The rewards go hand to hand with the content. Most of the mmorpg(themepark) end game is raid and grind. So make sense the rewards(gear) drop from there.
I'm waiting for the release of Legend of Aria. In that game, I don't expect the gear to be gated behind raid or grind because that is not the endgame of the game.
Gone are the days that raids used to signify player skill. Now you can just wait a couple of months in most of these mmorpgs for your 'progression' to become meaningless because the start of the new raid tier needs 'catch-up' mechanics for everyone. And overall its easier for development since you dont have to worry about how well previous content works with future content, since everything is usually pointless when the new patch comes out. I mean just look at wow atm. I have a 391 alliance human monk that hasnt dont normal+ uldir or any m+ past 2. People are just getting geared for content they have no experience doing and 'hardcore' players cant even tell who has experience anymore without raiderio since gear is a pointless determining factor. Easier gearing just hurts everyone all around.
I would prefer for raids to not be scripted and repeatable. I would love to see magical gear created in multiple ways.
Maybe helping killing a powerful beast would have a chance to enchant a piece of gear or killing a lot of the same enemy could make your gear a bane towards the enemy.
Crafters make legendary gear randomly.
Random world events drop good gear. Random quest could drop good gear.
I would like to see focus off creating games based on end game raiding as the only way to get to gear.
I like these ideas. Just some thoughts to add...
If we're going to get away from raids, then to replace that sort of polished content but without the scripted predictability we're going to need AI. And it's about time!
Yes, magical items should be created in various ways. But maybe not just items, why can't stats be permanently (or temporally) enhanced? In D+D (pen and paper) you used to kill a Dragon and bath in it's blood for extra HP's or Armor rating (I forget now which) to simulate a tougher skin as protection. In effect, why not have effects for weapons, armor, stats, and things like tough skin (armor rating), Fast Feet (running speed), chameleon effects (stealth or hide), etc., from blood or other time sensitive after-the-kill effects?
Another example might be that if you kill a powerful Vampire, and then kill it's undead "soul" (with a wooden weapon) before it flies away, you might gain any of various Vampire like powers. Turn into a bat and fly, power of invisibility, "charm" as a stun like effect. (I'd definitely make such a thing very difficult to perform.)
I also like the idea of powerful enchantments being performed at restricted times, such as under a full moon at midnight, or star alignments, and using very rare ingredients. And such enchantments might a a secret until a player figures out the means (a game in itself). Add in that the world can only have a set number of such each specific enchantment because it relies on a power link to a deity. This would limit powerful enchantments to the "rare" category.
Gears focus is worst design IMO . Itself create too much trash contents that will be drop out and never used again . Why need to raid low level boss while end game boss drop top gears ?
I rather have boss / raid boss that drop buff potions that raise player's stats or give player other ability in fixed among of time .
For example dragon blood that raise max health and DPS while vampire dust give ability to blood drain .
Then you can use the potions you get from bosses to craft items . Item create will carry some ability of the potion you use . Like dragon blood armor add health bonus or vampire dust weapon give health absorb .
I would prefer for raids to not be scripted and repeatable. I would love to see magical gear created in multiple ways.
Maybe helping killing a powerful beast would have a chance to enchant a piece of gear or killing a lot of the same enemy could make your gear a bane towards the enemy.
Crafters make legendary gear randomly.
Random world events drop good gear. Random quest could drop good gear.
I would like to see focus off creating games based on end game raiding as the only way to get to gear.
I like these ideas. Just some thoughts to add...
If we're going to get away from raids, then to replace that sort of polished content but without the scripted predictability we're going to need AI. And it's about time!
Yes, magical items should be created in various ways. But maybe not just items, why can't stats be permanently (or temporally) enhanced? In D+D (pen and paper) you used to kill a Dragon and bath in it's blood for extra HP's or Armor rating (I forget now which) to simulate a tougher skin as protection. In effect, why not have effects for weapons, armor, stats, and things like tough skin (armor rating), Fast Feet (running speed), chameleon effects (stealth or hide), etc., from blood or other time sensitive after-the-kill effects?
Another example might be that if you kill a powerful Vampire, and then kill it's undead "soul" (with a wooden weapon) before it flies away, you might gain any of various Vampire like powers. Turn into a bat and fly, power of invisibility, "charm" as a stun like effect. (I'd definitely make such a thing very difficult to perform.)
I also like the idea of powerful enchantments being performed at restricted times, such as under a full moon at midnight, or star alignments, and using very rare ingredients. And such enchantments might a a secret until a player figures out the means (a game in itself). Add in that the world can only have a set number of such each specific enchantment because it relies on a power link to a deity. This would limit powerful enchantments to the "rare" category.
