Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
The story of two hunters Fred and Bob.
20 years ago they built their guns by hand before they could hunt. This was their tradition and they looked forward to it. After the building part they got into their real joy hunting.
As time went along new kids came along and they didnt want to waste time building guns. Manufacturers streamlined the parts so the build didn't take long at all. Fred bitches and moans about this. Bob embraced the changes because he is tired of building guns.
Bob admits his real joy is hunting and not gun building. Bob expresses he wants to buy a store bought gun. Fred tells Bob he is better off skeet shooting then hunting with that fake gun. Fred looks at his gun and Bob's gun and they are identical despite him building his gun. Fred refuses to accept it.
Worst analogy (allegory) ever?
Nope made perfect sense Fred...
How.. explain how that made perfect sense, as the relations were disjointed and had nothing in common.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.
So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.
Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal. Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.
Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.
The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want.
That is like saying:
You: "I like golf, but, what if as opposed to clubs, we hit a ball with a big Stick, and then Run in a Huge Square like pattern while other people try to find the ball before I finish my run, why can't Golf be like that?"
Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"
You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"
Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.
You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.
Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
That doesn't mitigate the idea that this minority of players actually likes that stuff.
If you change the formula/design then you get a different group of people. What happens to the first group of people? They get together, make a game they want then other people come in and say "we don't like it, make it so 'we' like it."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
The story of two hunters Fred and Bob.
20 years ago they built their guns by hand before they could hunt. This was their tradition and they looked forward to it. After the building part they got into their real joy hunting.
As time went along new kids came along and they didnt want to waste time building guns. Manufacturers streamlined the parts so the build didn't take long at all. Fred bitches and moans about this. Bob embraced the changes because he is tired of building guns.
Bob admits his real joy is hunting and not gun building. Bob expresses he wants to buy a store bought gun. Fred tells Bob he is better off skeet shooting then hunting with that fake gun. Fred looks at his gun and Bob's gun and they are identical despite him building his gun. Fred refuses to accept it.
Worst analogy (allegory) ever?
Nope made perfect sense Fred...
How.. explain how that made perfect sense, as the relations were disjointed and had nothing in common.
GW2 player....they think....differently from the rest of us.
All jumbled together and random, just like the gameplay mechanics.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I played GW2 for a solid chunk. I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic. When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting. But even then people claimed there wasn't. Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.
When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.
So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.
Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal. Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.
Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.
The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want.
That is like saying:
You: "I like golf, but, what if as opposed to clubs, we hit a ball with a big Stick, and then Run in a Huge Square like pattern while other people try to find the ball before I finish my run, why can't Golf be like that?"
Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"
You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"
Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.
You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.
Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
It doesn't make sense because you have no clue of the concept. Or you do but have such disdain that your being obtuse. Doesn't matter.
MMO are simply genres that have been translated into online games with online worlds. Could very FPS like Planetside. It could even be a hypothetical Action Adventure like Legend of Zelda online. There are no hard rules to what can and can't be done. A BR has no world and is no where near what the OP is about. You don't have dungeons, raids or anything like that. You sound dumb.
What you are describing doesn't fit at all. OP is saying they want basketball without the 3 point shot. You are saying play I should play football because getting two points from a safety is the same as scoring a basket. Just sounds dumb.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
The story of two hunters Fred and Bob.
20 years ago they built their guns by hand before they could hunt. This was their tradition and they looked forward to it. After the building part they got into their real joy hunting.
As time went along new kids came along and they didnt want to waste time building guns. Manufacturers streamlined the parts so the build didn't take long at all. Fred bitches and moans about this. Bob embraced the changes because he is tired of building guns.
Bob admits his real joy is hunting and not gun building. Bob expresses he wants to buy a store bought gun. Fred tells Bob he is better off skeet shooting then hunting with that fake gun. Fred looks at his gun and Bob's gun and they are identical despite him building his gun. Fred refuses to accept it.
Worst analogy (allegory) ever?
It actually makes a lot of sense. It is not perfect. Just fits the mindset of many MMORPG players and likely developers. Dogmatic rules of how things must be done.
