No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Not even sure what you're trying to say with this, to be honest. Nothing about your statement is relevant to my post. Microtransactions are popular among companies for a couple of reasons:
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.
My point was to use two games to compare using a Micro-Transaction systems vs using a flat Sub System. As such, I used to popular games, GW2, and WoW, to try and understand what the advantage of Micro-transaction vs the Sub.
Both MMO's give around the same Open World game experience, all classes, races, and content is included with the Box Cost. Quests, Dungeons, and more, all included.
So on top of making a fully fleshed out and engaging game, the Micro-Transaction method also requires the company to make additional content for them to sell, where the Sub based game does not. So, at the end of the day, the Micro Transaction system requires more work.
On top of that, they still only make 1/3 of what they could have made if they just put out a Sub.
Why would anyone go Micro-transaction knowing that?
Which brings us to what you know, well I hate to break it to you, but, you have been mislead, in fact, many games were struggling to survive which is why older games went the F2P/Micro-Transaction route to stay alive. Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online being a prime example of this.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
Well, in real life, the Knitting forum I am on is pretty cutthroat... say the wrong thing and they will stab a bitch with a #9 needle. The Car building forum, on the other hand is pretty supportive and not nearly as ruthless.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
It does matter, especially in the game's beginning, when these P2W cash shop items are being sold. It's all supply and demand. If you're the only blacksmith that can make the best sword, what do you think a king is going to pay for an exclusive supply?
In Vanguard crafting had its own leveling path, just like adventuring and diplomacy. The players that focused on crafting first and reached max level, were able to charge whatever they wanted to the adventurer players, because no one else could craft the best stuff at the time. It took just as many hours to max out a crafting profession as it took to level up to 50 in adventuring. Needless to say, the early crafters became very wealthy.
When the rest of the players leveled crafting after having done adventuring first, there was too much competition and crafting prices were basically at cost.
This ^, perhaps Ungood hasn't played that many mmos. Also the discovery mention on vgplayers for vanguard and so on. First to make banded on new tlps or new servers in eq1 ( back in the days ) made tons of money for a nice headstart.
Like hell.. The only crafting discipline that was profitable in EQ1 was jewelry, as the best armor and weapons, even while leveling up, was Looted, not made.
Looks like you were not there at the beginning then. On the CoE issue. This is SC in a fantasy-setting, all promises, no delivery it seems.
I played EQ day 1 live.. and I stand by what I said. Crafting was shit outside Jewelry, so whatever you heard.. you heard wrong.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Not even sure what you're trying to say with this, to be honest. Nothing about your statement is relevant to my post. Microtransactions are popular among companies for a couple of reasons:
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.
My point was to use two games to compare using a Micro-Transaction systems vs using a flat Sub System. As such, I used to popular games, GW2, and WoW, to try and understand what the advantage of Micro-transaction vs the Sub.
Both MMO's give around the same Open World game experience, all classes, races, and content is included with the Box Cost. Quests, Dungeons, and more, all included.
So on top of making a fully fleshed out and engaging game, the Micro-Transaction method also requires the company to make additional content for them to sell, where the Sub based game does not. So, at the end of the day, the Micro Transaction system requires more work.
On top of that, they still only make 1/3 of what they could have made if they just put out a Sub.
Why would anyone go Micro-transaction knowing that?
Which brings us to what you know, well I hate to break it to you, but, you have been mislead, in fact, many games were struggling to survive which is why older games went the F2P/Micro-Transaction route to stay alive. Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online being a prime example of this.
I'm confused,
F2p games earn 1/3 of a sub based game and take more effort(due to the additional content needed) So games struggling to survive on a sub basis went F2p for less income for more effort?
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Not even sure what you're trying to say with this, to be honest. Nothing about your statement is relevant to my post. Microtransactions are popular among companies for a couple of reasons:
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.
My point was to use two games to compare using a Micro-Transaction systems vs using a flat Sub System. As such, I used to popular games, GW2, and WoW, to try and understand what the advantage of Micro-transaction vs the Sub.