I am also big on cursed gear that may give great power at a downfall. My mage on Oblivion was a vampire high elf mage. I had bad elemental weakness especially to fire in exchange for power.
Imagine finding a rare sword that without identifying you equip. Turns out to be cursed and strong sword. You have a choice of quest to remove or to use it. You and the sword grows stronger with kills but twisted your body as well. At a certain you become a lich and attackable by players and KOS to most NPCs.
I just want to see more interesting gameplay the quest to max and raid.
@Vermillion_Raventhal, while I like RNG, it would be nice if an MMO "kept in mind" the players class/race. Maybe a table for Rangers, separate from a table for Clerics? It would suck if your main weapon got ruined by acquiring "Wizard Stats" if not playing a Wizard
OT: As for "gated power", I have no problems with that, in any form. I've never thought going into an MMO, "I'm going to do EVERYTHING on this one character." I accept that I'll never PvP or Raid, so that content I don't mind missing out on. But I'll spend lots of time crafting or seeking quests.
I'm certainly NOT a top tier MMO player, so that is not a goal of mine, either
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Never really liked the Loot System of older MMO's or even most games to be honest.
I mean really, the best items come from some "Monster" .. as opposed to being forged by master crafters in the known world?
That makes no sense to me. I need to go out and kill some giant, to get their mystical spear... but.. where did they get the spear to start with? Oh right.. some crafter. So.. why can't we just make a spear like it?
Well it needs the blood of devils to make it stronger.. well I just killed a few hundred devils getting to this giant.. can we use some of that blood? No.. No.. I need to go kill this giant.. for this spear.. which they may drop.. say 1% of the time.. and yet.. have it in their hands 100% of the time..
Just never.. got that... never liked it..
Always liked the idea of a good crafting system that involved an integrated system with the rest of the world around it.
It would make more sense that I needed giant blood to make a weapon.. then I needed the weapon from the Giant themselves.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Never really liked the Loot System of older MMO's or even most games to be honest.
I mean really, the best items come from some "Monster" .. as opposed to being forged by master crafters in the known world?
That makes no sense to me. I need to go out and kill some giant, to get their mystical spear... but.. where did they get the spear to start with? Oh right.. some crafter. So.. why can't we just make a spear like it?
Well it needs the blood of devils to make it stronger.. well I just killed a few hundred devils getting to this giant.. can we use some of that blood? No.. No.. I need to go kill this giant.. for this spear.. which they may drop.. say 1% of the time.. and yet.. have it in their hands 100% of the time..
Just never.. got that... never liked it..
Always liked the idea of a good crafting system that involved an integrated system with the rest of the world around it.
It would make more sense that I needed giant blood to make a weapon.. then I needed the weapon from the Giant themselves.
One reason why I liked the idea of randomly get gear. Rare chance to craft a legendary weapon. A chance for it to drop of a legendary creature/character. A chance to forge one in combat killing a legendary creature. Killing large numbers of the same type of creature has a chance for enchantment. One time quest giving a chance to find legendary gear.
MMORPG are so unimaginative. The players likely are too.
What I'd like to see is ingredients that then need to be refined by an expert crafter into what is needed for that component in item creation. This refined ingredient could come in various forms; potion, powder, alloy, etc. Then used in various ways in creating the magical item; soaking (wood, parchment), straight up as an alloy (metals), as magical script inlays, heat infusion (gems), etc.
And the more powerful the magic, the rarer the base ingredient and/or the more complicated the refining process should be.
And I'm tired of the large power gaps. Power gaps are another symptom of the "Monty Hall Campaign" game design that's so boring and makes previous levels, zones, and gear useless. I wonder if most current gamers know that term, "Monty Hall Campaign?"
Edit: I'll add that such magical items should also be found on powerful MOBs. And a player can then use it, or tear it down and discover what caused the magical affects. So that would be part of the discovery of magical creation. Along with ancient tomes and inscriptions on the walls of ruins. And experimentation, of course.
Never really liked the Loot System of older MMO's or even most games to be honest.
I mean really, the best items come from some "Monster" .. as opposed to being forged by master crafters in the known world?
That makes no sense to me. I need to go out and kill some giant, to get their mystical spear... but.. where did they get the spear to start with? Oh right.. some crafter. So.. why can't we just make a spear like it?
Well it needs the blood of devils to make it stronger.. well I just killed a few hundred devils getting to this giant.. can we use some of that blood? No.. No.. I need to go kill this giant.. for this spear.. which they may drop.. say 1% of the time.. and yet.. have it in their hands 100% of the time..
Just never.. got that... never liked it..
Always liked the idea of a good crafting system that involved an integrated system with the rest of the world around it.
