I don't like the idea of best in slot items. I like best tier of items sure, but not best actual item for any individual purpose. I really, really dislike PvP gear. It shouldn't exist. Also, a character in a RPG should not be a jack of all trades. It is even worse in an MMO where you have hundreds if not thousands of people running around, all professionals at everything.
I always like the way UO did it. No best in slot. Just different tiers. Everything was based upon your skill. Everyone could equip the same items (well if your strength was low you'd have a hard time moving around in plate!). Everything was made by the community. You played your role. No switching "Plate of stupidface" for "Plate of fartface" so you could perform better in any particular dungeon or war. You had plate, it was plate. Plate was plate, leather was leather... You made your class.
I don't like the idea of best in slot items. I like best tier of items sure, but not best actual item for any individual purpose. I really, really dislike PvP gear. It shouldn't exist. Also, a character in a RPG should not be a jack of all trades. It is even worse in an MMO where you have hundreds if not thousands of people running around, all professionals at everything.
I always like the way UO did it. No best in slot. Just different tiers. Everything was based upon your skill. Everyone could equip the same items (well if your strength was low you'd have a hard time moving around in plate!). Everything was made by the community. You played your role. No switching "Plate of stupidface" for "Plate of fartface" so you could perform better in any particular dungeon or war. You had plate, it was plate. Plate was plate, leather was leather... You made your class.
Ive been playing UO 21 years now , there absolutley is BIS for any encounter , my guild is raiding Osiredon this weekend , i will be bringing 4 bows with me that will handle the Boss and any adds , i will be wearing BiS jewelry for this encounter and the proper BiS armor for this encounter ..
And to Add plate is not plate ..even in its base form different ores gave diffeerent resists , and be even further specialized and enhanced thru Imbueing ..
Even in its earliest form UO plate chain and leather had different advantages .. Dependent on its base material
This is a ss of what armor can be in UO its a Greater Artifact , there are better BiS , this is just an everyday piece of gear for me ..
This is a weapon i had drop from a Ancient Wyrm and altho a Lesser Artifact its pull was quite nice and is a very nice weapon for general use and a BiS for general use two hand build with Lumberjacking ..
So as we can see , that even a Random Loot game which are my favortite from UO ,AC ,D&D online ,SWG and PG , each have Random Loot but each also have Rare named drops .. and/or the Loot Table still permits and turns out BiS and then can be Enhanced/Imbued/Traited etc if its short in some area ...
I tend to agree with @Scorchien that as long as you have slots there will always be BIS just like there are best rotations and best ability builds in games that allow flexibility with those things as well.
It's in the nature of most players, myself included, to test and push things to try to achieve the best results with our game play.
But like I and others have already said in this thread, I much prefer having a range of BiS, best rotations and best skills for different situations and different types of game play.
The part of the OP I didn't like was the implication that in order to obtain that one and only BiS you needed to partake in every different part of the game whether you wanted to or not since different parts of that BIS came from different types of game play.
I already see where that idea leads and the resentment it causes in games like ESO where PvErs need to do some PvP to get a couple of abilities you can only get there that are essential to PvE builds and viceversa with PvPers needing to do some PvE content for gear essential for PvP (monster head and shoulders.)
That kind of game design just rubs me the wrong way since I dislike forced anything in MMOs.
Especially the forced "paying" part.
I always sub to the MMOs I like and play. I have no problem whatsoever with "forced" subs.
The nickle and dimeing of F2P game is a different story though and most of those can just go fuck themselves
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Well in the history of our genre we definitely have had a extreme range in the ways of filling our inventory slots. We have seen the days of hardcore poop socking, Im looking at you Everquest. To the days of Free to Play, where a Whale can come in buy a max level toon and in some games buy resources or in game currency to get easily a best of slot gear.
Obviously the days of being on a bat phone list, to get that call in the middle of the night just so the next guildie on the list might have a small shot of getting the item desired, is over. That being said, I personally think that getting the best in slot item is a big deal and should be kind of hard and it definitely shouldn't be acquired from a ingame store. Im not a developer though and I imagine finding that sweet spot for your game base is kind of hard.
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
I am going to say this again, as some people missed it the first.
At First, GW2, did not have BiS gear. The game started with Exotic being the only level 80 gear, as such there was no other choice for Level Appropriate Gear. As such there was no BiS gear Tier, there was only what was appropriate for your level.
Again, this was before Ascended was introduced.
On top of that, there was no "Obvious" choice what gear was better for a class or a build, as their is still discussions going on for 6+ years now on which gear combinations are in fact meta. Case in point the Zerker Ele vs the Cele Ele, it's still not resolved which is in fact better.
With that said, Ascended only further muddied what gear stat combo's were in fact better, and Infusions only added to the mess. before I left, there was a lot of contention on which is better, Vipers vs Marauders. A lot of this is very play style dependent and not simply a number crunched "BiS". Meta is always in flux in that game.
So.. no.. GW2, did not have BiS gear when it first came out. And while Legendary is the current BiS type of gear, there is still no specific stat combo that is really BiS.
And in a final note, Situational Gear is the Antitheses to BiS, as gear that is situational by the nature of being Situational, is not the best gear you can get, all gear value is contingent upon what you are dealing with as such, it's never truly "The Best in Slot" it is simply "Good for the Situation"
In Games like DDO, that never really gave you a myopic situation, there was no real BiS gear. There was a lot of gear that was very optimal for a variety of situations, like a prime example would be the Min II Greensteel weapons, they were a very good all around weapon that could be used for a variety of situations, in many cases, a solid go-to dependable weapon across a variety of situations, but, a Lit II Greensteel had better overall DPS if you didn't need to break DR. Now, a Lit II and a Min II were Raid gear, but.. if you were facing a Pit Fiend, a Holy Burst Silver Weapon of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, would be a better choice, which was, as Irony would have it, not the best weapon to kill the Pit Fields Minions and Guards.
But.. no.. situational weapons, are not BiS. If you need keep swapping your Armor, then neither of them are really BiS, as each is equal to the other for a different situation.. hence why you need to swap to begin with.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
your 100% wrong and all the reasons are already given in this thread .. yes Exotics were BiS at the time ..
