a MUST read

Munki · December 2003

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6085963/p-10.html
this is a deffinate must read for everyone who ever played/plans on playing a mmorpg

This really brings home the point of what mmorpgs need to be doing.

I tell you, most people who read this will take a different look at mmorpgs.

Clever_Glove · December 2003

I'm starting to think it's becoming a fad to knock on MMORPG's. You must remember that they are only coming up on a 3rd Generation, while all other game genres are into a 4th.

MMORPG's are for everyone. Frankly I think E's and K's are better severed somewhere else. E's require to much content, Dev's can't make it quick enough so "time sinks" are added. Since MMORPG's are catered to A's (generally apathetic towards PvP) and S's (witch hate PvP) K's are left in the cold. Granted a few have tried to appease this market, but at least in North America have done very poorly at capturing them. If you a K, why go back to engines and gameplay of yesteryear? Why not stick a current FPS?

So if any author of a publication is a E or K type, yep, they aren't happy with MMORPG's.

Consequences

Premant death... Image killing your little snakes and bugs... You get a upgrade to your newbe sword maybe some tattered armor. So proud of your new gear you head out into the game. Hey I wonder whats in that cave? This place is pretty neat.... THUMP.

You been killed, you are dead.

Game Over

Have a nice day.

People have tried this, it just doesn't work well in with the time commitments of a MMORPG. Image a game with prema-death and PK's. I like PvP, but I have better things to do than to be thumped over the head everytime I step out of n00bville wondering why there's only a handful of high level characters.

To implement this system at a level of acceptance, combat with Mobs would have to be trivial. Exp would be quick and furious. If it wasn't people would stop playing once a mid-level character died.

Would be the MT on a dragon raid with perma-death?

Sure this is fun for short time, but it's seems to be proving the quicker players get to max level, then shorter a time they spend in your MMORPG. Time sinks suck, but nothing else has proven to be effective.

Skills

The Author is behind the times, many newer MMORPG's have implemented similar systems.

Combat

His 1st paragraph is something that is changing some, it'll get there after awhile. But S's are twitch types, and S's are where the money is in a MMORPG. I wouldn't expect this aspect to change much. He whined but offered little of a improvement. I'd personally like to see more situational skills, that require you think fast to get maximum performance. But I doubt I'll ever see such a system.

I'd also like to see better team management skills, like a raid leader would have a map, with dots representing each player and what they are currently doing. He could drop commands on your screen. EX: attack here, kill this, move here...ect. Allow raid leaders to be strategic leaders.

In the 2nd paragraphs if suggests that by adding the ability for people to take up large block of system memory writing poems would somehow make the game a better place. I could care less about that, I won't pay to play a game to do something I can do in RL. I don't write poems for a reason. I like killing dragons for a reason. I would never give up killing the dragons to buy player made poetry. I guess extra widgets could make a game more interesting for some. But hardly something I could see making a new more glorious MMORPG, if you want non-combat the SIMS is calling.

I guess you need something else to do like writing your memories if you get perma-killed each time you step out of town.

Something he left out is Mob AI, it's getting better in newer MMORPG's, it still has a long way to go. Mobs need to play you the way you play them. Not comment to combat with odds it can't win, mezz, stun, root people off, work in groups or sprint away when it you find one alone and come back with freinds.... they should act the same way players do.

Perhaps a PvP where you earn exp by killing others.

Creatable and Destroyable Content

Buildings are fun, they add that extra something for some. To mean they are generally just something I end up farming cash to keep from losing... doing something I'd rather not for something it makes little difference if I have.

Hz is taking a whack at this idea... It doesn't appeal to me much. I'm more interesting in games with good player economy. One where items are removed so that items can drop frequently.

In short, this guy spilled allot of sour grapes. He wants a perma-death game. It's a idea... just not one I can see ever being profitable.

MMORPG's are not for everyone. Clearly this author is more at home with single player games, or FPS's.

Clever_Glove · December 2003

From http://www.shadowpool.com/features.php

Permanent Death:
When you confront danger in TerVarus, you literally are taking your life in your hands. While player characters are hardy, death leaves a permanent mark upon their soul, weakening their link to the world of the living. Should misfortune befall too often, that link will be lost, and the character's soul will depart... forever. With this daunting thought comes the trade off that only permanent death can offer in the form of a barrier against high level character stagnation and economical bloat.

The game the author is advocating doesn't have permanent death. It has a 3 strikes and your out or something... they are very unclear here but you only perma-die if you die to often in to short of a period.