If this guy wants a Legend of Zelda online to play with friends and an online world... why should he be told to play a BR?
It would take a VERY immersive world to pull this off, e.g., deep player economy (hardcore crafting, social trades, player cities, player shopping malls), complex and entertaining combat, and an endless supply of aesthetics (armor, clothing, weapons, cloaks, mounts).
Jedi Academy-style combat, Second Life-style social players, and a gigantic world.
I'm in!
Not really. In Most MMOs already, the majority of players are max level and play in the game world for years without leveling again until level expansion.
Take Guild Wars 2 for example. Most of us are level 80. The whole game scales. So imagine if there was no level. The game would pretty much be the exact same, minus the original 1 to 80 grind/gated....
I don't think so. I read somewhere one that it is a minority by a very large margin that even reach Max level.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.
So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.
Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal. Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.
Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.
The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want.
That is like saying:
You: "I like golf, but, what if as opposed to clubs, we hit a ball with a big Stick, and then Run in a Huge Square like pattern while other people try to find the ball before I finish my run, why can't Golf be like that?"
Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"
You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"
Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.
You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.
Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
It doesn't make sense because you have no clue of the concept. Or you do but have such disdain that your being obtuse. Doesn't matter.
MMO are simply genres that have been translated into online games with online worlds. Could very FPS like Planetside. It could even be a hypothetical Action Adventure like Legend of Zelda online. There are no hard rules to what can and can't be done. A BR has no world and is no where near what the OP is about. You don't have dungeons, raids or anything like that. You sound dumb.
What you are describing doesn't fit at all. OP is saying they want basketball without the 3 point shot. You are saying play I should play football because getting two points from a safety is the same as scoring a basket. Just sounds dumb.
Ah, the personal insults..
Well, thanks. I'd return with some snide comment.. but I am a better person than that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I played GW2 for a solid chunk. I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic. When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting. But even then people claimed there wasn't. Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.
Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression. It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs.
Horizontal Progression, as a player who has played games for 40 years, is horrible.
I want to increase in power, even if it is incrementally, the more time and effort I dedicate to the game. Looking "cool" is nonsense...
RPG's are always about improving, growing from an inexperienced neophyte to an experienced adventurer. Take that away, and playing the game is meaningless... other than socialization.
It would take a VERY immersive world to pull this off, e.g., deep player economy (hardcore crafting, social trades, player cities, player shopping malls), complex and entertaining combat, and an endless supply of aesthetics (armor, clothing, weapons, cloaks, mounts).
Jedi Academy-style combat, Second Life-style social players, and a gigantic world.
I'm in!
Not really. In Most MMOs already, the majority of players are max level and play in the game world for years without leveling again until level expansion.
Take Guild Wars 2 for example. Most of us are level 80. The whole game scales. So imagine if there was no level. The game would pretty much be the exact same, minus the original 1 to 80 grind/gated....
I don't think so. I read somewhere one that it is a minority by a very large margin that even reach Max level.
That's in regard to accounts that purchase the game. Most people quit before reaching max level because the level grind is a boring grindy grandfathered mechanic. Those players justifiably Quit. Most players that play are max level or have max level main characters. We do endgame gameplay, which in Gw2 is everything. Take away the 1-80 level grind and the game pretty much stay the exact same.
When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.
So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.
Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal. Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.
Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.
The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want.
That is like saying:
You: "I like golf, but, what if as opposed to clubs, we hit a ball with a big Stick, and then Run in a Huge Square like pattern while other people try to find the ball before I finish my run, why can't Golf be like that?"
Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"
You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"
Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.
You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.
Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
It doesn't make sense because you have no clue of the concept. Or you do but have such disdain that your being obtuse. Doesn't matter.
MMO are simply genres that have been translated into online games with online worlds. Could very FPS like Planetside. It could even be a hypothetical Action Adventure like Legend of Zelda online. There are no hard rules to what can and can't be done. A BR has no world and is no where near what the OP is about. You don't have dungeons, raids or anything like that. You sound dumb.
