I still say one of the largest issues with Crowdfunded MMORPGs has not even been touched on. Most companies and campaigns focus on reaching launch. Even that, pretty much all have proven deficient in... some to the point of gross negligence. But beyond that... when one of these actually does make it to launch (look at SotA) they have already pre-sold the game and all possible addons to their loyal fans. Some games have already pre-sold years and years of game time. Unless lightning strikes, there is just no “Big Bang” of cash coming at launch. And since their pre-sold offerings had all the perks, it’s highly unlikely there are a ton of people waiting to hear the word “launch”.
Off the the top of my head we’ve had SotA, The Exlied and Albion reach launch. We’ve had Pathfinder each a “no wipe” stage. None have shown there are people waiting in the wings.
Pre-selling the game and years of perks to your fanbase and using all the money just to get to launch is a bad setup.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I still say one of the largest issues with Crowdfunded MMORPGs has not even been touched on. Most companies and campaigns focus on reaching launch. Even that, pretty much all have proven deficient in... some to the point of gross negligence. But beyond that... when one of these actually does make it to launch (look at SotA) they have already pre-sold the game and all possible addons to their loyal fans. Some games have already pre-sold years and years of game time. Unless lightning strikes, there is just no “Big Bang” of cash coming at launch. And since their pre-sold offerings had all the perks, it’s highly unlikely there are a ton of people waiting to hear the word “launch”.
Off the the top of my head we’ve had SotA, The Exlied and Albion reach launch. We’ve had Pathfinder each a “no wipe” stage. None have shown there are people waiting in the wings.
Pre-selling the game and years of perks to your fanbase and using all the money just to get to launch is a bad setup.
Lots of companies seem to be betting on hoards of people stepping up to give them money once they reach a 'launched' status. Even for the games accomplishing the difficult task of development, they appear to be confusing 'crowd funding' with 'advertising'. A product *should* have more appeal once finished, but that doesn't negate the need to promote the product beyond those that gave them money. If these companies are relying only on the population of those who saw their crowdfunding effort, that's a major step to closing the doors.
Investors might worry about return on investment, but there's a concept of 'return on effort', also. Working 4 hours for $1000 might be great; working 4 years for $1000 isn't. Many of the people building these games will want compensation for the time they put into that game. If they aren't, we will be calling them ex-developers soon. Then who's going to build the next game we want to play?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Except these aren't non-profit charities. In order for your scenario to take in donations they have to be charitable types of organizations. That's what differentiates a business transaction from a donation.
If a charity set up a crowd-funded event where they provide perks for money I consider that a donation because it's non-profit.
When I donate to an organization and get perks, goods, or services back it's a business transaction.
It's a gray area being exploited that has no clear legal framework. For profit businesses are exploiting the mechanisms provided for non-profit charities. Just because they're getting away with it now isn't justification for it being moral or legal. It may be both but it's not been challenged or defined that way that I know of.
Except these aren't non-profit charities. In order for your scenario to take in donations they have to be charitable types of organizations. That's what differentiates a business transaction from a donation.
If a charity set up a crowd-funded event where they provide perks for money I consider that a donation because it's non-profit.
When I donate to an organization and get perks, goods, or services back it's a business transaction.
It's a gray area being exploited that has no clear legal framework. For profit businesses are exploiting the mechanisms provided for non-profit charities. Just because they're getting away with it now isn't justification for it being moral or legal. It may be both but it's not been challenged or defined that way that I know of.
None of those I listed are non profits.
That's being a little vague. Those organizations are booster organizations to support the welfare of the troops. Every branch has them- we had the Airman's Ball as well- the "profits" are used for charitable reasons. It's not even in the same realm of asking for donations to start up a video game company geared towards a singular project. It's much closer to a non-profit than a video game company.
EDIT- for a clear analogy, implying booster clubs are in the same realm as Kickstarter MMORPG projects is akin to accusing a high school football booster club of profiteering because they're selling cookies for a dollar each.
I don't think how you get a good game funded actually matters, the problem with crowdfunding is that some people miss that it is a kind of investment and you shouldn't just throw your money on anyone that ask for it.
Do some research and only fund people that have both a good idea and a competent team that can pull it off. Just like any other investment.
