Originally posted by EliasThorne Okay a couple of points, just because you disagree with a game approach (ie a time out box) that would not mean a "mass cancelation", it would mean you cancelled, and maybe a couple of your mates - which as you think ruining the fun of others is fun then I say no loss there. Second piont, in think 5 minutes it too little as that person would spend their entire jail term boiling the kettle - but yeah 30 mins may be harsh - 15-20 mins should be enough, a decent deterent but not enough to turn the game off, go into a hissy fit, spit your dummy so far and hard that it makes bullet holes in your cot and then cancel I don't think we need to go over yet again why ganking is a big deal so I wont bother onless my some goats come and rattle my bridge again
Maybe I'm not open to new ideas, but I can gaurentee that if Hero's Journey implemented a horrible penalty for griefing, and ganking that I would be selling Hero's Hall. That's just me, now lets talk about you.
I liked your comment about me 'canceling' my account. You act as if it would just be me if a system like the one you suggest were to be put in. I doubt it would, so this arguement is completely invalid. Now let us proceed with my arguement to you.
Do I care if this game has a huge player base? Not really, only for the fact for Hero's Hall to succeed, and do well. Do I hope for the best? Yes. Thats why I introduce new ideas on the Hero's Council forums from what my guild, fansite would like to see implemented. However, as long as the server that has the rules implemented that I enjoy has a full population I will be content.
And ganking is bad why again? I'd love to hear your reasoning just for the sake of argueing. Actually, you can either do one of a few choices. 1.) Ignore this post I made to you. 2.) Reply with your comments, or 3.) Message me AIM, or MSN and discuss this which I would be fine with.
Okay I'll respond point for point if you don't mind and maybe add a little bit on the end.
Unfortuetly I'm in a fairly good mood so this might not be quite the argument you're looking for
Originally posted by frostydf2 Maybe I'm not open to new ideas, but I can gaurentee that if Hero's Journey implemented a horrible penalty for griefing, and ganking that I would be selling Hero's Hall. That's just me, now lets talk about you.
The fact you say you're not open to good ideas is a little worrying, the gaming world is in constant flux and you should really learn to adapt or you'll be playing pong forever.
Selling Hero's Hall if you don't get you way - actually thats not a bad idea, it would be infinitly more preferable than keeping it as a forum to slate a game you once looked forward to so I appaud you for that.
I liked your comment about me 'canceling' my account. You act as if it would just be me if a system like the one you suggest were to be put in. I doubt it would, so this arguement is completely invalid. Now let us proceed with my arguement to you.
Thanks, I was feeling particularly sarcastic that day
Originally you said there would be a "mass cancelation", judging by some polls I've seen I don't think you point of view is popular enough to warrant a mass cancellation, yes you and your mates would leave, even a couple of hundred at a push but really I don't think there are that many that many people that find ruining the fun of others enjoyable (thankfully!)
Worth noting as well that I believe a similar system is in place in another Simutronics game (I forget which one) so there should be a fair few people who have a working knowledge of this - oh and it wasn't my idea in the first place, I just liked it.
Do I care if this game has a huge player base? Not really, only for the fact for Hero's Hall to succeed, and do well. Do I hope for the best? Yes. Thats why I introduce new ideas on the Hero's Council forums from what my guild, fansite would like to see implemented. However, as long as the server that has the rules implemented that I enjoy has a full population I will be content.
This worries me - so as I understand it you have a interest in the game, but you really want your website to be successful above and beyond that of the game itself!!
After reading that I also wonder if the ideas you put forward are the popular ones as suggested by your members or just the ones you agree with - I would be interested to hear from people on the Hero's Council to see if you ever said something to the effect of "Well, I don't agree with this but some of my members feel..." - personally I doubt it judging by your posts.
So as long as you get what you want ("the server that has the rules implemented that I enjoy") you're happy - now thats big of you
And ganking is bad why again? I'd love to hear your reasoning just for the sake of argueing. Actually, you can either do one of a few choices. 1.) Ignore this post I made to you. 2.) Reply with your comments, or 3.) Message me AIM, or MSN and discuss this which I would be fine with. AIM - shutter phs MSN - icydf2@hotmail.com I really don't have time (or inclination) to go into this in full but myself and others like me do not like to have our enjoyment spoilt by someone else - its as simple as that. Its been covered sooo many times before its not funny and doesn't need yet another one - I suggest using the search facility of this.
I took option two
Also, as for the sewers leading out, that would be really neat to have, and it would be fun. However, think of the long run. It would get old.