Hence, no one would ever put a real perma death into a MMORPG and expect to make money.

-=-=-=-=-
"elimination of any downtime and you don't have a chance to really talk. The result is no one gives a crap who you are. It's so incredibly anti-community building." - Brad McQuid (sigil games, maker of EQ)

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here learn what it means here.

Rleab · December 2003

For death in my "dream" MMORPG it would be so that every 15 minutes the game saves and if you die you go back to you last save. I loved it in Morrowind. It made it so that you feared death (ex: you just looted some 30 dmg wep with 19 delay and very good stats and all of a sudden THUMP you die...LOADING...now your back at your last "save" w/o that wep)And yet at the same time it allows players to get to higher lvls without being overly cautious. I MIGHT add some extra penalties but it makes so that its not boring like EQ where Die...spawn at bind...run to corpse...get a 95% exp back rez...we are all happy now.EDIT: morrowind you manualy saved sorry if that confused anyone in the MMO id like to see it would auto save .

Now ( i know this is off-topic sorry ) Morrowind is a very good game and i advise any who love offline RPG's to get it

---------
Who said games rotted the mind?

Zohar · December 2003

Personally I feel that the author's views in that article are highly opinionated. I think many of the MMORPGs out there have made tremendous strides since the pioneering MMORPGs. Perhaps to the author the type of gameplay his is describing isn't good enough for him.

Think about racing games for example; personally I hate them. Why? They all are pretty much the same. They all involve racing around a track, course, sector in space, etc. all focused on beating your opponents who are also racing. Some racing games I did enjoy, but they were far in between and certiantly out of the norm for the racing genre. It's my personal opinion that I despise racing games generally, but it doesn't mean they are bad or inadequete.

It helps to remember that MMORPGs clearly have their own genre. If you look at each MMORPG you will notice several similarities. All of them require quite some time to play and develop your character. All of them require you to level up one way or another, through fairly repetive actions. All of them involve social interaction, which is one of the primary reasons (in my book) that people choose to play them. The rewards increase based upon a mixture of personal accomplishment in the MMORPG's world through your avatar and the amount of time invested in the game, this is probably another huge incentive. As with all gaming genres, there will be people who like and hate them.

In every genre there is always going to be an oddball (not a bad thing) that is slightly out of the normal, or even crosses into another genre. These will usually tend to draw a larger crowd because of their unique flair and different approach. Usually a game like this cannot be duplicated, it's almost like a fluke that will attribute it's future to a hit-or-miss start.

Sorry for the long post, I just felt like I needed to share my views about the article presented, it just sounds to me like the author of it is rejecting the new MMORPG genre. I don't think MMORPGs are for everyone, it's true, but if you look at the massive game list on this site (with many new and exciting looking titles) you can clearly see that games of this type were not a mistake or a passing fad. Many new elements are being introduced (even perma death in some) which will either pass and become a standard (or one of several standards) or fail and fade away likely never to be tested again.

-=MMORPG.COM Staff=-
E-mail: Zohar@mmorpg.com

Munki · December 2003

I had a great long response, but It some how didnt post and i lost it.... *sob*

But basically it was saying

1)that ToA has permadeath, you have 100 life counters, once there gone there gone, your char is dead

2)permadeath adds a whole tun of elements, in PvP is adds hte suspence that if you die trying to kill that guy your actually lose somthing importaint that you cannot get back, so you gota be smart when you PK

3)I know the guy who wrote that, and he loves mmorpgs, and after the article was published, he has gotten tonnes and tonnes of email of people who agree with him, and according to the poll, only 18% are totally opposed to perma-death.

4)I personally agree totally with the article, but thats my opinion.

5)What is this E's and K's and such, you lost me there

6)and we will see if PD will work sucessfully when ToA comes out.

ianubisi · December 2003

Permanent death encounters a lot of serious logicistal problems, most notably lag and exploits.

When you die because their servers hiccup, or someone found a way to kill you with a freaky combination of chat spam and removing their cloth tunic (or whatever), or your own internet connection blinks for 5 seconds...you'll freak out. And it truly isn't a fair system to force you to eat that, IMO...and therein lies the real problem with permanent consequences in a medium that is fraught with such problems.

Perhaps if someone can find a way to make it compelling, and it isn't overwhelmingly easy to lose all your gained ground, then it might be worth it. There is a deep thrill of excitement in such a system...I've done enough Hardcore Diablo to know what that means. But I'll be damned if I'm going to allow 200+ hours of character advancement be swept away by some jackass and his haxx0r proggie, or by some denial-of-service attack on the server. Blah.

