Much different system. EVE skill-gated items and ships and tied that directly to real life time subbed. From what I understand of SC, there will be no such gating. If I'm understanding the game correctly, if you can buy the best in class ship and components, you can use them all just as effectively as someone who has had an account for a year.
SC will have its own sinks as it's rather standard, I highly doubt the high end "gear" either that is from ships to items, upgrades or crew, will accessible at will just with credits without having to go through late game content first.
SC already shows signs that it's going to do that with a reputation within factions and having that layer of progression to unlock specific gear instead.
They should, though I don't see them blocking off access to ships purchased with real cash in that manner. That would cause kind of a shitstorm.
They could go with a model like Warframe's, where a lot of gear is mastery rank locked, unless you payed for it, then you bypass the rank requrement.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They could go with a model like Warframe's, where a lot of gear is mastery rank locked, unless you payed for it, then you bypass the rank requrement.
This is already their direction. Details, however, is something for when this reputation/faction aspects of the actual progression in the game become fleshed out.
A cap used to exist on the amount of credits one could accumulate, recently that cap has been removed. Will people take advantage of this and amass a huge sum of credits for launch, you bet.
This will screw the economy, mark my words. It's not rocket science. For those that don't understand / see why this is a problem, I recommend the following video series on the history of paper money and hyperinflation in MMOs.
tl;dw: if I can put in a quarter and print some money any time I feel like it, the value of that money will go down.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
A cap used to exist on the amount of credits one could accumulate, recently that cap has been removed. Will people take advantage of this and amass a huge sum of credits for launch, you bet.
This will screw the economy, mark my words. It's not rocket science. For those that don't understand / see why this is a problem, I recommend the following video series on the history of paper money and hyperinflation in MMOs.
tl;dw: if I can put in a quarter and print some money any time I feel like it, the value of that money will go down.
Good thing most of us are spaceship pilots, traders, explorers or pirates then.
The question at hand was does removing the credit cap make SC (more) P2W, and we've been debating why this may or may not be true.
They always planned to one day remove it, so a discussion on the potential impact on the game's overall economy is better suited to another thread.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
“Removing Voyager Direct meant we had to re-balance the economy, and with a re-balance, we wanted to offer backers the ability to ‘melt’ past item purchases made at older, unbalanced prices back to UEC to allow them to spend it on buying items in game at the new re-balanced prices. Without removing the cap, backers who were melting and re-applying funds would eclipse the overall UEC cap and be locked into their previously purchased items. So we removed the overall cap, but kept the daily cap in place to give our backers options and flexibility. This was purely a development / platform decision and has nothing to do with marketing or sales and was made to not disadvantage people that had supported us over the years. This has been the case since the release of 3.2 on June 30 and everyone seemed pretty happy with this flexibility as being able to ‘melt’ items that were purchased on Voyager Direct has been a long-term request from our community. So, it’s a bit surprising to see some people paint this as an issue now, especially considering the context of the change and the general happiness our community had with it when it was first rolled out. But, hey, it’s the internet and people have to complain about something!”
“Another thought re: ‘Pay to Win’ – what is ‘win’ in Star Citizen? We have challenges and gameplay for everything from solo players with just an Aurora to a huge org. crewing an Idris. We’re making a ‘space sim’ – I don’t even know what you would qualify as ‘win.’ That’s the whole idea: you play how you want to play, and should be able to have fun in a number of ways. Just like in real life, there are multiple paths, and your own success is really measured on a personal level. Further, there will be nothing in the game that you can only purchase with money. You can’t buy better stats or skill, we don’t sell magic kill bullets and everything that you can purchase with real money (like ships or UEC) can be earned via gameplay. By allowing people to purchase ships or a limited amount of UEC, we’re just allowing people that want to support the project a way to do it (its expensive to build a game of this scope and its expensive to run the servers that people play on), while not preventing the person that has only bought the basic game package from playing, earning and upgrading their equipment and competing with people that have spent more than them. Every persistent online game has inequality in starting assets, even if there is no ability to purchase, as people start their game careers at different times. If you join Eve or WoW right now, you don’t have the experience, stats or assets that someone that has been playing for years. We don’t see the issue with some people starting Star Citizenwith different equipment, as long as everyone gets the opportunity to earn everything via gameplay, which they will.”