What you are describing doesn't fit at all. OP is saying they want basketball without the 3 point shot. You are saying play I should play football because getting two points from a safety is the same as scoring a basket. Just sounds dumb.
No idea if you are right or wrong, but I will give you some hard earned advice.
Stop banging your head against the wall trying to discuss anything with him.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
The story of two hunters Fred and Bob.
20 years ago they built their guns by hand before they could hunt. This was their tradition and they looked forward to it. After the building part they got into their real joy hunting.
As time went along new kids came along and they didnt want to waste time building guns. Manufacturers streamlined the parts so the build didn't take long at all. Fred bitches and moans about this. Bob embraced the changes because he is tired of building guns.
Bob admits his real joy is hunting and not gun building. Bob expresses he wants to buy a store bought gun. Fred tells Bob he is better off skeet shooting then hunting with that fake gun. Fred looks at his gun and Bob's gun and they are identical despite him building his gun. Fred refuses to accept it.
Worst analogy (allegory) ever?
It actually makes a lot of sense. It is not perfect. Just fits the mindset of many MMORPG players and likely developers. Dogmatic rules of how things must be done.
If this guy wants a Legend of Zelda online to play with friends and an online world... why should he be told to play a BR?
I don't think it has anything to do with how it "must" be done.
People are showing up for a certain experience.
Sure, there could be an mmorpg without leveling. And for those people who want that experience, they would show up. But, we've already had people who don't like, for example, Guild Wars 2 as it doesn't give them a sense of progression. So, they don't show up. For those people playing Elder Scrolls Online only to have them implement the "one tamriel" and making it feel like everything they encounter is the same (not really true but people feel it is) then they don't play anymore.
A developer could just make an mmorpg without any progression but since their only examples are mmorpg's with leveling, it's a bit risky. The people investing in these games might not think it's viable.
They could go ahead with a kickstarter or some such thing but so far kickstarted mmorpg's haven't done well.
And once they get it done (assuming they get it done) if it's not a hit then that's just another nail in the coffin for similar games. Even if this game wasn't made well and that contributed more to its failure than the type of game it was.
It sounds to me like you are looking for a more massive version of Minecraft. It could be done but there are definitely people who don't like to build so there needs to be something for them. And if that's raiding or pvp there needs to be enough new content to keep them coming back. I think it's possible but what developer is going to step up to the plate and will they be able to be successful?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
That doesn't mitigate the idea that this minority of players actually likes that stuff.
If you change the formula/design then you get a different group of people. What happens to the first group of people? They get together, make a game they want then other people come in and say "we don't like it, make it so 'we' like it."
The formula is a flawed grandfathered mechanic. WoW is a prime example of this. Blizzard made the statement that most new players would quit before ever reaching max level. Blizzard interpreted this as the content for leveling needed to be revamped and updated. Then came Cataclysm, which is a prime example of everything wrong with Level grind. Much of Blizzard's resources for that expansion went into "OLD LEVELING CONTENT" instead of the endgame, which is why Cata was the expansion that Blizzard faced its major drop off going forward. Resources going to content that players can outlevel and never go back. New players still didnt stay to max level because it still was same old boring useless level grind that remain meaningless compared to endgame progression. Then Blizzard started added ways to level skip to get people to the start of the new level cap to level in the new expansions. All that and Blizzard still didnt get the memo that most players dont enjoy that meaningless level grind. It's an old grandfathered mechanic from older MMOs which we had no options to voice what we like and dislike.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
That doesn't mitigate the idea that this minority of players actually likes that stuff.
If you change the formula/design then you get a different group of people. What happens to the first group of people? They get together, make a game they want then other people come in and say "we don't like it, make it so 'we' like it."
The formula is a flawed grandfathered mechanic. WoW is a prime example of this. Blizzard made the statement that most new players would quit before ever reaching max level. Blizzard interpreted this as the content for leveling needed to be revamped and updated. Then came Cataclysm, which is a prime example of everything wrong with Level grind. Much of Blizzard's resources for that expansion went into "OLD LEVELING CONTENT" instead of the endgame, which is why Cata was the expansion that Blizzard faced its major drop off going forward. Resources going to content that players can outlevel and never go back. New players still didnt stay to max level because it still was same old boring useless level grind that remain meaningless compared to endgame progression. Then Blizzard started added ways to level skip to get people to the start of the new level cap to level in the new expansions. All that and Blizzard still didnt get the memo that most players dont enjoy that meaningless level grind. It's an old grandfathered mechanic from older MMOs which we had no options to voice what we like and dislike.
