All the negatives was to be expected, especially the low amount of content. No surprises there.
For 6 years of development time, i would say that was not to be expected at all
They put most of their effort into the visuals, the combat, cash shop and all the things that sells. Loo at all their late games. Really, no surprise there
cash shop? Pray tell.
Hint: the comment does point to you not having looked at the game or even read up on it.
Unfortunately I disagree pretty heavily with most of this review and think a 6.5/10 is rate very low for Anthem.
The story line has been enjoyable, as is the interaction with the NPCs, and of course you commented on the scripting and mo-cap which is done very well. Typically I play without audio but have enjoyed it this time around.
I understand a good bit of your review is based around Bugs you had issues with, which I think does require some sort of shout out, but when its something that doesn't effect everyone or even the majority of players, I dont think it should be so easy to rate it off of. I've had none of the bugs you referred to, I've had the game crash out on me twice in the 20 hrs of run time so far, but nothing beyond that.
The load screen frustration I can understand, I think they have definitely sped up a bit over how they were, but they can still be an annoyance, but being a HUB style game I knew what to expect. The load screen for being tethered along during an excursion or re-spawn during an excursion are the only really glaring problem load screens imo.
Freeplay/Freeroam I feel is the shining star of the dang game right now (right next to strongholds which are a blast), I honestly never noticed it scaled anything to the other players, I went around soloing the entire time during free play, finding events by scouting (which I find to be a pro not a con) instead of being spoon fed the locations, finding hidden loot boxes while exploring tucked away locations, harvesting crafting materials though all the various nodes, searching for ancient glyphs in ruins for reputation gains, and of course the variable Freeroam boss mobs that you can take on.
I can see your frustration if your wanting a PUG with the randoms you get matched with, and are hoping for some sort of personal interaction. A ping system could be useful or outright annoying if people repeatedly ping when I have no intention of assisting them. It definitely shouldn't auto group, maybe give you a slider to decide if you'd want this before launching the free roam but nothing beyond that, as it is if you go into free roam with a premade group your all together and no issues like you describe arise.
The Loot, I mean you chase the higher color, you look for new weapons with better stats, you hope for a useful affix on the rare items (I do 100% agree that the affix' are very hard to understand and your not really sure if they are useful or not), and you look for new and interesting mods to your abilities. Not really sure what else you can expect from a looter shooter?
The personalization is definitely pretty low right now, its a very robust system, but they have very few options available right now. I assume this is because they want people excited about the next wave of Featured cosmetics each week when it refreshes. Without any of the preorders or purchased armor skins, you just have the basic look and can be kinda vanilla. They should provide some sort of special skins if you complete certain challenges/achievements, possibly reward armor skins from Stronghold Completions, or at least open up the Featured store a bit more so people can customize more.
Overall it has much room for improvement yes, but is no where near the negative review you gave it. Anthem should be sitting around 7.5-8/10. ESPECIALLY with Fallout 76 getting a 7/10. Nothing deserves a 10/10, and its definitely not yet a 9/10 material, but hopefully with updates it will get there.
So what am getting from most people's opinions is that Bioware is not allowed to make anything besides what they've made in the past. If the story doesn't have the same level of immersion it's just not good enough. What is the matter with you people? Why can't the game be what it is? Can't you judge it that way rather than what it is not?
No, they have made a second rate game, that's what I think we are getting at anyway. But yes the sort of games you referred to were their best. I am a fan of this style of game, quite happy to see them making a success of it.
Anthem may pull itself round just like FO76 may, just like (insert another big name release here) may. Meanwhile I long for the time when players were not going from one half baked release to another. The damage this is doing to players perception of MMO's, MMO like games and gaming in general is hard to quantify but we may end up with players viewing MMO like games as something to avoid.
It's also not like they have gone out and done something new. They're just following the MMO-lite looter shooter trend and not even very well at that.
Judging it by "what it is" means acknowledging that the aggregate review scores are 10-20 points below the comparable games like Warframe, Destiny and The Division.
So yes, Bioware is definitely allowed to do new things... I wish to God they would with the quality they were once known for.
