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UEC Cap Removed, Is The Game Going Full Out Pay To Win?

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  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    jusomdude said:
    Sounds like it could be a cool game TBH, but not touching it until it's actually released(if at all) and I can see whether or not it's P2W for myself.
    Totally agree, i think that spending any money at all on the game at this point in time would be a mistake, i really hope they finish the game, but mostly i hope that it doesn't become the P2W monstrosity it looks like it could easily become, at least based on the current format. :/
    jusomdude
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    edited August 2018
    Cotic said:
    Babuinix said:
    Cant wait to anihilate all the newbs with my UEC lol

    If you think they are crying now... :D
    Your jocularity should be aimed at CIG's spokeperson for suggesting it is an issue in WoW and EVE instead of trying to troll people over such idiocy.

    Why would a fanboi be unable to agree that the comparison given was a particlarly bad one, what prevents them from voicing any criticism at all against their beloved company?
    It's overreaction drama for the sake of drama from the same haters, critics and snowflakes with nothing better to do, again.

    Nothing of this matters in the long run, it's just another useless #drama like all the other ones before it.

    After a month nobody will care and then some other dumb ass #concern will emerge lol

    But hey the internet sure do loves soap operas more than it loves actual game development lol
    Kyleran
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Babuinix said:
    Cotic said:
    Babuinix said:
    Cant wait to anihilate all the newbs with my UEC lol

    If you think they are crying now... :D
    Your jocularity should be aimed at CIG's spokeperson for suggesting it is an issue in WoW and EVE instead of trying to troll people over such idiocy.

    Why would a fanboi be unable to agree that the comparison given was a particlarly bad one, what prevents them from voicing any criticism at all against their beloved company?
    It's overreaction drama for the sake of drama from the same haters, critics and snowflakes with nothing better to do, again.

    Nothing of this matters in the long run, it's just another useless #drama like all the other ones before it.

    After a month nobody will care and then some other dumb ass #concern will emerge lol

    But hey the internet sure do loves soap operas more than it loves actual game development lol
    Its very easy to label things as #drama or #concern, but isn't it more a case of #indenial although i have to say, i thought your statement about it not mattering in the long term was absolutely on point and also utterly hillarious given Star Citzens development status  :p
  • CoticCotic Member UncommonPosts: 268
    MaxBacon said:
    This is the revenue model since 2013, I have no idea to come here all these years later claiming this is unreasonable like...
    I would like to draw your attention to a previous post I made

    Gamers - lol Star Citizen Pay To Win junk
    Star Citizens - lol nope
    CIG - Unlimited credits for cash!!!1!!
    Gamers - lol even more Pay To Win crap
    Star Citizens - it's cool, we've been buying $1000 spaceships for the last 6 years !!!1!!
    Gamers - Doh

    Proclaiming it is unreasonable now does not mean people thought it was reasonable prior to now, rather they think it is even more unreasonable.

    MaxBacon said:
    Anyway, you still just claim this on assumption over assumption because none of us know the specific game balance and the details of progression, unlocking of gear and such, to determine that the currency microtransaction will be harmful to your gameplay or not. 
    And you do exactly the same with your comments about dollar rate, economy and so forth. I base my assumptions on examples such as other games that have employed high amounts of microtransactions. 

    MaxBacon said: 
    If your gameplay is not being harmed because of it and if you can reasonably achieve what you want by simply playing the game as it is already stated, then this is not one unreasonable revenue model.
    According to CIG a person's gameplay is being harmed, they have an unfair mountain to climb joining a game later in its life. CIG have decided to employ the exact same issue to their own game from the start of its life. How is that reasonable?


  • CoticCotic Member UncommonPosts: 268
    Babuinix said:
    It's overreaction drama for the sake of drama from the same haters, critics and snowflakes with nothing better to do, again.

    Nothing of this matters in the long run, it's just another useless #drama like all the other ones before it.

    After a month nobody will care and then some other dumb ass #concern will emerge lol

    But hey the internet sure do loves soap operas more than it loves actual game development lol
    And yet here you are, yet again inserting yourself into another so called drama issue while throwing disdain at drame issues. Is that not a bit strange? If you find them so distasteful why participate?

