Ashes of Creation at PAX West 2018: What I Learned from Steven Sharif & Jeffrey Bard - MMORPG.com

SBFord · September 2018

Ashes of Creation at PAX West 2018: What I Learned from Steven Sharif & Jeffrey Bard - MMORPG.com

On the Saturday of PAX shortly after lunch I had what is probably one of the coolest experiences yet since I started writing for MMORPG.com - I got a chance to sit down CEO / Creative Director Steven Sharif and Lead Game Designer Jeffrey Bard to talk about Ashes of Creation, an ambitious upcoming MMORPG that has a good portion of the community waiting on bated breath in anticipation.

Read the full story here

Galadourn · September 2018

The progress the team has been making is nothing short of amazing. I guess not trying to reinvent the wheel plays its part in this. They simply rely on clever combination of ideas already in use in other games.

Slapshot1188 · September 2018

“He mentions the idea of the disconnected viewer - which are usually the most vocal - and described them as people who don’t really follow the development of the game but watch a video here and there along the way. They don’t participate in forums where there’s a heavy communication presence with developers and as such just should about things. He’s a proof is in the pudding type of guy, however, and is sure once these same people see the final product they’ll be shouting just as loudly at how amazing it is.”

So the guy basically takes a shot at 3rd party sites like MMORPG.com and you don’t even challenge the validity of it? You just post his propaganda that we will all be shouting how amazing it is?

I would think that at a minimum you would point out the value of 3rd party sites like this and point out the dangers of the echo chamber that official forums become.

[Deleted User] · September 2018

The user and all related content has been deleted.

SBFord · September 2018

Slapshot1188 said:

So the guy basically takes a shot at 3rd party sites like MMORPG.com and you don’t even challenge the validity of it? You just post his propaganda that we will all be shouting how amazing it is?

I would think that at a minimum you would point out the value of 3rd party sites like this and point out the dangers of the echo chamber that official forums become.

Why should we if he's actually...you know...right? That's not to say that everyone who comes to sites like ours are like that, but many are and are loud about their discontent. * shrugs *

Every dev knows there is value in both types of sites, hence why we even get interview opportunities.

BillMurphy · September 2018

He’s right about most internet sites and forums in general.

Slapshot1188 · September 2018

SBFord said:

Slapshot1188 said:

So the guy basically takes a shot at 3rd party sites like MMORPG.com and you don’t even challenge the validity of it? You just post his propaganda that we will all be shouting how amazing it is?

I would think that at a minimum you would point out the value of 3rd party sites like this and point out the dangers of the echo chamber that official forums become.

Why should we if he's actually...you know...right? That's not to say that everyone who comes to sites like ours are like that, but many are and are loud about their discontent. * shrugs *

Every dev knows there is value in both types of sites, hence why we even get interview opportunities.

--------------------------------------------
Who puts out the videos?
Who is the expert in Marketing?

Blaming potential customers for not properly understanding their marketing is utterly silly.

He basically said that discussing his game on any forum other than his own is pointless. As the premier 3rd party MMORPG forums I would think you would object to that. If not for yourselves than for your community who actually feel value in the discussions that happen here. I'm not saying the author should have argued with him, but at least stand up for the community... slightly... and indicate that there are other perspectives.

Edit: Not sure what happened to the formatting... but I'll add a line between my response and the quote.

Slapshot1188 · September 2018

MisterZebub said:

BillMurphy said:

He’s right about most internet sites and forums in general.

The problem with this line of thinking is this is exactly why these third party venues are going the way of the dinosaurs. While I won't argue the internet as a whole is certainly a hive of scum and villainy, allowing these companies to only allow discussion about their products in their own personal fiefdoms where they control the narrative with an iron fist is not in any way healthy for the consumer. That's the problem with the free association of ideas, it tends to turn to anarchy. But in my not so humble opinion that is still far better than self enforced internet fascism.

Exactly. I am utterly stunned that this even needs to be explained.

[Deleted User] · September 2018

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SBFord · September 2018

I don't for a second believe that all discussion should take place on "official" sites. If it does, they do live in an echo chamber. People need to speak their minds on official sites too, not just on 3rd party sites. While we know Intrepid visits our site regularly, many many developers do not and those words / concerns whistle in the wind.