I agree, nice idea at first but unless there was variety it would get old quick (much like the gryphons of WoW)
Ran out of time to post any more...
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Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
And here goes my response. Hopefully the format wont be terribly bad, so you should still be able to read it. Originally posted by EliasThorne
Originally posted by EliasThorne
Originally posted by EliasThorne Okay I'll respond point for point if you don't mind and maybe add a little bit on the end. Unfortuetly I'm in a fairly good mood so this might not be quite the argument you're looking for
Originally posted by frostydf2 Maybe I'm not open to new ideas, but I can gaurentee that if Hero's Journey implemented a horrible penalty for griefing, and ganking that I would be selling Hero's Hall. That's just me, now lets talk about you. The fact you say you're not open to good ideas is a little worrying, the gaming world is in constant flux and you should really learn to adapt or you'll be playing pong forever. Selling Hero's Hall if you don't get you way - actually thats not a bad idea, it would be infinitly more preferable than keeping it as a forum to slate a game you once looked forward to so I appaud you for that.
I don't disagree with you that the gaming world is a constantly changing. In fact I hole-heartedly agree with you, and embrace the new ideas that are well thought out for the majority of the playing field.. The problem is, a system like the one mentioned wouldn't be in my best interest to keep pursueing the game.
However, we also shouldn't need to worry about this as different server rules will be designed for different servers. I'm sure their will be a server with harsh griefing rules for you to enjoy, and I'm also almost positive that their will be a server that sticks to the open PvP idea.
I liked your comment about me 'canceling' my account. You act as if it would just be me if a system like the one you suggest were to be put in. I doubt it would, so this arguement is completely invalid. Now let us proceed with my arguement to you.
Thanks, I was feeling particularly sarcastic that day Originally you said there would be a "mass cancelation", judging by some polls I've seen I don't think you point of view is popular enough to warrant a mass cancellation, yes you and your mates would leave, even a couple of hundred at a push but really I don't think there are that many that many people that find ruining the fun of others enjoyable (thankfully!) Worth noting as well that I believe a similar system is in place in another Simutronics game (I forget which one) so there should be a fair few people who have a working knowledge of this - oh and it wasn't my idea in the first place, I just liked it. I'm not in marketing, nor am I in business. I could be wrong, but from what I've read, and seen a large population of people enjoy open PvP. On my forums, a poll was taken and the majority was found that open PvP would be the best idea for a server. However, as I said above their will be multiple server rules as stated in Q&A's, so we shouldn't be worrying.It wasn't your idea, I was just dis-agreeing with your point of view. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this game succeed. I would also love to see Hero's Hall succeed a great deal as well. If I didn't belive I would enjoy the game, or embrace the ideas that Simutronics put out, do you think me, and my network would be making a Hero's Journey fansite? To succeed in my eyes would be to make a good game, not to have a huge player-base like WoW. You mixed them up I belive. So now we're going to comment on the Hero's Council huh? Sorry, but go ahead, and ask every Hero's Council member you know what exactly is going on in their, and they will tell you all the same answer. I havn't put any input into the Hero's Council becuase we havn't had a chance to discuss anything. When the time comes, I will be giving out the poll statistics, and ideas that have been put on my forums. In fact I see more ideas about new concepts on Hero's Hall then I do here. Where it is the same arguement over, and over. 'How to solve grinding', 'How to make crafting better', etc. Which also then disproves your theory that I don't embrace new ideas, and I don't like things to change.
Do I care if this game has a huge player base? Not really, only for the fact for Hero's Hall to succeed, and do well. Do I hope for the best? Yes. Thats why I introduce new ideas on the Hero's Council forums from what my guild, fansite would like to see implemented. However, as long as the server that has the rules implemented that I enjoy has a full population I will be content. This worries me - so as I understand it you have a interest in the game, but you really want your website to be successful above and beyond that of the game itself!! After reading that I also wonder if the ideas you put forward are the popular ones as suggested by your members or just the ones you agree with - I would be interested to hear from people on the Hero's Council to see if you ever said something to the effect of "Well, I don't agree with this but some of my members feel..." - personally I doubt it judging by your posts.