It may not matter as much how many people that will play a crowdfunded MMO but they still need enough playerbase to keep the game running and updated after launch so don't fund projects that don't have the potential to keep 50K or so players running either so you don't fund something that will be gone a few months after launch.
I don't think how you get a good game funded actually matters, the problem with crowdfunding is that some people miss that it is a kind of investment and you shouldn't just throw your money on anyone that ask for it.
Do some research and only fund people that have both a good idea and a competent team that can pull it off. Just like any other investment.
It may not matter as much how many people that will play a crowdfunded MMO but they still need enough playerbase to keep the game running and updated after launch so don't fund projects that don't have the potential to keep 50K or so players running either so you don't fund something that will be gone a few months after launch.
That's more easily said than done. Specifically trying to predict what will hold a large player interest. Consider that, prior to PUBG, battle royale's weren't considered a gold mine even by traditional publishers.
Crowdfunding is that guy holding a cardboard sign at the corner of the intersection.
Odds are pretty good any money you give to him isn't going towards what the sign says.
It's a lot like the higher education system, mostly the students are there to keep the educators employed... crowd funding keeps the unemployed developers et al erstwhile occupied until another real gig comes along. Given the choice of a real gig versus a crowdfunded project, I'd wager 99% of them would take the real gig. They aren't really here to make the game you want, they're only here for the paycheck.
That's being a little vague. Those organizations are booster organizations to support the welfare of the troops. Every branch has them- we had the Airman's Ball as well- the "profits" are used for charitable reasons. It's not even in the same realm of asking for donations to start up a video game company geared towards a singular project. It's much closer to a non-profit than a video game company.
EDIT- for a clear analogy, implying booster clubs are in the same realm as Kickstarter MMORPG projects is akin to accusing a high school football booster club of profiteering because they're selling cookies for a dollar each.
That wasn't the point. He took the statements completely out of context.
I was responding to an earlier point about Kickstarter suggestions for rewards by pointing out that ensuring gifts related to donations had relative value. The better examples would be the patreon and twitch tiers, which are clearly donations. I just didn't think of them until later.
The biggest problem I see with CF games, especially MMOS. is this: You put your idea out there and you manage to get the funding and keep the funding coming in while you develop. And lets say you make it all the way to release (This has never happened yet.......ever) but, then what?
You now owe a product to people who have already paid you. How can you fund your ongoing MMORPG? Subs? Cash Shops? These things are tough for fully funded studios, now you want to have an indie studio try this with no revenue?
There is 1 potential example of this possibility happening, and most likely never ever happen twice.
In a nut shell, you have already sold your product to the people who would be interested. MMOS don't get bigger as time passes anymore. The game is over before it starts......Literally.
That's being a little vague. Those organizations are booster organizations to support the welfare of the troops. Every branch has them- we had the Airman's Ball as well- the "profits" are used for charitable reasons. It's not even in the same realm of asking for donations to start up a video game company geared towards a singular project. It's much closer to a non-profit than a video game company.
EDIT- for a clear analogy, implying booster clubs are in the same realm as Kickstarter MMORPG projects is akin to accusing a high school football booster club of profiteering because they're selling cookies for a dollar each.
That wasn't the point. He took the statements completely out of context.
I was responding to an earlier point about Kickstarter suggestions for rewards by pointing out that ensuring gifts related to donations had relative value. The better examples would be the patreon and twitch tiers, which are clearly donations. I just didn't think of them until later.
What was your AFSC?
1C1X1, Air Traffic Controller! It was a lot of fun working directly with the fighter pilots. I'm assuming you were in the Army, what did they have you doing while you were in??
1C1X1, Air Traffic Controller! It was a lot of fun working directly with the fighter pilots. I'm assuming you were in the Army, what did they have you doing while you were in??
Ah. Have a cousin who did that. I was a 98C Signals Intelligence Analyst. Best job I ever had because I was basically a professional figure-outer.
Though funny enough, I've spent about 75% my whole career since I got out on Lackland and working with the AF in one form or another.
It's a gamble.. a donation is when you have an assured thing, like donating money to a soup kitchen, you know they will at least give out soup.
