I think it'll come down to he'll have to convince the court he was ignorant of how things worked and that CDP took advantage of said ignorance. For one thing, why would he sell the rights instead of licensing the rights? Why didn't he have an attorney involved, as I'm sure CDP had a dozen working on the deal on their end? Lot of things in the situation we don't know, so impossible to really speculate either way at this point. Will be interesting to see what develops as it goes along.
Courts seldom accept ignorance as a reason to change contract later on. Justice system is trying to be predictable, and the threshold for court ordering that parties must act contrary to what they agreed in a contract must be very high so that people can rely on the contracts they've made.
He's a professional writer who had published many books, and the court is unlikely to accept that a professional with experience would be ignorant of a contract that applies directly to his own profession. Furthermore, he must have been aware that CD Projekt Red was releasing multiple Witcher game since 2011 when they released Witcher 2. If there was an error in the contract and he did not act to correct it until now, he's already lost his right to demand for that error to be corrected due to not acting soon enough after noticing the error.
He might be able to force CD Projekt Red to re-negotiate based on some copyright law, or he might be able to argue that the contract only gave CD Projekt Red permission to make one game, but he's very unlikely to be able to claim ignorance.
he can't fake ignorance after that article saying he didn't belive the game would sell, sorry he dig a big hole to himself a few years before, now he is asking to people toss the sand over him
I guess people missed the part where there is a rule / law / precedent or whatever in Poland that allows him to do this based on the huge difference in what he was paid and what CDPR has gained from it.
I guess people missed the part where there is a rule / law / precedent or whatever in Poland that allows him to do this based on the huge difference in what he was paid and what CDPR has gained from it.
He is very likely going to get paid.
This.
That is the precedent and sure it's possible that will prevail. However, it seems that is also based on what their agreement was as far as one game or more games.
I suppose we'll see.
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A contract made 2000, i think he deserves a raise after 18 years.
Eh, after 18 years, if we're being honest, he isn't nearly the biggest reason his IP is so popular.
Interesting exercise in philosophy. How much is an IP creator entitled to when another entity does the majority of the work to popularize it?
You dont have any clue how licencing works, do you ?
It seems that licensing his work should have happened instead of selling the rights straight up. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
Just from reading this thread and with no knowledge of Polish law, it seems reasonable that this whole thing might simply revolve around this licensing vs selling argument. In any case, it seems a pretty simple case of a normal business renegotiation, where the price of the sold item (IP rights) were not clearly known at the time of the sale.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here is what caught my attention. he is asking for an additional 16 million to catch him upto 6% of the profits, that is AFTER all bills are paid. I think his total earnings then would be 32 million at 6% meaning that the company pocketed ballpark 500 million PROFIT. Keep that in mind when you start hearing the virtue signalling, "we dont have the funds to support product xyz, and all the other BS this gaming industry pedals while they flat out rape the general public, while babbling about how they need cheap labor from china and india to code these games.
I don;t have a problem per say with them making money I believe in capitalism, but when these same people like GOOGLE start to dictate politics about immigrants (they use for cheap labor) and shaming you about your privilege please understand just how hypocritical these people are and how badly they are deceiving you as they exploit the system to make MEGA GENERATIONAL WEALTH...All while telling you YOU need to help the people of the world.
I guess people missed the part where there is a rule / law / precedent or whatever in Poland that allows him to do this based on the huge difference in what he was paid and what CDPR has gained from it.
He is very likely going to get paid.
This.
That is the precedent and sure it's possible that will prevail. However, it seems that is also based on what their agreement was as far as one game or more games.
I suppose we'll see.
This is the real clause his lawyers will likely base their case on, whether the contract specified one game or many.
Also they may be able to make a case he was mislead into signing away his rights unfairly for future titles.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Never pay this man. Cd project red is a team with great originality and .ingenuity. Andrzej Sapkowski is a plagiarist who stole all his work from Michael Moorcock. Before he wrote the witcher series he was an editor and translator for science and fantasy who worked primarily on Michael Moorcock's elric of melnibone series. Now i want you google that character name as well as geralt of rivia and tell me the differences. There is not a single strand of originality in Andrzej's body the fact he is despicable person.