    And what makes you think your viewpoint is any more accurate or important than someone else's?
    You have no clue how it will affect the game and people are perfectly entitled to postulate how they feel it might affect the game.
    Cash shops, lockboxes, microtransactions have all been a big topic of discussion in gaming this last year in particular, it should come as no surprise that there is discourse around it. Trying to shame or ridicule people for wanting to discuss it as a way to protect your safe space is really quite pathetic.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    Cotic said:
    Proclaiming it is unreasonable now does not mean people thought it was reasonable prior to now, rather they think it is even more unreasonable.

    MaxBacon said: 
    If your gameplay is not being harmed because of it and if you can reasonably achieve what you want by simply playing the game as it is already stated, then this is not one unreasonable revenue model.
    According to CIG a person's gameplay is being harmed, they have an unfair mountain to climb joining a game later in its life. CIG have decided to employ the exact same issue to their own game from the start of its life. How is that reasonable?
    Well, I thought it was reasonable then, and I think it is reasonable now, that doesn't mean it is perfect and it does not have the potential to hit balance and economy negatively.

    Not at all, it's like you're saying then that seeing other people progress faster than you by potentially buying currency harms your gameplay... So factually, you're running on assumptions and speculation of what will be the details of from economy to PvP and other types of balance that are still years away. The same microtransaction impacts several MMO's differently, it's not its mere existence that determines the rest.
  • CoticCotic Member UncommonPosts: 268
    MaxBacon said:
    Well, I thought it was reasonable then, and I think it is reasonable now, that doesn't mean it is perfect and it does not have the potential to hit balance and economy negatively.
    Ok, and I thought it was unreasonable then and even more unreasonable now :)

    MaxBacon said:
    They didn't, it's like you're saying then that seeing other people progress faster than you by potentially buying currency harms your gameplay... So factually, you're running on assumptions and speculation of what will be the details of from economy to PvP and other types of balance that are still years away.
    Why does it have to only be about seeing? What if I am the target, if Credit Card Carl blows me up with his $400 purchase half an hour after release then damn right it's affecting my gameplay. If it takes me 2 months to earn my $400 ship and I get repeatedly blown up in that time by Credit Card Carl and his visa waving friends then damn right it is affecting my gameplay.

    You keep bringing up assumptions and speculation while also assuming and speculating that it will have minimal effect on the game....
    Phry
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    edited August 2018
    It's a crowdfunded game that's been selling ingame items and credits since inception.

    The removal of the cap changes nothing and any snowflake who gets angry about it enough to not play the game because of it is doing a service to the community lol

    So in a way CIG is doing great service to cleanse the community even more after giving the boot to many of the snowflake goon scum and overall haters.

    It's going to be cute to see them crawl back with the tail between their legs to play though B)
    rpmcmurphy
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    Cotic said:
    Why does it have to only be about seeing? What if I am the target, if Credit Card Carl blows me up with his $400 purchase half an hour after release then damn right it's affecting my gameplay. If it takes me 2 months to earn my $400 ship and I get repeatedly blown up in that time by Credit Card Carl and his visa waving friends then damn right it is affecting my gameplay.

    You keep bringing up assumptions and speculation while also assuming and speculating that it will have minimal effect on the game....
    Why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends be repeatedly blowing you up and affecting your gameplay? I don't think the game is setup in a way it's even friendly to that to happen (people hunting you down on purpose), hence again speculation, for all we know the game-world does not default to PvP, not legal PvP at least, so you'd likely have a mostly PvE experience to grind your 400$ ship if you so wish to play in monitored areas of space. 

    There is never, ever, going to be a PvP balance by the very nature of the game, there will always be someone in one Aurora and someone in some badass fighter or even capital ship, with or without currency microtransaction involved.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    rpmcmurphyPhry
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    MaxBacon said:
    Cotic said:
    Why does it have to only be about seeing? What if I am the target, if Credit Card Carl blows me up with his $400 purchase half an hour after release then damn right it's affecting my gameplay. If it takes me 2 months to earn my $400 ship and I get repeatedly blown up in that time by Credit Card Carl and his visa waving friends then damn right it is affecting my gameplay.

