Community got bad because not just the MMO genre, but many multiplayer genres, became about conflict and competition...and it doesn't take much looking to see every PvP game with conflict has terrible communities. And competition adds even worse communities, as seen in most competitions in real life...bring out the worst in people (for most part. Martial art competitions tend to be MOSTLY pretty respectful of each other)
I can name you countless PvP MMOs with the worst communities you'll ever see
I'd have a hard time finding a bad community as just a good an example in a PVE based game.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
My first MMO was way later, than what I assume most was here. Started in late vanilla WoW. Trying to do anything alone back then, good luck. While it was possible, was more of a challenge. Where now, I could go onto WoW. Start leveling a character and never talk to anyone the whole time. Doesn't help with LFR, I could be rolling with welfare epics.
I really miss times when you needed people, you had a rep. Most MMOs, you can be a complete and utter wanker to people and who really cares. Nothing bad it really going to happen from it.
FF14 wasn't too bad there. Basically forcing you into instances. Having insane waiting times, if you weren't a tank/healer.
Without games basically pushing people together by whatever means, making leveling hard, getting killed by opposite faction, needing others to all craft together. Where now, it seems most are just focused on more solo play. Trying to make things overall easier. Unless you are the top 1-5% that do hardcore pvp/pve. Which is another problem, it's all about the end game.
My first MMO was way later, than what I assume most was here. Started in late vanilla WoW. Trying to do anything alone back then, good luck. While it was possible, was more of a challenge. Where now, I could go onto WoW. Start leveling a character and never talk to anyone the whole time. Doesn't help with LFR, I could be rolling with welfare epics.
I really miss times when you needed people, you had a rep. Most MMOs, you can be a complete and utter wanker to people and who really cares. Nothing bad it really going to happen from it.
FF14 wasn't too bad there. Basically forcing you into instances. Having insane waiting times, if you weren't a tank/healer.
Without games basically pushing people together by whatever means, making leveling hard, getting killed by opposite faction, needing others to all craft together. Where now, it seems most are just focused on more solo play. Trying to make things overall easier. Unless you are the top 1-5% that do hardcore pvp/pve. Which is another problem, it's all about the end game.
I personally enjoyed slow leveling. Gives you opportunity to hang with same groups of people in the same areas. Seems to me that everyone is just in a hurry to reach end game. Most of the time once you reach that point then you are bored.
I remember waiting in zones to group up and actually having some of the funniest conversation with people. Come back to that zone a day or two later and find some of the same people and have great conversations and hunting again. Leveling is so quick now that you really don't have time to get to know anyone before they are leveled way beyond you. I am a casual player and that could have something to do with it but EQ was some of my most entertaining times with a community in an MMO.
I blame MMO developers for the decline in community really, and this is brought upon because of how they build their games.
See a lot of games are designed to be time sinks to players, but then developers do not respect the time that players put into their games. They will do things, like pump out expansions that raise level caps, put out whole new gear treadmills, and this invalidate all the work and effort that players put into the game already, so much so, that is begins to work against you to have been with the game for a long time, as the new stuff is better then the old stuff.
Then their are revisions to the game, which all too often take the form of nerfs, where gear, abilities, classes, combos, gear, and a slew of other things that players put a lot of time into getting become vastly weaker then they used to be, making all that effort and time a total waste.
And this is a huge Trend for MMO's to do this to players and it affects them socially, in a massive way, the more the players efforts become invalidated the more it is never going to be worth it the player to deal with annoying other people. IE: That "raid leader" that is acting like a jerk is suddenly not worth it to put up with because when a new expansion comes out, or update happens, this gear that is currently the "must have" will be vendor trash, and putting up with the headache of dealing with annoying people is just not there anymore.
That Ganker that is killing people in a starting city, it's not worth the time and effort to deal with, they can have this game, if that is what they need to play, suddenly a game that even has that kind of environment is not worth the head ache, because as a long time player of MMO's, you just know that the company won't respect your efforts, so, it becomes easier to just move on, leave those people that game, and find a new game where perhaps players are forced to be nice, or at the very least, you're able to just ignore them fully to enjoy the game.