Don't forget the people BW/EA they have lost recently like Dragon Age creative director Mike Laidlaw,
studio general manager Aaryn Flynn, Mass Effect: Andromeda lead writer Chris
Schlerf, Dragon Age lead writer David Gaider, and Mass Effect: Andromeda
senior development director Chris Wynn. Also Drew Karpyshyn started work as the lead writer and then just left before the game was finished. Speaks volumes.
The game has flying and fun combat in 3rd person. It is NOT (caps very intentional) Destiny of any particular number. It is 3rd person. It is NOT a cover shooter like Division 2 so can we stop those comparisons? I will play neither of those. I do not like moving from cover to cover and I can't really do 1st person anymore. I also do not like the camera in Warframe, I have tried it several times. It has also been around for years so content comparison hardly seems fair.
Many of the problems folks are complaining about I have not experienced and are over-exaggerated by the haters. I read about people trying to go into freeplay from the squad screen and complaining they can't go solo into freeplay. I've read several reviews that say that ffs. No you have to get out of the squad screen to go out into the freeplay mode solo but it's way easier and fits the narrative to do it wrong and then say the game is broken.
They are going to be adding content quickly, according to their roadmap, and if you look at it you'll see there is a lot of focus on freeplay so I expect that will improve a lot in short order here. I am gradually getting the hang of that aspect and I really enjoy just getting out into the geography and flying around. The world they have built is amazing.
As far as the story goes: I have never understood the attraction to being spoon fed a story in a computer game. I am old. I grew up with a thing called books. If I'm looking for a good story I will read one of the millions of those that are out there. Or failing that I will load up a movie on the expensive OLED TV I have in my living room. I play a computer game to do just that - play, not read.
Flying around is one of the main reasons for this game. If you don't care for that (just as I don't care for computer story telling) you will probably have no use for it.
As far as the story goes: I have never understood the attraction to being spoon fed a story in a computer game. I am old. I grew up with a thing called books. If I'm looking for a good story I will read one of the millions of those that are out there. Or failing that I will load up a movie on the expensive OLED TV I have in my living room. I play a computer game to do just that - play, not read.
Haha! This is me 100%. I mean a good story doesn't hurt, but gameplay is why you play games.
Anyone playing anthem, I want you to watch this and then continue playing (Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real time):
Worth the wait?
tell me what game in the last 20 years looks like the trailer ?
People already moan about load times if you want amazing detail then you have load times I remember playing Dragons lair on the amiga ffs you had to swap disks every time you died people these days have it easy and yet they still want more detail and 0 load times....well maybe in another 20 years
Anyone playing anthem, I want you to watch this and then continue playing (Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real time):
Worth the wait?
tell me what game in the last 20 years looks like the trailer ?
People already moan about load times if you want amazing detail then you have load times I remember playing Dragons lair on the amiga ffs you had to swap disks every time you died people these days have it easy and yet they still want more detail and 0 load times....well maybe in another 20 years
I'm sure you think you made a wonderful point; however, you forget that a majority of trailers use in-game cinematics. This was prefaced as everything being from in-game gameplay. So, yeah....Graphically, no game really holds up to an E3 or other even trailer, but gameplay, that's something else. Keep trying though.
Proudly claims they don't play games for their stories, and doesn't understand why people do
Defends a game created by a company who is responsible for 2 of the greatest stories in game history like it's his own child
Sticks chests out like like it's not the grossest of contradictions EVER on this forum
I'll take "Lives In Region Susceptible to Measles, Mumps, and Smallpox" for 1000 Alex
I come to this website because it's one of the few out there that does things straight up imho and in case you haven't noticed? They cover a lot more than just RPGs and MMORPGs. There is a real reason those are a dying breed or do you not actually read what's going on. This site now covers phone games as well or is that OK too as long as they have a story?
No this site covers all kinds of games now because they have to to stay alive and they want to broaden their base to be able to do just that. There is no contradiction at all in coming to a site like this and maybe you need to get with the times?
I'll take "Sticking my Head in the Sand cause I don't like the way things are going" for a thousand Alex.