Yes DDO has BiS
Yes situational gear is BIS , to think otherwise is foolish if you enter a (particular raid) and the other Tank has Better Armor sword ..everything than you for ex .. Guess what you dont have BiS .. And you will be a lesser tank ...
There may be discussions of which actual Class is better , but each class has BiS gear .. All you need to do is look up any game look at the gear .. One of them is going to best for your Build and or Sitation .. There is no getting away from it ..
Draconic Exotic sets GW2 were BIS for a long time ..
And there is always an obvious choice at end game there many resources to look up for any of these games that will give you exact builds in Skill and gear to achieve best output for any class/role/build
and ill tell ya if you are not preparing your role/class for situational combat with BiS you will never raid seriuously in any of these games .. Thats where BiS is needed and demanded ..For situational BIS
And ill add i just browsed the entire GW2 forums , i cant find anyone hotly debating anything
Feel free to list the loot tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Feel free to list the loot tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
Ascended gear with Agony and Stat infusions that will parse the best for your role wether thats DPS /Healing etc.. or survivability to tank in Fractals
here is a BIS DPS build that includes Gear/Skills/Rotations/Specializations .. to achive highest DPS
there are Builds for BIS builds for every class/raid/situation pve or pvp ..
There is no escaping..
These games are built on Math
Math is always true , and Math cant be disputed , when tested and these are heavily on pArse they deliver , Now a player can fail , and not dleiver the DPS needed , But then your Player is actually not the BiS for your raid and you need to find another ..
And if you notice there are encounter specific tweaks to each build at the bottom ..Its imporatnt to know that situational BIS is important at end game raiding ..
These builds even go as far as to include the best Sigils to maximize Synergies .. very well done-
And ill ad i just browsed the entire GW2 forums , i saw nothing being Hotly debated , pretty tame tbh
I think what people dont want is BiS to apply to every situation that every class and character has it. Essentially, every char would have it and there would be no diversity. That is what people dont want.
What is unavoidable is BiS-situations which is always a given in any combat game and is unavoidable.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
There should be no such thing as best in slot. Your play style should determine whats best for you.
See ESO.
You're a PvPer not a raider. For PvP ESO is relatively BIS-free although some would argue that.
For the highest difficulty raiding content and hitting 40K+ DPS there most certainly is BiS gear as well as BiS skills for each class and build.
What percentage of the total content of the game is that specific content ?
Look the ESO forums... people are arguing at at least 10 different builds for the same purpose (I won't say role, because it's more blurry than than in ESO)... with different skills and different gear; Depending on which skill you choose, you may want a total different armor set to be kinda "BIS". The number of combos is huge.
In WoW, a specific class/spec will indeed have its "BIS" items. In ESO, just change one skill and you may want a totally different set.
I like ESO, but come on.
You play what you're told to play. You gear they way you are told to gear. You setup skills the way you are told to set up skills.
OR
You don't get invited for endgame content. Just like every other game these days.
I don't like the idea of best in slot items. I like best tier of items sure, but not best actual item for any individual purpose. I really, really dislike PvP gear. It shouldn't exist. Also, a character in a RPG should not be a jack of all trades. It is even worse in an MMO where you have hundreds if not thousands of people running around, all professionals at everything.
I always like the way UO did it. No best in slot. Just different tiers. Everything was based upon your skill. Everyone could equip the same items (well if your strength was low you'd have a hard time moving around in plate!). Everything was made by the community. You played your role. No switching "Plate of stupidface" for "Plate of fartface" so you could perform better in any particular dungeon or war. You had plate, it was plate. Plate was plate, leather was leather... You made your class.
Ive been playing UO 21 years now , there absolutley is BIS for any encounter , my guild is raiding Osiredon this weekend , i will be bringing 4 bows with me that will handle the Boss and any adds , i will be wearing BiS jewelry for this encounter and the proper BiS armor for this encounter ..
And to Add plate is not plate ..even in its base form different ores gave diffeerent resists , and be even further specialized and enhanced thru Imbueing ..
Even in its earliest form UO plate chain and leather had different advantages .. Dependent on its base material
This is a ss of what armor can be in UO its a Greater Artifact , there are better BiS , this is just an everyday piece of gear for me ..
This is a weapon i had drop from a Ancient Wyrm and altho a Lesser Artifact its pull was quite nice and is a very nice weapon for general use and a BiS for general use two hand build with Lumberjacking ..
So as we can see , that even a Random Loot game which are my favortite from UO ,AC ,D&D online ,SWG and PG , each have Random Loot but each also have Rare named drops .. and/or the Loot Table still permits and turns out BiS and then can be Enhanced/Imbued/Traited etc if its short in some area ...
I honestly couldn't care less about Trammel and afterwards. UO DIED after Trammel. I played from start and a bit of Trammel. There were no BIS. You are just including everything post-trammel which most people won't reference. The UO that was popular and populated did not have all this bullshit you are talking about. Plate did NOT give resistance. It basically became about what colour you wanted. One Katana made from one GM was the same as any other Katana made by another GM. The only difference was if you poisoned it.
There were no best in slot items back then. The armour with different advantages (leather, plate) were all dependent on your made-up class. They weren't situational dependent.
Had you actually played from the beginning you would have known all this. Hence my usage of past tense. But instead you pretend you played from the start to act like a vet.
I don't like the idea of best in slot items. I like best tier of items sure, but not best actual item for any individual purpose. I really, really dislike PvP gear. It shouldn't exist. Also, a character in a RPG should not be a jack of all trades. It is even worse in an MMO where you have hundreds if not thousands of people running around, all professionals at everything.
I always like the way UO did it. No best in slot. Just different tiers. Everything was based upon your skill. Everyone could equip the same items (well if your strength was low you'd have a hard time moving around in plate!). Everything was made by the community. You played your role. No switching "Plate of stupidface" for "Plate of fartface" so you could perform better in any particular dungeon or war. You had plate, it was plate. Plate was plate, leather was leather... You made your class.
Ive been playing UO 21 years now , there absolutley is BIS for any encounter , my guild is raiding Osiredon this weekend , i will be bringing 4 bows with me that will handle the Boss and any adds , i will be wearing BiS jewelry for this encounter and the proper BiS armor for this encounter ..