Both MMO's give around the same Open World game experience, all classes, races, and content is included with the Box Cost. Quests, Dungeons, and more, all included.
So on top of making a fully fleshed out and engaging game, the Micro-Transaction method also requires the company to make additional content for them to sell, where the Sub based game does not. So, at the end of the day, the Micro Transaction system requires more work.
On top of that, they still only make 1/3 of what they could have made if they just put out a Sub.
Why would anyone go Micro-transaction knowing that?
Which brings us to what you know, well I hate to break it to you, but, you have been mislead, in fact, many games were struggling to survive which is why older games went the F2P/Micro-Transaction route to stay alive. Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online being a prime example of this.
I'm confused,
F2p games earn 1/3 of a sub based game and take more effort(due to the additional content needed) So games struggling to survive on a sub basis went F2p for less income for more effort?
Is that what your saying?
I think he is from an alternate reality.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
Well, in real life, the Knitting forum I am on is pretty cutthroat... say the wrong thing and they will stab a bitch with a #9 needle. The Car building forum, on the other hand is pretty supportive and not nearly as ruthless.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
It does matter, especially in the game's beginning, when these P2W cash shop items are being sold. It's all supply and demand. If you're the only blacksmith that can make the best sword, what do you think a king is going to pay for an exclusive supply?
In Vanguard crafting had its own leveling path, just like adventuring and diplomacy. The players that focused on crafting first and reached max level, were able to charge whatever they wanted to the adventurer players, because no one else could craft the best stuff at the time. It took just as many hours to max out a crafting profession as it took to level up to 50 in adventuring. Needless to say, the early crafters became very wealthy.
When the rest of the players leveled crafting after having done adventuring first, there was too much competition and crafting prices were basically at cost.
This ^, perhaps Ungood hasn't played that many mmos. Also the discovery mention on vgplayers for vanguard and so on. First to make banded on new tlps or new servers in eq1 ( back in the days ) made tons of money for a nice headstart.
Like hell.. The only crafting discipline that was profitable in EQ1 was jewelry, as the best armor and weapons, even while leveling up, was Looted, not made.
Looks like you were not there at the beginning then. On the CoE issue. This is SC in a fantasy-setting, all promises, no delivery it seems.
I played EQ day 1 live.. and I stand by what I said. Crafting was shit outside Jewelry, so whatever you heard.. you heard wrong.
Doubt it, played from beta and on up until PoP. Crafting was good on new servers and in the start. But as the game progressed, JC was on top. Then again when a new server restarted, the race for banded and making cash was still there. But from seing your stance on other issues, I am pretty sure once you made up your mind thats the truth, so further discussions are not necessary
So you basically just proved his point. A temporary high does not equal sustained superiority.
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Not even sure what you're trying to say with this, to be honest. Nothing about your statement is relevant to my post. Microtransactions are popular among companies for a couple of reasons:
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.
My point was to use two games to compare using a Micro-Transaction systems vs using a flat Sub System. As such, I used to popular games, GW2, and WoW, to try and understand what the advantage of Micro-transaction vs the Sub.
Both MMO's give around the same Open World game experience, all classes, races, and content is included with the Box Cost. Quests, Dungeons, and more, all included.
So on top of making a fully fleshed out and engaging game, the Micro-Transaction method also requires the company to make additional content for them to sell, where the Sub based game does not. So, at the end of the day, the Micro Transaction system requires more work.
On top of that, they still only make 1/3 of what they could have made if they just put out a Sub.
Why would anyone go Micro-transaction knowing that?
Which brings us to what you know, well I hate to break it to you, but, you have been mislead, in fact, many games were struggling to survive which is why older games went the F2P/Micro-Transaction route to stay alive. Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online being a prime example of this.
I'm confused,
F2p games earn 1/3 of a sub based game and take more effort(due to the additional content needed) So games struggling to survive on a sub basis went F2p for less income for more effort?
Is that what your saying?
Do not engage. Warning. Do not engage.
It's the "No Win" scenario
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Not even sure what you're trying to say with this, to be honest. Nothing about your statement is relevant to my post. Microtransactions are popular among companies for a couple of reasons:
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.