He is a bitter old man who sold the IP for almost nothing while scoffing games and their potential revenue, saying it is thing for kids and doesn't make money. He deserves to get nothing. His interviews are so hard to read due all his hatred towards the game in comparisson to other authors who work with game companies and are excited to see their vision in motion.
I was at a gaming conference where Ann McCaffery said Dragon Riders of Pern would never be a roleplaying game or a video game of any sort. But that was only because she felt she could not stand to loose control over her vision. She quite liked the idea of roleplaying.
Since then of course she changed her mind, but it is that sort of problem an author has with giving up their work I can appreciate, when they are dismissive, be it of film, roleplaying, video games etc you do have rather less sympathy for them.
He is a bitter old man who sold the IP for almost nothing while scoffing games and their potential revenue, saying it is thing for kids and doesn't make money. He deserves to get nothing. His interviews are so hard to read due all his hatred towards the game in comparisson to other authors who work with game companies and are excited to see their vision in motion.
I was at a gaming conference where Ann McCaffery said Dragon Riders of Pern would never be a roleplaying game or a video game of any sort. But that was only because she felt she could not stand to loose control over her vision. She quite liked the idea of roleplaying.
Since then of course she changed her mind, but it is that sort of problem an author has with giving up their work I can appreciate, when they are dismissive, be it of film, roleplaying, video games etc you do have rather less sympathy for them.
Wait, there is a Dragon Riders of Pern video game available or in the works?
Please link, I would so love to play a game in the Pern universe and battle threadfall.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Never pay this man. Cd project red is a team with great originality and .ingenuity. Andrzej Sapkowski is a plagiarist who stole all his work from Michael Moorcock. Before he wrote the witcher series he was an editor and translator for science and fantasy who worked primarily on Michael Moorcock's elric of melnibone series. Now i want you google that character name as well as geralt of rivia and tell me the differences. There is not a single strand of originality in Andrzej's body the fact he is despicable person.
The first time I saw Geralt in the first Witcher that as the first thing that came to mind "wolf? White Hair? Seems like Elric."
However, while there are similarities, and saying this as a HUGE fan of the Erlic novels, there are enough differences that the similarities are pretty much skin deep.
Well, except for the potions.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Never pay this man. Cd project red is a team with great originality and .ingenuity. Andrzej Sapkowski is a plagiarist who stole all his work from Michael Moorcock. Before he wrote the witcher series he was an editor and translator for science and fantasy who worked primarily on Michael Moorcock's elric of melnibone series. Now i want you google that character name as well as geralt of rivia and tell me the differences. There is not a single strand of originality in Andrzej's body the fact he is despicable person.
The first time I saw Geralt in the first Witcher that as the first thing that came to mind "wolf? White Hair? Seems like Elric."
However, while there are similarities, and saying this as a HUGE fan of the Erlic novels, there are enough differences that the similarities are pretty much skin deep.
Well, except for the potions.
Go ahead and compare the love interest(S) from both works.
A contract made 2000, i think he deserves a raise after 18 years.
Eh, after 18 years, if we're being honest, he isn't nearly the biggest reason his IP is so popular.
Interesting exercise in philosophy. How much is an IP creator entitled to when another entity does the majority of the work to popularize it?
All of it. If said first creator did not create the universe, there would be no witcher game. Maybe there would be a "The mage-warrior-hunter-in-a-fantasy-world" game, but it would not be the witcher.
Arguing that "another did the job to popularize it", it's like any distributor which popularize any given franchise or music and then say they did the majority of the job. Maybe from a money point of view it works like that, which is why you have to buy your music an insane price, which pretty much all of it goes to distributors who virutally did nothing to create the music.
But from the point of view of the creation, the original author did pretty much all the job.
A contract made 2000, i think he deserves a raise after 18 years.
Eh, after 18 years, if we're being honest, he isn't nearly the biggest reason his IP is so popular.
Interesting exercise in philosophy. How much is an IP creator entitled to when another entity does the majority of the work to popularize it?
All of it. If said first creator did not create the universe, there would be no witcher game. Maybe there would be a "The mage-warrior-hunter-in-a-fantasy-world" game, but it would not be the witcher.