Hence the rise in Solo Aspects of MMO's. This was not because Players want to solo, it is because game companies have for years, decades even, disrespected the time and effort players put into their game, so much so, that it is not worth the frustration of dealing with people that a player does not like, just to play a game anymore, because the rewards, whatever they may be, will never be worth it, every time a nerf happens to your raid gear, it makes dealing with that annoying raid leader less worth it.
As such, players are not in the mood to deal with other people that are less than pleasant. And it shows. That is why communities are not building. It's not about slow leveling, the reason why players won't put up with that slow leveling, is because they know that the company won't respect their grind time to earn those levels, and will just nerf some ability like it's nothing to them, and the player that just put in 20 hours getting that last level to get that ability now feels slighted. Like, you think they are going to take up long ass grinds when they know that the MMO company won't respect their efforts... screw that.
So a large part of the problem is that MMO companies just didn't respect their players time, so now players are not feeling the urge to put in that kind of time or work into their games, and the community suffers for that.
You reap what you sow.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I see that little bit different. People like higher levels people like getting better and better gear. I think the developers are just giving us what we have repeatedly showed we want. For those things at least anyway.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I blame MMO developers for the decline in community really, and this is brought upon because of how they build their games.
See a lot of games are designed to be time sinks to players, but then developers do not respect the time that players put into their games. They will do things, like pump out expansions that raise level caps, put out whole new gear treadmills, and this invalidate all the work and effort that players put into the game already, so much so, that is begins to work against you to have been with the game for a long time, as the new stuff is better then the old stuff.
Then their are revisions to the game, which all too often take the form of nerfs, where gear, abilities, classes, combos, gear, and a slew of other things that players put a lot of time into getting become vastly weaker then they used to be, making all that effort and time a total waste.
And this is a huge Trend for MMO's to do this to players and it affects them socially, in a massive way, the more the players efforts become invalidated the more it is never going to be worth it the player to deal with annoying other people. IE: That "raid leader" that is acting like a jerk is suddenly not worth it to put up with because when a new expansion comes out, or update happens, this gear that is currently the "must have" will be vendor trash, and putting up with the headache of dealing with annoying people is just not there anymore.
That Ganker that is killing people in a starting city, it's not worth the time and effort to deal with, they can have this game, if that is what they need to play, suddenly a game that even has that kind of environment is not worth the head ache, because as a long time player of MMO's, you just know that the company won't respect your efforts, so, it becomes easier to just move on, leave those people that game, and find a new game where perhaps players are forced to be nice, or at the very least, you're able to just ignore them fully to enjoy the game.
Hence the rise in Solo Aspects of MMO's. This was not because Players want to solo, it is because game companies have for years, decades even, disrespected the time and effort players put into their game, so much so, that it is not worth the frustration of dealing with people that a player does not like, just to play a game anymore, because the rewards, whatever they may be, will never be worth it, every time a nerf happens to your raid gear, it makes dealing with that annoying raid leader less worth it.
As such, players are not in the mood to deal with other people that are less than pleasant. And it shows. That is why communities are not building. It's not about slow leveling, the reason why players won't put up with that slow leveling, is because they know that the company won't respect their grind time to earn those levels, and will just nerf some ability like it's nothing to them, and the player that just put in 20 hours getting that last level to get that ability now feels slighted. Like, you think they are going to take up long ass grinds when they know that the MMO company won't respect their efforts... screw that.
So a large part of the problem is that MMO companies just didn't respect their players time, so now players are not feeling the urge to put in that kind of time or work into their games, and the community suffers for that.
You reap what you sow.
I really don't think so. Every last player has a choice to stop playing and paying their subs,
barring some kind of addiction. Plenty have stopped already. We have no one
to blame but us players.
It's not just a few. It is millions.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Ya know @AIBQuirky I have no idea how what you said, relates to what I said, and quite frankly, I am not in the mood to try and figure it out.
If you want to explain how you thought they relate, fine, if not, again fine.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It's simple math really, olden days less people were playing MMOs so you get less amount of assholes and psychos so It was easier to weed out the degenerates , present day, a lot more people play MMOs hence more assholes and psychos that makes It hard to find good players in a sea of degenerates.
It's simple math really, olden days less people were playing MMOs so you get less amount of assholes and psychos so It was easier to weed out the degenerates , present day, a lot more people play MMOs hence more assholes and psychos that makes It hard to find good players in a sea of degenerates.
