Well maybe part of the downfall of MMORPGS is the homogenization of the MMO term in general. Where everything is a MMO now.
If I go on steam under MMORPG the first thing I see is Destiny 2. That's not a MMORPG.
If I look at the MMORPG topic on youtube the first game I see is Oxygen Not Included. That's not a MMORPG.
If I go to any site like MMO-byte etc half the games on the list are not actual MMOs.
If I watch a video about the downfall of MMORPGs 2 minutes in I see Anthem.
I think that definitely contributes to the downfall of MMORPGs. You're certainly playing your part in the "us" category.
Now see... THAT'S adding to the discussion. Outright dismissing an idea because you don't like that what some people consider MMOs are not what YOU consider MMOs, is part of the problem as well. If you'd watched the rest of the video, you would have gotten to the part where I stated that "What an MMO even IS isn't clearly defined anymore" and that "we need to create a new defintion" of MMOs again.
But instead, you'd rather just dismiss it outright because of some footage of a game that the devs totally messed up... on a portion where I'm talking about how devs mess up games. It was just footage. The important part of the video... the WORDS being said... still apply.
You are certainly playing your part in the "us" category as well sir.
It is clearly defined what a freaking MMORPG is, here let me you school you:
I would like to hear how in the world you honestly tell yourself that MMORPG applies to any game with more than a small number of players in the same world? Its not not at all related to a MMORPG in any fashion. You just want to sit here constantly and bash your own readers for pointing out YOU are wrong and misinformed. Before you start flinging poo like a monkey, maybe you should do your research first, all you are doing is making yourself look like an ass publicly, but that is the trend nowadays for edge lords such as yourself, isn't it?
Well maybe part of the downfall of MMORPGS is the homogenization of the MMO term in general. Where everything is a MMO now.
If I go on steam under MMORPG the first thing I see is Destiny 2. That's not a MMORPG.
If I look at the MMORPG topic on youtube the first game I see is Oxygen Not Included. That's not a MMORPG.
If I go to any site like MMO-byte etc half the games on the list are not actual MMOs.
If I watch a video about the downfall of MMORPGs 2 minutes in I see Anthem.
I think that definitely contributes to the downfall of MMORPGs. You're certainly playing your part in the "us" category.
Now see... THAT'S adding to the discussion. Outright dismissing an idea because you don't like that what some people consider MMOs are not what YOU consider MMOs, is part of the problem as well. If you'd watched the rest of the video, you would have gotten to the part where I stated that "What an MMO even IS isn't clearly defined anymore" and that "we need to create a new defintion" of MMOs again.
But instead, you'd rather just dismiss it outright because of some footage of a game that the devs totally messed up... on a portion where I'm talking about how devs mess up games. It was just footage. The important part of the video... the WORDS being said... still apply.
You are certainly playing your part in the "us" category as well sir.
It is clearly defined what a freaking MMORPG is, here let me you school you:
I would like to hear how in the world you honestly tell yourself that MMORPG applies to any game with more than a small number of players in the same world? Its not not at all related to a MMORPG in any fashion. You just want to sit here constantly and bash your own readers for pointing out YOU are wrong and misinformed. Before you start flinging poo like a monkey, maybe you should do your research first, all you are doing is making yourself look like an ass publicly, but that is the trend nowadays for edge lords such as yourself, isn't it?
I got more clicks, likes, subs, follows, etc...
Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia? That right there tells you that it's all up for grabs.
If the people who are making mmorpg's are the one's changing the definition then that's pretty much it. Take it up with them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well maybe part of the downfall of MMORPGS is the homogenization of the MMO term in general. Where everything is a MMO now.
If I go on steam under MMORPG the first thing I see is Destiny 2. That's not a MMORPG.
If I look at the MMORPG topic on youtube the first game I see is Oxygen Not Included. That's not a MMORPG.
If I go to any site like MMO-byte etc half the games on the list are not actual MMOs.
If I watch a video about the downfall of MMORPGs 2 minutes in I see Anthem.
I think that definitely contributes to the downfall of MMORPGs. You're certainly playing your part in the "us" category.
Now see... THAT'S adding to the discussion. Outright dismissing an idea because you don't like that what some people consider MMOs are not what YOU consider MMOs, is part of the problem as well. If you'd watched the rest of the video, you would have gotten to the part where I stated that "What an MMO even IS isn't clearly defined anymore" and that "we need to create a new defintion" of MMOs again.
