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Leveling in MMORPGs
Nibiru1704
Member CommonPosts: 9
Leveling as we know it is the niche concept. I would even argue outdated. Many problems come from such a system, a huge amount of wasted resources (money, time, manpower) is one of them. Creating zones, items, monsters, all that is basically a one-time consuming content - once you outgear or outlevel the zone you never go back. A developer's nightmare.
Some MMORPGs, usually older ones, have slow leveling and it kinda helps in having a bit more lasting experience in those zones you will eventually outlevel and yet again not come back to them. But it is still not really healthy for a game.
Another problem with leveling is everlasting powercreep. Players will acquire levels and items, and then they will starve for more of those. So updates will come, expansions and patches, and new level and new gear tier will come. And it is a never-ending cycle. Oh, I know some people love that concept, it is usually an older audience, the veterans of MMORPGs. I loved them when I was younger until I realized how broken that system actually is, sadly.
But you are a niche audience. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The thing is both you and others do not really enjoy today's MMORPGs. You need MMORPG for you - the one with a slow leveling, done right, I think something like upcoming Pantheon is a good concept for you. And others need no levels at all.
You see, I freaking hate playing MMORPG as the person who is late to the party. Do you know why? MMORPGs are made braindead, they are freaking easy, there is no danger of dying. And do you know what happens to them once they are in their 2nd or 3rd expansion? Oh yes, you know, they are made even easier - so much goddamn content is being nerfed - leveling made faster, item drops and RNG being much better, games basically give you everything with dailies and quests - just so you can catch up to the current level 100+ players.
And I dislike it so much. Easy MMORPGs being made easier. So why should I even play them? Look at all the MMORPGs, even those good ones. Buy levels. Buy story skip. Have more skills earlier in the game, have those skills buffed. Lower the quests needed to level up, give more experience as a reward. Or even better! Level sync the content! FFXIV, ESO, GW2, WoW - all of these MMORPGs basically say - fuck leveling! Not even developers like them.
That dungeon that was hard? It is piss easy 2 levels after. All the content so much nerfed.
PvP in MMORPGs? What kind of a joke that is? There will never be good PvP experience in a powercreep meta where everything is unbalanced before the fight even started. And don't let me start talking about how RNG passive stats are freaking disaster that should never ever be a part of the MMORPGs with the Open World PvP - dodge, evade, resist, evade, parry. Just because you have X more levels I can't even hit you? What kind of bullshit system that is? There is no player skill until the high-end PvP where everyone basically acquired levels and have more-or-less same gear stats. No wonder many players do not enjoy playing PvP in MMORPGs even if I love it. Actually, PvP games are one of the most popular games out there. But PvP in MMORPG is despised by most of the player base, I don't know why, probably because that PvP has no skill requirement? Nothing can be done against a player that has put more time or money into their class. Sometimes the whole group of players can't touch such a person. I guess the true carebears enjoy such PvP, yes, I call you a carebear cuz it is your gear and levels that carry you, you yourself can be a totally unskilled player and others can't do a thing to you.
I know it is hard to accept what I am saying, but levels are a bullshit concept. There are so many ways you can go with progression, but we are brainwashed into thinking that levels and gears are the only way and that nothing else is satisfying enough and worthy of being called MMORPG. We are so close-minded that we will defend this concept for decades and never letting MMORPGs evolve to their true potential. An everlasting World to live in. MMORPGs of today are not that, and they never will be when 95% of the content is useless once you outlevel it. That is a freaking huge amount of the world.
MMORPGs will always be braindead with the leveling system. You can lie to yourself that it would be a harder experience if you make it so you can't fight more than 1-2 mobs at the same time, but you are just bullshitting yourself cuz it is only artificial stats that are the reason. Not monsters' intelligence. Not mechanics. Only stats. And those same mobs will be of no danger to you in a few more levels. Where is the hard gameplay in that system? Where? It is still the braindead system, and always will be.