As for the other elements of the commentary...I would love for MMOGs to find a different way of character advancement than the level treadmill. That is something that I really feel makes MMOGs a needless tedium. Unfortunately, like the author of the article, I don't really have any good suggestions on how to make it better. Heck, if I did I would be looking for funding to make it

Zohar · December 2003

I know this is off topic, but I'd thought I'd quickly state it: I always copy and paste my posts because there's nothing worse then an intellectual response getting lost for some wierd reason. I'll bring this up to Mr. Admin and see if he can do anything .

This is a great topic with some good response, but one thing eludes me, what are all the E's, K's, and S's? Do you mean explorer, killer, achievers, and socializers or am I missing your point .

-=MMORPG.COM Staff=-
E-mail: Zohar@mmorpg.com

Clever_Glove · December 2003

Originally posted by Munki

I had a great long response, but It some how didnt post and i lost it.... *sob*
But basically it was saying
1)that ToA has permadeath, you have 100 life counters, once there gone there gone, your char is dead
2)permadeath adds a whole tun of elements, in PvP is adds hte suspence that if you die trying to kill that guy your actually lose somthing importaint that you cannot get back, so you gota be smart when you PK
3)I know the guy who wrote that, and he loves mmorpgs, and after the article was published, he has gotten tonnes and tonnes of email of people who agree with him, and according to the poll, only 18% are totally opposed to perma-death.
4)I personally agree totally with the article, but thats my opinion.
5)What is this E's and K's and such, you lost me there
6)and we will see if PD will work sucessfully when ToA comes out.

5. Follow the links in my sig. You can read up on game types.

6. 100 deaths is all you get is hardly Perma Death. I'm sure a great deal of things will be scaled back so that accidental deaths do not happen. Exp will be fast, I'm sure people will switch mains once to 90 deaths or so. Or just go on mad PK runs, then switch mains.

This really isn't a big deal, it's a minor feature. I wouldn't be surprised if some players even forget there lives are numbered. In most MMORPG I'll die less than 100 times getting to max level. Often less than 10.

3. Never believe polls. We have a tenancy to believe what enforces how we think and ignore the polls that don't. Besides picking "it'd have to be a hell of a game to make me like it" isn't exactly supporting it. That poll is worded in such a way that you sound dumb for not picking one of the "I'll support this options"

-=-=-=-=-
"elimination of any downtime and you don't have a chance to really talk. The result is no one gives a crap who you are. It's so incredibly anti-community building." - Brad McQuid (sigil games, maker of EQ)

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here learn what it means here.

Munki · December 2003

"6. 100 deaths is all you get is hardly Perma Death. I'm sure a great deal of things will be scaled back so that accidental deaths do not happen. Exp will be fast, I'm sure people will switch mains once to 90 deaths or so. Or just go on mad PK runs, then switch mains."

Using hte game is a bad example when You arent quite sure about hte game (I dont blame you, your not hte one following it, I am, so ill just bring up to speed a bit, that should help you see what im saying)

In ToA, you have 100 lives, when you die oyu lose one, they are toying around with the idea of 10 or so Golden counters, that you can use if you lag out, so you dont have to go get your items.

There is no exp in the game, its skill based, and they have stated its not going ot be fast, by any means.
At the moment there are going ot be 4 servers, you are allowed one char on each server, and they plan on making it hard to survive.

The difference between this game and most games is they actually want you to have a challange, keep you on your toes, and think before going on a kamakzie run.

Also, int he game there are a lot of ways you can die, you can fall down a cliff and die, you can try to climb a mountain, but your skill is too low, you slip and die.

the wild will actually be dangerous, and there are many hazard.

I think more than half the reason I agree with PD now is i have read about this game, before i foud ToA I though PD was stupid, but after following it for almost a year now, I love the idea, and you will find that a common trait among people who follow the game, almost all of them joint he forums and say PD with never worf, its bad, but by the time that post is over pretty much all of them agree PD is a cool idea.
The others it takes a week or two to sink in.

I dont think we will have a shortage of people pera-dieing in that game, especially if they chose to be a hard race like Gryphons or Dragons.

we'll just have to wait and see how it does.

neschria · December 2003

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

MMORPG's are for everyone. Frankly I think E's and K's are better severed somewhere else. E's require to much content, Dev's can't make it quick enough so "time sinks" are added. Since MMORPG's are catered to A's (generally apathetic towards PvP) and S's (witch hate PvP) K's are left in the cold. Granted a few have tried to appease this market, but at least in North America have done very poorly at capturing them. If you a K, why go back to engines and gameplay of yesteryear? Why not stick a current FPS?