Did you play UO? There were always assholes. In fact, I miss hating people in MMORPG. Most of the genre is rather sterile in player interactions and me centric.
What most people don't realize is the bad comes with the good. I don't mind having rivals or enemies to go along with friends.
It's simple math really, olden days less people were playing MMOs so you get less amount of assholes and psychos so It was easier to weed out the degenerates , present day, a lot more people play MMOs hence more assholes and psychos that makes It hard to find good players in a sea of degenerates.
Did you play UO there were always assholes. In fact, I miss hating people in MMORPG. Most of the genre is rather sterile in player interactions and me centric.
What most people don't realize is the bad comes with the good. I don't mind having rivals or enemies to go along with friends.
Good point. The world should be designed as a breeding ground for the alignment system and that should expand beyond characters and well into players themselves.
I used to be lawful-evil. Now people mistake me for a Republican.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
At the moment Pantheon and maybe one or 2 others tries to do something different, I hope they succeed!
Had to laugh at this - Pantheon is literally using EQ1 vanilla as a blueprint.
Not that this is a bad thing - just when you replicate the gameplay of EQ1 from 19 years ago - that's not exactly doing something differently, is it?
Had to laugh at that ?... Why?
It's been so long, it IS NEW !
You think you could have used a better word than "laugh". It's like you have a resentment against Pantheon for some reason. I've detected that in many of your post.
If you have a resentment it should be BDO, it takes advantage of people.
I am a Pantheon backer - I hold no resentment towards the game, I am very much looking forward to playing it in a couple of years when it launches. what are you on about?
If you see no humor in someone calling Pantheon "something different" after EQ1 has been out since 1999... come on.
I honestly think the intent is that it is something different from the trend that is currently going on. They are Targetting a niche audience without concern for cashing in in the newest and greatest.
We are in a day and age where MMO's are even bringing Battle Royale in to the fold (Skyforge)
I am looking forward to player older styled games with a newer skin.... I just want a virtual world again. Playing WoW right now and taking my time and enjoying the game like I had never played before. Trying to talk to people though? Yeah people almost never respond.
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
I've seen this exact type of player in Lineage 2. There was a ganker in the Heretics Catacomb on my server who logged in every single day, and camped that dungeon all day. They would PK any player who ever walked in, and had multiple characters on different accounts that they would log into if you somehow killed the main PKer. They capped out the PK number apparently, and just kept going.
They honestly have a little bit of truth in what they say, people would form groups in our clan to go kill the person so our lower levels could go farm there, or protect them while farming.
It's an interesting way to play though IMO. You always see players who want to be friends with everyone, usually PKs or ganks are caused by anger or irritation. If a player wants to cause issues and PK just for fun all the time, that's just a different way of playing I guess.
F2P lower entry barrier or game is PvP that's the answer of why the community is bad. Plus devs making game to make money as opposed to making games because they enjoy making games.
Ya know @AIBQuirky I have no idea how what you said, relates to what I said, and quite frankly, I am not in the mood to try and figure it out.
If you want to explain how you thought they relate, fine, if not, again fine.
You said, "I blame MMO developers..." I disagree because players appear to want exactly what they push out., thus, "Players can stop paying and playing."
You went on to elaborate quite a lot, I made my reply simple. What's not to understand?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I personally enjoyed slow leveling. Gives you opportunity to hang with same groups of people in the same areas. Seems to me that everyone is just in a hurry to reach end game. Most of the time once you reach that point then you are bored.
I remember waiting in zones to group up and actually having some of the funniest conversation with people. Come back to that zone a day or two later and find some of the same people and have great conversations and hunting again. Leveling is so quick now that you really don't have time to get to know anyone before they are leveled way beyond you. I am a casual player and that could have something to do with it but EQ was some of my most entertaining times with a community in an MMO.
Ya know @AIBQuirky I have no idea how what you said, relates to what I said, and quite frankly, I am not in the mood to try and figure it out.
If you want to explain how you thought they relate, fine, if not, again fine.
You said, "I blame MMO developers..." I disagree because players appear to want exactly what they push out., thus, "Players can stop paying and playing."