And to Add plate is not plate ..even in its base form different ores gave diffeerent resists , and be even further specialized and enhanced thru Imbueing ..
Even in its earliest form UO plate chain and leather had different advantages .. Dependent on its base material
This is a ss of what armor can be in UO its a Greater Artifact , there are better BiS , this is just an everyday piece of gear for me ..
This is a weapon i had drop from a Ancient Wyrm and altho a Lesser Artifact its pull was quite nice and is a very nice weapon for general use and a BiS for general use two hand build with Lumberjacking ..
So as we can see , that even a Random Loot game which are my favortite from UO ,AC ,D&D online ,SWG and PG , each have Random Loot but each also have Rare named drops .. and/or the Loot Table still permits and turns out BiS and then can be Enhanced/Imbued/Traited etc if its short in some area ...
I honestly couldn't care less about Trammel and afterwards. UO DIED after Trammel. I played from start and a bit of Trammel. There were no BIS. You are just including everything post-trammel which most people won't reference. The UO that was popular and populated did not have all this bullshit you are talking about. Plate did NOT give resistance. It basically became about what colour you wanted. One Katana made from one GM was the same as any other Katana made by another GM. The only difference was if you poisoned it.
There were no best in slot items back then. The armour with different advantages (leather, plate) were all dependent on your made-up class. They weren't situational dependent.
Had you actually played from the beginning you would have known all this. Hence my usage of past tense. But instead you pretend you played from the start to act like a vet.
No im not and made it very clear even at launch , different ores gave different Stats to armor weapons , and there most ceratinly was BiS
for ex .. A Silver Vanquishing Supremely Accurate Indestrucible Bow .. was BIS for killing Undead These are Pre Trammel Mods
And all these mods and tiers of them could apply to any Katanna as well
a BiS armor may look like this ..
A Invulnerable Indestruble Platemail Tunic that would of been BiS pre Trammel for a tank build
Giving + 25 Hps for Indestrucable ( which is alot ) in UO
Giving + +20 / +1.4, +2.8, +8.8 to AR which again is alot in UO
And ive played from beta and day 1 all 21 years ..I just received my 21 year rewards very cool stuff ..
I tend to agree with @Scorchien that as long as you have slots there will always be BIS just like there are best rotations and best ability builds in games that allow flexibility with those things as well.
It's in the nature of most players, myself included, to test and push things to try to achieve the best results with our game play.
But like I and others have already said in this thread, I much prefer having a range of BiS, best rotations and best skills for different situations and different types of game play.
The part of the OP I didn't like was the implication that in order to obtain that one and only BiS you needed to partake in every different part of the game whether you wanted to or not since different parts of that BIS came from different types of game play.
I already see where that idea leads and the resentment it causes in games like ESO where PvErs need to do some PvP to get a couple of abilities you can only get there that are essential to PvE builds and viceversa with PvPers needing to do some PvE content for gear essential for PvP (monster head and shoulders.)
That kind of game design just rubs me the wrong way since I dislike forced anything in MMOs.
Especially the forced "paying" part.
I always sub to the MMOs I like and play. I have no problem whatsoever with "forced" subs.
The nickle and dimeing of F2P game is a different story though and most of those can just go fuck themselves
Whoa, easy there, winking face Tor....just funning with you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
your 100% wrong and all the reasons are already given in this thread .. yes Exotics were BiS at the time ..
Yes DDO has BiS
Yes situational gear is BIS , to think otherwise is foolish if you enter a (particular raid) and the other Tank has Better Armor sword ..everything than you for ex .. Guess what you dont have BiS .. And you will be a lesser tank ...
There may be discussions of which actual Class is better , but each class has BiS gear .. All you need to do is look up any game look at the gear .. One of them is going to best for your Build and or Sitation .. There is no getting away from it ..
Draconic Exotic sets GW2 were BIS for a long time ..
And there is always an obvious choice at end game there many resources to look up for any of these games that will give you exact builds in Skill and gear to achieve best output for any class/role/build
and ill tell ya if you are not preparing your role/class for situational combat with BiS you will never raid seriuously in any of these games .. Thats where BiS is needed and demanded ..For situational BIS
And ill add i just browsed the entire GW2 forums , i cant find anyone hotly debating anything
Ok, just a
heads up, if it was that easy, do you think I would use it as an example? I am
insulted.
But, because I think this could be a lot of fun and it might help anyone else
who is wondering how you can make a game that does not have BiS gear.
Lets start:
Draconic is an Appearance, the art style of the armor piece, IE: the way it
looks.
Just to note, Draconic is Crafted Exotic Plate Armor. Other armor styles
(leather/cloth) and tiers (Common/Rare) have their own style and look with
their own unique names.
Since this kind of armor was/is super easy to make, and cheap to buy, it was
very popular, and often upon making 80th, players who wore Full Plate, would just
go out and buy a full set off the Trading Post, making it a very common set of
armor, if not the most common armor among plat wearers at the time, and I
imagine still today, as is still serviceable, only being like 3% less overall
stats then Ascended.
But, just so everyone is clear on this, it was still just Exotic Armor, it's stats
were no better or worse than any other kind of Exotic Plate Armor in the game,
if you went dungeon running and Got CoF, SE, TA, HotW, Araha, or any of the
Dungeon armor sets, it was all still just Exotic, all with identical stats
contingent on type (Heavy/Medium/Light)
It was just a different look, the whole game was about players farming content
for style not stats, hence the Moniker "Fashion Wars 2"
So I’ll say it again, The stats were all identical, there was no BiS.
Now, originally, Exotic only gave you a boon to 3 stats (unless you went
All-Stat, which gave you a much lesser boon to all your stats). So, there was
going to be a trade off no matter what you did.
So because of that players needed to make concessions on what you gain vs what
you lose, again, there has been and still ongoing debate on what trade-offs are
the best to make.
Case in point a Cele (Celestial Stat Combo/All-Stat) vs Zerker (Berserker Stat
Combo/Power/Precision/Ferocity) Elementalist on which one is in fact better,
and is still not resolved, now ongoing 6+ years.
