogre migration to a new area. That story has nothing to do with me... unless *I* am the cause of that migration
Did that make sense?
PS: Basically I agree that stories need to be in MMORPGs. I just wanted to clarify which kinds of stories.
Rather than calling for the removal of stories from our MMORPGs, as the thread topic seems to advocate, why don't we ask for BETTER stories in our MMORPGs?
Write the stories behind quests not directed at an individual player, but to a wider audience. Treat the players as they would a reader in a book or a viewer of a play, rarely breaking the 4th wall. Try not having the NPCs interact with the player; dialog is frequently that point where the writing falls apart. Let the player be a fly on the wall, overhearing information and acting on it as they deem appropriate.
Don't treat quests as an opportunity to reward players, let the stories guide the players around the world. There's no need to reward heroics, a good deed is its own reward. From a moral aspect, games (specifically quest writing) encourages behavior only for the promise of some tangible reward (faction, XP, money, items). Is this really the lesson we want taught to our children?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I don't think MMO's should have a hero story. Although I think they should have a lot of lore. If you make a game where everyone is a hero, you've made a single player game. There can be stories which the players take part in. But not everyone needs or wants to be the hero of the game.
Story has always been part of RPGs, be it table top or CRPGs.
Guess you've never played a sandbox campaign in a table-top? Because the absolutely are table-top games where the DM just lets you lose on the world with no greater overarching narrative and leaves it to the players to find their own goals.
Rather than calling for the removal of stories from our MMORPGs, as the thread topic seems to advocate, why don't we ask for BETTER stories in our MMORPGs?
Write the stories behind quests not directed at an individual player, but to a wider audience. Treat the players as they would a reader in a book or a viewer of a play, rarely breaking the 4th wall. Try not having the NPCs interact with the player; dialog is frequently that point where the writing falls apart. Let the player be a fly on the wall, overhearing information and acting on it as they deem appropriate.
Don't treat quests as an opportunity to reward players, let the stories guide the players around the world. There's no need to reward heroics, a good deed is its own reward. From a moral aspect, games (specifically quest writing) encourages behavior only for the promise of some tangible reward (faction, XP, money, items). Is this really the lesson we want taught to our children?
Exactly. Storytelling in MMO's is terrible. Even if it isn't terrible, I wouldn't know; I didn't read it. When you have arrows pointing the way and the goal is getting XP as fast as you can, then why even tell a story. The whole formula is broken.
The solution (for a niche audience at least) is to remove the XP and the quest arrows/help. If the quest can't be completed without reading and understanding the quest text, then the player is forced to at least look at it. If XP is not rewarded for completing a quest, then there is less of a reason to grab as many quests as you can and rush through them. This will allow the enjoyment of the quests to become the goal rather than just a way to get to the goal.
"You are the chosen hero, the one who will slay the Litch King. Favored servant of the lord of your people, bearing the mark that shows you are the one true hero of your people."
A better version for an MMO is:
"You are a member of the armies of your people who will take part in the battle against the Litch King."
The only story I would personally find good in an MMO is:
"The litch king is dead because he got slain within a week of game release. You are a hero who will take part in a battle against a new threat because the world isn't static and unchanging." or perhaps...
"The litch king has a hidden phylactery that conveniently was made unfindable. He will return with a new army of the damned every X days as a minor reoccurring event. Meanwhile the conflicts between players who lead the various nations of the game is the primary driver of any overarching story."
I lost count how many times I heard in game trailer.......You can shape the world, you can be king, you can create an empire, be a trader and earn a fortune, be a master in crafts, you as the players creates your own story and list goes on and on.
These type of gimmick words are often heard in open world games and or sandbox games trailers, we all know how totally NOT how it playes out when the game launches, the world is emty, there is no lore or story because It's the players job to create that, it all end up in gank fest or castle sieges that are a shape of a penis because that guild thought it was funny to build a castle like that.
A game need at least today a background story and a little red thread running thru the world, have some form of substance and the illusion that there is something going on in the background that the player can interact or help change via quests,world events or just playing.
So a mix of sandbox and themepark are a good combo to make a good and interesting game world.
The first 3 mad max movies were quite entertaining IMO. I love the chaotic settings and the anti hero types. I find them enjoyable.
I've never been a ganker, but I enjoy those environments. I find it gets the adrenaline pumping. You don't get that by following static stories where there is no chance or low chance of failure.
Modern MMOs are like a very long story where you lose the point.