Arguing that "another did the job to popularize it", it's like any distributor which popularize any given franchise or music and then say they did the majority of the job. Maybe from a money point of view it works like that, which is why you have to buy your music an insane price, which pretty much all of it goes to distributors who virutally did nothing to create the music.
But from the point of view of the creation, the original author did pretty much all the job.
Either way, fact remains that it's much more likely that CDPR did his books a favor than vice versa.
CDPR honestly could've fit the core game to any fantasy lore. The Witcher 3 was going to be well-received on the merits of the gameplay experience alone, particular lore set be damned.
That's the point. You have to balance the interests, because if the creator can go back on the original agreement all willy nilly, your only hurting the chances any developer will do business with any IP creator in the future. That doesn't help anyone, really. If there's a clause in the contract or law that provides for a renegotiation, then I'm sure the courts will order it. But make no mistake: CDPR, with the gameplay elements they've created within the franchise, would've had success with or without this almost completely unknown IP (until CDPR literally put the IP on the map).
He is a bitter old man who sold the IP for almost nothing while scoffing games and their potential revenue, saying it is thing for kids and doesn't make money. He deserves to get nothing. His interviews are so hard to read due all his hatred towards the game in comparisson to other authors who work with game companies and are excited to see their vision in motion.
I was at a gaming conference where Ann McCaffery said Dragon Riders of Pern would never be a roleplaying game or a video game of any sort. But that was only because she felt she could not stand to loose control over her vision. She quite liked the idea of roleplaying.
Since then of course she changed her mind, but it is that sort of problem an author has with giving up their work I can appreciate, when they are dismissive, be it of film, roleplaying, video games etc you do have rather less sympathy for them.
Wait, there is a Dragon Riders of Pern video game available or in the works?
Please link, I would so love to play a game in the Pern universe and battle threadfall.
I know there was one from Epyx on the C64 because i had it and played it ... That was in the early 80s , i think a couple others have released over the years also if im remembering correctly, That and Temple of Apshai , i played a ton back then , both from Epyx
Never pay this man. Cd project red is a team with great originality and .ingenuity. Andrzej Sapkowski is a plagiarist who stole all his work from Michael Moorcock. Before he wrote the witcher series he was an editor and translator for science and fantasy who worked primarily on Michael Moorcock's elric of melnibone series. Now i want you google that character name as well as geralt of rivia and tell me the differences. There is not a single strand of originality in Andrzej's body the fact he is despicable person.
I'm not sure why people find your comment insightful. It's unsubstantiated hearsay, but then again that's as good as facts on the internet, just ask Reddit. Your post is everything wrong with the current group-think echo chamber we've created on the internet.
What is most disgusting about your post is suggesting justice be delivered based on your subjective moral judgement of that person and their social popularity.
Was CDPR original when they used his work because they couldn't create an original IP and story of their own, or when they continued to capitalize on a property they didn't create in a game format already established?
The fact is both parties benefited from the relationship, CDPR much more so financially. They have made tons of money and should renegotiate the contract to be in line with industry standards. It would be stupid for both parties to waste money in court over greed.
CDPR is making 97% of gross revenue from that IP. It doesn't seem ridiculous that it be 94%. Why wouldn't they renegotiate? It's the kind of thing you'd expect from EA or Activision. This is what happens when big publishers aren't held accountable and gamers give them a pass because they think they're buddies. It's called celebrity attachment; which is perceiving a personal connection with a person who doesn't know you exist. You and CDPR aren't buddies.
I felt his post was insightful from the context of an ostensibly similar IP. The rest...eh -- that's one person's opinion. The legal case will be fascinating to watch, though I think CDPR would come out looking like the "good guys" if they said something like, "Well, we don't owe you anything else, but we'll meet your 6% anyway." After all, they have a new game coming out soon and they don't want to smear the corporate name by being petty or by getting bogged down in a long legal struggle.
Either way, I wonder if Sapkowski will file a lawsuit now that the initial overture has been declined by CDPR.
People getting bent out of shape over whether the Witcher was an original work (Moorcock did in fact consider suing but didn't in the end) and who made how much money out of it.
That's all irrelevant. What is happening here is that the author chose to take up-front cash for the rights of CDPR to use his IP in game(s) because he thought at the time that the games wouldn't amount to much.