So as long as you get what you want ("the server that has the rules implemented that I enjoy") you're happy - now thats big of you Now about the server rules. I see where I went wrong in typing. I made myself sound selfish by saying 'I want this server, and I'll play on it.' That wasn't what I was going at. Simutronics has stated, as I have said above, that they will have multiple servers, with multiple server rules. I'll pick the server most closely related to the rules I enjoy, and if it is largely populated then awsome. Now about the server rules. I see where I went wrong in typing. I made myself sound selfish by saying 'I want this server, and I'll play on it.' That wasn't what I was going at. Simutronics has stated, as I have said above, that they will have multiple servers, with multiple server rules. I'll pick the server most closely related to the rules I enjoy, and if it is largely populated then awsome.
And ganking is bad why again? I'd love to hear your reasoning just for the sake of argueing. Actually, you can either do one of a few choices. 1.) Ignore this post I made to you. 2.) Reply with your comments, or 3.) Message me AIM, or MSN and discuss this which I would be fine with. AIM - shutter phs MSN - icydf2@hotmail.com I really don't have time (or inclination) to go into this in full but myself and others like me do not like to have our enjoyment spoilt by someone else - its as simple as that. Its been covered sooo many times before its not funny and doesn't need yet another one - I suggest using the search facility of this. I took option two I love it how people will always consider themselves to be on the inferior end. Even in a virtual world. I don't plan on being mediocre, and for those who like that then you probably wouldn't enjoy open PvP. It's a differnet cup of tea I presume, and I should respect your point of view, and I will. Multiple servers is fine by me. I love it how people will always consider themselves to be on the inferior end. Even in a virtual world. I don't plan on being mediocre, and for those who like that then you probably wouldn't enjoy open PvP. It's a differnet cup of tea I presume, and I should respect your point of view, and I will. Multiple servers is fine by me.
Also, as for the sewers leading out, that would be really neat to have, and it would be fun. However, think of the long run. It would get old. I agree, nice idea at first but unless there was variety it would get old quick (much like the gryphons of WoW) One last question, what server did you play on in FFXI
im not even sure you two are talking about the same things. Ganking in al the cases im familiar refers to the abuse of a death system. OPen PvP asside, abusing it as in killing someone multiple times on respawn or ressurection and so on... killing lowbies is just... low class and boring to boot(not really any challenge in killing lowbies).
i think the main point is that all things should be alowed but things should be balanced. when systems are proposed to be put in play that make it a litly more risky to gank and greif... all ive seen from you is frustration. are you against having any restrictions or systems to keep rampant senseless killing in check in any sense at all?? i mean lets be honest, an open PvP server was never meant for babys crawling around in the wilderness but it also doesnt mean that the game should CATER to people who feel the need to greif.
i think its a valid concern, it should be tolerated but creatively employed.
and about heros hall... ive been to your site and i will stick up for the creativity of ideas proposed and the general maturity of the community there. your a thoughtfull and definately engaged group of people... heck ive even considered Joining, but that doesnt trump the suspicion that i think you want a free for all world that you can exploit rather then to utilize. i plan on going to an open PvP server as well... and there better be some risk! i mean isnt that the point? but i think the big problems being discussed in this thread are mostly about dealing with people abusing the system... instead of utilizing it as it was intended.
If someone is notorious for killing people indescriminately and making alot of enemies, i think there should be more then just a simple responce from the player community. i think merchants shoudl react negatively, i think bounties should be put in place... and i think all manner of creative minds should keep trying to come up with other... FAIR.... penalties towards people who act in a disruptive manner, but i dont think the choice to act disruptive should be taken away... and neither should it be aloud to spread like an untamed wildfire.
You know, I would really love a good/neutral/evil/eccentric/whatever else kind of a system, where doing certain things will change that, and npcs would act accordingly.
Like if you're really really bad, of course some npcs just will ignore you (or maybe kill you?), or if you steal a lot maybe there will be guards that follow you in some towns where you get caught.. or if you're really good, some npcs will just give you things because they know how good you are, or if you're weird npcs will talk to you like they know you're weird but don't want you to think they think you're weird.
"Ganking" and"Griefing" should not be encouraged. I hear alot of PvPers that like to gank and grief say how they like the realism. But of course they don't waat any penalties for it either, which is very unrealistic. A more realistic way to have it would be something like this:
You want to gank and grief, fine. But there will nasty penalties. You murder someone, (remember it IS murder) the law goes after you. Most merchants don't sell to you, you can only deal with "shady" merchants. There is a bounty put on your head, and bounty hunters looking to bring your head in on a stick. Ah, now THAT is realism. Wanna be Billy Badd-Ass? Lets see how good you really are. Not that ganking or griefing takes any skill. It's for bottom feeders that can't handle a fair fight, or one where they might be at a disadvantage. Nothing but ingame bullies, and their behavior should not be rewarded.