But instead, you'd rather just dismiss it outright because of some footage of a game that the devs totally messed up... on a portion where I'm talking about how devs mess up games. It was just footage. The important part of the video... the WORDS being said... still apply.
You are certainly playing your part in the "us" category as well sir.
Ok I watched the whole video it's pretty good. I like that you share a lot of gameplay with characters that you clearly are playing. You make some good points.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I would like to hear how in the world you honestly tell yourself that MMORPG applies to any game with more than a small number of players in the same world? Its not not at all related to a MMORPG in any fashion. You just want to sit here constantly and bash your own readers for pointing out YOU are wrong and misinformed. Before you start flinging poo like a monkey, maybe you should do your research first, all you are doing is making yourself look like an ass publicly, but that is the trend nowadays for edge lords such as yourself, isn't it?
I got more clicks, likes, subs, follows, etc...
It's not clearly defined. Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia are not going to change my mind on that. What's an MMORPG to you? Honestly, MOST "actual" MMORPGs nowadays aren't what I even consider MMORPGs. They're virtual chatrooms where you wait on group queues using your dungeon finder. There's no requirement to interact with the hundreds of people around you... You only "interact" with the 3 to 4 people you're grouped with (silently most of the time) and then move on the next dungeon/raid.
There's no social aspect. There's no cooperation. There's nothing there. Those THOUSANDS of other people might as well not even be there. Removing them would change almost nothing.
I would like to hear how in the world you honestly tell yourself that MMORPG applies to any game with more than a small number of players in the same world? Its not not at all related to a MMORPG in any fashion. You just want to sit here constantly and bash your own readers for pointing out YOU are wrong and misinformed. Before you start flinging poo like a monkey, maybe you should do your research first, all you are doing is making yourself look like an ass publicly, but that is the trend nowadays for edge lords such as yourself, isn't it?
I got more clicks, likes, subs, follows, etc...
It's not clearly defined. Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia are not going to change my mind on that. What's an MMORPG to you? Honestly, MOST "actual" MMORPGs nowadays aren't what I even consider MMORPGs. They're virtual chatrooms where you wait on group queues using your dungeon finder. There's no requirement to interact with the hundreds of people around you... You only "interact" with the 3 to 4 people you're grouped with (silently most of the time) and then move on the next dungeon/raid.
I'd say that's a big part of the downfall.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
This was a brave video to make, and I personally thank you for your insights. It's almost like you are the Head of the Election Commission and tweeted out "I wouldn't have thought I needed to say this...."
Kudo's for making great videos.
Now, if it wouldn't be TOO much trouble, would it be useful to list the games you spotlighted? I got all but two.
I would like to hear how in the world you honestly tell yourself that MMORPG applies to any game with more than a small number of players in the same world? Its not not at all related to a MMORPG in any fashion. You just want to sit here constantly and bash your own readers for pointing out YOU are wrong and misinformed. Before you start flinging poo like a monkey, maybe you should do your research first, all you are doing is making yourself look like an ass publicly, but that is the trend nowadays for edge lords such as yourself, isn't it?
I got more clicks, likes, subs, follows, etc...
It's not clearly defined. Urban Dictionary and Wikipedia are not going to change my mind on that. What's an MMORPG to you? Honestly, MOST "actual" MMORPGs nowadays aren't what I even consider MMORPGs. They're virtual chatrooms where you wait on group queues using your dungeon finder. There's no requirement to interact with the hundreds of people around you... You only "interact" with the 3 to 4 people you're grouped with (silently most of the time) and then move on the next dungeon/raid.
More and more gamers are low income gamers....skewing the possibility of having subscription models...so the games have to have cash shop options or sink.
Everyone is starting to market/develop with the idea that their main gamers will be low income gamers. That's why.
This is what I call the "leftover gaming." The bare minimum to skate by on because maybe 1% of your gamers will give a single red cent to the game. So you have 99% of the gamers sucking your resources.
Mmorpg's will never truly disappear. They appeal to those who wish to play as a character within a fictitious world, they used to be "virtual worlds", as opposed to just "games".
Role Playing died in MMORPGs during the EQ era, and that faction is only a very small percentage of MMORPG players.
This is why RP servers seem to be the least populated, and why even they are half chock full of people who don't RP at all.