They are not saying anything that is not said since 2013 when the revenue model of currency microtransactions was announced, it would not be the cap that would suddenly change anything because you could put up 150$-200$ in a week in the game and just spend it. If creating one attractive currency microtransaction as the main revenue model of the game would allow them to cut on ship concepts/sales once UEC is actually integrated in-game, seems like a necessary evil, it worked for EvE and with the whole faction progression/reputation they seem to be going for they simply put high-tier stuff under progression to unlock first, not direct UEC purshase, will mitigate some issues.
I see two problems here: 1. The newer generation of gamers who play games only to complete them as fast as possible and 2. Companies that are looking to exploit that by offering shortcuts to the end in exchange for more money while in the process forgetting or not caring to add actual fun content that you wouldn't want to skip even if you could.
Fingers crossed CiG doesn't start skimping out on the content as mentioned in the latter of the two issues above.
They are not saying anything that is not said since 2013 when the revenue model of currency microtransactions was announced, it would not be the cap that would suddenly change anything because you could put up 150$-200$ in a week in the game and just spend it. If creating one attractive currency microtransaction as the main revenue model of the game would allow them to cut on ship concepts/sales once UEC is actually integrated in-game, seems like a necessary evil, it worked for EvE and with the whole faction progression/reputation they seem to be going for they simply put high-tier stuff under progression to unlock first, not direct UEC purshase, will mitigate some issues.
I disagree. The difference was that there was a hard cap on accumulated credits, UEC had to be spent before more could be bought, that barrier is now gone. Before now a person could spend $750 a month on UEC providing they offloaded everytime they reached the cap. Why would anyone need to spend more than that on credits per month?
The "What is win?" postulation is idiotic as well, nothing more than a trolling attempt at disingenuity.
Also, they said they were not selling stats. But isn't that exactly what you can buy with credits? Like, expensive modules that are better than other modules such as weapons or cargo space? I mean, I definitely consider weapon damage and cargo space stats.
They are not saying anything that is not said since 2013 when the revenue model of currency microtransactions was announced, it would not be the cap that would suddenly change anything because you could put up 150$-200$ in a week in the game and just spend it. If creating one attractive currency microtransaction as the main revenue model of the game would allow them to cut on ship concepts/sales once UEC is actually integrated in-game, seems like a necessary evil, it worked for EvE and with the whole faction progression/reputation they seem to be going for they simply put high-tier stuff under progression to unlock first, not direct UEC purshase, will mitigate some issues.
You have mentioned the idea of a progression gating mechanic to inhibit unlimited ship use on day one, but have they clearly stated or confirmed that anywhere.
The responses posted today don't really imply it, in fact thay almost say they understand at launch some groups will roll out with vast fleets at launch, while others will have the "opportunity" to grind it out themselves by playing the game.
Even EVE started out with far less PFA mechanics, capitals and super caps weren't even introduced at launch, and players have to train skills for a very long time (years) to fly them well.
Until just recently, the largest super caps could not be docked anywhere, so a player had to be willing to dedicate an account to training a pilot, and once put in the super, never leave it as the only way to keep it safe was to log out.
CCP put in a tremendous amount of thought into designing their skills, real time skill training, ship designs including advantages and disadvantages and the economy that drives it all.
Supers are stupid expensive to build, at one time around 65B ISK, take a ton of materials, can only be built in 0.0 space, must be built in the open and are attackable during building, take weeks to build, and require industrialists who had spend years training the skills to make them.