With an MMO, you do not have that, You are taking a complete and total gamble on if they are even able to pull this off at all.
You are betting they can do this, but all you are investing into is the attempt.
If you have not embraced fully they might fail, then you really have no place sitting at the gamblers table.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
1C1X1, Air Traffic Controller! It was a lot of fun working directly with the fighter pilots. I'm assuming you were in the Army, what did they have you doing while you were in??
Ah. Have a cousin who did that. I was a 98C Signals Intelligence Analyst. Best job I ever had because I was basically a professional figure-outer.
Though funny enough, I've spent about 75% my whole career since I got out on Lackland and working with the AF in one form or another.
So you get to see all the trainees go from rainbow flights to their dress blues for graduation week! That's awesome. Basic was the best time I never wanna have again. By that I mean, the camaraderie you experience is utterly unique and is something you can't ever experience anywhere else, but everything else was... Well, a game called "You Lose."
The biggest problem I see with CF games, especially MMOS. is this: You put your idea out there and you manage to get the funding and keep the funding coming in while you develop. And lets say you make it all the way to release (This has never happened yet.......ever) but, then what?
You now owe a product to people who have already paid you. How can you fund your ongoing MMORPG? Subs? Cash Shops? These things are tough for fully funded studios, now you want to have an indie studio try this with no revenue?
There is 1 potential example of this possibility happening, and most likely never ever happen twice.
In a nut shell, you have already sold your product to the people who would be interested. MMOS don't get bigger as time passes anymore. The game is over before it starts......Literally.
What I am about to sat is purely theoretical.
But, as the idea is that as the MMO gets closer to release, ideally it will build more hype. and more people will look into it, there is a portion of the gamer population that will not buy an MMO that is not at the very least publicly accessible.
So they would get some of those people to buy in after launch.
Now as for their existing players, no doubt the people that had the money to invest into the game before it was a game, would also buy into the game after it becomes a game.
Also games do grow, or at the very least have a turnover, as such, as long as new people are coming in, as the old ones leave, they stand to make a continual profit off that turnover.
So it's not anywhere near dead ended at launch.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The biggest problem I see with CF games, especially MMOS. is this: You put your idea out there and you manage to get the funding and keep the funding coming in while you develop. And lets say you make it all the way to release (This has never happened yet.......ever) but, then what?
You now owe a product to people who have already paid you. How can you fund your ongoing MMORPG? Subs? Cash Shops? These things are tough for fully funded studios, now you want to have an indie studio try this with no revenue?
There is 1 potential example of this possibility happening, and most likely never ever happen twice.
In a nut shell, you have already sold your product to the people who would be interested. MMOS don't get bigger as time passes anymore. The game is over before it starts......Literally.
What I am about to sat is purely theoretical.
But, as the idea is that as the MMO gets closer to release, ideally it will build more hype. and more people will look into it, there is a portion of the gamer population that will not buy an MMO that is not at the very least publicly accessible.
So they would get some of those people to buy in after launch.
Now as for their existing players, no doubt the people that had the money to invest into the game before it was a game, would also buy into the game after it becomes a game.
Also games do grow, or at the very least have a turnover, as such, as long as new people are coming in, as the old ones leave, they stand to make a continual profit off that turnover.
So it's not anywhere near dead ended at launch.
It's going to be even harder for crowdfunded MMORPGs to find footing if they make a bad entrance, ala SotA. You then have to largely depend on the continued goodwill of whales to keep development going.
Crowd funding will probably end up like investment projects that guarantee a good return on your money based on an appealing package, with an included snippet stating no investment is 100% guaranteed and you could lose everything.
So after enough people get burned it will become regulated like investment projects and just like those projects people will continue to get burned, especially if they don't do their homework on the person or team making the presentation and let their emotions rule over their critical thinking abilities and desires. Yes, some do succeed but the percentages are usually small.
One problems with games is that the work in progress can change to a large degree when compared to what was shown in the initial presentation. They started out talking about making one type of game then change it to another during development. So the game you signed up for may probably not be the game you actually get.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I guess one of the reasons CF does not ring alarm bells for me is the CF for table top RPG books and PDF's. It takes years for such a game to come out but they always come out (far as I know) and the majority are very good. But it seems a poorer fit for MMO's, as the potential for producing a dud is far greater in MMO land.