Now in hindsight he regrets not having taken the royalties deal that he was offered so he wants to revisit his original decision. Only Polish contract law and the fine details of the contract have any relevance here.
There is certainly no moral obligation, as some of you are suggesting, for CDPR to give him more. There may be a legal obligation to do so if the aforementioned Polish contract law and the contract details warrant it, but absent that, it would be going above and beyond for CDPR to unilaterally give him more out of the goodness of their hearts.
The dude made a bad deal for the rights to use his IP and now that CDPR has hit the big time he wants a piece of the action. That is all this story is.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
While I'm all for not backstabbing, not sure this is backstabbing. He consciously took the cash because he thought their idea was shit and his best bet was to make a quick buck. CDPR did nothing shady there; they couldn't have known at the time just how popular their franchise would become, even if they hoped as much.
If he got stabbed, I'd say the author fell on the knife.
While I'm all for not backstabbing, not sure this is backstabbing. He consciously took the cash because he thought their idea was shit and his best bet was to make a quick buck. CDPR did nothing shady there; they couldn't have known at the time just how popular their franchise would become, even if they hoped as much.
If he got stabbed, I'd say the author fell on the knife.
And I really have to wonder why now? Why not last year or the year before when The Witcher 3 was already HUGE and the money was pouring in?
While I'm all for not backstabbing, not sure this is backstabbing. He consciously took the cash because he thought their idea was shit and his best bet was to make a quick buck. CDPR did nothing shady there; they couldn't have known at the time just how popular their franchise would become, even if they hoped as much.
If he got stabbed, I'd say the author fell on the knife.
And I really have to wonder why now? Why not last year or the year before when The Witcher 3 was already HUGE and the money was pouring in?
As someone asked above I also wonder who is getting how much from Netflix for the upcoming TV series. That might be the why now part.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
While I'm all for not backstabbing, not sure this is backstabbing. He consciously took the cash because he thought their idea was shit and his best bet was to make a quick buck. CDPR did nothing shady there; they couldn't have known at the time just how popular their franchise would become, even if they hoped as much.
If he got stabbed, I'd say the author fell on the knife.
And I really have to wonder why now? Why not last year or the year before when The Witcher 3 was already HUGE and the money was pouring in?
CDPR is moving away from this franchise, correct?
He was making some smaller than average amount of the sales profits, right?
His money faucet has been turned off. No more titles, sales revenue will go off a cliff. Seems to me he wants one last splash of cash from the deal.
While I'm all for not backstabbing, not sure this is backstabbing. He consciously took the cash because he thought their idea was shit and his best bet was to make a quick buck. CDPR did nothing shady there; they couldn't have known at the time just how popular their franchise would become, even if they hoped as much.
If he got stabbed, I'd say the author fell on the knife.
And I really have to wonder why now? Why not last year or the year before when The Witcher 3 was already HUGE and the money was pouring in?
Maybe because they are expanding the world? They announced a game exclusively for GOG (on PC) that has brand "new" lore and places from that universe.
I wasn't aware they were continuing with the Witcher franchise.
If so, I have little idea why the now. Maybe because they are expanding the world, but that wouldn't really make a difference to how he's paid afaik.
Obviously his lawyers figure there is some grounds to win this suit.
My hunch is that CDProjectRed is using something from books written AFTER the agreement and CDPR is banking on accruing the rights for any and all that is the Witcher.
I am not sure how the law would handle such a problem,i mean to me it would be unjust to allow a contract partner to make use of work not yet made when the contract was signed,even if it does fall under the title of The Witcher,at least that is what i feel they are going after.
Any other version of the contract that involves said work at the time would be fully attainable by CDPR if that is what the contract entitled.
There is another angle they might be going after.There might be a lack of inclusion within the contract that specified OTHER avenues of marketing off of the Witcher title.I find it hard to believe they would sign over all and every right,just no way.I mean that would be stupid because in essence the author would have been giving away everything except the title.
So they will be trying to prove that CDPR has been making money off of the Witcher title in several areas not agreed upon but were assumed.