You went on to elaborate quite a lot, I made my reply simple. What's not to understand?
Yah. reading past that first line might have enlightened you, that you are mainly agreeing with my point, not disagreeing. Which is why your post may no sense to me.
But.. the simple answer is, you didn't read my post.. got it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ya know @AIBQuirky I have no idea how what you said, relates to what I said, and quite frankly, I am not in the mood to try and figure it out.
If you want to explain how you thought they relate, fine, if not, again fine.
You said, "I blame MMO developers..." I disagree because players appear to want exactly what they push out., thus, "Players can stop paying and playing."
You went on to elaborate quite a lot, I made my reply simple. What's not to understand?
Yah. reading past that first line might have enlightened you, that you are mainly agreeing with my point, not disagreeing. Which is why your post may no sense to me.
But.. the simple answer is, you didn't read my post.. got it.
Interesting. I just re-read it and nothing in there says players are to blame. It's all about the devs decisions.
My point was simply that players keep playing and paying. If MMOs didn't make money from us players, they'd be shut down, right?
Not really what you said at all, is it?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Ya know @AIBQuirky I have no idea how what you said, relates to what I said, and quite frankly, I am not in the mood to try and figure it out.
If you want to explain how you thought they relate, fine, if not, again fine.
You said, "I blame MMO developers..." I disagree because players appear to want exactly what they push out., thus, "Players can stop paying and playing."
You went on to elaborate quite a lot, I made my reply simple. What's not to understand?
Yah. reading past that first line might have enlightened you, that you are mainly agreeing with my point, not disagreeing. Which is why your post may no sense to me.
But.. the simple answer is, you didn't read my post.. got it.
Interesting. I just re-read it and nothing in there says players are to blame. It's all about the devs decisions.
My point was simply that players keep playing and paying. If MMOs didn't make money from us players, they'd be shut down, right?
Not really what you said at all, is it?
Doesn't disagree with what I said either, in fact, it's really does not relate much at all, which was my original confusion, and this exchange has offered me no clarity in how you thought the two points relate.
But, just for academia, by your logic, what everyone really wants is a McDonald's burger served stuffed in a bag with open box of fries dumped on it because people obviously buy it and buy it a lot, and that no one wants to sit down to a prime rib steak with a tall pilsner of ale because Steak and Ale Closed.
Yah.. well we shall disagree.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Fairly simple but a few key points. 1. Old school gamer's were geeks and most weren't looking to *win* but to have an adventure on and for them winning wasn't even a concept but simply progressing on an adventure. These are the kinds of people who would play D&D pen and paper with buddies.
New gamer's are about winning and beating everything. Give them sweet phat lewts so they can brag except everyone else has the same thing. Its not an adventure to them but a hated boring grind until they get their top status which isn't really top as its shared with 99% of the rest of the playerbase.
2. Hardcore gamers before vs casual gamer's today. This isn't a time concept but a mentality more so. The hardcore gamer of before strove to accomplish hard tasks and try new and interesting things. They pushed the limits and were willing to wait patiently to reach the current goal they set. Casual gamer's of today have no patience and the only goal they set is *winning* and getting to the top as fast as possible. They don't want to wait for anything be it levels, gear, achievements, or anything. Casuals of today if they can't get a level a day the game sucks hard while in the old days hardcore players were fine with it taking days or even weeks to achieve the next level or achieve one goal.
This change of what was the majority of players and catering to casuals who just demand instant gratification and don't enjoy the journey is what ruibed mmorpg's and the communities with them.
Ask yourself of your fond memories in mmorpg's. Do you have any big fond memories while leveling especially with friends? Did you ever try the nonsensical and impossible just because it would be fun? In EQ1 most of my best memories were under level 20. In DAoC most of my best memories were under 40. WoW classic, most of my best memories again under 40. Every one of those games I reached endgame content and top or near top endgame content but the journey up was the fun.
Back in the day, I used to walk to school, up hill, in the snow, both ways, while carrying 40 books.
Today people drive themselves to school and use the internet as textbooks.
Notice how similar those two realities are? They aren't.
What YOU did in a video game 10 years ago or so is not the same thing that someone else is doing in a video game today. Stop comparing the past to now.