Much like the disagreement between using Assassins or Berserker, and often the
stat combs get mixed, because there really is no BiS stat. It came down to how
you wanted to play, what you valued, and what trade-offs you were willing to make.
Again, just so everyone is clear on this, when GW2 launched, Exotic, was the
only level 80 gear, as such, it was not the BiS gear, it was the ONLY level
appropriate gear you could get, so no one was left with settling for “sub-par”
equipment on their max level character.... and it was cheap and plentiful.
Now, I have already said, this ONLY applied to a time before Ascended was put
in. I am going to say that again, because this is important. When GW2
launched, they had no BiS gear, they had one kind of level appropriate gear,
and all other grinding was purely cosmetic.
When GW2 added in Ascended, that changed their whole dynamic of not having BiS
gear, and since Raids, which were added much later with HoT, they also do not
apply to this discussion or situation.
So we can see GW2 took the path of through simplicity they made equality, by making
a single gear tier for max level “Exotic” they removed the presence of BiS gear
altogether. No one has better gear than anyone else as long as they are wearing
level appropriate gear.
So if someone
was thinking of a way to make a game that does not have BiS gear, one process
is a “less is more” approach where there is a only one “type/tier/level” of
armor for various levels that everyone can easily get, so no one has “better
gear” then anyone else.
With that
process explained.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
DDO is a very complex MMO, not just in character building, but also in gear, stats, skills, combos, effects, as well as many mobs having their own abilities, challenges, special attacks, immunities, and the whole game is about checks and balances. There will always be trade-offs, in DDO, and choices you need to make.
As such, anyone that thinks something as mundane as the Sword of Shadows is the BiS gear, never played the game at all. On top of that, I did already mention that weapon in my previous post about DDO, which just shows some people were not paying attention.
Anyway.
In fact, DDO is so complex that it does not really have “Situational” BiS gear, you have “Mob Type Specific” gear, and you end up using that to handle individual mobs, but they don’t come at you in neat packages so you get to use what you have perfected for this situation.
Case in point, just to get a feel for what DDO does to you. You start out in a small fishing village in Korthos, and you go into a starting Dungeon, and this is where you learn that you meet your first Undead, which are Skeletons and Zombies.. now.. get this.. Skeletons are resistance to Slashing Weapons, so you need to use a Blunt to cut them down, Zombies are Resistant to Blunt and you need to use Slashing to Cut them down, and they come at you together.
This is your wake-up call that you do not have BiS weapons in this game, you will need to make choices, and deal with it, there is no “Catch All” here.
And this is a Starting Level Dungeon in DDO, and it only gets worse as you go higher up.
Like for example, you might find yourself face to face with a cluster of Smoke, Fire, and Ice imps all in the same room, several of each, all want you dead, and each one has its own unique immunity, abilities and attacks.
Wanna guess what the Fire Imp Shoots at you?
So, knowing you are going to take a fire-ball to the face walking in, (if not several), this is a great time to pause and think before you charge in, do you use your Fire Resist Breastplate, or just keep on the Highest AC plate you have and hope to dodge/live though the attack? Well.. the Fire Resist Plate, would make it so the Fire Imp hurts less, but then the Ice and Smoke are still going to rip into you fully as the Fire Resist plate is not the best AC, you had to make a trade off there, AC for Resists. So.. Ice Blasts might hurt less then fire balls, are you ready to walk in and find out.. and deal with the choice you made?
Well no matter what you do, you’re going to settle, you are going to make a choice at this point, as there really is no BiS item that helps you here, you’re going to make a concession on how you want to handle this encounter, and your choice is not going to be the same as the person next to you, it does not make your choice better or worse than theirs, it was just how you chose deal with the situation.
Next..
Wanna Guess what the Fire Imp is immune to?
Well your Flaming Great Sword is not going to be the best weapon to use on the Fire Imp, but it might be your best weapon to use on the Ice Imp.. so maybe you break out that trusty BiS Sword of Shadows, and end up doing less damage to the Ice Imp and more to the Fire? But keep in mind it has a 50% chance to miss the smoke imp. So, that is a decision you will have to make, and no matter what you do, You’re going to make a trade-off here, the question is, what will it be.
Well, we can see in those situations, you need to make a call on what works for you, what trade- offs you will take, and a trade-off is the counter balance to BiS.
If you need to make a trade-off, it's not BiS.
So by complex mobs, and loot tables, a game like DDO makes you think about encounters, makes you make hard choices, and in the end, you will need to make a concession, you will need to accept that you are going to have make some trade-offs in how you handle encounters, and in some cases you will fall short, no matter how much gear you dragged along with you.
And while make no mistake DDO does have a lot of gear, and a lot of high end hard to get, farm and raid till your eyes bleed gear, no matter what you have, it really will come down to a choice of what effects and abilities you will make trade offs for, for each encounter. It is not as simple as Your Sword is +5 and mine is +6, ergo mine is better. And just like people that look at the Sword of Shadows, and think that is the BiS weapon, they have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes in this game. So, in a way, DDO can give the illusion of BiS items, bit in its complexity it really does not have any.
I hope this is helped the other people on this forum that were wondering how a game can be made that does not have BiS gear.
It can be done either thought simplicity, like GW2 or vast Complexity like DDO.
Those are two examples I have, I am sure others might have more.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Thanks. I think I understand now. Did I misunderstand "Best in Slot" in the first place?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Feel free to list the loot tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
Ascended gear with Agony and Stat infusions that will parse the best for your role wether thats DPS /Healing etc.. or survivability to tank in Fractals
here is a BIS DPS build that includes Gear/Skills/Rotations/Specializations .. to achive highest DPS
there are Builds for BIS builds for every class/raid/situation pve or pvp ..
There is no escaping..
These games are built on Math
Math is always true , and Math cant be disputed , when tested and these are heavily on pArse they deliver , Now a player can fail , and not dleiver the DPS needed , But then your Player is actually not the BiS for your raid and you need to find another ..
And if you notice there are encounter specific tweaks to each build at the bottom ..Its imporatnt to know that situational BIS is important at end game raiding ..
These builds even go as far as to include the best Sigils to maximize Synergies .. very well done-
And ill ad i just browsed the entire GW2 forums , i saw nothing being Hotly debated , pretty tame tbh
Well as much as you may love math.. you seem to keep missing that I am only talking about the time before Ascended was put in.. so maybe lay off the math and brush up on your reading skills.