So what am getting from most people's opinions is that Bioware is not allowed to make anything besides what they've made in the past. If the story doesn't have the same level of immersion it's just not good enough. What is the matter with you people? Why can't the game be what it is? Can't you judge it that way rather than what it is not?
No, they have made a second rate game, that's what I think we are getting at anyway. But yes the sort of games you referred to were their best. I am a fan of this style of game, quite happy to see them making a success of it.
Anthem may pull itself round just like FO76 may, just like (insert another big name release here) may. Meanwhile I long for the time when players were not going from one half baked release to another. The damage this is doing to players perception of MMO's, MMO like games and gaming in general is hard to quantify but we may end up with players viewing MMO like games as something to avoid.
It's also not like they have gone out and done something new. They're just following the MMO-lite looter shooter trend and not even very well at that.
Judging it by "what it is" means acknowledging that the aggregate review scores are 10-20 points below the comparable games like Warframe, Destiny and The Division.
So yes, Bioware is definitely allowed to do new things... I wish to God they would with the quality they were once known for.
Don't forget the people they have lost recently like Dragon Age creative director Mike Laidlaw,
studio general manager Aaryn Flynn, Mass Effect: Andromeda lead writer Chris
Schlerf, Dragon Age lead writer David Gaider, and Mass Effect: Andromeda
senior development director Chris Wynn. Also Drew Karpyshyn started work as the lead writer and then just left before the game was finished. Speaks volumes.
Yeah. It happens to a lot of studios. People underestimate individual talent and leadership and just think because they once did great things they'll just keep doing that.
Sebastian Stepien (lead writer for Cyberpunk 2077 and Creative director of W3) getting poached by Blizzard will hurt CDPR. Maybe not for Cyberpunk since that's almost done but it'l be interesting to see what happens to CDPR after that.
IMO, as I've said before, Bioware continued to be somewhat like their better selves even after the EA deal when the two doctors, Muzyka and Zeschuk, were still running the show. But it's been steadily downhill since they retired in 2012.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Anthem is rated lower than Fallout 76. And with the con of "inexcusable level of bugs" after you literally spent all of THAT shitshow's review excusing a far greater level of bugs. Is that a joke?
Be consistent if you want to be taken seriously. Because right now, I can't and don't take this site seriously as a review platform.
You have to think of MMORPG.com as more of a social platform, it isn't monolithic when it comes to games.
Good point. I spend more time here than in mmorpgs, lol. This is my new mmo.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Proudly claims they don't play games for their stories, and doesn't understand why people do
Defends a game created by a company who is responsible for 2 of the greatest stories in game history like it's his own child
Sticks chests out like like it's not the grossest of contradictions EVER on this forum
I'll take "Lives In Region Susceptible to Measles, Mumps, and Smallpox" for 1000 Alex
I come to this website because it's one of the few out there that does things straight up imho and in case you haven't noticed? They cover a lot more than just RPGs and MMORPGs. There is a real reason those are a dying breed or do you not actually read what's going on. This site now covers phone games as well or is that OK too as long as they have a story?
No this site covers all kinds of games now because they have to to stay alive and they want to broaden their base to be able to do just that. There is no contradiction at all in coming to a site like this and maybe you need to get with the times?
I'll take "Sticking my Head in the Sand cause I don't like the way things are going" for a thousand Alex.
Proudly claims they don't play games for their stories, and doesn't understand why people do
Defends a game created by a company who is responsible for 2 of the greatest stories in game history like it's his own child
Sticks chests out like like it's not the grossest of contradictions EVER on this forum
I'll take "Lives In Region Susceptible to Measles, Mumps, and Smallpox" for 1000 Alex
I come to this website because it's one of the few out there that does things straight up imho and in case you haven't noticed? They cover a lot more than just RPGs and MMORPGs. There is a real reason those are a dying breed or do you not actually read what's going on. This site now covers phone games as well or is that OK too as long as they have a story?
No this site covers all kinds of games now because they have to to stay alive and they want to broaden their base to be able to do just that. There is no contradiction at all in coming to a site like this and maybe you need to get with the times?