I am a fan of starting out in rags and working your way up. I think it makes the world feel far more dangerous and you are starting at 0, but becoming a good fighter, mage, thief, etc. as you progress. That always creating a feeling of excitement for me when I was younger. It was like the wild west in a fantasy setting.
I'm not a big fan of minecraft due to the blockiness of it. It's not really a combat oriented game. It's generally a place to fool around for kids.
I'm less referring to the games specifically and more to the general ideas. Minecraft is a sandbox built around shaping the world. Wurm has amazing crafting. EVE has player politics on a scale grander than ever seen in any other games.
Amazing things are accomplished in all of these games that could never happen in the WoW clones people continually trashing sandboxes doggedly defend. Random ganking happens. Penis towers happen. But the when you get to the high levels of gameplay it's about creating unique stories and sculpting and incredible world.
To boil down this down to ideas like "gankfest", "penis towers" "not a true roleplaying game" (When you will find more roleplay in sandboxes than anywhere else) is behavior far more befitting the names like "idiot" and "troll" they hurl at people who would dare say things like that the differences between WoW and ESO really are not very meaningful when you compare them to games like EVE.
But then again, in a PvP sandbox I would kill them for being mouthy even though I generally help newbs in such games, so I can see why they would prefer a game where they can hurl around their nastiness without consequences.
I sort of agree and sort of disagree with this hypothesis at the same time.
Everquest seemed to have no real underlying story at first. For the most part, you just grind grind grind. Quests were few and far between, and that limited the narrative quite a bit.
But then you see things like WoW. They are trying so desperately to adhere to lore with stories that they find themselves repeatedly retconning the past. This is the time where story actually starts to be a drawback.
Is there really a story if we don't read the quests? I don't even remember the last MMO where I actually read the quests...There were a couple where you had to read the text or you couldn't get past the quests but those are extremely rare.
have to agree with above post. Thesedays many people just skip past that and get on with it.
Game does not need to have a story, but it MUST excel in gameplay, graphics and sound and have plenty of stuff to do. If its just no storyline and none of those it is doomed to failure (even if it has just 1 or 2 of those) it will still be doomed.
Is there really a story if we don't read the quests? I don't even remember the last MMO where I actually read the quests...There were a couple where you had to read the text or you couldn't get past the quests but those are extremely rare.
That is the thing though, the vast majority of questing in MMORPGs amounts to nothing more than extended flavor text ala MtG cards. It's merely window-dressing to add some lore to the quest (or card).
Much more work is needed in the area of AI and questing for those things to stand out enough for most gamers to truly wanna take the time to absorb it. Otherwise, it's just some words.
I love the way that Asheron's Call handled this. Every month you had an update, with story, that you read outside of the game. The "story" really only gave a backdrop for why the world is the way it is that month; why new 'quests', npcs, or items have appeared, why new world events are happening, etc. etc. Sure there was some flavor text at the bottom of the screen but it was completely unnecessary to anything other than that specific quest and not needed for the grand scheme of your character. The story, otherwise, was just about you, being an adventurer in that world.
Is there really a story if we don't read the quests? I don't even remember the last MMO where I actually read the quests...There were a couple where you had to read the text or you couldn't get past the quests but those are extremely rare.
Back in 2004, you could not afford to not read the quests, because you didn't have giant arrows on the map to show you were the objective was. It's not a problem of having quests, it's a problem of games showing way too much information.
Back in 2004 people just used websites to see where to go on a quest. Sure it was a hell of a lot more fun reading the quests, but most people just used word of mouth and the internet.
A restaurant does not need fish. Any fish at all. True or false? Tell me the answer, I'll prove the opposite. There are mmos based around story. Example: Lord of the rings online. Even if we know the start and the end.. I do cared about certain moments. Read quests' text and later re-checking with local wiki. Some quests -nope, did not bother to read. Please tell me what exactly to read if I am to kill 10 spiders.
Istaria: rarely bothered to read arguments, why am I sent to kill, say, 5 Bloodskulks. And yeap, it had some lore about Dragons (Helian vs Lunus). Since I was f2p (human only), I cared little about reading.
Thus: in certain mmos story is crucial. In certain (somehow thinking about EVE) there could be zero story. And one more thing: if we have thousands of quests - which we would - at certain moment most p;ayuers would just stop reading walls of text. "Oh brave hero, our village, GrumpVille, is known since millenia before thou wert born and its first mayor was Grumpy Grumpstone, who founded the village. Thus, oh fair adventurer, we are at very big misfortune, first from 23 millenia: the evil stinky rats that eat our crops and even worse - disturb our sleep, desecrating village's only brothel. Needless to say, we depend on crop export and brothel to thrive. So, dear abd brave Hero, would you be so kind and brave and go to fields and kill ten rats for which entire GrumpyVille would be forever thankfull" - would youi read such wall? How many times?