But, just to say this again, Raids which came out with HoT, which was long after Ascended was put in, are not part of this discussion, neither are Fractals which came out with Ascended, which is just showing how painful your lack of knowledge about GW2 really is.
Truth is, when GW2 launched, there was no BiS slot gear, there was only Standard 80th Level Gear called Exotics, now, you can cry all you want otherwise, but you will still be wrong about this no matter how many convoluted and ill informed links you post.
And Meta Battle's math is not a Holy Grail as you may believe it to be.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I tend to agree with @Scorchien that as long as you have slots there will always be BIS just like there are best rotations and best ability builds in games that allow flexibility with those things as well.
It's in the nature of most players, myself included, to test and push things to try to achieve the best results with our game play.
I think this is why BiS is such a foreign term to me. I don't min/max. I play character concepts. I'm aware that some gear give "better" stats, but if it doesn't fit with what "my character would do", I don't use it.
Or, I used to, when I played MMORPGs...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Feel free to list the loot tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
Ungood Said
"Well as much as you may love math.. you seem to keep missing that I am only talking about the time before Ascended was put in.. so maybe lay off the math and brush up on your reading skills."
Ill put it here again very close to the other so it sinks in ... This was your request..
Feel free to list the loot
tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each
class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
Unless of course you are tring to tell us that GW2 launch Exotics are currently being Hotly disputed 6 years later ..LMFAO .. we cant make this shit up
No .. this was your request , maybe you need to brush up on saying what you mean not meaning what you say ..And your wording of Still being , implies a present tense( so you were provided with exactly waht you asked for) .. Ceratainly one of needs to brush up on reading skills true dat..Another example of you not even aware of what you asked for .. The community is becoming accustomed to this as we experienced it in other threads
and this was the response which undoubtedly proves that GW2 has BiS ..It has it now and it had it prior to with Exotics
Ascended gear with Agony and Stat infusions that will parse the best for
your role wether thats DPS /Healing etc.. or survivability to tank in
Fractals
here is a BIS DPS build that includes Gear/Skills/Rotations/Specializations .. to achive highest DPS
there are Builds for BIS builds for every class/raid/situation pve or pvp ..
There is no escaping..
These games are built on Math
Math
is always true , and Math cant be disputed , when tested and these are
heavily on pArse they deliver , Now a player can fail , and not dleiver
the DPS needed , But then your Player is actually not the BiS for your
raid and you need to find another ..
And if you notice
there are encounter specific tweaks to each build at the bottom ..Its
imporatnt to know that situational BIS is important at end game raiding
..
These builds even go as far as to include the best Sigils to maximize Synergies .. very well done-
And ill ad i just browsed the entire GW2 forums , i saw nothing being Hotly debated , pretty tame tbh
Now let me help you with of your misguided thoughts..
When GW2 launched and you just started playing with that crappy weapon , you desired better ..
You saved villages for a better weapon , you killed worms for an even better weapon
You defeated a world boss for an even better weapon ..
Then you got to lvl 80 you obtained an exotic , the best one fit for your build .. Guess what
You now have BiS .. (homogenized in GW2 launch fashion but still BIS)) There is no Better weapon suited for your build/style , the only thing left now is Obtaining Encounter specific BiS ..
I can only imagine at this juncture you decided to go to your bank where you had stashed your all powerful starter weapon and decided to run with that , Or did you keep the Best weapon available for your Build BiS(Exotic) and run with that .. The world may never know with your convuluted twisting and turning logic
Everyone knows that GW2 homogenized gear and builds at its launch(they were targeting the Casual and did there best to homogenize) but there is still BiS .. you wanted the best weapon for your build/style that you could obtain ....And it also does not matter how many people have it .. If we reduce it to
wood sword 3 dps/ Stone sword 6 dps / Iron sword 10 dps and these are the only wepons in game .. Guess what the Iron Sword is ... yes its BiS..
Or are you a player that settled for a lesser weapon Knowing full well there was better you could have ..
Now you can quibble over well this one has 3 more precision than the other and this one has more power.. Its semantics which you do excel at and moving goal posts which ive experienced before ( hows that exploration of Greece going ) Can you verbally form an opinion yet after exploring 98% of it or are you still a mute when it comes to answering that question...
Now we all realize that games evolve , and the loot table in GW2 has expanded , and so has the table of BiS any serious Raid guild will point you directly to it They did then and they do now , and i showed those builds earlier ..
These games are dissected like lab frogs , and the BiS class/race/skill/rotation/gear are known rather quickly and tested extensivley .. All of them , there are no exceptions particularly at end game raiding ..
There are no heated debates on this .. as you implied ..
You now have BiS .. (homogenized in GW2 launch fashion but still BIS)) There is no Better weapon suited for your build/style , the only thing left now is Obtaining Encounter specific BiS ..
This has to be the most pathetic pandering to wanting to be right I have ever heard.
If all the gear is equal, there is no BiS, there is only "Level 80 gear" as there is no "Better" gear you could have slotted, and in GW2, there are more then one path to the same end result.
I get it, like many others times I have talked with you, you will never, ever, no matter what, realize you are wrong. It is just the way you are, I should have known better then to bother.
With that said, Sure, you can now go nerd rage for 3 more pages of how you refuse to be wrong about this, but, at the end of the day, you will still be wrong.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You now have BiS .. (homogenized in GW2 launch fashion but still BIS)) There is no Better weapon suited for your build/style , the only thing left now is Obtaining Encounter specific BiS ..
This has to be the most pathetic pandering to wanting to be right I have ever heard.
If all the gear is equal, there is no BiS, there is only "Level 80 gear" as there is no "Better" gear you could have slotted, and in GW2, there are more then one path to the same end result.
I get it, like many others times I have talked with you, you will never, ever, no matter what, realize you are wrong. It is just the way you are, I should have known better then to bother.
With that said, Sure, you can now go nerd rage for 3 more pages of how you refuse to be wrong about this, but, at the end of the day, you will still be wrong.
Lol ok .. move along then..