Crowdfunding is a great thing for small projects made by just a few people that can't afford making it on their own. When projects become larger and you need to have a decent sized company it becomes just one of many ways to monetize the development.
With many projects its not really crowdfunding because crowds just pay a smaller part of the sum, the other is paid by regular investors. For divinity OS1 to happen they needed investments from outsiders because kickstarter money simply wasn't enough. For divinity OS2 they already had the money which meant they never needed to go to kickstarter in the first place which made it a pre-purchase and not crowdfunding.
Steam early access is not crowdfunding, its a purchase of a product as it is right now. The same thing goes for other companies where you pay for alpha and beta products. Its a psychological play where they want you to feel invested in the project where it would never happen because of you. People have paid for beta access since forever, its just now that it has become properly monetized.
I have pledged for a few games on kickstarter and fig but I view them all as pre-purchases at a nice discount and it has nothing to do with donations. I would have purchased games like divinity OS1-2, poe2, wasteland 3, bards tale 4 anyway, unless they completed screwed up development on those games.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
So you get to see all the trainees go from rainbow flights to their dress blues for graduation week! That's awesome. Basic was the best time I never wanna have again. By that I mean, the camaraderie you experience is utterly unique and is something you can't ever experience anywhere else, but everything else was... Well, a game called "You Lose."
lol Well, let me help you transition to the "You Win" game. It's a lot more fun.
I operate a couple nonprofits that help service members transition into the cyber/it industries. If you're in San Antonio or willing to relocate, hit me up in a PM. I'll give you my contact info and can help you put together a game-plan. If you never had a chance to experience it outside of Basic, you missed something. It's a great city, I think.
The biggest problem I see with CF games, especially MMOS. is this: You put your idea out there and you manage to get the funding and keep the funding coming in while you develop. And lets say you make it all the way to release (This has never happened yet.......ever) but, then what?
You now owe a product to people who have already paid you. How can you fund your ongoing MMORPG? Subs? Cash Shops? These things are tough for fully funded studios, now you want to have an indie studio try this with no revenue?
There is 1 potential example of this possibility happening, and most likely never ever happen twice.
In a nut shell, you have already sold your product to the people who would be interested. MMOS don't get bigger as time passes anymore. The game is over before it starts......Literally.
What I am about to sat is purely theoretical.
But, as the idea is that as the MMO gets closer to release, ideally it will build more hype. and more people will look into it, there is a portion of the gamer population that will not buy an MMO that is not at the very least publicly accessible.
So they would get some of those people to buy in after launch.
Now as for their existing players, no doubt the people that had the money to invest into the game before it was a game, would also buy into the game after it becomes a game.
Also games do grow, or at the very least have a turnover, as such, as long as new people are coming in, as the old ones leave, they stand to make a continual profit off that turnover.
So it's not anywhere near dead ended at launch.
It's going to be even harder for crowdfunded MMORPGs to find footing if they make a bad entrance, ala SotA. You then have to largely depend on the continued goodwill of whales to keep development going.
Well yah.. Obviously if they trip over their own feet trying to get out for launch.. they are fucked.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I agree with others that have stated that there is a good chance that much of the funding given for crowdfunded MMO's will be the majority of what they are going to get. Star Citizen is a great example. They will need to have a Stellar launch to draw more people in. I am sure that it will happen someday, but what happens if it isn't great..... do you think the people that have put money in will continue to do so?
Crowd funding is a bad idea. Not just for MMOs but generally. The amount of funds generated is always based on the amount of hype and not reality. Just look at scams like 'solar freakin roadways' and various self filing water projects including the 'Fontus self filling water bottle '. Reality doesn't temper enthusiasm, and excitement equals dollars.
Crowd funding will always be a swamp of scam artists and the deluded.
An what do ya do when ya might have educated yourself as best ya can an thought hard about what ya could afford to lose but ya run into a conman?
I grew up with richard garriott man. I thought he had a whole career provin his vision. So when shroud came to kickstarter and promised us a game in the style of those early ultimas I was all aboard. So were so many of us.