So far I haven't read anything about SC that indicates they are putting similar thought and care into the designs of these systems, which by the way, apply to every single ship in EVEs universe, not just supers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I disagree. The difference was that there was a hard cap on accumulated credits, UEC had to be spent before more could be bought, that barrier is now gone. Before now a person could spend $750 a month on UEC providing they offloaded everytime they reached the cap. Why would anyone need to spend more than that on credits per month?
The "What is win?" postulation is idiotic as well, nothing more than a trolling attempt at disingenuity.
It's a barrier I had talked before it wouldn't work, you can just spend and re-buy in a loop, and it'd be easy to have a way to re-earn the UEC you bought as in-game currency dodging the cap, it's just something that was edgy from the start, it forced inflation by forcing you injecting the currency in the economy first, before buying any further.
Also, they said they were not selling stats. But isn't that exactly what you can buy with credits? Like, expensive modules that are better than other modules such as weapons or cargo space? I mean, I definitely consider weapon damage and cargo space stats.
The revenue model of star citizen was always: You can buy the credits you earn in-game.
Also as discussed already, highly doubt the high-tier "gear" on SC will be available at will in simple shops to buy with currency, they already work on creation and progression based on factions, you'll most likely have to unlock those things before you actually can buy them.
The revenue model of star citizen was always: You can buy the credits you earn in-game.
Also as discussed already, highly doubt the high-tier "gear" on SC will be available at will in simple shops to buy with currency, they already work on creation and progression based on factions, you'll most likely have to unlock those things before you actually can buy them.
Except that actually supports what I said.
What about the low to mid tiers? If you can use credits to buy those upgrades, you are buying stats.
I disagree. The difference was that there was a hard cap on accumulated credits, UEC had to be spent before more could be bought, that barrier is now gone. Before now a person could spend $750 a month on UEC providing they offloaded everytime they reached the cap. Why would anyone need to spend more than that on credits per month?
The "What is win?" postulation is idiotic as well, nothing more than a trolling attempt at disingenuity.
It's a barrier I had talked before it wouldn't work, you can just spend and re-buy in a loop, and it'd be easy to have a way to re-earn the UEC you bought as in-game currency dodging the cap, it's just something that was edgy from the start, it forced inflation by forcing you injecting the currency in the economy first, before buying any further.
And for a long time I have argued how that encourages P2W and also made the argument many times that buying credits allows the use of larger ships from day 1, something that people on these boards claimed would not be possible as CIG's way of balancing the initial release and combating P2W.
In the past when I've said that people will sell ships in game for an even larger credit boost people have scoffed at the idea and now you see diehard fans saying the removal of the cap is fine because people were always planing on selling ships to bankroll themselves anyway...
The lengths that people will go to make this sound alright or that it was always the case or that it's fine because CIG are selling ships out of the wazoo is really disturbing. Chris was very specific in stating No Pay To Win and yet his game turns out to be one of the worst, if not the worst.
You have mentioned the idea of a progression gating mechanic to inhibit unlimited ship use on day one, but have they clearly stated or confirmed that anywhere.
The responses posted today don't really imply it, in fact thay almost say they understand at launch some groups will roll out with vast fleets at launch, while others will have the "opportunity" to grind it out themselves by playing the game.
So far I haven't read anything about SC that indicates they are putting similar thought and care into the designs of these systems, which by the way, apply to every single ship in EVEs universe, not just supers.
That was just one idea Mad mentioned, the ships, the base ships that were bought do stand there day-1 to all players. That is no different than what it would be if a new player joined the game sometime after it released.
What progresses starts from there, from NPC crews, to upgrades, to components, base ships won't come with the best the game has to offer and intentionally so there is forced grind progression past just owning the ship, that will be all about being able to unlock/buy that type of gear. As SC is more sandbox and it does not have skill leveling or XP leveling to act as grind bars, it will directly be related to how will high-tier gear be locked, beyond just UEC prices.
The lengths that people will go to make this sound alright or that it was always the case or that it's fine because CIG are selling ships out of the wazoo is really disturbing. Chris was very specific in stating No Pay To Win and yet his game turns out to be one of the worst, if not the worst.