    You keep bringing up assumptions and speculation while also assuming and speculating that it will have minimal effect on the game....
    Why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends be repeatedly blowing you up and affecting your gameplay? I don't think the game is setup in a way it's even friendly to that to happen (people hunting you down on purpose), hence again speculation, for all we know the game-world does not default to PvP, not legal PvP at least, so you'd likely have a mostly PvE experience to grind your 400$ ship if you so wish to play in monitored areas of space. 

    There is never, ever, going to be a PvP balance by the very nature of the game, there will always be someone in one Aurora and someone in some badass fighter or even capital ship, with or without currency microtransaction involved.
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    PhaserlightjusomduderpmcmurphykitaradKefotweedledumb99
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    Phry said:
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    There will never be balance in PvP in the game because the nature of the game is not this "match-based" PvP where everyone stands at 1:1 chances. You take all the real money factor out, and you still will get rekd either that is by a ship much more powerful than yours, or just a party of pirate players raiding you, the impact this has on gameplay is the same, hence why you can't act like the microtransaction is to blame for that reality, because in this aspect it is not.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    Tbh It happens even in games that don't support that kind of behaviour lol

    Players, Uh, Find A Way!


    Phaserlight
  • RouzukiRouzuki Member UncommonPosts: 66
    Phry said:
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    How is buying your way to the top, assuming the top is open to everyone (money or not), different from having more time to play the game than other people and subsequently obtaining the top gear that way? 

    Unless you're a student or unemployed, you're not going to be able to keep up with those people anyway. 

    And what about if you buy the game 3 months after it releases? Even without being able to buy stuff, you'll still be at a "disadvantage".


    What we should be worried about and fighting to prevent, is whether or not there will be top "gear" locked behind cash only doors. 

    And concerning Credit Card Carl, if he's simply buying "top gear" and not actually putting in the hours to play, his top gear won't save him from getting obliterated by College Dropout Evan. 
    ConstantineMerusMaxBaconBabuinixErillion
  • EldrachEldrach Member RarePosts: 465
    The only thing that would make me play this game, is two separate universes..One with a fresh economy and no pre-bought ships...The other with all the guys who sold a kidney to basically dominate the game before it's even launched
    Phaserlight
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    edited August 2018
    Rouzuki said:
    Phry said:
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    How is buying your way to the top, assuming the top is open to everyone (money or not), different from having more time to play the game than other people and subsequently obtaining the top gear that way? 

    Unless you're a student or unemployed, you're not going to be able to keep up with those people anyway. 

    And what about if you buy the game 3 months after it releases? Even without being able to buy stuff, you'll still be at a "disadvantage".


    What we should be worried about and fighting to prevent, is whether or not there will be top "gear" locked behind cash only doors. 

    And concerning Credit Card Carl, if he's simply buying "top gear" and not actually putting in the hours to play, his top gear won't save him from getting obliterated by College Dropout Evan. 
    In one scenario it would take a person a lot of time, they would probably have quite a few mishaps along the way. In the other scenario it takes no time at all with zero mishaps along the way.

    Why do people need to keep up with the students, unemployed or retired players? If they have extra time on their hands good for them, it hardly justifies selling the game down the river for some pretense at "equality".

    And lol at credit card carl :)
    Phaserlight
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    Several hundred dollars for space ships earlier wasn't pay to win? It's not even in beta yet...
  • RouzukiRouzuki Member UncommonPosts: 66
    edited August 2018
    In one scenario it would take a person a lot of time, they would probably have quite a few mishaps along the way. In the other scenario it takes no time at all with zero mishaps along the way.

    Why do people need to keep up with the students, unemployed or retired players? If they have extra time on their hands good for them, it hardly justifies selling the game down the river for some pretense at "equality".

    And lol at credit card carl :)
    "In one scenario it would take a person a lot of time" 

    1. Games, even MMOs, today usually have someone at the top like 2 weeks after launch. The days of taking months, or even years, to hit max level like back during EQ1 are long gone.