I'll take "Sticking my Head in the Sand cause I don't like the way things are going" for a thousand Alex.
Anyone playing anthem, I want you to watch this and then continue playing (Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real time):
Worth the wait?
tell me what game in the last 20 years looks like the trailer ?
People already moan about load times if you want amazing detail then you have load times I remember playing Dragons lair on the amiga ffs you had to swap disks every time you died people these days have it easy and yet they still want more detail and 0 load times....well maybe in another 20 years
I'm sure you think you made a wonderful point; however, you forget that a majority of trailers use in-game cinematics. This was prefaced as everything being from in-game gameplay. So, yeah....Graphically, no game really holds up to an E3 or other even trailer, but gameplay, that's something else. Keep trying though.
The only part of the game that does not look like the trailer is the fort where you just grab a quest and jump into the world, the open world (freeplay) looks alot like the trailer so i still don't see your original point....yes it was worth the wait.
My question to you is have you even played the game ?
Anyone playing anthem, I want you to watch this and then continue playing (Everything you are about to see was captured in-game running in real time):
Worth the wait?
tell me what game in the last 20 years looks like the trailer ?
People already moan about load times if you want amazing detail then you have load times I remember playing Dragons lair on the amiga ffs you had to swap disks every time you died people these days have it easy and yet they still want more detail and 0 load times....well maybe in another 20 years
I'm sure you think you made a wonderful point; however, you forget that a majority of trailers use in-game cinematics. This was prefaced as everything being from in-game gameplay. So, yeah....Graphically, no game really holds up to an E3 or other even trailer, but gameplay, that's something else. Keep trying though.
The only part of the game that does not look like the trailer is the fort where you just grab a quest and jump into the world, the open world (freeplay) looks alot like the trailer so i still don't see your original point....yes it was worth the wait.
My question to you is have you even played the game ?
That must be why the Official Trailer has the words: "Game Engine Footage" at the start ......
(Edit: to be clear, as @Rhygarth says, the game looks like the trailer!)
I'm having a hard time stomaching the Anthem defense crowd. This is a loot shooter without a place where you can even see your stats. In every other game of the genre you see what new gear does (and how it looks) by clicking a couple of buttons; here it involves multiple loading screens. The variety on items is minimal. The mission variety is minimal. Crafting costs are high, making the entire system moot; cosmetic options minimal (not even from the cash shop.) There are a host of technical issues - *not bugs - by this I mean poor design choices. The merger of the single player game with the multi-player aspect is widely regarded as poorly done. Dozens of professional reviews and hundreds of user reviews make the same points over and over.
And virtually everyone also agrees that the Iron Man flying bit is cool, the game looks amazing, and there is general agreement that the game play is also solid. But all of the disastrous, inexplicable design choices are also real. This is not a labor of love from a couple of guys in a basement; hundreds of people looked over this game and decided that the layers of loading screens were totally cool. You couldn't possibly see a clearer sign that Bioware has utterly and completely lost the plot. Fixing the defects isn't a matter of patching bugs. It's a matter of fixing deeply baked in bad design choices.
If the Iron Man bit is enough for you, great! Just don't be surprised if others notice the numerous flaws. As far as I'm concerned, the Bioware that made games that I liked is long dead (I liked their games through Mass Effect 2, and they lost me at Dragon Age 2). EA stinks, but this is all on them - and if they're shut down they earned it as far as I'm concerned.
I'm having a hard time stomaching the Anthem defense crowd. This is a loot shooter without a place where you can even see your stats. In every other game of the genre you see what new gear does (and how it looks) by clicking a couple of buttons; here it involves multiple loading screens. The variety on items is minimal. The mission variety is minimal. Crafting costs are high, making the entire system moot; cosmetic options minimal (not even from the cash shop.) There are a host of technical issues - *not bugs - by this I mean poor design choices. The merger of the single player game with the multi-player aspect is widely regarded as poorly done. Dozens of professional reviews and hundreds of user reviews make the same points over and over.