It would make more sense that I needed giant blood to make a weapon.. then I needed the weapon from the Giant themselves.
One reason why I liked the idea of randomly get gear. Rare chance to craft a legendary weapon. A chance for it to drop of a legendary creature/character. A chance to forge one in combat killing a legendary creature. Killing large numbers of the same type of creature has a chance for enchantment. One time quest giving a chance to find legendary gear.
MMORPG are so unimaginative. The players likely are too.
RNG sucks.
I learned that well playing Trove where everything is RNG.
It might seem like a thrill to pull something great, but overall it mainly sucks, and only gets worse at the higher levels.
Reality is, no one wants to screw up making a Legendary item anymore then people want to open a raid chest and see nothing but loot gen crap and zero rare items. Players may not like drudgery, and may enjoy a bit of thrilling loot, hence the addiction to loot boxes.
But No one says "Holy shit balls, I just spent 100 hours collecting all this stuff and then fucked up the crafting and lost it all.. I LOVE THIS GAME!"
No one says that.. no one... (unless maybe meth was involved)
Players like to be in control of their progression, this is why games will sometimes offer you control over the RNG, usually at a Cost of Real Money, because they know, this is the path that players really want as well and want it so much, they will pay cash for it.
Allow that to simmer.. as you plan your rebuttal.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I have no problem with the grind. I've actually come to find it very relaxing. It's the RNG that bothers me.
The days of me joining raids are dead, buried and consecrated. So if that's the only means to get decent gear then I'm not playing the game in the first place.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I have no problem with the grind. I've actually come to find it very relaxing. It's the RNG that bothers me.
The days of me joining raids are dead, buried and consecrated. So if that's the only means to get decent gear then I'm not playing the game in the first place.
I totally agree with this.. and this is why it was such a pisser when GW2 put in raids, had they had them from the start, I would have just ignored the game, but putting them several years later was just a cheap shot.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I don't mind. If players put time and effort into anything in a game that other player haven't, they should get equivalent rewards. As long as I can do all of the other stuff I want to without having to do the gear grind (meaning I can complete quests, etc. with the gear I can get outside the gear grind), I am fine with that.
Never really liked the Loot System of older MMO's or even most games to be honest.
I mean really, the best items come from some "Monster" .. as opposed to being forged by master crafters in the known world?
That makes no sense to me. I need to go out and kill some giant, to get their mystical spear... but.. where did they get the spear to start with? Oh right.. some crafter. So.. why can't we just make a spear like it?
Well it needs the blood of devils to make it stronger.. well I just killed a few hundred devils getting to this giant.. can we use some of that blood? No.. No.. I need to go kill this giant.. for this spear.. which they may drop.. say 1% of the time.. and yet.. have it in their hands 100% of the time..
Just never.. got that... never liked it..
Always liked the idea of a good crafting system that involved an integrated system with the rest of the world around it.
It would make more sense that I needed giant blood to make a weapon.. then I needed the weapon from the Giant themselves.
One reason why I liked the idea of randomly get gear. Rare chance to craft a legendary weapon. A chance for it to drop of a legendary creature/character. A chance to forge one in combat killing a legendary creature. Killing large numbers of the same type of creature has a chance for enchantment. One time quest giving a chance to find legendary gear.
MMORPG are so unimaginative. The players likely are too.
RNG sucks.
I learned that well playing Trove where everything is RNG.
It might seem like a thrill to pull something great, but overall it mainly sucks, and only gets worse at the higher levels.
Reality is, no one wants to screw up making a Legendary item anymore then people want to open a raid chest and see nothing but loot gen crap and zero rare items. Players may not like drudgery, and may enjoy a bit of thrilling loot, hence the addiction to loot boxes.
But No one says "Holy shit balls, I just spent 100 hours collecting all this stuff and then fucked up the crafting and lost it all.. I LOVE THIS GAME!"
No one says that.. no one... (unless maybe meth was involved)
Players like to be in control of their progression, this is why games will sometimes offer you control over the RNG, usually at a Cost of Real Money, because they know, this is the path that players really want as well and want it so much, they will pay cash for it.
Allow that to simmer.. as you plan your rebuttal.
Some of that has to do with being stuck in vertical progression themepark hell. Raids shouldn't be something done over and over. They should be one time things to end threats or disruptions to the players. Legendary should be rare. Not something every top player has 5 or 6 of.
Comments
I'm waiting for the release of Legend of Aria. In that game, I don't expect the gear to be gated behind raid or grind because that is not the endgame of the game.
in 1999-2000 you had Everquest and Asheron's Call, both amazing games especially at the time.
unfortunately every game after copied EQ rather than AC. Games would be so much better had they followed the AC system for loot
Just some thoughts to add...