Well, I already knew SC revenue model as a currency microtransaction that does allow you to cut on the grind since the moment I backed, so I sure will not act outraged over it when this cap was no deal-maker-or-breaker to being able or not to put up 750$ a month into the game currency.
If the UEC is highly valuated against the dollar (aka the current rates), and if the in-game earning rates are fair, should be fine.
Well, I already knew SC revenue model as a currency microtransaction that does allow you to cut on the grind since the moment I backed, so I sure will not act outraged over it when this cap was no deal-maker-or-breaker to being able or not to put up 750$ a month into the game currency.
If the UEC is highly valuated against the dollar (aka the current rates), and if the in-game earning rates are fair, should be fine.
My impression is that you would not act outraged if Chris Roberts said cya and thanks for all the fish. There is always some excuse.
A lot of people gave the game the benefit of the doubt due to its tight schedule and limited sales. Both of which would restrict the amount of pay to win. With developer slothing along year after year with continual sales the game is going to end up with a severe imbalance.
Since day one (2012!) that we have ppl buying starter ships vs people buying better ship's and this is still #drama for some folks lol
Slow summer
Gamers - lol Star Citizen Pay To Win junk Star Citizens - lol nope CIG - Unlimited credits for cash!!!1!! Gamers - lol even more Pay To Win crap Star Citizens - it's cool, we've been buying $1000 spaceships for the last 6 years !!!1!! Gamers - Doh
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
tl;dw: if I can put in a quarter and print some money any time I feel like it, the value of that money will go down.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
The question at hand was does removing the credit cap make SC (more) P2W, and we've been debating why this may or may not be true.
They always planned to one day remove it, so a discussion on the potential impact on the game's overall economy is better suited to another thread.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You can pay RL money for land (unlimited).
You can pay RL money for credits (unlimited).
It was never a question of whether or not it was P2W. It was always a question of how P2W it is. And they just made it a whole lot more P2W.
“Removing Voyager Direct meant we had to re-balance the economy, and with a re-balance, we wanted to offer backers the ability to ‘melt’ past item purchases made at older, unbalanced prices back to UEC to allow them to spend it on buying items in game at the new re-balanced prices. Without removing the cap, backers who were melting and re-applying funds would eclipse the overall UEC cap and be locked into their previously purchased items. So we removed the overall cap, but kept the daily cap in place to give our backers options and flexibility. This was purely a development / platform decision and has nothing to do with marketing or sales and was made to not disadvantage people that had supported us over the years. This has been the case since the release of 3.2 on June 30 and everyone seemed pretty happy with this flexibility as being able to ‘melt’ items that were purchased on Voyager Direct has been a long-term request from our community. So, it’s a bit surprising to see some people paint this as an issue now, especially considering the context of the change and the general happiness our community had with it when it was first rolled out. But, hey, it’s the internet and people have to complain about something!”
“Another thought re: ‘Pay to Win’ – what is ‘win’ in Star Citizen? We have challenges and gameplay for everything from solo players with just an Aurora to a huge org. crewing an Idris. We’re making a ‘space sim’ – I don’t even know what you would qualify as ‘win.’ That’s the whole idea: you play how you want to play, and should be able to have fun in a number of ways. Just like in real life, there are multiple paths, and your own success is really measured on a personal level. Further, there will be nothing in the game that you can only purchase with money. You can’t buy better stats or skill, we don’t sell magic kill bullets and everything that you can purchase with real money (like ships or UEC) can be earned via gameplay. By allowing people to purchase ships or a limited amount of UEC, we’re just allowing people that want to support the project a way to do it (its expensive to build a game of this scope and its expensive to run the servers that people play on), while not preventing the person that has only bought the basic game package from playing, earning and upgrading their equipment and competing with people that have spent more than them. Every persistent online game has inequality in starting assets, even if there is no ability to purchase, as people start their game careers at different times. If you join Eve or WoW right now, you don’t have the experience, stats or assets that someone that has been playing for years. We don’t see the issue with some people starting Star Citizenwith different equipment, as long as everyone gets the opportunity to earn everything via gameplay, which they will.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/93s2vd/official_statement_made_on_rationale_behind_uec/
Fingers crossed CiG doesn't start skimping out on the content as mentioned in the latter of the two issues above.