However, the caveat in all of this, is the openness of developers to allow dissenting thought. Those who do are the better for it and the community is "happier" that its voice can be heard regardless of opinion. Those who do not allow frank and honest discourse aren't likely to be visiting here either.

It's kind of a dual-edged sword. Let's hope Intrepid understands the need for all voices to be heard.

[Deleted User] · September 2018

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Shaigh · September 2018

I am skeptical about their hybrid combat, splitting resources on two systems makes it likely that one system is a lot worse than the other and that none of them is great.

They have also talked about their node system but we heard this exact talk about everquest next which failed completely and we heard similar stuff for gw2 and what was delivered was nowhere close to what was promised.

With projects in developments you should look at what's being shown and ignore all the talk because half the stuff they talked about during early development will be changed before release.

Slapshot1188 · September 2018

parrotpholk said:

MisterZebub said:

BillMurphy said:

He’s right about most internet sites and forums in general.

The problem with this line of thinking is this is exactly why these third party venues are going the way of the dinosaurs. While I won't argue the internet as a whole is certainly a hive of scum and villainy, allowing these companies to only allow discussion about their products in their own personal fiefdoms where they control the narrative with an iron fist is not in any way healthy for the consumer. That's the problem with the free association of ideas, it tends to turn to anarchy. But in my not so humble opinion that is still far better than self enforced internet fascism.

This, I know devs only want people to spew positives about their vision and they work hard to bring that vision and art to life so I get it. I would say wait for release. With the combat system which sounds horrible to me, choose one and make it great and not this weird hybrid where some skills are this and some are that but it might be great. I think this will go down in the long line of crowd funded messes that have plagued the MMO landscape for a long time now. But again until we have a released product there is no way of knowing. But saying everyone out there except those who post on my site or back my product is worthless is not correct either.

I do not know if it will follow the others Crowdfunded games. So far they have done a decent job to the external eye, but the proof is in the pudding and I also am very skeptical they can properly tune a hybrid system to keep it balanced an fun. We shall see.

Totally agree with the point about the forums though. Trying to undercut critics because they do not post on their highly moderated forums is just silly.

JeroKane · September 2018

SBFord said:

Slapshot1188 said:

So the guy basically takes a shot at 3rd party sites like MMORPG.com and you don’t even challenge the validity of it? You just post his propaganda that we will all be shouting how amazing it is?

I would think that at a minimum you would point out the value of 3rd party sites like this and point out the dangers of the echo chamber that official forums become.

Why should we if he's actually...you know...right? That's not to say that everyone who comes to sites like ours are like that, but many are and are loud about their discontent. * shrugs *

Every dev knows there is value in both types of sites, hence why we even get interview opportunities.

Are you serious? Just look at official forums like LOTRO and FFXIV, where people get permanent bans by criticizing the game and certain dev decisions!

A lot of official forums are heavily moderated, where most critique is buried away or outright deleted as to pretend everything is fine with their game.

At least on third party sites like these you can give your honest opinion and criticize devs without immediate repercussions.

jpedrote52 · September 2018

blueturtle13 said:

As an artist in the industry, I think a modular solution is the most sensible solution for mmorpg design. A solution that shows how much time and thought has gone into this title.

This team is making so many 'right' moves that they may just have the future of the genre in the bag. A very well thought out and managed project. I look forward to the future of this genre with a team like this leading the way. They are taking what made the past mmorpgs successful and reimagining it to sit comfortably on the landscape of the present and future day.

Thanks for the write up Robert! Great article and thoughts!

So no complaints or worries about them using the unreal engine? I've heard it's not the best tool in the shed when it comes to massive open world battles (something this game is very much about) you think they'll be able to work around it? it's one of the things that worries me the most about this project.

Rommie10-284 · September 2018

For me the idea of a strong server identity is queuing up a Sad Trombone for getting stuck in Troll Town.
I'm sure they get earfuls of similar thoughts because it's no secret there are player groups actively planning TT on any new games that allow them.