But lets be clear all the gear is NOT equal is it ..Unless you are telling us now that everything below Exotic is Equal to Exotic ....
Silly isnt it ..
An ill add if ALL Exotics are Equal then all Exotics are BiS for there build .. Its really very simple ..
We all Know Exotic were Best weapon/armor to get at GW2 launch ..
One of those Weapons was Best for your Build /period .. it is now BiS
DDO is a very complex MMO, not just in character building, but also in gear, stats, skills, combos, effects, as well as many mobs having their own abilities, challenges, special attacks, immunities, and the whole game is about checks and balances. There will always be trade-offs, in DDO, and choices you need to make.
As such, anyone that thinks something as mundane as the Sword of Shadows is the BiS gear, never played the game at all. On top of that, I did already mention that weapon in my previous post about DDO, which just shows some people were not paying attention.
Anyway.
In fact, DDO is so complex that it does not really have “Situational” BiS gear, you have “Mob Type Specific” gear, and you end up using that to handle individual mobs, but they don’t come at you in neat packages so you get to use what you have perfected for this situation.
Case in point, just to get a feel for what DDO does to you. You start out in a small fishing village in Korthos, and you go into a starting Dungeon, and this is where you learn that you meet your first Undead, which are Skeletons and Zombies.. now.. get this.. Skeletons are resistance to Slashing Weapons, so you need to use a Blunt to cut them down, Zombies are Resistant to Blunt and you need to use Slashing to Cut them down, and they come at you together.
This is your wake-up call that you do not have BiS weapons in this game, you will need to make choices, and deal with it, there is no “Catch All” here.
And this is a Starting Level Dungeon in DDO, and it only gets worse as you go higher up.
Like for example, you might find yourself face to face with a cluster of Smoke, Fire, and Ice imps all in the same room, several of each, all want you dead, and each one has its own unique immunity, abilities and attacks.
Wanna guess what the Fire Imp Shoots at you?
So, knowing you are going to take a fire-ball to the face walking in, (if not several), this is a great time to pause and think before you charge in, do you use your Fire Resist Breastplate, or just keep on the Highest AC plate you have and hope to dodge/live though the attack? Well.. the Fire Resist Plate, would make it so the Fire Imp hurts less, but then the Ice and Smoke are still going to rip into you fully as the Fire Resist plate is not the best AC, you had to make a trade off there, AC for Resists. So.. Ice Blasts might hurt less then fire balls, are you ready to walk in and find out.. and deal with the choice you made?
Well no matter what you do, you’re going to settle, you are going to make a choice at this point, as there really is no BiS item that helps you here, you’re going to make a concession on how you want to handle this encounter, and your choice is not going to be the same as the person next to you, it does not make your choice better or worse than theirs, it was just how you chose deal with the situation.
Next..
Wanna Guess what the Fire Imp is immune to?
Well your Flaming Great Sword is not going to be the best weapon to use on the Fire Imp, but it might be your best weapon to use on the Ice Imp.. so maybe you break out that trusty BiS Sword of Shadows, and end up doing less damage to the Ice Imp and more to the Fire? But keep in mind it has a 50% chance to miss the smoke imp. So, that is a decision you will have to make, and no matter what you do, You’re going to make a trade-off here, the question is, what will it be.
Well, we can see in those situations, you need to make a call on what works for you, what trade- offs you will take, and a trade-off is the counter balance to BiS.
If you need to make a trade-off, it's not BiS.
So by complex mobs, and loot tables, a game like DDO makes you think about encounters, makes you make hard choices, and in the end, you will need to make a concession, you will need to accept that you are going to have make some trade-offs in how you handle encounters, and in some cases you will fall short, no matter how much gear you dragged along with you.
And while make no mistake DDO does have a lot of gear, and a lot of high end hard to get, farm and raid till your eyes bleed gear, no matter what you have, it really will come down to a choice of what effects and abilities you will make trade offs for, for each encounter. It is not as simple as Your Sword is +5 and mine is +6, ergo mine is better. And just like people that look at the Sword of Shadows, and think that is the BiS weapon, they have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes in this game. So, in a way, DDO can give the illusion of BiS items, bit in its complexity it really does not have any.
I hope this is helped the other people on this forum that were wondering how a game can be made that does not have BiS gear.
It can be done either thought simplicity, like GW2 or vast Complexity like DDO.
Those are two examples I have, I am sure others might have more.
DDO always had BiS for xyz "build" gear. This also included BiS for utility builds which is why you see 10 slotbars for gear swaps/clickies etc etc.
The big variety in builds made BiS more modular though which might make some people think there was no BiS gear but there was it was not just limited like in some games where this weapon was "the BIS" for this class.
Hell if you did lots of past life grind you even have your twinking gear which was basically BiS for quick leveling runs from 1 to 20 without being too class or build specific.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If you are going to argue about the intricacies of a game, that requires you have at least some inner working of how the game functions or it's community, at least have some clue about the game you want to argue about, otherwise that 5 "AH HA!" google search you did to try and prove your point, just parades your ignorance to the person you are arguing against, it does not prove your point, and all too often, because you don't know what you are talking about, it just shows how clueless you really are.
Just a PSA.
Also, I'll say this again.
Situational Gear, is not BiS.
I don't care how much someone wants to cry, throw a fit, or have a tantrum, if I have to change my gear for various different encounter, then my gear was not BiS. Best in Slot, means this is the Best Item you can Slot.. This is the last piece of gear I should ever need to own. Anything else.. is just not BiS.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If you are going to argue about the intricacies of a game, that requires you have at least some inner working of how the game functions or it's community, at least have some clue about the game you want to argue about, otherwise that 5 "AH HA!" google search you did to try and prove your point, just parades your ignorance to the person you are arguing against, it does not prove your point, and all too often, because you don't know what you are talking about, it just shows how clueless you really are.
Just a PSA.
Also, I'll say this again.
Situational Gear, is not BiS.
I don't care how much someone wants to cry, throw a fit, or have a tantrum, if I have to change my gear for various different encounter, then my gear was not BiS. Best in Slot, means this is the Best Item you can Slot.. This is the last piece of gear I should ever need to own. Anything else.. is just not BiS.
clueless ............. If you dont think there is situational BiS you dont even belong in the discussion ..