I disagree. The difference was that there was a hard cap on accumulated credits, UEC had to be spent before more could be bought, that barrier is now gone. Before now a person could spend $750 a month on UEC providing they offloaded everytime they reached the cap. Why would anyone need to spend more than that on credits per month?
The "What is win?" postulation is idiotic as well, nothing more than a trolling attempt at disingenuity.
The responses posted today don't really imply it, in fact thay almost say they understand at launch some groups will roll out with vast fleets at launch, while others will have the "opportunity" to grind it out themselves by playing the game.
Even EVE started out with far less PFA mechanics, capitals and super caps weren't even introduced at launch, and players have to train skills for a very long time (years) to fly them well.
Until just recently, the largest super caps could not be docked anywhere, so a player had to be willing to dedicate an account to training a pilot, and once put in the super, never leave it as the only way to keep it safe was to log out.
CCP put in a tremendous amount of thought into designing their skills, real time skill training, ship designs including advantages and disadvantages and the economy that drives it all.
Supers are stupid expensive to build, at one time around 65B ISK, take a ton of materials, can only be built in 0.0 space, must be built in the open and are attackable during building, take weeks to build, and require industrialists who had spend years training the skills to make them.
So far I haven't read anything about SC that indicates they are putting similar thought and care into the designs of these systems, which by the way, apply to every single ship in EVEs universe, not just supers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The revenue model of star citizen was always: You can buy the credits you earn in-game.
Also as discussed already, highly doubt the high-tier "gear" on SC will be available at will in simple shops to buy with currency, they already work on creation and progression based on factions, you'll most likely have to unlock those things before you actually can buy them.
What about the low to mid tiers? If you can use credits to buy those upgrades, you are buying stats.
In the past when I've said that people will sell ships in game for an even larger credit boost people have scoffed at the idea and now you see diehard fans saying the removal of the cap is fine because people were always planing on selling ships to bankroll themselves anyway...
The lengths that people will go to make this sound alright or that it was always the case or that it's fine because CIG are selling ships out of the wazoo is really disturbing. Chris was very specific in stating No Pay To Win and yet his game turns out to be one of the worst, if not the worst.
What progresses starts from there, from NPC crews, to upgrades, to components, base ships won't come with the best the game has to offer and intentionally so there is forced grind progression past just owning the ship, that will be all about being able to unlock/buy that type of gear. As SC is more sandbox and it does not have skill leveling or XP leveling to act as grind bars, it will directly be related to how will high-tier gear be locked, beyond just UEC prices.
Well, I already knew SC revenue model as a currency microtransaction that does allow you to cut on the grind since the moment I backed, so I sure will not act outraged over it when this cap was no deal-maker-or-breaker to being able or not to put up 750$ a month into the game currency.
If the UEC is highly valuated against the dollar (aka the current rates), and if the in-game earning rates are fair, should be fine.
Slow summer
My impression is that you would not act outraged if Chris Roberts said cya and thanks for all the fish. There is always some excuse.
A lot of people gave the game the benefit of the doubt due to its tight schedule and limited sales. Both of which would restrict the amount of pay to win. With developer slothing along year after year with continual sales the game is going to end up with a severe imbalance.
Star Citizens - lol nope
CIG - Unlimited credits for cash!!!1!!
Gamers - lol even more Pay To Win crap
Star Citizens - it's cool, we've been buying $1000 spaceships for the last 6 years !!!1!!
Gamers - Doh
They alternate about "there's no game", "will never be released" and then switch to "P2W! economy is doomed" and so on lol
CIG said it best: There's always something to cry about in the internet
Bet the pledges increased too lol
Ah well rinse&repeat
Stolen from SA.
..Cake..
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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