I don't bother with most stories in the MMO's I play because I can't affect the story. It's static and unchangeable by my actions. Dynamic stories though are quite fun to participate in and I'd love to see more of that in the MMORPG genre. I play games to participate not to passively read like a book.
Back in 2004 people just used websites to see where to go on a quest. Sure it was a hell of a lot more fun reading the quests, but most people just used word of mouth and the internet.
They did. Quest arrows were just yet another nail in the coffin of community.
Community in these games is built through game design, quest arrows are a key sign of how devs didn't, and mostly still don't, understand that.
Is there really a story if we don't read the quests? I don't even remember the last MMO where I actually read the quests...There were a couple where you had to read the text or you couldn't get past the quests but those are extremely rare.
Back in 2004, you could not afford to not read the quests, because you didn't have giant arrows on the map to show you were the objective was. It's not a problem of having quests, it's a problem of games showing way too much information.
Back in 2004 people just used websites to see where to go on a quest. Sure it was a hell of a lot more fun reading the quests, but most people just used word of mouth and the internet.
Back in 2004, people were asking other players about information. You didn't have the extensive information sites you have nowadays.
Yeah, you had 'where is mankirk's wife'. But that was a good thing. But then, I don't give a shit if people use the Internet to dumb down games. What I'm bored about is that quests are written with those big giant arrows in mind, which was NOT true back in 2004. Quest assistants are just bad if they are forced on everybody.
Worst is that the quest info isn't detailed enough to go without quest markers many times.
Is there really a story if we don't read the quests? I don't even remember the last MMO where I actually read the quests...There were a couple where you had to read the text or you couldn't get past the quests but those are extremely rare.
I haven't read every book but they are still full of stories. Whether you read it or not, the story is there. There are MMOs that "force" their story on players with unskippable cutscenes and other silly "you're the savior!" features.
A story is a story whether one reads them or not.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Honestly, if you can't ignore that you are being treated as special in an MMO story just for the sake of, you know, enjoying yourself.. then how on earth do you convince yourself that playing games altogether is not completely pointless? Surely you'd get annoyed at any game not being real if you thought that way, since you clearly know it's all fabricated.
It's about having fun, not trying to trick yourself.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Honestly, if you can't ignore that you are being treated as special in an MMO story just for the sake of, you know, enjoying yourself.. then how on earth do you convince yourself that playing games altogether is not completely pointless? Surely you'd get annoyed at any game not being real if you thought that way, since you clearly know it's all fabricated.
It's about having fun, not trying to trick yourself.
Because Witcher 3 doesn't beat me over the head with the facetiousness of the story.
In an MMORPG, I get tasked with taking down General Warbringer of Doom, I may have to stare at his already lifeless body waiting on him to respawn. That's jarring with regards to the story.
Honestly, if you can't ignore that you are being treated as special in an MMO story just for the sake of, you know, enjoying yourself.. then how on earth do you convince yourself that playing games altogether is not completely pointless? Surely you'd get annoyed at any game not being real if you thought that way, since you clearly know it's all fabricated.
It's about having fun, not trying to trick yourself.
Because Witcher 3 doesn't beat me over the head with the facetiousness of the story.
In an MMORPG, I get tasked with taking down General Warbringer of Doom, I may have to stare at his already lifeless body waiting on him to respawn. That's jarring with regards to the story.
So enemies all gathered in designated areas that infinitely pop back into existence all around you in a sandbox game is perfectly fine? What about NPC's that never move, literally stand in the same spot all their life? What about the fact that our characters don't need to go to the toilet, ever?
You can't ignore one unreal aspect of a game but be bothered by another.
We completely understand why that corpse is there so we can just ignore it. Plus, most games have gotten around that problem already with instances or phasing.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Comments
Write the stories behind quests not directed at an individual player, but to a wider audience. Treat the players as they would a reader in a book or a viewer of a play, rarely breaking the 4th wall. Try not having the NPCs interact with the player; dialog is frequently that point where the writing falls apart. Let the player be a fly on the wall, overhearing information and acting on it as they deem appropriate.