There are still people that like it though.
Any developer has to decide which demographic they are going to develop to. I'm sure Blizzard is trying to grab as many people as possible.
A lot of developers are.
As far as "old grandfathered" that might be but it doesn't mean it's "bad" just an early way of doing things.
It's a system that is based off of old pen and paper games. Guess what? People like that. Just like they still watch movies from the 30's with those movie conventions. Most people wouldn't like old movies from the 30's as there is a lot of "space" in them, how they move along, the shots, ways of speaking.
but there are people who like them, have clubs that support them.
Just like there are people who love the early games and how they worked. It's up to the developers to decide who they want to chase. Since they would like more money than less money they try to lessen perceived grind. For some that's better and for others they don't think it's bad so they don't like the quick leveling.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It would take a VERY immersive world to pull this off, e.g., deep player economy (hardcore crafting, social trades, player cities, player shopping malls), complex and entertaining combat, and an endless supply of aesthetics (armor, clothing, weapons, cloaks, mounts).
Jedi Academy-style combat, Second Life-style social players, and a gigantic world.
I'm in!
Not really. In Most MMOs already, the majority of players are max level and play in the game world for years without leveling again until level expansion.
Take Guild Wars 2 for example. Most of us are level 80. The whole game scales. So imagine if there was no level. The game would pretty much be the exact same, minus the original 1 to 80 grind/gated....
I don't think so. I read somewhere one that it is a minority by a very large margin that even reach Max level.
That's in regard to accounts that purchase the game. Most people quit before reaching max level because the level grind is a boring grindy grandfathered mechanic. Those players justifiably Quit. Most players that play are max level or have max level main characters. We do endgame gameplay, which in Gw2 is everything. Take away the 1-80 level grind and the game pretty much stay the exact same.
No it wasn't they were taking about the current active population. It want to say only 10% but can't remember the details.
My personal belief is that there are less people at Max level than leveling. At Max I think most roll alts.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The problem continues to be that all developers (and players) are looking for the "one game to rule them all" and insisting that they have to appeal to pretty much every person on the planet.
RPGs were always niche MMOs were always niche A few games broke those barriers
Instead of recognizing that those few games are the outliers we continue to argue and debate as though there is one single answer to the right type of game that will appeal to everyone.
If there was a formula for fun then things would be so much easier...
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
The story of two hunters Fred and Bob.
20 years ago they built their guns by hand before they could hunt. This was their tradition and they looked forward to it. After the building part they got into their real joy hunting.
As time went along new kids came along and they didnt want to waste time building guns. Manufacturers streamlined the parts so the build didn't take long at all. Fred bitches and moans about this. Bob embraced the changes because he is tired of building guns.
Bob admits his real joy is hunting and not gun building. Bob expresses he wants to buy a store bought gun. Fred tells Bob he is better off skeet shooting then hunting with that fake gun. Fred looks at his gun and Bob's gun and they are identical despite him building his gun. Fred refuses to accept it.
Worst analogy (allegory) ever?
It actually makes a lot of sense. It is not perfect. Just fits the mindset of many MMORPG players and likely developers. Dogmatic rules of how things must be done.
If this guy wants a Legend of Zelda online to play with friends and an online world... why should he be told to play a BR?
I don't think it has anything to do with how it "must" be done.
People are showing up for a certain experience.
Sure, there could be an mmorpg without leveling. And for those people who want that experience, they would show up. But, we've already had people who don't like, for example, Guild Wars 2 as it doesn't give them a sense of progression. So, they don't show up. For those people playing Elder Scrolls Online only to have them implement the "one tamriel" and making it feel like everything they encounter is the same (not really true but people feel it is) then they don't play anymore.