FV in EQ was attractive to people because of the liberal trading policies in its ruleset. Antonia Bayle in EQ2 was chock full of people who didn't RP at all.
FFXIV still has a few RPers, but they're a meme, and there's a stigma around people who RP in that game because of how pervy it can be.
RP in 3D Computer MMORPGs was always niche, and it was never something that most adults took well to, because it's transparently fake, awkward, and just plain creepy in some cases (Manginas, Over-Sexualized characters in Asian MMOs, etc. etc.).
MMOs are always about the loot treadmill/grind, PvP, and raiding. Look at all the "popular" MMORPGs these days. These at least two of out of these three things dominate all of them - and are the main facets that guide content development (ESO, FF14, WoW, etc.).
More and more gamers are low income gamers....skewing the possibility of having subscription models...so the games have to have cash shop options or sink.
Everyone is starting to market/develop with the idea that their main gamers will be low income gamers. That's why.
This is what I call the "leftover gaming." The bare minimum to skate by on because maybe 1% of your gamers will give a single red cent to the game. So you have 99% of the gamers sucking your resources.
I 100% disagree. We in fact have absurdly priced lockboxes, copy and paste "new" models and "new" skins being released in nearly every game today for $10-$60 a pop instead of a monthly $14.99 sub fee.
More and more gamers are low income gamers....skewing the possibility of having subscription models...so the games have to have cash shop options or sink.
Everyone is starting to market/develop with the idea that their main gamers will be low income gamers. That's why.
This is what I call the "leftover gaming." The bare minimum to skate by on because maybe 1% of your gamers will give a single red cent to the game. So you have 99% of the gamers sucking your resources.
I 100% disagree. We in fact have absurdly priced lockboxes, copy and paste "new" models and "new" skins being released in nearly every game today for $10-$60 a pop instead of a monthly $14.99 sub fee.
Exactly. Gotta grab that money quick and fast. Because 99% of the gamers won't pay.
More and more gamers are low income gamers....skewing the possibility of having subscription models...so the games have to have cash shop options or sink.
Everyone is starting to market/develop with the idea that their main gamers will be low income gamers. That's why.
This is what I call the "leftover gaming." The bare minimum to skate by on because maybe 1% of your gamers will give a single red cent to the game. So you have 99% of the gamers sucking your resources.
I 100% disagree. We in fact have absurdly priced lockboxes, copy and paste "new" models and "new" skins being released in nearly every game today for $10-$60 a pop instead of a monthly $14.99 sub fee.
Exactly. Gotta grab that money quick and fast. Because 99% of the gamers won't pay.
No it means people have more flexible spending and instead of subbing will drop 5K USD on digital spaceship models.
I keep thinking of what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about the difficulty of defining "pornography," which may just as well apply to defining mmorpgs:
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it ...."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I see MMo's morphing into open world Co-op RPG's in the next decade....this generation simply doesn't want massively..it's not like it was back in the days of EQ, when the vast majority was social...these days nearly everyone has some form of anxiety disorder...if they do play MMO's they play them as single player games.
Nah. People just were a lot more accommodating in those smaller communities back then.
People don't have anxiety disorder, people are just awful to each other on a level not seen in MMORPGs back in the 1999-2002 period.
EQ did start getting back around the 2003-2004 period, though, but this is not surprising as WoW/EQ2 released and brought in a ton of new players to the genre. Many of those players went to the newer games, anyways.
Blaming everyone for having an anxiety disorder is laughable. People avoid a lot of the social aspects for a reason, and it isn't because they "have a personal problem." It's cause the communities are more toxic than ever.
F2P has definitely exacerbated that, as the paywall gated out a lot of trolls that otherwise would not spend their money simply to make trouble or be awful to other people. But MAU numbers are too important, especially with a cash shop funded game... so this is just what we have to deal with.
Personally, I don't think I'll ever get invested in another MMORPG again. Other genres are getting too good, these days, to bother.
It has become really popular to blame players on things that aren't their fault, its not true no matter how often people suggest it. Players aren't responsible for stagnation of a genre anymore than doctors are responsible for someone dying of old age.
Stagnation of a genre is caused by saturation and the failure to innovate within said genre. The downfall of mmorpg happened because other genres copied aspects of what mmorpg's had and improved on it.