    2. Even without #1, if you buy into the game a few months later, you're still facing people who have both gear and play time x months ahead of you. 

    How fast you get to be top geared really shouldn't be our concern, our concern should be, will there be fun content to do unrelated to the gear grind.

    "Why do people need to keep up with the student..."

    I wasn't shitting on them for it mate, it's just how life is. When I was a college student you bet your hackey sack I was putting in the hours to be at the top of whatever silly game was all the rage back then. But now I'm not, and there's a new crop of younglings that are. Pretty soon the same will happen to them. 

    It's the ciiiirrcleee off liffeeeeeeee 
    https://imgur.com/RgAYmFx


    Theocritus said:
    Several hundred dollars for space ships earlier wasn't pay to win? It's not even in beta yet... 
    Is the win condition, "Get the best space ship"? If it is, then I probably won't play much as I was led to believe it wasn't. Elite Dangeous pretty much ended up being that way and while I had fun for a little bit, I quit that too. 
    MaxBaconBabuinix
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,078
    Rouzuki said:
    Phry said:
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    How is buying your way to the top, assuming the top is open to everyone (money or not), different from having more time to play the game than other people and subsequently obtaining the top gear that way? 

    Unless you're a student or unemployed, you're not going to be able to keep up with those people anyway. 

    And what about if you buy the game 3 months after it releases? Even without being able to buy stuff, you'll still be at a "disadvantage".


    What we should be worried about and fighting to prevent, is whether or not there will be top "gear" locked behind cash only doors. 

    And concerning Credit Card Carl, if he's simply buying "top gear" and not actually putting in the hours to play, his top gear won't save him from getting obliterated by College Dropout Evan. 
    This is a commonly made argument in defense of 'pay to win', and it has never been satisfying to me.  There are some flaws, here:

    As @rpmcmurphy points out: if someone has more time to play the game, good for them.  If someone wins a route to the top through circuitous trial and error, I hold nothing against them.  On the other hand, if someone buys their way to the top through a means which has nothing at all to do with the game... very loosely I consider this cheating.

    My second point is perhaps more subtle: in games that have much room for horizontal progression there isn't a 1 to 1 translation between Time and Money as if on an XY Cartesian plane; there are additional dimensions to consider.  In a game with horizontal progression or one that relies on the skill of the player, you can't say "player X has had 3 weeks to play ahead of me, therefore I have a 3 week gap to make up".  It's not as if the time spent in game is some form of literal currency, which whales are entitled to bypass through an equivalent exchange.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    My second point is perhaps more subtle: in games that have much room for horizontal progression there isn't a 1 to 1 translation between Time and Money as if on an XY Cartesian plane; there are additional dimensions to consider.  In a game with horizontal progression or one that relies on the skill of the player, you can't say "player X has had 3 weeks to play ahead of me, therefore I have a 3 week gap to make up".  It's not as if the time spent in game is some form of literal currency, which whales are entitled to bypass through an equivalent exchange.
    Game is far more complex and has more variables than just a linear "time vs money" progression in a PvEvP environment.

    Over it, and most fundamentally so, is this ridiculous assumption that game is some sort of EvE Online that are PvP-Driven games, PvP is not the point of SC, SC is a trading space sim, PvP is there because it's part of it.

    This is why this argumentation is just assumptions and speculation, especially because SC continues being stated as 90% AI, 10% Players, if so, the whole PvP element will be toned down to a point this sort of balance isn't much of a problem.

    And it's something like he mentioned, the mere time factor will always undermine equality of progression.



  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Rouzuki said:
    Phry said:
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    How is buying your way to the top, assuming the top is open to everyone (money or not), different from having more time to play the game than other people and subsequently obtaining the top gear that way? 

    Unless you're a student or unemployed, you're not going to be able to keep up with those people anyway. 

    And what about if you buy the game 3 months after it releases? Even without being able to buy stuff, you'll still be at a "disadvantage".


    What we should be worried about and fighting to prevent, is whether or not there will be top "gear" locked behind cash only doors. 