If we're going to get away from raids, then to replace that sort of polished content but without the scripted predictability we're going to need AI.
And it's about time!
Yes, magical items should be created in various ways.
But maybe not just items, why can't stats be permanently (or temporally) enhanced? In D+D (pen and paper) you used to kill a Dragon and bath in it's blood for extra HP's or Armor rating (I forget now which) to simulate a tougher skin as protection.
In effect, why not have effects for weapons, armor, stats, and things like tough skin (armor rating), Fast Feet (running speed), chameleon effects (stealth or hide), etc., from blood or other time sensitive after-the-kill effects?
Another example might be that if you kill a powerful Vampire, and then kill it's undead "soul" (with a wooden weapon) before it flies away, you might gain any of various Vampire like powers. Turn into a bat and fly, power of invisibility, "charm" as a stun like effect.
(I'd definitely make such a thing very difficult to perform.)
I also like the idea of powerful enchantments being performed at restricted times, such as under a full moon at midnight, or star alignments, and using very rare ingredients. And such enchantments might a a secret until a player figures out the means (a game in itself). Add in that the world can only have a set number of such each specific enchantment because it relies on a power link to a deity.
This would limit powerful enchantments to the "rare" category.
Once upon a time....
Imagine finding a rare sword that without identifying you equip. Turns out to be cursed and strong sword. You have a choice of quest to remove or to use it. You and the sword grows stronger with kills but twisted your body as well. At a certain you become a lich and attackable by players and KOS to most NPCs.
I just want to see more interesting gameplay the quest to max and raid.
@Vermillion_Raventhal, while I like RNG, it would be nice if an MMO "kept in mind" the players class/race. Maybe a table for Rangers, separate from a table for Clerics? It would suck if your main weapon got ruined by acquiring "Wizard Stats" if not playing a Wizard
OT:
As for "gated power", I have no problems with that, in any form. I've never thought going into an MMO, "I'm going to do EVERYTHING on this one character." I accept that I'll never PvP or Raid, so that content I don't mind missing out on. But I'll spend lots of time crafting or seeking quests.
I'm certainly NOT a top tier MMO player, so that is not a goal of mine, either
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I mean really, the best items come from some "Monster" .. as opposed to being forged by master crafters in the known world?
That makes no sense to me. I need to go out and kill some giant, to get their mystical spear... but.. where did they get the spear to start with? Oh right.. some crafter. So.. why can't we just make a spear like it?
Well it needs the blood of devils to make it stronger.. well I just killed a few hundred devils getting to this giant.. can we use some of that blood? No.. No.. I need to go kill this giant.. for this spear.. which they may drop.. say 1% of the time.. and yet.. have it in their hands 100% of the time..
Just never.. got that... never liked it..
Always liked the idea of a good crafting system that involved an integrated system with the rest of the world around it.
It would make more sense that I needed giant blood to make a weapon.. then I needed the weapon from the Giant themselves.
MMORPG are so unimaginative. The players likely are too.
Then used in various ways in creating the magical item; soaking (wood, parchment), straight up as an alloy (metals), as magical script inlays, heat infusion (gems), etc.
And the more powerful the magic, the rarer the base ingredient and/or the more complicated the refining process should be.
And I'm tired of the large power gaps. Power gaps are another symptom of the "Monty Hall Campaign" game design that's so boring and makes previous levels, zones, and gear useless.
I wonder if most current gamers know that term, "Monty Hall Campaign?"
Edit: I'll add that such magical items should also be found on powerful MOBs. And a player can then use it, or tear it down and discover what caused the magical affects.
So that would be part of the discovery of magical creation. Along with ancient tomes and inscriptions on the walls of ruins.
And experimentation, of course.
Once upon a time....
I learned that well playing Trove where everything is RNG.
It might seem like a thrill to pull something great, but overall it mainly sucks, and only gets worse at the higher levels.
Reality is, no one wants to screw up making a Legendary item anymore then people want to open a raid chest and see nothing but loot gen crap and zero rare items. Players may not like drudgery, and may enjoy a bit of thrilling loot, hence the addiction to loot boxes.
But No one says "Holy shit balls, I just spent 100 hours collecting all this stuff and then fucked up the crafting and lost it all.. I LOVE THIS GAME!"
No one says that.. no one... (unless maybe meth was involved)
Players like to be in control of their progression, this is why games will sometimes offer you control over the RNG, usually at a Cost of Real Money, because they know, this is the path that players really want as well and want it so much, they will pay cash for it.
Allow that to simmer.. as you plan your rebuttal.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Unless the item is a random world drop, you can kind of randomly do whatever you want and get lucky.