My point was to use two games to compare using a Micro-Transaction systems vs using a flat Sub System. As such, I used to popular games, GW2, and WoW, to try and understand what the advantage of Micro-transaction vs the Sub.
Both MMO's give around the same Open World game experience, all classes, races, and content is included with the Box Cost. Quests, Dungeons, and more, all included.
So on top of making a fully fleshed out and engaging game, the Micro-Transaction method also requires the company to make additional content for them to sell, where the Sub based game does not. So, at the end of the day, the Micro Transaction system requires more work.
On top of that, they still only make 1/3 of what they could have made if they just put out a Sub.
Why would anyone go Micro-transaction knowing that?
Which brings us to what you know, well I hate to break it to you, but, you have been mislead, in fact, many games were struggling to survive which is why older games went the F2P/Micro-Transaction route to stay alive. Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online being a prime example of this.
I'm confused,
F2p games earn 1/3 of a sub based game and take more effort(due to the additional content needed) So games struggling to survive on a sub basis went F2p for less income for more effort?
Is that what your saying?
Do not engage. Warning. Do not engage.
It's the "No Win" scenario
Brace yourselves for another 'argument for argument's sake'.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Mmhmm... please tell me, what is the purpose of the game then? Whatever you come up with, it can be bought in their cash shop.
The purpose of the game is to have fun. And for some that will be simply exploring, others it will be PvP and others crafting. None of these things are advantaged by being noble.
The vast majority of the player base do not want to be guild leader and for the most part that is what nobility positions are. Obviously if you want to be a grand leader of a kingdom etc then yes the person that bought a title has an advantage over you. But that will not effect the vast majority.
Clearly, since you have twisted the meaning of the word so much that it has no relevance to the game.
The meaning of the word per Merriam-Webster: 1. superiority of position or condition
The "minority" of players being established as the rulers of the land before launch... NAH... that's not a favorable or superior position right? Who's REALLY trying to twist the meaning of the word here?
That's not even touching all the in-game items, pets, mounts, weapons/armor, resources, blueprints etc... that you can buy for real cash and use AFTER launch.
See above. Nobility only effects those that have delusions of grandeur regarding their fantasy empires/kingdoms. Anyone not a guild leader or officer can play their game undisadvantaged by those evil nobles.
Mmhmm... please tell me, what is the purpose of the game then? Whatever you come up with, it can be bought in their cash shop.
The purpose of the game is to have fun. And for some that will be simply exploring, others it will be PvP and others crafting. None of these things are advantaged by being noble.
The vast majority of the player base do not want to be guild leader and for the most part that is what nobility positions are. Obviously if you want to be a grand leader of a kingdom etc then yes the person that bought a title has an advantage over you. But that will not effect the vast majority.
Clearly, since you have twisted the meaning of the word so much that it has no relevance to the game.
The meaning of the word per Merriam-Webster: 1. superiority of position or condition
The "minority" of players being established as the rulers of the land before launch... NAH... that's not a favorable or superior position right? Who's REALLY trying to twist the meaning of the word here?
That's not even touching all the in-game items, pets, mounts, weapons/armor, resources, blueprints etc... that you can buy for real cash and use AFTER launch.
See above. Nobility only effects those that have delusions of grandeur regarding their fantasy empires/kingdoms. Anyone not a guild leader or officer can play their game undisadvantaged by those evil nobles.
If you ever played a territory control MMORPG such as EVE I suspect you might feel a bit differently.
When / if it ever launches we'll see how it all plays out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you ever played a territory control MMORPG such as EVE I suspect you might feel a bit differently.
When / if it ever launches we'll see how it all plays out.
I know what you are trying to say, ie that individual players take pride/purpose in their guild/corp etc.
A player's individual play/competitiveness is unaffected by being a non-noble vs being a noble. And that was what the original stink was all about, that people can buy a title. Maybe a group will have an advantage over another but people can change groups. I really do not see why we should be concerned which groups those are.
A bit more on topic for the thread, it seems cashflow for July has fallen off a cliff...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A bit more on topic for the thread, it seems cashflow for July has fallen off a cliff...
