Required grinds good or bad for genre?

Vermillion_Raventhal · April 2019

I have always viewed the grinds as crutches. The grinds stand in as content. Don't get me wrong you can have fun grinding. It just not really good gameplay to most people.

Questing was step in the right direction for content. Problem to me is that it too became a grind. Too many quest that were not worthwhile. Does anyone really enjoy roleplaying an errand boy just for the sake of "content."

Combat grinding feels like 95 percent of the genre. It's just repackaged over and over. Kill for exp or questing. Tab target or action combat. It all is mostly about combat grinding.

How do you feel about the grind? I know some people want more grind to make the journey important. I feel like there should be little to no grinds.

Amathe · April 2019

"Grind" is pejorative and begs the question. By calling it a grind you assume that's what it is.

I enjoy fighting, and I also enjoy slow character progression. So what you would call a grind is never a grind to me. I find it enjoyable and relaxing.

In days gone by, I loved joining "xp groups" in EQ and staking out an area to pull mobs. The best part was the conversation. We had a great time. It was not a grind.

ChildoftheShadows · April 2019

Perception is everything.

Grind

NOUN

hard dull work.
"relief from the daily grind"
synonyms:
chore · slog · travail · drudgery · toil · hard work · donkey work · labor ·
[more]

Sovrath · April 2019

Amathe said:

"Grind" is pejorative and begs the question. By calling it a grind you assume that's what it is.

I enjoy fighting, and I also enjoy slow character progression. So what you would call a grind is never a grind to me. I find it enjoyable and relaxing.

In days gone by, I loved joining "xp groups" in EQ and staking out an area to pull mobs. The best part was the conversation. We had a great time. It was not a grind.

This is pretty much me (to a point, I do enjoy soloing).

But I enjoy combat. I hate "quests" that have me go out and collect 4 things that happen to be right at my feet in a particular area or kill 5 whatever. I'd rather kill 20.

Or, make a quest where you go out and actually have to conquer a giant or some dangerous creature that isn't a few hits and it goes down.

But as others have said, it's subjective. There is always someone who says "x" is a grind.

It's simply not a grind if you enjoy it.

As for the OP's statement of "quests were a step in the right direction", I don't really agree. Oh sure, when I first tried the beta for World of Warcraft I enjoyed the idea of framing killing mobs with a story. that was great. But I'd stay in the area and continue, not just kill 10 and leave.

Very soon developers just kept putting in "thousands" of quests to appear like there was a lot of content. But most of those quests were just horrid.

I say, give options to players as to what their focus is, why they are out in the world. Then they will start collecting, conquering as a matter of course and that will be how they level up.

But getting high level just for the sake of being high level and getting high level gear to do high level content and then rinse and repeat is not the way to go.

Amathe · April 2019

Sovrath said:

I hate "quests" that have me go out and collect 4 things that happen to be right at my feet in a particular area

/agree

Brave hero, my mother wishes to bake a pie, but has not the required apples. May thee explore our woods and bring back 5 apples for her to cook? I am certain Mother will reward thee for thy efforts.

I truly hate this shit.

cmorris975 · April 2019

It depends on how it is done. Today’s emphasis on questing is a bad grind. I never read any of the text because I’m not interested at all. It is just a means to an end, that end being character progression. I only quest because it’s the most efficient form of leveling in most games. I prefer to invent my own storyline for my character and do not need it provided for me.

I would honestly rather do the 2001 EQ “camp a good XP spot” form of grinding. It’s got to have time sinks like slower mana or health regen though, otherwise you are just pulling and pulling and that’s just as bad. We used to have hilarious conversations while grinding that way. Or if we worked our way, slowly and methodically, farther and farther into a dungeon over a few hours... Now THAT was fun.

You could potentially come back with a rare item that not everyone had. You had to risk painful corpse recoveries at time though.

The social part was the best part. The games of today don’t seem to allow for that. Not the big budget fantasy MMOs at least. Fast travel, no corpse runs, quick mana regen, level scaling, etc., have eliminated most opportunities for interaction. Seems like little more than a Pavlovian button-pushing frenzy wrapped in fancy graphics now.

Albatroes · April 2019

I'd love an amazing body without having to exercise or eat right but that wont happen.

Unfortunately, how games work today, you can 'grind' but everyone will be at the same point you are or relatively close within a month or 2 with 1/10th of the 'effort.' Compare that to the past where most people would get left behind if they didn't expand they type of content they did. That's why you hear all these people that've been out of the mmorpg loop asking 'will I be competitive' without understanding that everyone is in a threshold now regardless of the time and effort they put in.

iixviiiix · April 2019

My problem with grind is when it come to late game , it become less reward compare to time and work need to finish the grind .

I don't mind to grind 1-2h for 1 level then call it a day , but when it become few day , then a week for 1 level then **** it , i quit .

I don't mind to grind for 5 stats reward each level , but when i have to grind to unlock other contents then it become stupid .

Basically , developer did grind wrong , IMO

Here is my version of grind

A player start with 300 all stats

Max level is 1000

Each level reward 1 stat

Each level require same among of exp to level up . It mean that you start slow and grow faster later (instead become slower like current design)

Gears don't require level to equip , you can wear anything you manage to find

You can do any content you want , level don't matter .

Mendel · April 2019

Requiring anything is bad. It is a developers attempt at scripting how I want to play.