Hell most of us were awestruck by pong for god's sake. Today's kids laugh at that. In another 20 years, these same kids that think we are all from the stone age will be laughed at by the next generation of gamers. It's called life.
Instead of trying to figure out what went wrong, embrace the future like you embraced pong. It's something new and new things are different for a reason. You keep trying to hold on to the past and all you will have is pong.
Community didn't change, people's need for community changed. Just as video games changed.
Fairly simple but a few key points. 1. Old school gamer's were geeks and most weren't looking to *win* but to have an adventure on and for them winning wasn't even a concept but simply progressing on an adventure. These are the kinds of people who would play D&D pen and paper with buddies.
New gamer's are about winning and beating everything. Give them sweet phat lewts so they can brag except everyone else has the same thing. Its not an adventure to them but a hated boring grind until they get their top status which isn't really top as its shared with 99% of the rest of the playerbase.
2. Hardcore gamers before vs casual gamer's today. This isn't a time concept but a mentality more so. The hardcore gamer of before strove to accomplish hard tasks and try new and interesting things. They pushed the limits and were willing to wait patiently to reach the current goal they set. Casual gamer's of today have no patience and the only goal they set is *winning* and getting to the top as fast as possible. They don't want to wait for anything be it levels, gear, achievements, or anything. Casuals of today if they can't get a level a day the game sucks hard while in the old days hardcore players were fine with it taking days or even weeks to achieve the next level or achieve one goal.
This change of what was the majority of players and catering to casuals who just demand instant gratification and don't enjoy the journey is what ruibed mmorpg's and the communities with them.
Ask yourself of your fond memories in mmorpg's. Do you have any big fond memories while leveling especially with friends? Did you ever try the nonsensical and impossible just because it would be fun? In EQ1 most of my best memories were under level 20. In DAoC most of my best memories were under 40. WoW classic, most of my best memories again under 40. Every one of those games I reached endgame content and top or near top endgame content but the journey up was the fun.
Goonsquad, does not approve of these comments.
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
Back in the day, I used to walk to school, up hill, in the snow, both ways, while carrying 40 books.
Today people drive themselves to school and use the internet as textbooks.
Notice how similar those two realities are? They aren't.
What YOU did in a video game 10 years ago or so is not the same thing that someone else is doing in a video game today. Stop comparing the past to now.
Hell most of us were awestruck by pong for god's sake. Today's kids laugh at that. In another 20 years, these same kids that think we are all from the stone age will be laughed at by the next generation of gamers. It's called life.
Instead of trying to figure out what went wrong, embrace the future like you embraced pong. It's something new and new things are different for a reason. You keep trying to hold on to the past and all you will have is pong.
Community didn't change, people's need for community changed. Just as video games changed.
Rocket science my friend... rocket science.
What? Isn't this exactly what the whole is about? Then vs Now? How things have changed?
Nostalgia, my ass. I enjoyed back then and would like i to make a come back.
You seem to think that ALL change is good and "innovative progression." Good for you as you'll never be disappointed and agree with everything that happens in the future. "Embrace the CHANGE!"
You know back when kids walked to school, gyms were non-existent. People actually worked their muscles doing daily routines. Now, some feel the need to pay to work out. Others just get fatter. We actually have to encourage kids to go outside and PLAY, for goodness sake. In the US, ad campaigns abound trying to get kids to PLAY. Progress.... yay...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It sounds crude. But they are a demographic that has different priorities than Gen X or Boomers.
I think we're seeing, more starkly, how this is changing gaming communities when you look at games like Overwatch, for example (not an MMORPG, but still very relevant to the discussion).
This is just my opinion but players are too divided.
I know at least in UO and EQ players tended to be around for different reasons.
In EQ leveling was slow so you could expect to bump into the same players for a while. It allowed you to group and form friendships. Also slow combat also allowed you to assist players. You also saw higher level players in newbie zones leveling. Buffs and items could be given to lower level players
In UO players formed communities around player housing and npc cities. You may port off to adventure but players tended to hang in whatever city they liked because there was no "high level" city. Each city functioned as hub closer to real life.
I think games moving forward would benefit from getting players to just adventure and hang around the same players. Seems simple but these days you blow through content and zones daily. The only meet up spots are big cities which usually are about as interactive as big city in real life. Don't be afraid to allow players to interact with buffs and ports amd the like.