Its very common , mechainic of all these games including GW2 , just go back and look at the builds i showed you earlier ..
And oddly enough most all games today push players towards Situational BiS gear ...
Comments
I always like the way UO did it. No best in slot. Just different tiers. Everything was based upon your skill. Everyone could equip the same items (well if your strength was low you'd have a hard time moving around in plate!). Everything was made by the community. You played your role. No switching "Plate of stupidface" for "Plate of fartface" so you could perform better in any particular dungeon or war. You had plate, it was plate. Plate was plate, leather was leather... You made your class.
The nickle and dimeing of F2P game is a different story though and most of those can just go fuck themselves
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Obviously the days of being on a bat phone list, to get that call in the middle of the night just so the next guildie on the list might have a small shot of getting the item desired, is over. That being said, I personally think that getting the best in slot item is a big deal and should be kind of hard and it definitely shouldn't be acquired from a ingame store. Im not a developer though and I imagine finding that sweet spot for your game base is kind of hard.
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
At First, GW2, did not have BiS gear. The game started with Exotic being the only level 80 gear, as such there was no other choice for Level Appropriate Gear. As such there was no BiS gear Tier, there was only what was appropriate for your level.
Again, this was before Ascended was introduced.
On top of that, there was no "Obvious" choice what gear was better for a class or a build, as their is still discussions going on for 6+ years now on which gear combinations are in fact meta. Case in point the Zerker Ele vs the Cele Ele, it's still not resolved which is in fact better.
With that said, Ascended only further muddied what gear stat combo's were in fact better, and Infusions only added to the mess. before I left, there was a lot of contention on which is better, Vipers vs Marauders. A lot of this is very play style dependent and not simply a number crunched "BiS". Meta is always in flux in that game.
So.. no.. GW2, did not have BiS gear when it first came out. And while Legendary is the current BiS type of gear, there is still no specific stat combo that is really BiS.
And in a final note, Situational Gear is the Antitheses to BiS, as gear that is situational by the nature of being Situational, is not the best gear you can get, all gear value is contingent upon what you are dealing with as such, it's never truly "The Best in Slot" it is simply "Good for the Situation"
In Games like DDO, that never really gave you a myopic situation, there was no real BiS gear. There was a lot of gear that was very optimal for a variety of situations, like a prime example would be the Min II Greensteel weapons, they were a very good all around weapon that could be used for a variety of situations, in many cases, a solid go-to dependable weapon across a variety of situations, but, a Lit II Greensteel had better overall DPS if you didn't need to break DR. Now, a Lit II and a Min II were Raid gear, but.. if you were facing a Pit Fiend, a Holy Burst Silver Weapon of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, would be a better choice, which was, as Irony would have it, not the best weapon to kill the Pit Fields Minions and Guards.
But.. no.. situational weapons, are not BiS. If you need keep swapping your Armor, then neither of them are really BiS, as each is equal to the other for a different situation.. hence why you need to swap to begin with.
Feel free to list the loot tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
What is unavoidable is BiS-situations which is always a given in any combat game and is unavoidable.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
You play what you're told to play. You gear they way you are told to gear. You setup skills the way you are told to set up skills.
OR
You don't get invited for endgame content. Just like every other game these days.
There were no best in slot items back then. The armour with different advantages (leather, plate) were all dependent on your made-up class. They weren't situational dependent.
Had you actually played from the beginning you would have known all this. Hence my usage of past tense. But instead you pretend you played from the start to act like a vet.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ok, just a heads up, if it was that easy, do you think I would use it as an example? I am insulted.
But, because I think this could be a lot of fun and it might help anyone else who is wondering how you can make a game that does not have BiS gear.
Lets start:
Draconic is an Appearance, the art style of the armor piece, IE: the way it looks.
Just to note, Draconic is Crafted Exotic Plate Armor. Other armor styles (leather/cloth) and tiers (Common/Rare) have their own style and look with their own unique names.
Since this kind of armor was/is super easy to make, and cheap to buy, it was very popular, and often upon making 80th, players who wore Full Plate, would just go out and buy a full set off the Trading Post, making it a very common set of armor, if not the most common armor among plat wearers at the time, and I imagine still today, as is still serviceable, only being like 3% less overall stats then Ascended.
But, just so everyone is clear on this, it was still just Exotic Armor, it's stats were no better or worse than any other kind of Exotic Plate Armor in the game, if you went dungeon running and Got CoF, SE, TA, HotW, Araha, or any of the Dungeon armor sets, it was all still just Exotic, all with identical stats contingent on type (Heavy/Medium/Light)
It was just a different look, the whole game was about players farming content for style not stats, hence the Moniker "Fashion Wars 2"
So I’ll say it again, The stats were all identical, there was no BiS.
Now, originally, Exotic only gave you a boon to 3 stats (unless you went All-Stat, which gave you a much lesser boon to all your stats). So, there was going to be a trade off no matter what you did.
So because of that players needed to make concessions on what you gain vs what you lose, again, there has been and still ongoing debate on what trade-offs are the best to make.
Case in point a Cele (Celestial Stat Combo/All-Stat) vs Zerker (Berserker Stat Combo/Power/Precision/Ferocity) Elementalist on which one is in fact better, and is still not resolved, now ongoing 6+ years.
Much like the disagreement between using Assassins or Berserker, and often the stat combs get mixed, because there really is no BiS stat. It came down to how you wanted to play, what you valued, and what trade-offs you were willing to make.
Again, just so everyone is clear on this, when GW2 launched, Exotic, was the only level 80 gear, as such, it was not the BiS gear, it was the ONLY level appropriate gear you could get, so no one was left with settling for “sub-par” equipment on their max level character.... and it was cheap and plentiful.
Now, I have already said, this ONLY applied to a time before Ascended was put in. I am going to say that again, because this is important. When GW2 launched, they had no BiS gear, they had one kind of level appropriate gear, and all other grinding was purely cosmetic.
When GW2 added in Ascended, that changed their whole dynamic of not having BiS gear, and since Raids, which were added much later with HoT, they also do not apply to this discussion or situation.