As typical in courts,they don't use much common sense or opinions,they will simply look at cold hard facts and not care about any intent or assumptions,in that case i feel the author might be left out in the cold for not getting his lawyer to form a better contract.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
he can't fake ignorance after that article saying he didn't belive the game would sell, sorry he dig a big hole to himself a few years before, now he is asking to people toss the sand over him
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'll take another guess there is little precedence with regards to this specific gaming situation anywhere, especially not in Poland.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don;t have a problem per say with them making money I believe in capitalism, but when these same people like GOOGLE start to dictate politics about immigrants (they use for cheap labor) and shaming you about your privilege please understand just how hypocritical these people are and how badly they are deceiving you as they exploit the system to make MEGA GENERATIONAL WEALTH...All while telling you YOU need to help the people of the world.
Also they may be able to make a case he was mislead into signing away his rights unfairly for future titles.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Since then of course she changed her mind, but it is that sort of problem an author has with giving up their work I can appreciate, when they are dismissive, be it of film, roleplaying, video games etc you do have rather less sympathy for them.
These guys need to talk to Brandon Sanderson because i need me a good Mistborn game!
Please link, I would so love to play a game in the Pern universe and battle threadfall.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All of it. If said first creator did not create the universe, there would be no witcher game. Maybe there would be a "The mage-warrior-hunter-in-a-fantasy-world" game, but it would not be the witcher.
Arguing that "another did the job to popularize it", it's like any distributor which popularize any given franchise or music and then say they did the majority of the job. Maybe from a money point of view it works like that, which is why you have to buy your music an insane price, which pretty much all of it goes to distributors who virutally did nothing to create the music.
But from the point of view of the creation, the original author did pretty much all the job.
CDPR honestly could've fit the core game to any fantasy lore. The Witcher 3 was going to be well-received on the merits of the gameplay experience alone, particular lore set be damned.
That's the point. You have to balance the interests, because if the creator can go back on the original agreement all willy nilly, your only hurting the chances any developer will do business with any IP creator in the future. That doesn't help anyone, really. If there's a clause in the contract or law that provides for a renegotiation, then I'm sure the courts will order it. But make no mistake: CDPR, with the gameplay elements they've created within the franchise, would've had success with or without this almost completely unknown IP (until CDPR literally put the IP on the map).
Either way, I wonder if Sapkowski will file a lawsuit now that the initial overture has been declined by CDPR.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's all irrelevant. What is happening here is that the author chose to take up-front cash for the rights of CDPR to use his IP in game(s) because he thought at the time that the games wouldn't amount to much.
Now in hindsight he regrets not having taken the royalties deal that he was offered so he wants to revisit his original decision. Only Polish contract law and the fine details of the contract have any relevance here.
There is certainly no moral obligation, as some of you are suggesting, for CDPR to give him more. There may be a legal obligation to do so if the aforementioned Polish contract law and the contract details warrant it, but absent that, it would be going above and beyond for CDPR to unilaterally give him more out of the goodness of their hearts.
The dude made a bad deal for the rights to use his IP and now that CDPR has hit the big time he wants a piece of the action. That is all this story is.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If he got stabbed, I'd say the author fell on the knife.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
He was making some smaller than average amount of the sales profits, right?
His money faucet has been turned off. No more titles, sales revenue will go off a cliff. Seems to me he wants one last splash of cash from the deal.
If so, I have little idea why the now. Maybe because they are expanding the world, but that wouldn't really make a difference to how he's paid afaik.
My hunch is that CDProjectRed is using something from books written AFTER the agreement and CDPR is banking on accruing the rights for any and all that is the Witcher.
I am not sure how the law would handle such a problem,i mean to me it would be unjust to allow a contract partner to make use of work not yet made when the contract was signed,even if it does fall under the title of The Witcher,at least that is what i feel they are going after.
Any other version of the contract that involves said work at the time would be fully attainable by CDPR if that is what the contract entitled.
There is another angle they might be going after.There might be a lack of inclusion within the contract that specified OTHER avenues of marketing off of the Witcher title.I find it hard to believe they would sign over all and every right,just no way.I mean that would be stupid because in essence the author would have been giving away everything except the title.
So they will be trying to prove that CDPR has been making money off of the Witcher title in several areas not agreed upon but were assumed.
As typical in courts,they don't use much common sense or opinions,they will simply look at cold hard facts and not care about any intent or assumptions,in that case i feel the author might be left out in the cold for not getting his lawyer to form a better contract.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.