A developer could just make an mmorpg without any progression but since their only examples are mmorpg's with leveling, it's a bit risky. The people investing in these games might not think it's viable.
They could go ahead with a kickstarter or some such thing but so far kickstarted mmorpg's haven't done well.
And once they get it done (assuming they get it done) if it's not a hit then that's just another nail in the coffin for similar games. Even if this game wasn't made well and that contributed more to its failure than the type of game it was.
It sounds to me like you are looking for a more massive version of Minecraft. It could be done but there are definitely people who don't like to build so there needs to be something for them. And if that's raiding or pvp there needs to be enough new content to keep them coming back. I think it's possible but what developer is going to step up to the plate and will they be able to be successful?
Maybe. I believe the genre was trending towards levelless gameplay.
WoW, ESO, GW2 do level scaling and for a reason. Why spend millions on assets that the vast majority don't use after a few weeks? WoW for example has a huge world that is empty. Almost all of the people are in the latest expansion.
You add in how themeparks were being refined with less and less grind it is easy to see how they could become MMO Action Adventure.
When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.
So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.
Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal. Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.
Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.
The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want.
That is like saying:
You: "I like golf, but, what if as opposed to clubs, we hit a ball with a big Stick, and then Run in a Huge Square like pattern while other people try to find the ball before I finish my run, why can't Golf be like that?"
Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"
You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"
Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.
You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.
Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
It doesn't make sense because you have no clue of the concept. Or you do but have such disdain that your being obtuse. Doesn't matter.
MMO are simply genres that have been translated into online games with online worlds. Could very FPS like Planetside. It could even be a hypothetical Action Adventure like Legend of Zelda online. There are no hard rules to what can and can't be done. A BR has no world and is no where near what the OP is about. You don't have dungeons, raids or anything like that. You sound dumb.
What you are describing doesn't fit at all. OP is saying they want basketball without the 3 point shot. You are saying play I should play football because getting two points from a safety is the same as scoring a basket. Just sounds dumb.
Ah, the personal insults..
Well, thanks. I'd return with some snide comment.. but I am a better person than that.
State example of how MMORPG have trended towards being grindy
That is not how it works.
You make those claims, you back them up with evidence and/or some rational argument.
Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW. Evidence: I played both. I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW. Evidence: I played both. I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
...my bad. I forgot I am asking you something you can't provide.
Comments
When people talk about games with No Grind, No Leveling, Everyone Equal, and it's all based on skill, this invariably falls to PvP games, as PvE games with the limits of AI, at best can set a bar, and everyone who can pass that bar keeps... Well.. I am going to say progressing, but it's not really the right word, as zero grind, zero leveling, means zero progress, but, moving on.
So, when someone lists a criteria like "Zero Grind" and says this includes any kind of grind, no grind at all, and no leveling, no power ups, everyone starts even.. everyone stays even.
Well, one of the most well known kinds of games out there, that provide that, as well as a huge player base to work from, is a Battle Royal. Think of this way, in a BR game, you will always jump into a zone with 100 other people, and a million people could be playing that game, and truth is, you could end up facing thousands upon thousands of different opponents, as the 100 people you played with last time, may not be at all similar to the 100 people you played against this time.
Battle Royal Games also allow for team based play, and they even level that one out as well, where you can play in Arenas that have 2 person teams, and everyone there is a two person team, up to 6 person teams (Fortnight provides this at least) so you can play with your friends very easy in these games.
The main reason why these "Other" games get suggested, is because they already meet all the criteria that some people express they want. You give out a list of what you are looking for, and if that looks like it tags a Battle Royal game, well, it should be no surprise that people are going to suggest you play that kind of game, as it already exists, and meets all the criterias you have expressed you want.
That is like saying:
Everyone Else: "Because That would be Baseball"
You: "But I don't want to play Baseball, I want to play Golf, but, without the clubs and little balls and trying to get it into the cup, I want to play Golf where I get to hit the ball with a big stick and have other people try to find the ball and tag me, before I finish my victory lap.!"