I'm not as worried about OF echo chambers nowadays. Reddit and Discord have a loud enough voice that developers ignore them at their peril, and both are harder to Iron Thumb.

Wizardry · September 2018

He said Wow is a great game that can't be denied..pfft typical,say the politically correct thing to be safe from backlash.IMO Wow does literally everything badly,so to say it is great is as biased as my opinion ,only difference is i am not trying to convince anyone to buy my product because i am not selling anything.

There is a lot of saying the right thing here and perhaps even doing the right things and even having a good mindset to create a great game,doesn't mean it will be great.We need to see a finished product to determine that and one thing for 100% certain is i do NOT allow sales numbers to cloud my judgment of a product.

One thing i will say is they are sort of contradicting their own design....destroy everything but not so tough to rebuild it,well so then it will look fake?Sort of like remember your blueprint and just bam auto build right back,then what is the sense of having destruction?Just like in real life destruction should carry some sort of mistake or problem for making that bad decision to destroy something,it shouldn't be as simple as "oh don't worry about it,you can rebuild easily with little effort".
If i could put their thought process into an analogy it would be like two guys bet each other on a Football game,the loser has nothing to fear because he gets his money back if he loses.
So it appears,at least to me like they are trying to cater to carebears and hardcore at the same time,...good luck that does not work.

[Deleted User] · September 2018

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Samhael · September 2018

Gotta admit, I'm more stuck on the action combat thing. I enjoyed action combat for about a week or so after I first played a MMO that had it. After that, it was just "meh" and I started to miss the more paced strategic style of combat. (not to be confused with the sleepy combat from the Pantheon videos) 20-30 years ago, the frantic action combat might have been more interesting but I'm approaching 50 now and it just doesn't hold any appeal. I'll reserve final judgment for the launch product but I'm betting I'm not going to enjoy the combat in Alpha 1.

jpedrote52 · September 2018

blueturtle13 said:

jpedrote52 said:

blueturtle13 said:

As an artist in the industry, I think a modular solution is the most sensible solution for mmorpg design. A solution that shows how much time and thought has gone into this title.

This team is making so many 'right' moves that they may just have the future of the genre in the bag. A very well thought out and managed project. I look forward to the future of this genre with a team like this leading the way. They are taking what made the past mmorpgs successful and reimagining it to sit comfortably on the landscape of the present and future day.

Thanks for the write up Robert! Great article and thoughts!

So no complaints or worries about them using the unreal engine? I've heard it's not the best tool in the shed when it comes to massive open world battles (something this game is very much about) you think they'll be able to work around it? it's one of the things that worries me the most about this project.

No I completely agree. Unreal is not the ideal choice for an mmorpg engine in today's market (imo) but it is pliable and has had success at varying degrees in the past and present. Aion (and Aion Next Gen in UE4), Blade and Soul, City of Titans, Sea of Thieves, Tera,The new Lineage (TL) even a couple of older titles like Chronicles of Spellborn rip =/ and Vanguard
I would have liked to have seen them perhaps use an engine like Unigine but I am still a big fan of the UE and know in the right hands it will do just fine.

But most of those game don't have a focus on large scale grouping or open world PVP / sieging, I know they said they're writing most of the code themselves in the back end, so UE doesn't do much of the work ( or something like that don't know how it works) but how far can they push it and circumvent the limitations of UE. And again most of those titles aren't about having (50+ players on the same spot) as there been any game done in UE with that type of gameplay in mind?

Kyleran · September 2018

jpedrote52 said:

blueturtle13 said:

jpedrote52 said:

blueturtle13 said:

As an artist in the industry, I think a modular solution is the most sensible solution for mmorpg design. A solution that shows how much time and thought has gone into this title.

This team is making so many 'right' moves that they may just have the future of the genre in the bag. A very well thought out and managed project. I look forward to the future of this genre with a team like this leading the way. They are taking what made the past mmorpgs successful and reimagining it to sit comfortably on the landscape of the present and future day.

Thanks for the write up Robert! Great article and thoughts!

So no complaints or worries about them using the unreal engine? I've heard it's not the best tool in the shed when it comes to massive open world battles (something this game is very much about) you think they'll be able to work around it? it's one of the things that worries me the most about this project.

No I completely agree. Unreal is not the ideal choice for an mmorpg engine in today's market (imo) but it is pliable and has had success at varying degrees in the past and present. Aion (and Aion Next Gen in UE4), Blade and Soul, City of Titans, Sea of Thieves, Tera,The new Lineage (TL) even a couple of older titles like Chronicles of Spellborn rip =/ and Vanguard
I would have liked to have seen them perhaps use an engine like Unigine but I am still a big fan of the UE and know in the right hands it will do just fine.

But most of those game don't have a focus on large scale grouping or open world PVP / sieging, I know they said they're writing most of the code themselves in the back end, so UE doesn't do much of the work ( or something like that don't know how it works) but how far can they push it and circumvent the limitations of UE. And again most of those titles aren't about having (50+ players on the same spot) as there been any game done in UE with that type of gameplay in mind?

Well, alpha is just around the corner, we'll soon find out.

Iselin · September 2018

@SBFord,

Just a minor technical quibble about the hyperlink in this and many other recent articles: the link always takes me to the last page of the article when it has multiple pages, not the first.

[Deleted User] · September 2018

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kajidourden · September 2018

Still not impressed with this. Maybe once all their "revolutionary" ideas are actually functional. It's all been combat tech demos up to this point.

mmrv · September 2018

blueturtle13 said:

As an artist in the industry, I think a modular solution is the most sensible solution for mmorpg design. A solution that shows how much time and thought has gone into this title.

This team is making so many 'right' moves that they may just have the future of the genre in the bag. A very well thought out and managed project. I look forward to the future of this genre with a team like this leading the way. They are taking what made the past mmorpgs successful and reimagining it to sit comfortably on the landscape of the present and future day.

Thanks for the write up Robert! Great article and thoughts!

lol not sure what the right moves are, kind of odd you personally have declared them being the right moves? I am hopeful for this product but I am also fairly confident most developers are absolutely clueless on game design and have lost sight of what makes games fun.

Let's be honest so far this game has the stench of simply a well designed mmo clone which we have seen many of and it doesnt cut it.

Top core features an MMO must have that most developers completely overlook.

1) Combat mechanics and animations - like it or not the fact is the bulk of your time in an mmo is controlling your character and a bulk of that is moving around and performing combat if that doesnt feel great everything doesnt matter.

2) character development and core game systems. Need deep meaningful classes and character development this includes itemization and loot.

3) Adventure and exploring (aka content)- this might actually be #2 but it is all but forgotten, most every world is abysmally small, boring, with zero need to explore largely because there is never anything to bother to find, oh hey look the generic set of 5 dungeons that i am to repeat clearing for the next year that sounds like a real fun adventure!

so if they fail to master these it will be another ho hum generic MMO clone and from what I have seen they have done nothing to focus on those points, they are 100% lost on combat wishy washy changing constantly trying to find something people like, they do have alot of classes potentially but will they be distinct/interesting and have a place in the game? Content....under whelming epically underwhelming generic "dungeon" most likely already have there set number of what they deem will meet the bare min to keep people playing. Nothing has been revealed to create a vast world with plenty of meaningful nooks and crannies to explore.

We are bored, bored to tears honestly we seen it all we done it all, some day developers will get a clue and design a game that can scale with voracity all of us seasoned veterans gamers have. What wow another dwarven "cave" errr dungeon filled with little dwarven guys who are all perfectly spaced out to fight 3 at a time, in the typical dwarven looking structure and wow look at that a new sword with 1.1 dps more than my last so exciting! such a thrill..... Yawn.

tinnis · September 2018

related: steven sharrif is still the head moderator of the previously community ran subreddit /r/ashesofcreation after it was handed over to them the other month.

there was no announcement about it happening until it was pointed out.

they have made no effort to hand it back to the community whatsoever.

nor are any of the employees or official discord mod replacements active on the subreddit or even reddit in general.

here is an example of steven's public comments on subreddit moderation stances

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