So we can see GW2 took the path of through simplicity they made equality, by making a single gear tier for max level “Exotic” they removed the presence of BiS gear altogether. No one has better gear than anyone else as long as they are wearing level appropriate gear.
So if someone was thinking of a way to make a game that does not have BiS gear, one process is a “less is more” approach where there is a only one “type/tier/level” of armor for various levels that everyone can easily get, so no one has “better gear” then anyone else.
With that process explained.
Let move on to DDO.
DDO is a very complex MMO, not just in character building, but also in gear, stats, skills, combos, effects, as well as many mobs having their own abilities, challenges, special attacks, immunities, and the whole game is about checks and balances. There will always be trade-offs, in DDO, and choices you need to make.
As such, anyone that thinks something as mundane as the Sword of Shadows is the BiS gear, never played the game at all. On top of that, I did already mention that weapon in my previous post about DDO, which just shows some people were not paying attention.
Anyway.
In fact, DDO is so complex that it does not really have “Situational” BiS gear, you have “Mob Type Specific” gear, and you end up using that to handle individual mobs, but they don’t come at you in neat packages so you get to use what you have perfected for this situation.
Case in point, just to get a feel for what DDO does to you. You start out in a small fishing village in Korthos, and you go into a starting Dungeon, and this is where you learn that you meet your first Undead, which are Skeletons and Zombies.. now.. get this.. Skeletons are resistance to Slashing Weapons, so you need to use a Blunt to cut them down, Zombies are Resistant to Blunt and you need to use Slashing to Cut them down, and they come at you together.
This is your wake-up call that you do not have BiS weapons in this game, you will need to make choices, and deal with it, there is no “Catch All” here.
And this is a Starting Level Dungeon in DDO, and it only gets worse as you go higher up.
Like for example, you might find yourself face to face with a cluster of Smoke, Fire, and Ice imps all in the same room, several of each, all want you dead, and each one has its own unique immunity, abilities and attacks.
Wanna guess what the Fire Imp Shoots at you?
So, knowing you are going to take a fire-ball to the face walking in, (if not several), this is a great time to pause and think before you charge in, do you use your Fire Resist Breastplate, or just keep on the Highest AC plate you have and hope to dodge/live though the attack? Well.. the Fire Resist Plate, would make it so the Fire Imp hurts less, but then the Ice and Smoke are still going to rip into you fully as the Fire Resist plate is not the best AC, you had to make a trade off there, AC for Resists. So.. Ice Blasts might hurt less then fire balls, are you ready to walk in and find out.. and deal with the choice you made?
Well no matter what you do, you’re going to settle, you are going to make a choice at this point, as there really is no BiS item that helps you here, you’re going to make a concession on how you want to handle this encounter, and your choice is not going to be the same as the person next to you, it does not make your choice better or worse than theirs, it was just how you chose deal with the situation.
Next..
Wanna Guess what the Fire Imp is immune to?
Well your Flaming Great Sword is not going to be the best weapon to use on the Fire Imp, but it might be your best weapon to use on the Ice Imp.. so maybe you break out that trusty BiS Sword of Shadows, and end up doing less damage to the Ice Imp and more to the Fire? But keep in mind it has a 50% chance to miss the smoke imp. So, that is a decision you will have to make, and no matter what you do, You’re going to make a trade-off here, the question is, what will it be.
Well, we can see in those situations, you need to make a call on what works for you, what trade- offs you will take, and a trade-off is the counter balance to BiS.
If you need to make a trade-off, it's not BiS.
So by complex mobs, and loot tables, a game like DDO makes you think about encounters, makes you make hard choices, and in the end, you will need to make a concession, you will need to accept that you are going to have make some trade-offs in how you handle encounters, and in some cases you will fall short, no matter how much gear you dragged along with you.
And while make no mistake DDO does have a lot of gear, and a lot of high end hard to get, farm and raid till your eyes bleed gear, no matter what you have, it really will come down to a choice of what effects and abilities you will make trade offs for, for each encounter. It is not as simple as Your Sword is +5 and mine is +6, ergo mine is better. And just like people that look at the Sword of Shadows, and think that is the BiS weapon, they have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes in this game. So, in a way, DDO can give the illusion of BiS items, bit in its complexity it really does not have any.
I hope this is helped the other people on this forum that were wondering how a game can be made that does not have BiS gear.
It can be done either thought simplicity, like GW2 or vast Complexity like DDO.
Those are two examples I have, I am sure others might have more.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
But, just to say this again, Raids which came out with HoT, which was long after Ascended was put in, are not part of this discussion, neither are Fractals which came out with Ascended, which is just showing how painful your lack of knowledge about GW2 really is.
Truth is, when GW2 launched, there was no BiS slot gear, there was only Standard 80th Level Gear called Exotics, now, you can cry all you want otherwise, but you will still be wrong about this no matter how many convoluted and ill informed links you post.
And Meta Battle's math is not a Holy Grail as you may believe it to be.
Or, I used to, when I played MMORPGs...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Feel free to list the loot tables of GW2, and tell us all what the "Obvious" answer is for each class, as it's still being, in some cases, hotly disputed.
If all the gear is equal, there is no BiS, there is only "Level 80 gear" as there is no "Better" gear you could have slotted, and in GW2, there are more then one path to the same end result.
I get it, like many others times I have talked with you, you will never, ever, no matter what, realize you are wrong. It is just the way you are, I should have known better then to bother.
With that said, Sure, you can now go nerd rage for 3 more pages of how you refuse to be wrong about this, but, at the end of the day, you will still be wrong.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If you are going to argue about the intricacies of a game, that requires you have at least some inner working of how the game functions or it's community, at least have some clue about the game you want to argue about, otherwise that 5 "AH HA!" google search you did to try and prove your point, just parades your ignorance to the person you are arguing against, it does not prove your point, and all too often, because you don't know what you are talking about, it just shows how clueless you really are.
Just a PSA.
Also, I'll say this again.
Situational Gear, is not BiS.
I don't care how much someone wants to cry, throw a fit, or have a tantrum, if I have to change my gear for various different encounter, then my gear was not BiS. Best in Slot, means this is the Best Item you can Slot.. This is the last piece of gear I should ever need to own. Anything else.. is just not BiS.