Everyone else: It really sounds like you want to play Baseball.
You: Why does everyone tell me to play baseball.. No.. No.. No.. I want to play Golf.
Starting to see how this looks from the other side of things?
If you change the formula/design then you get a different group of people. What happens to the first group of people? They get together, make a game they want then other people come in and say "we don't like it, make it so 'we' like it."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All jumbled together and random, just like the gameplay mechanics.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO are simply genres that have been translated into online games with online worlds. Could very FPS like Planetside. It could even be a hypothetical Action Adventure like Legend of Zelda online. There are no hard rules to what can and can't be done. A BR has no world and is no where near what the OP is about. You don't have dungeons, raids or anything like that. You sound dumb.
What you are describing doesn't fit at all. OP is saying they want basketball without the 3 point shot. You are saying play I should play football because getting two points from a safety is the same as scoring a basket. Just sounds dumb.
If this guy wants a Legend of Zelda online to play with friends and an online world... why should he be told to play a BR?
Well, thanks. I'd return with some snide comment.. but I am a better person than that.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I want to increase in power, even if it is incrementally, the more time and effort I dedicate to the game. Looking "cool" is nonsense...
RPG's are always about improving, growing from an inexperienced neophyte to an experienced adventurer. Take that away, and playing the game is meaningless... other than socialization.
Most players that play are max level or have max level main characters. We do endgame gameplay, which in Gw2 is everything. Take away the 1-80 level grind and the game pretty much stay the exact same.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Stop banging your head against the wall trying to discuss anything with him.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
People are showing up for a certain experience.
Sure, there could be an mmorpg without leveling. And for those people who want that experience, they would show up. But, we've already had people who don't like, for example, Guild Wars 2 as it doesn't give them a sense of progression. So, they don't show up. For those people playing Elder Scrolls Online only to have them implement the "one tamriel" and making it feel like everything they encounter is the same (not really true but people feel it is) then they don't play anymore.
A developer could just make an mmorpg without any progression but since their only examples are mmorpg's with leveling, it's a bit risky. The people investing in these games might not think it's viable.
They could go ahead with a kickstarter or some such thing but so far kickstarted mmorpg's haven't done well.
And once they get it done (assuming they get it done) if it's not a hit then that's just another nail in the coffin for similar games. Even if this game wasn't made well and that contributed more to its failure than the type of game it was.
It sounds to me like you are looking for a more massive version of Minecraft. It could be done but there are definitely people who don't like to build so there needs to be something for them. And if that's raiding or pvp there needs to be enough new content to keep them coming back. I think it's possible but what developer is going to step up to the plate and will they be able to be successful?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Any developer has to decide which demographic they are going to develop to. I'm sure Blizzard is trying to grab as many people as possible.
A lot of developers are.
As far as "old grandfathered" that might be but it doesn't mean it's "bad" just an early way of doing things.
It's a system that is based off of old pen and paper games. Guess what? People like that. Just like they still watch movies from the 30's with those movie conventions. Most people wouldn't like old movies from the 30's as there is a lot of "space" in them, how they move along, the shots, ways of speaking.
but there are people who like them, have clubs that support them.
Just like there are people who love the early games and how they worked. It's up to the developers to decide who they want to chase. Since they would like more money than less money they try to lessen perceived grind. For some that's better and for others they don't think it's bad so they don't like the quick leveling.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My personal belief is that there are less people at Max level than leveling. At Max I think most roll alts.
RPGs were always niche
MMOs were always niche
A few games broke those barriers
Instead of recognizing that those few games are the outliers we continue to argue and debate as though there is one single answer to the right type of game that will appeal to everyone.
If there was a formula for fun then things would be so much easier...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
WoW, ESO, GW2 do level scaling and for a reason. Why spend millions on assets that the vast majority don't use after a few weeks? WoW for example has a huge world that is empty. Almost all of the people are in the latest expansion.
You add in how themeparks were being refined with less and less grind it is easy to see how they could become MMO Action Adventure.
You make those claims, you back them up with evidence and/or some rational argument.
Now put up or troll elsewhere.