Gameplay dictates where players are located, if there is profit or fun to be had, those areas will almost always be populated.Cities are safe zones in most part which allow players to queue for dungeons and carebear.
I for one am for fully utilising entire maps of mmorpgs since most of the worlds are beautifull and much care was put into making them to be empty, so content should be spread around the maps related to trading, questing, grinding and bosses and events instead of allowing players to lose interest of traveling.
And related to the very gaming community, mmorpg's will always have much more mature players and those who are having fun just like you, people you can enjoy your time with and band together, compared to moba and fps online games where there is a lot younger audience and you might encounter toxicity.
In over 10 years of mmorpg's i have only ever encountered about a dozen truly toxic people, you could compare that with real life.
MMORPG's should never die, and they will not, as people really enjoy this type of genre, there will always be market for developers to build upon.
Comments
I can name you countless PvP MMOs with the worst communities you'll ever see
I'd have a hard time finding a bad community as just a good an example in a PVE based game.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
I really miss times when you needed people, you had a rep. Most MMOs, you can be a complete and utter wanker to people and who really cares. Nothing bad it really going to happen from it.
FF14 wasn't too bad there. Basically forcing you into instances. Having insane waiting times, if you weren't a tank/healer.
Without games basically pushing people together by whatever means, making leveling hard, getting killed by opposite faction, needing others to all craft together. Where now, it seems most are just focused on more solo play. Trying to make things overall easier. Unless you are the top 1-5% that do hardcore pvp/pve. Which is another problem, it's all about the end game.
I remember waiting in zones to group up and actually having some of the funniest conversation with people. Come back to that zone a day or two later and find some of the same people and have great conversations and hunting again. Leveling is so quick now that you really don't have time to get to know anyone before they are leveled way beyond you. I am a casual player and that could have something to do with it but EQ was some of my most entertaining times with a community in an MMO.
See a lot of games are designed to be time sinks to players, but then developers do not respect the time that players put into their games. They will do things, like pump out expansions that raise level caps, put out whole new gear treadmills, and this invalidate all the work and effort that players put into the game already, so much so, that is begins to work against you to have been with the game for a long time, as the new stuff is better then the old stuff.
Then their are revisions to the game, which all too often take the form of nerfs, where gear, abilities, classes, combos, gear, and a slew of other things that players put a lot of time into getting become vastly weaker then they used to be, making all that effort and time a total waste.
And this is a huge Trend for MMO's to do this to players and it affects them socially, in a massive way, the more the players efforts become invalidated the more it is never going to be worth it the player to deal with annoying other people. IE: That "raid leader" that is acting like a jerk is suddenly not worth it to put up with because when a new expansion comes out, or update happens, this gear that is currently the "must have" will be vendor trash, and putting up with the headache of dealing with annoying people is just not there anymore.
That Ganker that is killing people in a starting city, it's not worth the time and effort to deal with, they can have this game, if that is what they need to play, suddenly a game that even has that kind of environment is not worth the head ache, because as a long time player of MMO's, you just know that the company won't respect your efforts, so, it becomes easier to just move on, leave those people that game, and find a new game where perhaps players are forced to be nice, or at the very least, you're able to just ignore them fully to enjoy the game.
Hence the rise in Solo Aspects of MMO's. This was not because Players want to solo, it is because game companies have for years, decades even, disrespected the time and effort players put into their game, so much so, that it is not worth the frustration of dealing with people that a player does not like, just to play a game anymore, because the rewards, whatever they may be, will never be worth it, every time a nerf happens to your raid gear, it makes dealing with that annoying raid leader less worth it.
As such, players are not in the mood to deal with other people that are less than pleasant. And it shows. That is why communities are not building. It's not about slow leveling, the reason why players won't put up with that slow leveling, is because they know that the company won't respect their grind time to earn those levels, and will just nerf some ability like it's nothing to them, and the player that just put in 20 hours getting that last level to get that ability now feels slighted. Like, you think they are going to take up long ass grinds when they know that the MMO company won't respect their efforts... screw that.
So a large part of the problem is that MMO companies just didn't respect their players time, so now players are not feeling the urge to put in that kind of time or work into their games, and the community suffers for that.