Moba improved on instanced PvP, survival sandbox had better crafting, co-op games had more interesting group gameplay, online PvE shooters had more interactive combat.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
More and more gamers are low income gamers....skewing the possibility of having subscription models...so the games have to have cash shop options or sink.
Everyone is starting to market/develop with the idea that their main gamers will be low income gamers. That's why.
This is what I call the "leftover gaming." The bare minimum to skate by on because maybe 1% of your gamers will give a single red cent to the game. So you have 99% of the gamers sucking your resources.
I 100% disagree. We in fact have absurdly priced lockboxes, copy and paste "new" models and "new" skins being released in nearly every game today for $10-$60 a pop instead of a monthly $14.99 sub fee.
Exactly. Gotta grab that money quick and fast. Because 99% of the gamers won't pay.
No it means people have more flexible spending and instead of subbing will drop 5K USD on digital spaceship models.
You realize you're just re-iterating what I said right? It's still the 1% gamer paying the way for the 99% poor people.
More and more gamers are low income gamers....skewing the possibility of having subscription models...so the games have to have cash shop options or sink.
Everyone is starting to market/develop with the idea that their main gamers will be low income gamers. That's why.
This is what I call the "leftover gaming." The bare minimum to skate by on because maybe 1% of your gamers will give a single red cent to the game. So you have 99% of the gamers sucking your resources.
I 100% disagree. We in fact have absurdly priced lockboxes, copy and paste "new" models and "new" skins being released in nearly every game today for $10-$60 a pop instead of a monthly $14.99 sub fee.
Exactly. Gotta grab that money quick and fast. Because 99% of the gamers won't pay.
No it means people have more flexible spending and instead of subbing will drop 5K USD on digital spaceship models.
You realize you're just re-iterating what I said right? It's still the 1% gamer paying the way for the 99% poor people.
Except the rest are not 99% poor, nor is the subscription model dead - see WoW and Classic Wow. Subscribing is a time and money commitment to a game - buying the $60 new shiny of the month in game XYZ is a social status symbol while moving onto next months new shiny of the month.
Edit:
LotRO has classic servers as well now which requires a subscription.
It has become really popular to blame players on things that aren't their fault, its not true no matter how often people suggest it. Players aren't responsible for stagnation of a genre anymore than doctors are responsible for someone dying of old age.
Stagnation of a genre is caused by saturation and the failure to innovate within said genre. The downfall of mmorpg happened because other genres copied aspects of what mmorpg's had and improved on it.
Moba improved on instanced PvP, survival sandbox had better crafting, co-op games had more interesting group gameplay, online PvE shooters had more interactive combat.
Well, let's see ...
Players buy online goods and even though players "say" they are against farmers/online selling, the evidence is that a lot of players spend a lot of money buying virtual goods.
Developers see this and know that people are willing to pay for virtual goods so they accommodate it.
World of Warcraft does away with game play elements that some find tedious, becomes a phenomenon because of its accessibility so developers see this and realize that a large amount of people want accessibility/ease of play and they develop accordingly
etc etc
As Hive said, developers follow the players. No innovation? You go back that innovative mmorpg and if it launches and I think it's something I want to play then I'll play it. Most people would.
but if it's something they don't want to play then you've just backed something that's going to tank. It's easy for people to say that it's a lack of innovation but not many people are willing to put real money where their mouths are.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I do agree that various factors have contributed to the downfall but it is different for different individuals.
For instance I am old and slow so I find any game that requires me to dodge, block and so on has me at a disadvantage and I just don't even bother to try them when I see the combat is action oriented. So those MMORPGs have indeed become unattractive to me. OTOH they definitely appeal to others and have brought people who enjoy that into the genre. So things could have balanced out.
Many games now introduce PvP without giving me a choice on whether I want to engage in that activity. Again something I try to avoid but it will attract others.
While some of the things you mentioned definitely destroyed some aspects of this genre and contributed to its downfall there are changes that have enhanced it for others. The main issue is the costs of making an MMORPG and the possibility that the game will fail is definitely a deciding factor and one that perhaps among all others is paramount and decisive in its decline.
While some of the things you mentioned definitely destroyed some aspects of this genre and contributed to its downfall there are changes that have enhanced it for others. The main issue is the costs of making an MMORPG and the possibility that the game will fail is definitely a deciding factor and one that perhaps among all others is paramount and decisive in its decline.