Which is why IMHO, the next Event/Sale is focused on recruiting new people to squeeze for cash. The old ones seem to have hit the threshold of how much they will pay for jpegs of pets, boats, etc... Seriously, take a look at all the jpeg/digital items they have pre-sold since the kickstarter. The list is amazing. I think they said they have 15k accounts (not players.. as many have 2,3,10 accounts). But just dividing the money by the accounts gets us around $300 per. How much more can you honestly expect people to pay for a game that hasn't hit a deadline, but more importantly hasn't even reached a point where they have had a backer in Alpha yet?
And sadly, even the Event/Sale is delayed. Seems to me this is just a microcosm of whats wrong with the whole development. They are investing Dev Resources into the gamification of their Event/Sale and making it overly complicated with different classes, skills/abilities, tiers, plagued/saved tokens... Don't they ALREADY have a bunch of stuff they should be working on? Like the VoxElyria (Minecraft) stuff which is months behind even their revised, revised timeline (What a total waste of limited resources that is proving to be IMHO...), like Kingdoms of Elyria minigame, like the singleplayer/small group Prelude, like the Adventure Toolkit which is supposed to let you be a GM and run friends through the Prelude and make modules (supposed to be available in Alpha 2), like pretty much ANYTHING they have promised other than updating the website and making sales?
It seems that Caspien has these ideas all the time, and he genuinely seems to be a creative guy... but what is utterly lacking is someone to play the "adult" and keep him on task and on track. IMHO he is like a squirrel that cannot resist chasing the new nut they see. VYE was supposed to be that person, but from what I see either her influence is waning or it never really existed. At least that is what it seems like to me. Either way, he desperately needs help steering this ship or I see it going down in the rough waters that lay ahead.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A decline in sales!!!?!??! What's next, a going out of business sale?
I don’t think anyone wants that. I just wish they would take some steps to prevent it. $300 average per account is a lot of money to have raised. Realistically they need different sources of income. They need to show tangible progress.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A decline in sales!!!?!??! What's next, a going out of business sale?
I don’t think anyone wants that. I just wish they would take some steps to prevent it. $300 average per account is a lot of money to have raised. Realistically they need different sources of income. They need to show tangible progress.
Something positive is definitely needed to push this along. Progress in the game engine/systems/mechanisms would be ideal; something that could be demonstrated to the public. Not another sale.
What happened to all the hullabaloo about crafting? We've seen a narrative description of how they want smithing to work. What about a similar breakdown for tailoring, or potion making, or other skills they want to include? Surely, there's a high-level description for each of those subsystems to serve as a development guideline. Maybe they could release something like that.
Soulbound and fans are quick to point out how much this project has attracted. What I'd really love to see is a similar list of expenses and expenditures. That's something their financial backers will want to see. But, it would also be useful to help the community understand exactly what factors into a major game development project.
I understand financial details like that may not be something a company wants to release to the general public, but eventually, I'd like to see what they are spending their money on. When I planned an MMORPG in 2002, I came up with a budget figure of around $7 million over 5 years. I've always wanted to know how solid my numbers were. Certainly, other potential game developers could use a case study of an actual game development project rather than vague rumors about 'EQ1 was built with $2M/15M/whatever'.
Edit: Corrected the company name from yet another senior moment. *sigh*
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
A decline in sales!!!?!??! What's next, a going out of business sale?
I don’t think anyone wants that. I just wish they would take some steps to prevent it. $300 average per account is a lot of money to have raised. Realistically they need different sources of income. They need to show tangible progress.
Something positive is definitely needed to push this along. Progress in the game engine/systems/mechanisms would be ideal; something that could be demonstrated to the public. Not another sale.
What happened to all the hullabaloo about crafting? We've seen a narrative description of how they want smithing to work. What about a similar breakdown for tailoring, or potion making, or other skills they want to include? Surely, there's a high-level description for each of those subsystems to serve as a development guideline. Maybe they could release something like that.
Soulbound and fans are quick to point out how much this project has attracted. What I'd really love to see is a similar list of expenses and expenditures. That's something their financial backers will want to see. But, it would also be useful to help the community understand exactly what factors into a major game development project.