    And concerning Credit Card Carl, if he's simply buying "top gear" and not actually putting in the hours to play, his top gear won't save him from getting obliterated by College Dropout Evan. 
    In one scenario it would take a person a lot of time, they would probably have quite a few mishaps along the way. In the other scenario it takes no time at all with zero mishaps along the way.

    Why do people need to keep up with the students, unemployed or retired players? If they have extra time on their hands good for them, it hardly justifies selling the game down the river for some pretense at "equality".

    And lol at credit card carl :)
    It's a funny thing, but people always assume so many things about the type of players people are and their situations, but of course anyone who works hard to achieve things rather than buy them, it has to be because they are just Students, Unemployed or just plain Old People that have retired, then that means its okay if you buy that win, because your Carl and you have a Credit Card ;)
    Phaserlight
  • DurzaxDurzax Member UncommonPosts: 87
    So, going to laugh my ass off at all of you "pay to win" dipshit trolls that have your "precious" blown to bits by the games NPC's thinking your hot shit in your Idris or Javilen.
    Or you thinking any one is going to give your avatar the time of day with a low "rep".
    Best of luck finding anyone that will sell you the equipment that Javilen is going to need just to be able to move, let alone fight.

    Yeah, best of luck with that.

    The Vanduul send their regards.
    Erillion
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    Phry said:
    It's a funny thing, but people always assume so many things about the type of players people are and their situations, but of course anyone who works hard to achieve things rather than buy them, it has to be because they are just Students, Unemployed or just plain Old People that have retired, then that means its okay if you buy that win, because your Carl and you have a Credit Card
    Hey it's not any worse than your assumptions that without microtransactions there is this open world PvP balance, pretending there is some equality of standing and progression in the first place, either that is from people capable to invest more or less time, or the fact that there will always be people on different points on progression ending up on a PvP situation.

    SC has so many variables on this aspect that are ignored just to throw hyperbole into statements. I play as part of one organization, we play as a group in our own fleets with escorts and all, in that reality, players paying or earning what they're playing with is highly diluted into normal gameplay.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Rouzuki said:
    Phry said:
    In a way you are right, as long as people are able to buy the advantage with real money then there will never be any balance in the PVP in the game.
    As for why would Credit Card Carl and his Visa friends repeatedly blow someone up, well, heres the thing, why do you think they spent all that money in the first place?
    Obviously its so they can blow other players up, and of course the 'easy' targets will always be those who are not spending the extra cash to get the 'better' gear.
    This always happens in games that support that kind of behaviour. :/
    How is buying your way to the top, assuming the top is open to everyone (money or not), different from having more time to play the game than other people and subsequently obtaining the top gear that way? 

    Unless you're a student or unemployed, you're not going to be able to keep up with those people anyway. 

    And what about if you buy the game 3 months after it releases? Even without being able to buy stuff, you'll still be at a "disadvantage".


    What we should be worried about and fighting to prevent, is whether or not there will be top "gear" locked behind cash only doors. 

    And concerning Credit Card Carl, if he's simply buying "top gear" and not actually putting in the hours to play, his top gear won't save him from getting obliterated by College Dropout Evan. 
    Because time is accrued equally for everyone.  Money is not.  The resources are not at all similar.
    PhaserlightPhry

    image
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    Why do people who hate a game waste so much time commenting on it? Why do people slow down to stare at a car wreck?

    I'm just hoping this damn thing turns out great for the Gamers, and if it does I'll play it until the next 'Star Citizen' comes out.

    Gut Out!

    What, me worry?

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    edited August 2018
    Because time is accrued equally for everyone.  Money is not.  The resources are not at all similar.
    That's not technically true, you can be as restrained in time as you can be as restrained in money.

    This is why those who are playing +10 hours a day in MMO's are ASAP progression comparing to everyone else, there is no point on pretending there is equality of progression on the first place because there isn't.

    This is why MMO's are so awfully balanced to casual players, they simply can't ever achieve end-game gear and such because the grind bars require obscene amounts of time investment.

    Is that any fairer? I don't think it is.
    Octagon7711
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