I would like to point out that REAL PvPers dont gank, they want a real challenge. Real challenge being going up against evenly matched opponents. DAoC's RvR was great, nothing like going out and having my group take down 2-3 groups at a time. That is true PvP.Not jumping some guy that just finished a hard fight, has less than 25% of his health, and is 15 levels lower than you.
Originally posted by Morneblade "Ganking" and"Griefing" should not be encouraged. I hear alot of PvPers that like to gank and grief say how they like the realism. But of course they don't waat any penalties for it either, which is very unrealistic. A more realistic way to have it would be something like this: You want to gank and grief, fine. But there will nasty penalties. You murder someone, (remember it IS murder) the law goes after you. Most merchants don't sell to you, you can only deal with "shady" merchants. There is a bounty put on your head, and bounty hunters looking to bring your head in on a stick. Ah, now THAT is realism. Wanna be Billy Badd-Ass? Lets see how good you really are. Not that ganking or griefing takes any skill. It's for bottom feeders that can't handle a fair fight, or one where they might be at a disadvantage. Nothing but ingame bullies, and their behavior should not be rewarded. I would like to point out that REAL PvPers dont gank, they want a real challenge. Real challenge being going up against evenly matched opponents. DAoC's RvR was great, nothing like going out and having my group take down 2-3 groups at a time. That is true PvP.Not jumping some guy that just finished a hard fight, has less than 25% of his health, and is 15 levels lower than you. That is the act of a coward.
Here, here
Okay lets clear up a couple of things for Frosty here, I don't dislike PvP, in fact it can be fun - I just don't like cowards jumping me, nor especially do I want to have to travel everywhere with 30 paid bodyguards just to go about my daily business.
Different strokes and all that I guess, my hope is that HJ will cater to us both - my concern would be that they cave to your anarchistic view where gangs travel the lawless land attacking at whim, actually if they every make a Mad Max MMO I'll be sure to send you the link Frosty
Also I've nothing against Hero's Hall at all in fact I'm a member (Lumpsack) and its a great site, it just seemed like you were planning on quitting the site, its members and the game if you didn't get your way - understandable but just sounds a little childish the way it was put (or as a heard it, which may be more acurate)
I found the poll you mentioned - 10 wanted open PvP, 5 wanted zoned PvP and none wanted no PvP which supports your argument, but bear in mind how I've been arguing and I voted Zoned.
FF XI, hmn, not having researched but I suspect that was some sort of dig, no I didn't play that MMO at all - I think my signature might give away that little gem
Currently Playing:GW2 Currently Following:Elder Scrolls Online Games in my wake:Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
The other thing I find kinda odd about Frosty's comments is his references to WoW as "open PvP". Last time I checked, it was faction based. UO and Shadowbane are open, where anyone can attack anyone at anytime. DAoC has a server for it as well, and I think it is a pretty good messuring stick in how popular and important open PvP is. They started out with 2 servers,combined then to 1 server, and now it is the least populated server Mythic has. This, from a game where PvP is the endgame. Having some controls over PvP is NOT going to drive hoards of people away, but have no controls will. Any doubts on that, talk to Wolfpack Studios the developers of Shadowbane, who are now closing their doors forever.
Comments
Maybe I'm not open to new ideas, but I can gaurentee that if Hero's Journey implemented a horrible penalty for griefing, and ganking that I would be selling Hero's Hall. That's just me, now lets talk about you.
I liked your comment about me 'canceling' my account. You act as if it would just be me if a system like the one you suggest were to be put in. I doubt it would, so this arguement is completely invalid. Now let us proceed with my arguement to you.
Do I care if this game has a huge player base? Not really, only for the fact for Hero's Hall to succeed, and do well. Do I hope for the best? Yes. Thats why I introduce new ideas on the Hero's Council forums from what my guild, fansite would like to see implemented. However, as long as the server that has the rules implemented that I enjoy has a full population I will be content.
And ganking is bad why again? I'd love to hear your reasoning just for the sake of argueing. Actually, you can either do one of a few choices. 1.) Ignore this post I made to you. 2.) Reply with your comments, or 3.) Message me AIM, or MSN and discuss this which I would be fine with.
AIM - shutter phs
MSN - icydf2@hotmail.com
Also, as for the sewers leading out, that would be really neat to have, and it would be fun. However, think of the long run. It would get old.