I understand financial details like that may not be something a company wants to release to the general public, but eventually, I'd like to see what they are spending their money on. When I planned an MMORPG in 2002, I came up with a budget figure of around $7 million over 5 years. I've always wanted to know how solid my numbers were. Certainly, other potential game developers could use a case study of an actual game development project rather than vague rumors about 'EQ1 was built with $2M/15M/whatever'.
Edit: Corrected the company name from yet another senior moment. *sigh*
Don't forget this nugget from the last time Caspien posted here:
All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January.
That was in October. Its now about to become August... I guess technically he didn't say January 2018 but it was inferred... It's not about a date being missed. It's about EVERY date being missed.. by a lot... with no end in sight.
They need an adult in the room to pull them away from the Ivory Tower fantasy land and into the land of reality and they need it to happen fast before it's too late.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If you ever played a territory control MMORPG such as EVE I suspect you might feel a bit differently.
When / if it ever launches we'll see how it all plays out.
I know what you are trying to say, ie that individual players take pride/purpose in their guild/corp etc.
A player's individual play/competitiveness is unaffected by being a non-noble vs being a noble. And that was what the original stink was all about, that people can buy a title. Maybe a group will have an advantage over another but people can change groups. I really do not see why we should be concerned which groups those are.
A bit more on topic for the thread, it seems cashflow for July has fallen off a cliff...
We are now just past the 50% mark for their big 6 week sales/event. The number raised is now $4,738,976. If I did the math right it would put the daily average since your last update at $4,222. Obviously better than the July number but still waaaaay down from what they were raising in prior months (down 40% from May...).
They have taken an active role in this event by giving hints on how they feel is the right way to play it, offering the ability to re-select roles, changing cash shop items to directly impact the results... and still the sales are not coming close to what they were seeing a few months ago.
Combine that will the low participation rate in the event and it just does not seem to be a healthy environment. Since we do not know what their burn rate is it's hard to say definitively how bad they need the cash but there are many warning flags out there now.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Looks like they are at $4,827,934 now. That's after their huge event/sale plus the followup (Festival of Passage made up Lore/sale) which just ended. By my calculations, that's $198,737 raised in 63 days... or $3155/day. This is about half what they averaged in the first half of the year and they have put a lot of effort into the Event/Sale...
Have they said anything in Discord about their financials?
I think people have finally grown bored with seeing "design documents" and "journals". It was about a year ago that Caspien was on these very forums talking about how players would soon be playing his VoxElyria pre-alpha... yet here we are... going into Oct.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As you already gathered there was a brief surge in August but it wasn't sustained. I want them to raise more money but this Plague/Purity thing is just stupid. Then again every little bit helps. How many people are still on the payroll?
Comments
Both MMO's give around the same Open World game experience, all classes, races, and content is included with the Box Cost. Quests, Dungeons, and more, all included.
So on top of making a fully fleshed out and engaging game, the Micro-Transaction method also requires the company to make additional content for them to sell, where the Sub based game does not. So, at the end of the day, the Micro Transaction system requires more work.
On top of that, they still only make 1/3 of what they could have made if they just put out a Sub.
Why would anyone go Micro-transaction knowing that?
Which brings us to what you know, well I hate to break it to you, but, you have been mislead, in fact, many games were struggling to survive which is why older games went the F2P/Micro-Transaction route to stay alive. Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online being a prime example of this.
F2p games earn 1/3 of a sub based game and take more effort(due to the additional content needed)
So games struggling to survive on a sub basis went F2p for less income for more effort?
Is that what your saying?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/So you basically just proved his point. A temporary high does not equal sustained superiority.
It's the "No Win" scenario
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The vast majority of the player base do not want to be guild leader and for the most part that is what nobility positions are. Obviously if you want to be a grand leader of a kingdom etc then yes the person that bought a title has an advantage over you. But that will not effect the vast majority.
See above. Nobility only effects those that have delusions of grandeur regarding their fantasy empires/kingdoms. Anyone not a guild leader or officer can play their game undisadvantaged by those evil nobles.