Factor in with what you have said about costs, then during the same time period things like open world survival/BR/Mobile/STEAM were all taking off and showing way more earning potential at the time, and still do today. Hmm, I would be opening the coffers to STEAM and Mobile as well.
Comments
If the people who are making mmorpg's are the one's changing the definition then that's pretty much it. Take it up with them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
To add, why no revolutionary new ideas? Our community is too damn cynical. We will kill that idea/mmorpg in a single cynical thread.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/View more silliness at http://www.youtube.com/thehiveleader
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Kudo's for making great videos.
Now, if it wouldn't be TOO much trouble, would it be useful to list the games you spotlighted? I got all but two.
Thanks, again!
View more silliness at http://www.youtube.com/thehiveleader
I'm terribly sorry to inform you of an unfortunate occurrence: That ship has sailed.
This is why RP servers seem to be the least populated, and why even they are half chock full of people who don't RP at all.
FV in EQ was attractive to people because of the liberal trading policies in its ruleset.
Antonia Bayle in EQ2 was chock full of people who didn't RP at all.
FFXIV still has a few RPers, but they're a meme, and there's a stigma around people who RP in that game because of how pervy it can be.
RP in 3D Computer MMORPGs was always niche, and it was never something that most adults took well to, because it's transparently fake, awkward, and just plain creepy in some cases (Manginas, Over-Sexualized characters in Asian MMOs, etc. etc.).
MMOs are always about the loot treadmill/grind, PvP, and raiding. Look at all the "popular" MMORPGs these days. These at least two of out of these three things dominate all of them - and are the main facets that guide content development (ESO, FF14, WoW, etc.).
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/View more silliness at http://www.youtube.com/thehiveleader
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it ...."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Nah. People just were a lot more accommodating in those smaller communities back then.
People don't have anxiety disorder, people are just awful to each other on a level not seen in MMORPGs back in the 1999-2002 period.
EQ did start getting back around the 2003-2004 period, though, but this is not surprising as WoW/EQ2 released and brought in a ton of new players to the genre. Many of those players went to the newer games, anyways.
Blaming everyone for having an anxiety disorder is laughable. People avoid a lot of the social aspects for a reason, and it isn't because they "have a personal problem." It's cause the communities are more toxic than ever.
F2P has definitely exacerbated that, as the paywall gated out a lot of trolls that otherwise would not spend their money simply to make trouble or be awful to other people. But MAU numbers are too important, especially with a cash shop funded game... so this is just what we have to deal with.
Personally, I don't think I'll ever get invested in another MMORPG again. Other genres are getting too good, these days, to bother.
Stagnation of a genre is caused by saturation and the failure to innovate within said genre. The downfall of mmorpg happened because other genres copied aspects of what mmorpg's had and improved on it.
Moba improved on instanced PvP, survival sandbox had better crafting, co-op games had more interesting group gameplay, online PvE shooters had more interactive combat.
Players buy online goods and even though players "say" they are against farmers/online selling, the evidence is that a lot of players spend a lot of money buying virtual goods.
Developers see this and know that people are willing to pay for virtual goods so they accommodate it.
World of Warcraft does away with game play elements that some find tedious, becomes a phenomenon because of its accessibility so developers see this and realize that a large amount of people want accessibility/ease of play and they develop accordingly
etc etc
As Hive said, developers follow the players. No innovation? You go back that innovative mmorpg and if it launches and I think it's something I want to play then I'll play it. Most people would.
but if it's something they don't want to play then you've just backed something that's going to tank. It's easy for people to say that it's a lack of innovation but not many people are willing to put real money where their mouths are.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
FFXIV: hold my saki
For instance I am old and slow so I find any game that requires me to dodge, block and so on has me at a disadvantage and I just don't even bother to try them when I see the combat is action oriented. So those MMORPGs have indeed become unattractive to me. OTOH they definitely appeal to others and have brought people who enjoy that into the genre. So things could have balanced out.
Many games now introduce PvP without giving me a choice on whether I want to engage in that activity. Again something I try to avoid but it will attract others.
While some of the things you mentioned definitely destroyed some aspects of this genre and contributed to its downfall there are changes that have enhanced it for others. The main issue is the costs of making an MMORPG and the possibility that the game will fail is definitely a deciding factor and one that perhaps among all others is paramount and decisive in its decline.