But it was a lie. They were buildin a f2p MMO right from tha start. The kickstarter even said it would never be an mmo. But it was. Ya can talk about donations and gamblin an all that but even if the game turned out to be ass if it were buy to own like early ultimas we could at least have kept it. At the time we backed we were promised wed get and keep something.
But as an MMO ya cant mod and when the servers go off we lose everything. How exactly was anyone supposed to have wisely educated themselves and avoided takin that loss when it was impossible ta have the game taken from ya under tha model we were falsely sold?
I notice red thomas doesn't mention shroud in his article. Ya do mention star citizen though. Everythin wrong with star citizen went wrong with shroud but ya wouldnt know it from this. Red thomas has been a noticeable booster for shroud in his entire time here though. So how is anyone supposed to educate themselves when the media plays favorites like this?
How do even wise people know how secure tha development is when ya have shifty developers like portalarium who pull the risks section from their seedinvest? And dont declare their board members sit on the seedinvest board too? How do ya get the word out when they ban anyone from their forums an even tha game when they are critical of how bad the development has gone?
Some of ya talk about people taking responsibility for their lives but refuse to address tha imbalance of power in life. Fuck man ya can be totally in the right but be black in the wrong time an place. Ya know what im talking about. Thats why we have laws which are supposed ta fairly address that stuff. Lady justice ya know? Because we the people need something else cuz we sure as hell dont act like that ourselves.
Crowd fundin is bad now because too many people are thinkin they can run through the holes in the law and blame the victim for fallin for their scams when we should be sayin this stuff aint right and should stop. And as people wont or cant stop it and not everyone can avoid it happenin to them we should be bringing in means to protect them.
Not tellin them they dont understand what happened to them.
Comments
Off the the top of my head we’ve had SotA, The Exlied and Albion reach launch. We’ve had Pathfinder each a “no wipe” stage. None have shown there are people waiting in the wings.
Pre-selling the game and years of perks to your fanbase and using all the money just to get to launch is a bad setup.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Investors might worry about return on investment, but there's a concept of 'return on effort', also. Working 4 hours for $1000 might be great; working 4 years for $1000 isn't. Many of the people building these games will want compensation for the time they put into that game. If they aren't, we will be calling them ex-developers soon. Then who's going to build the next game we want to play?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
EDIT- for a clear analogy, implying booster clubs are in the same realm as Kickstarter MMORPG projects is akin to accusing a high school football booster club of profiteering because they're selling cookies for a dollar each.
Do some research and only fund people that have both a good idea and a competent team that can pull it off. Just like any other investment.
It may not matter as much how many people that will play a crowdfunded MMO but they still need enough playerbase to keep the game running and updated after launch so don't fund projects that don't have the potential to keep 50K or so players running either so you don't fund something that will be gone a few months after launch.
Odds are pretty good any money you give to him isn't going towards what the sign says.
It's a lot like the higher education system, mostly the students are there to keep the educators employed... crowd funding keeps the unemployed developers et al erstwhile occupied until another real gig comes along. Given the choice of a real gig versus a crowdfunded project, I'd wager 99% of them would take the real gig. They aren't really here to make the game you want, they're only here for the paycheck.
I was responding to an earlier point about Kickstarter suggestions for rewards by pointing out that ensuring gifts related to donations had relative value. The better examples would be the patreon and twitch tiers, which are clearly donations. I just didn't think of them until later.
What was your AFSC?
You put your idea out there and you manage to get the funding and keep the funding coming in while you develop. And lets say you make it all the way to release (This has never happened yet.......ever) but, then what?
You now owe a product to people who have already paid you. How can you fund your ongoing MMORPG? Subs? Cash Shops? These things are tough for fully funded studios, now you want to have an indie studio try this with no revenue?
There is 1 potential example of this possibility happening, and most likely never ever happen twice.
In a nut shell, you have already sold your product to the people who would be interested. MMOS don't get bigger as time passes anymore. The game is over before it starts......Literally.
Though funny enough, I've spent about 75% my whole career since I got out on Lackland and working with the AF in one form or another.
It's a gamble.. a donation is when you have an assured thing, like donating money to a soup kitchen, you know they will at least give out soup.
With an MMO, you do not have that, You are taking a complete and total gamble on if they are even able to pull this off at all.