And virtually everyone also agrees that the Iron Man flying bit is cool, the game looks amazing, and there is general agreement that the game play is also solid. But all of the disastrous, inexplicable design choices are also real. This is not a labor of love from a couple of guys in a basement; hundreds of people looked over this game and decided that the layers of loading screens were totally cool. You couldn't possibly see a clearer sign that Bioware has utterly and completely lost the plot. Fixing the defects isn't a matter of patching bugs. It's a matter of fixing deeply baked in bad design choices.
If the Iron Man bit is enough for you, great! Just don't be surprised if others notice the numerous flaws. As far as I'm concerned, the Bioware that made games that I liked is long dead (I liked their games through Mass Effect 2, and they lost me at Dragon Age 2). EA stinks, but this is all on them - and if they're shut down they earned it as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think anyone defending the game is trying to say the game is flawless. We are not blind. We are just taking the game for what it is. A good time. Most of us too came in here said we liked the game and than were attacked for it. The funny thing to me is that so many people hate on this game that they try to get the people who like the game to do the same.
And i am having a hard time seeing how a game that i have put 50+ hours into is geting this much hate.
Is it perfect ? not by a mile but I play games for fun not perfection and i am having alot of fun in Anthem.
If you don't enjoy it thats fine
These people that bring up the trailer make me smile if the game did not have an open beta then yes i could see why you could get upset that the fort is not 100% like the trailer but ffs everybody had the chance to download it and see just what it looks like.
I really do understand liking things that others pile onto. I actually enjoyed ESO on release and had almost no bugs / issues playing it. But I could also see that a lot of other people really were having problems, which was a legit hit on the game. In this case, however, it really does seem as if there are some truly head-scratching choices - along with a game that has some fun underlying parts. If people really love the core game play, IDing the issues and getting them fixed would seem to be a pretty valuable thing to do. It's the "hate train" claims that are so puzzling to me - as it looks as if both fans and detractors actually seem to agree about what's god and what's not. Does anyone actually like the loading screens to equip new gear?
I only paid $15 for a month of Origin Premium so I don't feel too burned, but if I were a console player and paid full price for this, I'd be angry about it. It is mediocre in almost every conceivable way. It's a looter shooter with boring loot and three appearances per class. When I'm out shooting stuff, it's fun, but there's way too much stuff in the way of doing so. 3 mission types isn't going to cut it. On top of all that, the story is very short, and padded out the ass. I wonder what percentage of the 15 or so hours it took me to finish was spent running between NPC's and staring at loading screens.
It's like they designed this game in a bubble where they didn't have examples of how to do it right. It's pretty clear that it was horribly mismanaged. I don't know if EA gave Bioware too much rope and they hung themselves, or if EA made them change course several times. I think it's probably a combination of both.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
That video comparison remind me I need to swap in an RTX card and see what features it has for Anthem, if any. The use of Ansel and Nvidia's built in post-processing on top of the normal graphic settings already makes it a really good looking game. If it can handle ray-tracing for reflections on RTX that might solve some lacking explosions and reflections.
Comments
Hint: the comment does point to you not having looked at the game or even read up on it.
The story line has been enjoyable, as is the interaction with the NPCs, and of course you commented on the scripting and mo-cap which is done very well. Typically I play without audio but have enjoyed it this time around.
I understand a good bit of your review is based around Bugs you had issues with, which I think does require some sort of shout out, but when its something that doesn't effect everyone or even the majority of players, I dont think it should be so easy to rate it off of. I've had none of the bugs you referred to, I've had the game crash out on me twice in the 20 hrs of run time so far, but nothing beyond that.
The load screen frustration I can understand, I think they have definitely sped up a bit over how they were, but they can still be an annoyance, but being a HUB style game I knew what to expect. The load screen for being tethered along during an excursion or re-spawn during an excursion are the only really glaring problem load screens imo.
Freeplay/Freeroam I feel is the shining star of the dang game right now (right next to strongholds which are a blast), I honestly never noticed it scaled anything to the other players, I went around soloing the entire time during free play, finding events by scouting (which I find to be a pro not a con) instead of being spoon fed the locations, finding hidden loot boxes while exploring tucked away locations, harvesting crafting materials though all the various nodes, searching for ancient glyphs in ruins for reputation gains, and of course the variable Freeroam boss mobs that you can take on.