I recently played the BDO free weekend. The game was pretty. But when I stopped to whack a few dozen (okay, hundred dozen) critters, I trivialized almost everything in the area. Not only that, but the next area was now less challenging than it should have been. By grinding in one place longer than I needed, I managed to throw the carefully railed Quest-On-Rails system off the rails. Fortunately, I had seen all I wanted to by then, and allowed the free demo to expire.

Sovrath · April 2019

Amathe said:

Sovrath said:

I hate "quests" that have me go out and collect 4 things that happen to be right at my feet in a particular area

/agree

Brave hero, my mother wishes to bake a pie, but has not the required apples. May thee explore our woods and bring back 5 apples for her to cook? I am certain Mother will reward thee for thy efforts.

I truly hate this shit.

Part of one of the main quests in lord of the rings online involves carrying a basket of apples and then being asked to return the basket.

I just looked at my computer dumbfounded.

ChildoftheShadows · April 2019

Every MMORPG I played since wow is a grind to me with all the bullcrap things they call quests. Archeage had a chance I leveled up doing everything but quests it was just bad in other ways.

For quests I like EQ quests. Few and expansive and rewarding. EQ2 had the long quests I can't remember their name they were awesome. The rest are complete poo.

4507 · April 2019

I hate grinding. I can usually tolerate it to get to end-game, but I still find it pointless and unnecessary - why force me to suffer through kill 10 rats quests or make me sit in a corner killing near-instantly respawning wolves for however many hours until I can access the fun part of the game? Just start me at the fun part!

Vermillion_Raventhal · April 2019

Albatroes said:

I'd love an amazing body without having to exercise or eat right but that wont happen.

Unfortunately, how games work today, you can 'grind' but everyone will be at the same point you are or relatively close within a month or 2 with 1/10th of the 'effort.' Compare that to the past where most people would get left behind if they didn't expand they type of content they did. That's why you hear all these people that've been out of the mmorpg loop asking 'will I be competitive' without understanding that everyone is in a threshold now regardless of the time and effort they put in.

Unfortunately most people do not play games to be a job or work. My biggest issue with grind is that it's called content. Instead of lots of fun activities, I am given lots of bad quest or NPCs to kill. Too much random combat. Yes some people find it fun but I think it is very vanilla for multimillion dollar investment.

Give me quest for each ability I pick up and send me on my way. Quest should be optional or to gain practical rewards. In a sandbox give me task given to me by other players and procedural quest.

I like what Archeage did with ability to use gliders and sail ships. Just more non combat skills like map making, language translations or anything. I mean, being murder hobos standing around monster spawns is just seems uninspired.

Scorchien · April 2019

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

Gdemami · April 2019

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

Pretty much this.

Unless you can come up with an alternative, this discussion is moot.

Amathe · April 2019

Damn @Scorchien. You got something other than a LOL from @Gdemami. That may be a forum first. Grats mate.

Scorchien · April 2019

Amathe said:

Damn @Scorchien. You got something other than a LOL from @Gdemami. That may be a forum first. Grats mate.

LOL ................... i guess

Vermillion_Raventhal · April 2019

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.

Scorchien · April 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.

Im supposing we are discussing MMOs , if thats true name 3 that dont start as or devolve into grind

Sovrath · April 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.

Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"

Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.

Vermillion_Raventhal · April 2019

Scorchien said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.

Im supposing we are discussing MMOs , if thats true name 3 that dont start as or devolve into grind

They all do. Again, they do not have too. It is product of trying to keep subscribers.

I can name a bunch games with grinds that are reduced to annoying speed bumbs.

Vermillion_Raventhal · April 2019

Sovrath said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.

Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"

Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.

I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.

Vermillion_Raventhal · April 2019

I am always amazed how people say they don't want clones then basically describe how their ideal features are all WoW/EQ clones. I guess this is why we hot more than a decade of WoW clones.

Amathe · April 2019

I like reading fantasy books. When I finish one I read another. I don't, however, want the author to completely "innovate" and write a Harlequin romance or a spy novel. I want the basic core fantasy elements with some new fresh things.

People have been enjoying fantasy since (at least) Beowulf. Every game should not be a whole new slate.

ChildoftheShadows · April 2019

Amathe said:

I like reading fantasy books. When I finish one I read another. I don't, however, want the author to completely "innovate" and write a Harlequin romance or a spy novel. I want the basic core fantasy elements with some new fresh things.

People have been enjoying fantasy since (at least) Beowulf. Every game should not be a whole new slate.

Wrong thread maybe?

Sovrath · April 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Sovrath said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Scorchien said:

LIfe is Grind

Games are Grind

Embrace the Grind

There is no way around it

I have played plenty of games that aren't "grinds." I would say most games are not grinds.

Which mmorpg's don't have some sort of "grind?"

Whether it's crafting a lot of things to level crafting or raiding end game or finding a spot and killing mobs or gathering quest upon dull quest running to and fro and repeating.

I would say all MMORPG do but not all games It is unnecessary honestly. It's there for more dogmatic reasons than necessity.

If the idea is to have a "world" where there are a lot of players then their must be an obscene amount of content or goals that take a while. Of the games you are thinking of, is there one (or more) that you would think of playing for months on end?

Because otherwise players will run through the content in the initial rush then leave, the world will be empty for those who join late, then after a year another bit of content and then a repeat of players playing for a bit then leaving.

I think the original idea of an mmorpg was for it to be a rich inhabited world.

I think you are possibly thinking of games where you might do it for a few weeks then move on?

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