You reap what you sow.
It's not just a few. It is millions.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you want to explain how you thought they relate, fine, if not, again fine.
What most people don't realize is the bad comes with the good. I don't mind having rivals or enemies to go along with friends.
I used to be lawful-evil. Now people mistake me for a Republican.
We are in a day and age where MMO's are even bringing Battle Royale in to the fold (Skyforge)
I am looking forward to player older styled games with a newer skin.... I just want a virtual world again. Playing WoW right now and taking my time and enjoying the game like I had never played before. Trying to talk to people though? Yeah people almost never respond.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
You went on to elaborate quite a lot, I made my reply simple. What's not to understand?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Well to posting anyway.
But.. the simple answer is, you didn't read my post.. got it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
But, just for academia, by your logic, what everyone really wants is a McDonald's burger served stuffed in a bag with open box of fries dumped on it because people obviously buy it and buy it a lot, and that no one wants to sit down to a prime rib steak with a tall pilsner of ale because Steak and Ale Closed.
Yah.. well we shall disagree.
1. Old school gamer's were geeks and most weren't looking to *win* but to have an adventure on and for them winning wasn't even a concept but simply progressing on an adventure. These are the kinds of people who would play D&D pen and paper with buddies.
New gamer's are about winning and beating everything. Give them sweet phat lewts so they can brag except everyone else has the same thing. Its not an adventure to them but a hated boring grind until they get their top status which isn't really top as its shared with 99% of the rest of the playerbase.
2. Hardcore gamers before vs casual gamer's today. This isn't a time concept but a mentality more so. The hardcore gamer of before strove to accomplish hard tasks and try new and interesting things. They pushed the limits and were willing to wait patiently to reach the current goal they set. Casual gamer's of today have no patience and the only goal they set is *winning* and getting to the top as fast as possible. They don't want to wait for anything be it levels, gear, achievements, or anything. Casuals of today if they can't get a level a day the game sucks hard while in the old days hardcore players were fine with it taking days or even weeks to achieve the next level or achieve one goal.
This change of what was the majority of players and catering to casuals who just demand instant gratification and don't enjoy the journey is what ruibed mmorpg's and the communities with them.
Ask yourself of your fond memories in mmorpg's. Do you have any big fond memories while leveling especially with friends? Did you ever try the nonsensical and impossible just because it would be fun? In EQ1 most of my best memories were under level 20. In DAoC most of my best memories were under 40. WoW classic, most of my best memories again under 40. Every one of those games I reached endgame content and top or near top endgame content but the journey up was the fun.
Back in the day, I used to walk to school, up hill, in the snow, both ways, while carrying 40 books.
Today people drive themselves to school and use the internet as textbooks.
Notice how similar those two realities are? They aren't.
What YOU did in a video game 10 years ago or so is not the same thing that someone else is doing in a video game today. Stop comparing the past to now.
Hell most of us were awestruck by pong for god's sake. Today's kids laugh at that. In another 20 years, these same kids that think we are all from the stone age will be laughed at by the next generation of gamers. It's called life.
Instead of trying to figure out what went wrong, embrace the future like you embraced pong. It's something new and new things are different for a reason. You keep trying to hold on to the past and all you will have is pong.
Community didn't change, people's need for community changed. Just as video games changed.
Rocket science my friend... rocket science.
MAGA
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It sounds crude. But they are a demographic that has different priorities than Gen X or Boomers.
I think we're seeing, more starkly, how this is changing gaming communities when you look at games like Overwatch, for example (not an MMORPG, but still very relevant to the discussion).
I for one am for fully utilising entire maps of mmorpgs since most of the worlds are beautifull and much care was put into making them to be empty, so content should be spread around the maps related to trading, questing, grinding and bosses and events instead of allowing players to lose interest of traveling.
And related to the very gaming community, mmorpg's will always have much more mature players and those who are having fun just like you, people you can enjoy your time with and band together, compared to moba and fps online games where there is a lot younger audience and you might encounter toxicity.
In over 10 years of mmorpg's i have only ever encountered about a dozen truly toxic people, you could compare that with real life.
MMORPG's should never die, and they will not, as people really enjoy this type of genre, there will always be market for developers to build upon.