You are betting they can do this, but all you are investing into is the attempt.
If you have not embraced fully they might fail, then you really have no place sitting at the gamblers table.
But, as the idea is that as the MMO gets closer to release, ideally it will build more hype. and more people will look into it, there is a portion of the gamer population that will not buy an MMO that is not at the very least publicly accessible.
So they would get some of those people to buy in after launch.
Now as for their existing players, no doubt the people that had the money to invest into the game before it was a game, would also buy into the game after it becomes a game.
Also games do grow, or at the very least have a turnover, as such, as long as new people are coming in, as the old ones leave, they stand to make a continual profit off that turnover.
So it's not anywhere near dead ended at launch.
So after enough people get burned it will become regulated like investment projects and just like those projects people will continue to get burned, especially if they don't do their homework on the person or team making the presentation and let their emotions rule over their critical thinking abilities and desires. Yes, some do succeed but the percentages are usually small.
One problems with games is that the work in progress can change to a large degree when compared to what was shown in the initial presentation. They started out talking about making one type of game then change it to another during development. So the game you signed up for may probably not be the game you actually get.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
With many projects its not really crowdfunding because crowds just pay a smaller part of the sum, the other is paid by regular investors. For divinity OS1 to happen they needed investments from outsiders because kickstarter money simply wasn't enough. For divinity OS2 they already had the money which meant they never needed to go to kickstarter in the first place which made it a pre-purchase and not crowdfunding.
Steam early access is not crowdfunding, its a purchase of a product as it is right now. The same thing goes for other companies where you pay for alpha and beta products. Its a psychological play where they want you to feel invested in the project where it would never happen because of you. People have paid for beta access since forever, its just now that it has become properly monetized.
I have pledged for a few games on kickstarter and fig but I view them all as pre-purchases at a nice discount and it has nothing to do with donations. I would have purchased games like divinity OS1-2, poe2, wasteland 3, bards tale 4 anyway, unless they completed screwed up development on those games.
I operate a couple nonprofits that help service members transition into the cyber/it industries. If you're in San Antonio or willing to relocate, hit me up in a PM. I'll give you my contact info and can help you put together a game-plan. If you never had a chance to experience it outside of Basic, you missed something. It's a great city, I think.
Crowd funding will always be a swamp of scam artists and the deluded.
I grew up with richard garriott man. I thought he had a whole career provin his vision. So when shroud came to kickstarter and promised us a game in the style of those early ultimas I was all aboard. So were so many of us.
But it was a lie. They were buildin a f2p MMO right from tha start. The kickstarter even said it would never be an mmo. But it was. Ya can talk about donations and gamblin an all that but even if the game turned out to be ass if it were buy to own like early ultimas we could at least have kept it. At the time we backed we were promised wed get and keep something.
But as an MMO ya cant mod and when the servers go off we lose everything. How exactly was anyone supposed to have wisely educated themselves and avoided takin that loss when it was impossible ta have the game taken from ya under tha model we were falsely sold?
I notice red thomas doesn't mention shroud in his article. Ya do mention star citizen though. Everythin wrong with star citizen went wrong with shroud but ya wouldnt know it from this. Red thomas has been a noticeable booster for shroud in his entire time here though. So how is anyone supposed to educate themselves when the media plays favorites like this?
How do even wise people know how secure tha development is when ya have shifty developers like portalarium who pull the risks section from their seedinvest? And dont declare their board members sit on the seedinvest board too? How do ya get the word out when they ban anyone from their forums an even tha game when they are critical of how bad the development has gone?
Some of ya talk about people taking responsibility for their lives but refuse to address tha imbalance of power in life. Fuck man ya can be totally in the right but be black in the wrong time an place. Ya know what im talking about. Thats why we have laws which are supposed ta fairly address that stuff. Lady justice ya know? Because we the people need something else cuz we sure as hell dont act like that ourselves.
Crowd fundin is bad now because too many people are thinkin they can run through the holes in the law and blame the victim for fallin for their scams when we should be sayin this stuff aint right and should stop. And as people wont or cant stop it and not everyone can avoid it happenin to them we should be bringing in means to protect them.
Not tellin them they dont understand what happened to them.