Don't treat quests as an opportunity to reward players, let the stories guide the players around the world. There's no need to reward heroics, a good deed is its own reward. From a moral aspect, games (specifically quest writing) encourages behavior only for the promise of some tangible reward (faction, XP, money, items). Is this really the lesson we want taught to our children?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The solution (for a niche audience at least) is to remove the XP and the quest arrows/help. If the quest can't be completed without reading and understanding the quest text, then the player is forced to at least look at it. If XP is not rewarded for completing a quest, then there is less of a reason to grab as many quests as you can and rush through them. This will allow the enjoyment of the quests to become the goal rather than just a way to get to the goal.
"You are the chosen hero, the one who will slay the Litch King. Favored servant of the lord of your people, bearing the mark that shows you are the one true hero of your people."
A better version for an MMO is:
"You are a member of the armies of your people who will take part in the battle against the Litch King."
The only story I would personally find good in an MMO is:
"The litch king is dead because he got slain within a week of game release. You are a hero who will take part in a battle against a new threat because the world isn't static and unchanging."
or perhaps...
"The litch king has a hidden phylactery that conveniently was made unfindable. He will return with a new army of the damned every X days as a minor reoccurring event. Meanwhile the conflicts between players who lead the various nations of the game is the primary driver of any overarching story."
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
I think the greatest example of this Minecraft. What a bloodbath of sociopaths. And all they do is build penis towers to laugh at.
Man without story games just turn into Mad Max. You never see player creativity unleashed and people doing really cool stuff.
Amazing things are accomplished in all of these games that could never happen in the WoW clones people continually trashing sandboxes doggedly defend. Random ganking happens. Penis towers happen. But the when you get to the high levels of gameplay it's about creating unique stories and sculpting and incredible world.
To boil down this down to ideas like "gankfest", "penis towers" "not a true roleplaying game" (When you will find more roleplay in sandboxes than anywhere else) is behavior far more befitting the names like "idiot" and "troll" they hurl at people who would dare say things like that the differences between WoW and ESO really are not very meaningful when you compare them to games like EVE.
But then again, in a PvP sandbox I would kill them for being mouthy even though I generally help newbs in such games, so I can see why they would prefer a game where they can hurl around their nastiness without consequences.
Everquest seemed to have no real underlying story at first. For the most part, you just grind grind grind. Quests were few and far between, and that limited the narrative quite a bit.
But then you see things like WoW. They are trying so desperately to adhere to lore with stories that they find themselves repeatedly retconning the past. This is the time where story actually starts to be a drawback.
I guess it depends on the game and the story.
Game does not need to have a story, but it MUST excel in gameplay, graphics and sound and have plenty of stuff to do. If its just no storyline and none of those it is doomed to failure (even if it has just 1 or 2 of those) it will still be doomed.
Much more work is needed in the area of AI and questing for those things to stand out enough for most gamers to truly wanna take the time to absorb it. Otherwise, it's just some words.
True or false? Tell me the answer, I'll prove the opposite.
There are mmos based around story. Example: Lord of the rings online. Even if we know the start and the end.. I do cared about certain moments. Read quests' text and later re-checking with local wiki. Some quests -nope, did not bother to read. Please tell me what exactly to read if I am to kill 10 spiders.
And one more thing: if we have thousands of quests - which we would - at certain moment most p;ayuers would just stop reading walls of text. "Oh brave hero, our village, GrumpVille, is known since millenia before thou wert born and its first mayor was Grumpy Grumpstone, who founded the village. Thus, oh fair adventurer, we are at very big misfortune, first from 23 millenia: the evil stinky rats that eat our crops and even worse - disturb our sleep, desecrating village's only brothel. Needless to say, we depend on crop export and brothel to thrive. So, dear abd brave Hero, would you be so kind and brave and go to fields and kill ten rats for which entire GrumpyVille would be forever thankfull" - would youi read such wall? How many times?
http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com
They don't even need quests.
They did. Quest arrows were just yet another nail in the coffin of community.
Community in these games is built through game design, quest arrows are a key sign of how devs didn't, and mostly still don't, understand that.
A story is a story whether one reads them or not.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It's about having fun, not trying to trick yourself.
In an MMORPG, I get tasked with taking down General Warbringer of Doom, I may have to stare at his already lifeless body waiting on him to respawn. That's jarring with regards to the story.
You can't ignore one unreal aspect of a game but be bothered by another.
We completely understand why that corpse is there so we can just ignore it. Plus, most games have gotten around that problem already with instances or phasing.