I will start off by admitting that I am an EAS player, and I played EQ for a looooong time.

I have to respectfully disagree that E's aren't a good fit for MMORPGs, but I guess it depends on what kind of exploring a person does. I like slow exploration myself, since I like to see everything. I take a lot of screenshots, like I am some kind of tourist on vacation snapping pictures of landmarks. Sometimes I was rewarded for my efforts with a good new hunting spot, or some unusual item that comes from someplace that other people just don't go very much. I agree that some people rip through new content really fast and want more, but I suspect that many of them are some sort of Achiever-Explorer subtype that wants to say that they have seen it all, first and fastest, and screw the details. How much of an explorer are you, really, if you don't take the time to notice all the funny little things that were put into the game world?

Of course... it is probably my "A" side that actually kept me playing for so long. There was always one more boss mob, one more shiny sword, one more AA ability, one more flag or key. It's amazing what kind of hoops you will jump through to finally accomplish "one more thing" if you are driven to achieve and compete.

I do think that a lot of people *want* to like an MMORPG, but they just can get past the fact that MMORPGs aren't really a type of game that they are going to ever really enjoy, and they would be better off elsewhere.

Clever_Glove · December 2003

Originally posted by Munki

"6. 100 deaths is all you get is hardly Perma Death. I'm sure a great deal of things will be scaled back so that accidental deaths do not happen. Exp will be fast, I'm sure people will switch mains once to 90 deaths or so. Or just go on mad PK runs, then switch mains."
Using hte game is a bad example when You arent quite sure about hte game (I dont blame you, your not hte one following it, I am, so ill just bring up to speed a bit, that should help you see what im saying)
In ToA, you have 100 lives, when you die oyu lose one, they are toying around with the idea of 10 or so Golden counters, that you can use if you lag out, so you dont have to go get your items.
There is no exp in the game, its skill based, and they have stated its not going ot be fast, by any means.
At the moment there are going ot be 4 servers, you are allowed one char on each server, and they plan on making it hard to survive.
The difference between this game and most games is they actually want you to have a challange, keep you on your toes, and think before going on a kamakzie run.

Also, int he game there are a lot of ways you can die, you can fall down a cliff and die, you can try to climb a mountain, but your skill is too low, you slip and die.
the wild will actually be dangerous, and there are many hazard.
I think more than half the reason I agree with PD now is i have read about this game, before i foud ToA I though PD was stupid, but after following it for almost a year now, I love the idea, and you will find that a common trait among people who follow the game, almost all of them joint he forums and say PD with never worf, its bad, but by the time that post is over pretty much all of them agree PD is a cool idea.
The others it takes a week or two to sink in.
I dont think we will have a shortage of people pera-dieing in that game, especially if they chose to be a hard race like Gryphons or Dragons.
we'll just have to wait and see how it does.

If your in a store a bunch of guys break out swords are start slashing people what do you do? Run the way, why Death is permonate. While I respect the effort to try remove the whinny factor from the high end game, but all this is going to do is create a system of people playing over conservative.

Why risk doing anything grand?

Your making me quote me quote Brad, I'm bit pissed about it, but he I agree with him on this stance. "Death is part of the game -- it means the player is taking risks, entering new areas, exploring, etc. We don't want to over-penalize that and discourage. But, then, if there is no penalty, it's not a risk."

http://www.sigilgames.com/000083.php#question10

Sadly Brad is correct here, if you make a game with harsh penalties you limit the actions will people will do, they won't take risks, they won't poke their heads into holes. They won't certainly climb a cliff if they can fail off and die. (much like in life, but you'll the lack the a car of plane to travel around it)

Anyone up for tanking a dragon if it means you lose your character? Want to goto war with another guild? I bet many wouldn't even want to venture into the woods, a sudden storm can be fatal. This is fun. Sounds more like life-u-mentry to learn what people with anxiety attacks live with.

I also assume it's something like PE, where the more you use a skill the better you get at it, and getting so good at some things means lower a cap in another? Their FAQ is bit unclear on this.

Games allow us to be things we aren't in life, so in a game when people bust out swords and start slashing, I can pull out my Axe and charge in, sure I might die, but I can respawn and get them the next time. If you take away that element, you lose a great deal of what makes playing games fun.