I can see your frustration if your wanting a PUG with the randoms you get matched with, and are hoping for some sort of personal interaction. A ping system could be useful or outright annoying if people repeatedly ping when I have no intention of assisting them. It definitely shouldn't auto group, maybe give you a slider to decide if you'd want this before launching the free roam but nothing beyond that, as it is if you go into free roam with a premade group your all together and no issues like you describe arise.
The Loot, I mean you chase the higher color, you look for new weapons with better stats, you hope for a useful affix on the rare items (I do 100% agree that the affix' are very hard to understand and your not really sure if they are useful or not), and you look for new and interesting mods to your abilities. Not really sure what else you can expect from a looter shooter?
The personalization is definitely pretty low right now, its a very robust system, but they have very few options available right now. I assume this is because they want people excited about the next wave of Featured cosmetics each week when it refreshes. Without any of the preorders or purchased armor skins, you just have the basic look and can be kinda vanilla. They should provide some sort of special skins if you complete certain challenges/achievements, possibly reward armor skins from Stronghold Completions, or at least open up the Featured store a bit more so people can customize more.
Overall it has much room for improvement yes, but is no where near the negative review you gave it. Anthem should be sitting around 7.5-8/10. ESPECIALLY with Fallout 76 getting a 7/10. Nothing deserves a 10/10, and its definitely not yet a 9/10 material, but hopefully with updates it will get there.
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Many of the problems folks are complaining about I have not experienced and are over-exaggerated by the haters. I read about people trying to go into freeplay from the squad screen and complaining they can't go solo into freeplay. I've read several reviews that say that ffs. No you have to get out of the squad screen to go out into the freeplay mode solo but it's way easier and fits the narrative to do it wrong and then say the game is broken.
They are going to be adding content quickly, according to their roadmap, and if you look at it you'll see there is a lot of focus on freeplay so I expect that will improve a lot in short order here. I am gradually getting the hang of that aspect and I really enjoy just getting out into the geography and flying around. The world they have built is amazing.
As far as the story goes: I have never understood the attraction to being spoon fed a story in a computer game. I am old. I grew up with a thing called books. If I'm looking for a good story I will read one of the millions of those that are out there. Or failing that I will load up a movie on the expensive OLED TV I have in my living room. I play a computer game to do just that - play, not read.
Flying around is one of the main reasons for this game. If you don't care for that (just as I don't care for computer story telling) you will probably have no use for it.
- Frequents a website that covers RPGs and MMORPGs
- Proudly claims they don't play games for their stories, and doesn't understand why people do
- Defends a game created by a company who is responsible for 2 of the greatest stories in game history like it's his own child
- Sticks chests out like like it's not the grossest of contradictions EVER on this forum
I'll take "Lives In Region Susceptible to Measles, Mumps, and Smallpox" for 1000 Alex¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No this site covers all kinds of games now because they have to to stay alive and they want to broaden their base to be able to do just that. There is no contradiction at all in coming to a site like this and maybe you need to get with the times?
I'll take "Sticking my Head in the Sand cause I don't like the way things are going" for a thousand Alex.
Sebastian Stepien (lead writer for Cyberpunk 2077 and Creative director of W3) getting poached by Blizzard will hurt CDPR. Maybe not for Cyberpunk since that's almost done but it'l be interesting to see what happens to CDPR after that.
IMO, as I've said before, Bioware continued to be somewhat like their better selves even after the EA deal when the two doctors, Muzyka and Zeschuk, were still running the show. But it's been steadily downhill since they retired in 2012.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Reflexes not as good as a few years back.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(Edit: to be clear, as @Rhygarth says, the game looks like the trailer!)
It's like they designed this game in a bubble where they didn't have examples of how to do it right. It's pretty clear that it was horribly mismanaged. I don't know if EA gave Bioware too much rope and they hung themselves, or if EA made them change course several times. I think it's probably a combination of both.
Do you play Anthem?
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Anthem E3 vs Retail | Direct Comparison
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Anyone tooled about with that already with this?