When / if it ever launches we'll see how it all plays out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A player's individual play/competitiveness is unaffected by being a non-noble vs being a noble. And that was what the original stink was all about, that people can buy a title. Maybe a group will have an advantage over another but people can change groups. I really do not see why we should be concerned which groups those are.
A bit more on topic for the thread, it seems cashflow for July has fallen off a cliff...
We'll see if sales pick up once the promotion gets rolling.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And sadly, even the Event/Sale is delayed. Seems to me this is just a microcosm of whats wrong with the whole development. They are investing Dev Resources into the gamification of their Event/Sale and making it overly complicated with different classes, skills/abilities, tiers, plagued/saved tokens... Don't they ALREADY have a bunch of stuff they should be working on? Like the VoxElyria (Minecraft) stuff which is months behind even their revised, revised timeline (What a total waste of limited resources that is proving to be IMHO...), like Kingdoms of Elyria minigame, like the singleplayer/small group Prelude, like the Adventure Toolkit which is supposed to let you be a GM and run friends through the Prelude and make modules (supposed to be available in Alpha 2), like pretty much ANYTHING they have promised other than updating the website and making sales?
It seems that Caspien has these ideas all the time, and he genuinely seems to be a creative guy... but what is utterly lacking is someone to play the "adult" and keep him on task and on track. IMHO he is like a squirrel that cannot resist chasing the new nut they see. VYE was supposed to be that person, but from what I see either her influence is waning or it never really existed. At least that is what it seems like to me. Either way, he desperately needs help steering this ship or I see it going down in the rough waters that lay ahead.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What happened to all the hullabaloo about crafting? We've seen a narrative description of how they want smithing to work. What about a similar breakdown for tailoring, or potion making, or other skills they want to include? Surely, there's a high-level description for each of those subsystems to serve as a development guideline. Maybe they could release something like that.
Soulbound and fans are quick to point out how much this project has attracted. What I'd really love to see is a similar list of expenses and expenditures. That's something their financial backers will want to see. But, it would also be useful to help the community understand exactly what factors into a major game development project.
I understand financial details like that may not be something a company wants to release to the general public, but eventually, I'd like to see what they are spending their money on. When I planned an MMORPG in 2002, I came up with a budget figure of around $7 million over 5 years. I've always wanted to know how solid my numbers were. Certainly, other potential game developers could use a case study of an actual game development project rather than vague rumors about 'EQ1 was built with $2M/15M/whatever'.
Edit: Corrected the company name from yet another senior moment. *sigh*
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January.
That was in October. Its now about to become August... I guess technically he didn't say January 2018 but it was inferred... It's not about a date being missed. It's about EVERY date being missed.. by a lot... with no end in sight.
They need an adult in the room to pull them away from the Ivory Tower fantasy land and into the land of reality and they need it to happen fast before it's too late.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Obviously better than the July number but still waaaaay down from what they were raising in prior months (down 40% from May...).
They have taken an active role in this event by giving hints on how they feel is the right way to play it, offering the ability to re-select roles, changing cash shop items to directly impact the results... and still the sales are not coming close to what they were seeing a few months ago.
Combine that will the low participation rate in the event and it just does not seem to be a healthy environment. Since we do not know what their burn rate is it's hard to say definitively how bad they need the cash but there are many warning flags out there now.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Looks like they are at $4,827,934 now. That's after their huge event/sale plus the followup (Festival of Passage made up Lore/sale) which just ended. By my calculations, that's $198,737 raised in 63 days... or $3155/day. This is about half what they averaged in the first half of the year and they have put a lot of effort into the Event/Sale...
Have they said anything in Discord about their financials?
I think people have finally grown bored with seeing "design documents" and "journals". It was about a year ago that Caspien was on these very forums talking about how players would soon be playing his VoxElyria pre-alpha... yet here we are... going into Oct.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As you already gathered there was a brief surge in August but it wasn't sustained. I want them to raise more money but this Plague/Purity thing is just stupid. Then again every little bit helps. How many people are still on the payroll?