If the game isn't fun, then why play it? Losing months of work because decided to cut down on some travel time and the game rolled unlucky for you doesn't seem appealing to me.

This also has a bad side effect of penalizing newbie's. Until you know all the ways to die, your going to die allot. So about the time you get clear of that and head into the space you know what your doing... your life counter is up. MMORPG's are about attachment to your character. You'll need to scrape a few them just to get game machinces figured out.

To much reality in a game is a bad thing

This is a idea, but it's not a very profitable one. I'm sure a small group of you will play and claim themselves kings of the world because they play a non-sissified game. I'll be happy killing dragons elsewhere. I wish them the best of luck though.

-=-=-=-=-
"elimination of any downtime and you don't have a chance to really talk. The result is no one gives a crap who you are. It's so incredibly anti-community building." - Brad McQuid (sigil games, maker of EQ)

A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50%

Games and players have a type. What type are you? click here learn what it means here.

Munki · December 2003

(this is a great discussion I belive by the way)

As far as I understand, you dont like the idea for the same reason I love the idea.

Nobody wants to climb a cliff cause there scared they will die, so very few people attempt it, and they die and they lose a precious life counter, but sombody actually makes it to the top, amazing!

This guy, for doing osmthing as simple as climbing a mountian gets the huge reward of actaully doing it, takking a huge risk and survivng.

With more risk, the reward is larger

Im in a store and two guys pull out swords and start brawling, I pull out my ace and die... damn lost a life, that blows maybe ill be more careful next time... or

Im a expert with my axe and I go and quickly dispatch the two, I feal great because two maniacs just suffered for there actions and everyone is thanking me because I was brave enough to tr to stop it, and suceeded.

Anybody can kill a dragon soon enough when there is no real risk, but killing a dragon when you could have lost a little bit of your characture that you could never get back seem s alot more satisfying.

I think this will really appeal to the A types , as the achievments in this game seem greater than if oyu did the same thing in a game without PD

genstyle · December 2003

This would amount to about how fast you lvl, gain skills, whatever. If it's slow grinding that you work hard on well i'm not sure im up for that.

#zfz on gamesnet

Munki · December 2003

there are a lot of people who will not be up to that im sure, but I think PD is more geared towards the people who love mmorpgs and want more of a challange, and likewise, more of a reward.

Finwe · December 2003

All the reasons glove mentioned were all the reason why there needs to be a form of PD, or harsher penalties. Game nowadays have become stupid repetitive crap, you dont care if you die. I remember on SWG, the unofficial PvP server bloodfin, on tatooine, cant remember the town, but there was a big fight between rebels and imperials. We kept on killing each other over and over again. Why? Because we got small penalties, our stats would go down until a medic healed them, so why we were covert, and our stats were too busted, we'd go to a med center, expert medic heals us up almost instantly, back to fighting the redundant fight to no avail.

Now, add in this 100 life crap, you have real fights, one guild on one side, other on the other side, they charge in, they fight, some of them die, and lose a counter, they're probably in a far away city and it'd take a long time to travel back, so they stay, eventually the attacks are all "killed" and the defending army wins. Or say they're near the lair of the infamous Dragon Barok or some crap, hes powerful, hes an ancient dragon with a huge hoard, do they dare go into his lair? Maybe hes in there, maybe he'll be back soon. They go in, right when they're collecting treasure, the great dragon flies down, goes into his lair, and they being not the most powerful of sorts, are roasted, toasted, and munched on. They lose a life, and all gear that was not attached.

fulmanfu · January 2004

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

If your in a store a bunch of guys break out swords are start slashing people what do you do? Run the way, why Death is permonate. While I respect the effort to try remove the whinny factor from the high end game, but all this is going to do is create a system of people playing over conservative.

keep in mind if that happens in a store, the bunch of guys doing the slashing will be sent to jail for life/put to death.

i think permadeath would be great if implemented right, that means getting pk right, which isnt so easy. if its not, u would see a bunch of strong players killing everyone lower just so noone could ever challenge them. i would share my thoughts on how it could be done right , if i had any.

Munki · January 2004

exactly, then they become outlaws, and people hunt them for money and there is a bounty.

and killing them them does damge, he may lose his char, not just his equip or a small exp loss

Munki · January 2004

gunblade, you may have noticed but FPS games work, they appeal to the masses, they have a market.

MMORPGS havent broken into the mass market yet, and they are trying to, but there hasnt been a "breakthough" since EQ, UO and AC,

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