Unfortuetly I'm in a fairly good mood so this might not be quite the argument you're looking for
Ran out of time to post any more...
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Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
im not even sure you two are talking about the same things. Ganking in al the cases im familiar refers to the abuse of a death system. OPen PvP asside, abusing it as in killing someone multiple times on respawn or ressurection and so on... killing lowbies is just... low class and boring to boot(not really any challenge in killing lowbies).
i think the main point is that all things should be alowed but things should be balanced. when systems are proposed to be put in play that make it a litly more risky to gank and greif... all ive seen from you is frustration. are you against having any restrictions or systems to keep rampant senseless killing in check in any sense at all?? i mean lets be honest, an open PvP server was never meant for babys crawling around in the wilderness but it also doesnt mean that the game should CATER to people who feel the need to greif.
i think its a valid concern, it should be tolerated but creatively employed.
and about heros hall... ive been to your site and i will stick up for the creativity of ideas proposed and the general maturity of the community there. your a thoughtfull and definately engaged group of people... heck ive even considered Joining, but that doesnt trump the suspicion that i think you want a free for all world that you can exploit rather then to utilize. i plan on going to an open PvP server as well... and there better be some risk! i mean isnt that the point? but i think the big problems being discussed in this thread are mostly about dealing with people abusing the system... instead of utilizing it as it was intended.
If someone is notorious for killing people indescriminately and making alot of enemies, i think there should be more then just a simple responce from the player community. i think merchants shoudl react negatively, i think bounties should be put in place... and i think all manner of creative minds should keep trying to come up with other... FAIR.... penalties towards people who act in a disruptive manner, but i dont think the choice to act disruptive should be taken away... and neither should it be aloud to spread like an untamed wildfire.
Be one with it.
You know, I would really love a good/neutral/evil/eccentric/whatever else kind of a system, where doing certain things will change that, and npcs would act accordingly.
Like if you're really really bad, of course some npcs just will ignore you (or maybe kill you?), or if you steal a lot maybe there will be guards that follow you in some towns where you get caught.. or if you're really good, some npcs will just give you things because they know how good you are, or if you're weird npcs will talk to you like they know you're weird but don't want you to think they think you're weird.
HJ-Diviana
Hero's Journey GM
Hero's Journey Official Site
Hero's Hall
"Ganking" and"Griefing" should not be encouraged. I hear alot of PvPers that like to gank and grief say how they like the realism. But of course they don't waat any penalties for it either, which is very unrealistic. A more realistic way to have it would be something like this:
You want to gank and grief, fine. But there will nasty penalties. You murder someone, (remember it IS murder) the law goes after you. Most merchants don't sell to you, you can only deal with "shady" merchants. There is a bounty put on your head, and bounty hunters looking to bring your head in on a stick. Ah, now THAT is realism. Wanna be Billy Badd-Ass? Lets see how good you really are. Not that ganking or griefing takes any skill. It's for bottom feeders that can't handle a fair fight, or one where they might be at a disadvantage. Nothing but ingame bullies, and their behavior should not be rewarded.
I would like to point out that REAL PvPers dont gank, they want a real challenge. Real challenge being going up against evenly matched opponents. DAoC's RvR was great, nothing like going out and having my group take down 2-3 groups at a time. That is true PvP.Not jumping some guy that just finished a hard fight, has less than 25% of his health, and is 15 levels lower than you.
That is the act of a coward.
Here, here
Okay lets clear up a couple of things for Frosty here, I don't dislike PvP, in fact it can be fun - I just don't like cowards jumping me, nor especially do I want to have to travel everywhere with 30 paid bodyguards just to go about my daily business.
Different strokes and all that I guess, my hope is that HJ will cater to us both - my concern would be that they cave to your anarchistic view where gangs travel the lawless land attacking at whim, actually if they every make a Mad Max MMO I'll be sure to send you the link Frosty
Also I've nothing against Hero's Hall at all in fact I'm a member (Lumpsack) and its a great site, it just seemed like you were planning on quitting the site, its members and the game if you didn't get your way - understandable but just sounds a little childish the way it was put (or as a heard it, which may be more acurate)
I found the poll you mentioned - 10 wanted open PvP, 5 wanted zoned PvP and none wanted no PvP which supports your argument, but bear in mind how I've been arguing and I voted Zoned.
FF XI, hmn, not having researched but I suspect that was some sort of dig, no I didn't play that MMO at all - I think my signature might give away that little gem
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW