No, the "ingenuity" comes from those who refuse to acknowledge the differences in how Cyberpunk and the other titles are funded compared to SC.
The reality of how different titles are funded does not change the common reality of development, it won't magically mute the similarities between the process because of the differences in how projects as this are funded and announced.
That said, the argument should be properly addressed instead of dismissing it based on something of little impact to the core of the original point.
The difference is fundamental, which is why trying to compare the two is disingenuous.
Delays happen, but SC hasn't been delayed solely for mere routine development hiccups. So even if they were comparable in funding, it's still disingenuous to compare unless you have some evidence that CDPR significantly delayed the game to increase its scope significantly.
Not only that, but a traditionally funded game answers to it's investors/publisher when they delay. Crowdfunded games answer to the people that funded them. If they do not like that then they should not take our money.
All episodes like this do is make me realize that Publishers/Beancounters actually play an important role in game development. Maybe it was too big at some point, but leaving developers on their own has been a disaster. This is not limited to SC by any means.
Well, crowdfunded games don't really HAVE to answer to the people that funded them at all, its just smart to do so to avoid backlash.
Not in the case of SC though where there is zero accountability. SC can take as long as it likes, have whatever features it likes and cost as much as it likes. But that is because SC is "special," just like its devout followers are. Normal backers like you and me might just scratch their heads and wonder since when it is ok to give absolute free reign to someone based on a promise and potential.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Not in the case of SC though where there is zero accountability. SC can take as long as it likes, have whatever features it likes and cost as much as it likes. But that is because SC is "special," just like its devout followers are. Normal backers like you and me might just scratch their heads and wonder since when it is ok to give absolute free reign to someone based on a promise and potential.
Fake News.
SC backers can demand accountability as they want, you don't see it on SC on the amounts you would like because the opinion of the majority of the community does not represent your views and opinions, especially on how bothered are you by X or Y, such as how long it is taking.
So saying they have no accountability is BS, they don't have to answer to the noise people who aren't even backers on forums as this produce, yet to their backers, and this whole Citizencon ticket story shows it, when the backers are by majority not okay with such action, the paywall fell.
As there is an ongoing dependency on backers there is always going to be accountability, ruled by the majority of their backer community, one can't say there isn't accountability just because a group of people is 10x more bothered about something than the generality of the community is about the same thing... In this massive entire ocean of opinions on the internet.
Not in the case of SC though where there is zero accountability. SC can take as long as it likes, have whatever features it likes and cost as much as it likes. But that is because SC is "special," just like its devout followers are. Normal backers like you and me might just scratch their heads and wonder since when it is ok to give absolute free reign to someone based on a promise and potential.
Fake News.
SC backers can demand accountability as they want, you don't see it on SC on the amounts you would like because the opinion of the majority of the community does not represent your views and opinions, especially on how bothered are you by X or Y, such as how long it is taking.
So saying they have no accountability is BS, they don't have to answer to the noise people who aren't even backers on forums as this produce, yet to their backers, and this whole Citizencon ticket story shows it, when the backers are by majority not okay with such action, the paywall fell.
As there is an ongoing dependency on backers there is always going to be accountability, ruled by the majority of their backer community, one can't say there isn't accountability just because a group of people is 10x more bothered about something that the generality of the community is about the same thing...
Perhaps. I for one don't care how long SC takes or how much it costs, I am just really surprised by how much they can stretch time lines, budget and features without backlash. And I'll be honest, I find it extremely unlikely that the vast majority of its backers are totally okay with this, not uttering one single critical word. I know no other game where its funders give such free reign to the creators, thats why I used "special." I also don't really think its a positive thing, putting all your hopes, faith and eggs in one basket.
I've said it before, I hope SC succeeds and I have supported CIG and played the Alpha. I do wish however that there was more room for a critical sound, not everyone that doesn't agree with how this is going is clueless or a hater, they're also not a tiny minority.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Perhaps. I for one don't care how long SC takes or how much it costs, I am just really surprised by how much they can stretch time lines, budget and features without backlash. And I'll be honest, I find it extremely unlikely that the vast majority of its backers are totally okay with this, not uttering one single critical word. I know no other game where its funders give such free reign to the creators, thats why I used "special." I also don't really think its a positive thing, putting all your hopes, faith and eggs in one basket.
I've said it before, I hope SC succeeds and I have supported CIG and played the Alpha. I do wish however that there was more room for a critical sound, not everyone that doesn't agree with how this is going is clueless or a hater, they're also not a tiny minority.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I for one and as many others there understand things like the cost of the huge scaling of the studios they did, aka the concept sales and all are not this evil thing, it's what needs to happen so they can continue to sustain operations on this scale, while others rage at this day and night because they thing this is about greed and not coping with costs.
It's also being okay or not, many people criticize them for several things, the big change is really how bothered are them about something, from not liking something to being bloody outraged by it, it's not the "everything is rainbows and unicorns" type of thing. On that aspect, the things like what the devs are doing are fine by me, like the delays caused by refactors to address problems or improve areas of the game, it slowly gets there but I'd get actually way more bothered if they were grabbing something half-broken and bandage it all the way just to call it done, others are super bothered they didn't get it all right on the first iteration and have to refactor and delay stuff, depends on the person.
Perhaps. I for one don't care how long SC takes or how much it costs, I am just really surprised by how much they can stretch time lines, budget and features without backlash. And I'll be honest, I find it extremely unlikely that the vast majority of its backers are totally okay with this, not uttering one single critical word. I know no other game where its funders give such free reign to the creators, thats why I used "special." I also don't really think its a positive thing, putting all your hopes, faith and eggs in one basket.
I've said it before, I hope SC succeeds and I have supported CIG and played the Alpha. I do wish however that there was more room for a critical sound, not everyone that doesn't agree with how this is going is clueless or a hater, they're also not a tiny minority.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I for one and as many others there understand things like the cost of the huge scaling of the studios they did, aka the concept sales and all are not this evil thing, it's what needs to happen so they can continue to sustain operations on this scale, while others rage at this day and night because they thing this is about greed and not coping with costs.
It's also being okay or not, many people criticize them for several things, the big change is really how bothered are them about something, from not liking something to being bloody outraged by it, it's not the "everything is rainbows and unicorns" type of thing. On that aspect, the things like what the devs are doing are fine by me, like the delays caused by refactors to address problems or improve areas of the game, it slowly gets there but I'd get actually way more bothered if they were grabbing something half-broken and bandage it all the way just to call it done, others are super bothered they didn't get it all right on the first iteration and have to refactor and delay stuff, depends on the person.
Understanding it isn't the same as being happy with it though. I can understand that people want to share their concerns and disappointment without being haters or not having a clue. Often I see people being more bothered with posts that are made by people that are being bothered by something related to the game, it really annoys me. Hell, it annoys me just as much as people calling SC a scam, thats completely ridiculous too. As is defending everything Roberts promises as a truth waiting to happen. I in no way rate the hardcore defenders lower (or higher for that matter) then the haters.
TLDR: I think SC gets a lot of undeserved flak, the part that is deserved however gets shouted down or trivialised more then in any other crowdfunded game I have ever seen, I find that strange.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
How do you know it doesnt represent the majority? ANYTHING negative on the official forums is censored or removed outright and in a lot of cases lately people are also getting banned from posting on the forums there.
There are a very vocal (IMO) minority that wont say a single critical thing about SC, CIG or Chris Roberts let alone a negative one. Despite the facts (and yes theyre facts) that there are plenty of legit areas where criticism if not outrage are warranted.
But its the same old play book. But look at the last 3 pages of this topic, its a revolving door of white knights. Eriliion goes for a day or two then boobinex now the pig has tagged in. Is the Holy Trinity of Fanbois here.
Either way its laughable watching them twist and spin and try and justify every thing these guys have done that is so clearly wrong or incompetent but totally 'normal because...well...developing.
But the icing on the cake and its very telling, is now Cyberpunk is being brought into these debates. A game that has re-emerged after 5 or 6 years of silence. But it obviously came back with a bang.
It is also eerily similar to the SC saga, started with a small team, a rework of the engine, more and more people added to the team as time went on. Also saw a step back from multiplayer to now a single player (although many thing at least a co-op will eventually come out).
Either way it is a 100% certainty as long as Nibiru or a nuclear holocaust or more Mandela Effects make us forget one of them dont happen then Cyberpunk will be played through and more than likely long forgotten before SC comes close to releasing even SQ 42 its single player portion let alone the full fledged game.
Understanding it isn't the same as being happy with it though. I can understand that people want to share their concerns and disappointment without being haters or not having a clue. Often I see people being more bothered with posts that are made by people that are being bothered by something related to the game, it really annoys me. Hell, it annoys me just as much as people calling SC a scam, thats completely ridiculous too. As is defending everything Roberts promises as a truth waiting to happen. I in no way rate the hardcore defenders lower (or higher for that matter) then the haters.
TLDR: I think SC gets a lot of undeserved flak, the part that is deserved however gets shouted down or trivialised more then in any other crowdfunded game I have ever seen, I find that strange.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
But that's the thing, of course nobody is happy about something like this, but if you understand what goes behind some problem that happens or some decision that furthers a delay, then there's really little margin to be all outraged about it, aside of being outraged about something like the time its taking not ever going to magically make the game release, and even if it did there is no lack of examples of what happens when the pressure to release (due backlash, budgeting, etc..) wins over. So yeah I have to support their current path all things considered, continues to prioritize the game with what needs to be done to achieve what it is meant to be.
I see no good from bringing up crucifixes and nails to sacrifice the devs over what happened; when things are leveled in ways meant to provide positive outcomes sure but here we mostly have toxicity and trolling, so it's not worth even go there.
Understanding it isn't the same as being happy with it though. I can understand that people want to share their concerns and disappointment without being haters or not having a clue. Often I see people being more bothered with posts that are made by people that are being bothered by something related to the game, it really annoys me. Hell, it annoys me just as much as people calling SC a scam, thats completely ridiculous too. As is defending everything Roberts promises as a truth waiting to happen. I in no way rate the hardcore defenders lower (or higher for that matter) then the haters.
TLDR: I think SC gets a lot of undeserved flak, the part that is deserved however gets shouted down or trivialised more then in any other crowdfunded game I have ever seen, I find that strange.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
But that's the thing, of course nobody is happy about something like this, but if you understand what goes behind some problem that happens or some decision that furthers a delay, then there's really little margin to be all outraged about it, aside of being outraged about something like the time its taking not ever going to magically make the game release, and even if it did there is no lack of examples of what happens when the pressure to release (due backlash, budgeting, etc..) wins over. So yeah I have to support their current path all things considered, continues to prioritize the game with what needs to be done to achieve what it is meant to be.
I see no good from bringing up crucifixes and nails to sacrifice the devs over what happened; when things are leveled in ways meant to provide positive outcomes sure but here we mostly have toxicity and trolling, so it's not worth even go there.
When I look at the delays I see poor project management and leadership. As an example... I see them adding new technology to Squadron 42. We are 6 years into the development. I do not need to see a monthly update who's highlight is "a number of visual improvements to the glass shader". To add condensation or frosted glass effects. I mean, sure those sound nice... but at the 6 year mark I do not want to hear that frosted glass is what their main accomplishment was last month.
Someone has to be the adult and tell the developer that while nice, that's not something to be focused on after 6 years. Patch that in or hold it for some DLC.
I mean it's one thing to say "We haven't gotten critical feature X working right yet so we are going to keep at it this month". It's another to say "It's been 6 years and no end in sight, but check out our new frosted glass tech".
If people do not express their frustration, they will continue with stuff like this. After 6 years they should just be tightening up the last bits of story branches.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
Not in the case of SC though where there is zero accountability. SC can take as long as it likes, have whatever features it likes and cost as much as it likes. But that is because SC is "special," just like its devout followers are. Normal backers like you and me might just scratch their heads and wonder since when it is ok to give absolute free reign to someone based on a promise and potential.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
SC backers can demand accountability as they want, you don't see it on SC on the amounts you would like because the opinion of the majority of the community does not represent your views and opinions, especially on how bothered are you by X or Y, such as how long it is taking.
So saying they have no accountability is BS, they don't have to answer to the noise people who aren't even backers on forums as this produce, yet to their backers, and this whole Citizencon ticket story shows it, when the backers are by majority not okay with such action, the paywall fell.
As there is an ongoing dependency on backers there is always going to be accountability, ruled by the majority of their backer community, one can't say there isn't accountability just because a group of people is 10x more bothered about something than the generality of the community is about the same thing... In this massive entire ocean of opinions on the internet.
I've said it before, I hope SC succeeds and I have supported CIG and played the Alpha. I do wish however that there was more room for a critical sound, not everyone that doesn't agree with how this is going is clueless or a hater, they're also not a tiny minority.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
It's also being okay or not, many people criticize them for several things, the big change is really how bothered are them about something, from not liking something to being bloody outraged by it, it's not the "everything is rainbows and unicorns" type of thing. On that aspect, the things like what the devs are doing are fine by me, like the delays caused by refactors to address problems or improve areas of the game, it slowly gets there but I'd get actually way more bothered if they were grabbing something half-broken and bandage it all the way just to call it done, others are super bothered they didn't get it all right on the first iteration and have to refactor and delay stuff, depends on the person.
TLDR: I think SC gets a lot of undeserved flak, the part that is deserved however gets shouted down or trivialised more then in any other crowdfunded game I have ever seen, I find that strange.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
There are a very vocal (IMO) minority that wont say a single critical thing about SC, CIG or Chris Roberts let alone a negative one. Despite the facts (and yes theyre facts) that there are plenty of legit areas where criticism if not outrage are warranted.
But its the same old play book. But look at the last 3 pages of this topic, its a revolving door of white knights. Eriliion goes for a day or two then boobinex now the pig has tagged in. Is the Holy Trinity of Fanbois here.
Either way its laughable watching them twist and spin and try and justify every thing these guys have done that is so clearly wrong or incompetent but totally 'normal because...well...developing.
But the icing on the cake and its very telling, is now Cyberpunk is being brought into these debates. A game that has re-emerged after 5 or 6 years of silence. But it obviously came back with a bang.
It is also eerily similar to the SC saga, started with a small team, a rework of the engine, more and more people added to the team as time went on. Also saw a step back from multiplayer to now a single player (although many thing at least a co-op will eventually come out).
Either way it is a 100% certainty as long as Nibiru or a nuclear holocaust or more Mandela Effects make us forget one of them dont happen then Cyberpunk will be played through and more than likely long forgotten before SC comes close to releasing even SQ 42 its single player portion let alone the full fledged game.
I see no good from bringing up crucifixes and nails to sacrifice the devs over what happened; when things are leveled in ways meant to provide positive outcomes sure but here we mostly have toxicity and trolling, so it's not worth even go there.
Someone has to be the adult and tell the developer that while nice, that's not something to be focused on after 6 years. Patch that in or hold it for some DLC.
I mean it's one thing to say "We haven't gotten critical feature X working right yet so we are going to keep at it this month". It's another to say "It's been 6 years and no end in sight, but check out our new frosted glass tech".
If people do not express their frustration, they will continue with stuff like this. After 6 years they should just be tightening up the last bits of story branches.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018