Veterans say players of today are lazy, entitled people, that want everything now and everything handled to them. No, they are not. That is a lie you say to yourself. Those same people see the same issues I see with MMORPGs. You can't play with your friend who is at X level. You can't have a fun experience with PvP. Your quests are all made just to get you from point A to point B as a way to guide you to the new leveling zone - those same quests can even be interesting, I won't argue that, but let's not pretend they are there for any other reason. At least FFXIV fully embraced it and made a well-made story to dive into.
Players do not want to waste months or years of time just to be able to finally play with others. That is common sense. Not them being lazy.
I mean, just look at this: https://eu.4game.com/patchnotes/lineage2/176/
These are MMORPGs. Nerf all the content once new expansion and patch arrive. Or you want me to play for 2 years before I catch up to my friend? Will I ever be able to play with my friend? What if a new patch with new levels and gear comes in meantime? Slow leveling is not a fix to make MMORPGs a harder and worthwhile experience. They are not.
Comments
I'm not going to waste my time... saying what has been said time and again in a thousand other posts before because that horse is dead,
Dead dead dead.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Someone comes to the forum and basically says "I don't like something and you all are niche and I hate it and I'm right ..."
And there needs to be a real reply?
Fine. Leveling is its own thing. It's a way of creating a character though the journey of the game. This is enjoyable for many people. Is this niche? Certainly wouldn't be a bad thing ...
Yes, people still enjoy it and people still buy games with it "and actually enjoy them" therefore it's most likely not outdated.
The issue is that people who don't like leveling buy games that have it and they scream and cry because they don't like it. Essentially they did this to themselves (typical) and they want to inflict themselves on everyone and tell them how their preferences are "right" and things need to change.
The only thing that needs to change is that they need to start buying games that cater to their preferences.
And if there aren't many games that cater to their preferences? Then I would offer that it's not really an outdated way of designing a game.
A person not liking something doesn't make them the end all and be all opinion.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
There are also people who don't like Guild Wars 2 precisely because of that same reason.
Yet, there are people who like Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2. All that says is that there are people who want something different and "perhaps" there could be more games like them.
Perhaps.
In a perfect world "sure." But in a perfect world game companies would be able to experiment with different systems and not have to worry about going out of business if they create a game that doesn't resonate with their intended audience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you think that MMORPGs should be all about leveling and gear tiers, then no wonder we get so many crap MMORPGs because plenty of them do exactly just that. They are an experience gain simulators. MMORPGs should be about online multiplayer game.
I am not here talking about not having progression. It is just that levels and gear tiers are the worst way to go of their nature to power creep 95% of the content in the game. Do you really enjoy that? I don't. I want to play all 100% of the content.
As far as mmorpg's being "all about leveling," no, I don't believe they are all about leveling. But I'm ok with a game like Lineage 2 being a game like Lineage 2. Or a game like Guild wars 2 being like guild wars 2. And others are as well.
MMORPG's can be about anything the developers want them to be. If there is an audience for them then they will continue on.
There are people who still play Lineage 2 and love it so I'd argue that anyone not liking that type of game wouldn't be playing it.
If I had my druthers, there would be a reasonably high but definite level cap and then a wider more horizontal progression to the game. Gear would also be a help but not the end all and be all.
Then again, "my" preferences aren't shared by everyone and that's ok. I'm still more than happy to play games that I enjoy. Whether they have long leveling or not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Though, I find it hard to understand why levels are so popular. The progression can be that you need to acquire a weapon upgrade that enchants your weapon to deal fire damage so you can finally be able to fight ice monsters to progress into a zone after them. Or acquiring armor that negates burning damage over time so you can be able to pass through mountain filled with lava.
Or using a different kind of tactics to be able to reach gathering node with a rare material so you can build a stronger lasting ship to be able to finally reach an island you saw but never could have reached with weaker ships.
All of that progression, but still feeling a need to be careful in every zone and prepare yourself to survive in it.
I don't understand the enjoyment never to play and experience zones again at their full beauty of preparing yourself for the encounter - because you out leveled the content and now you 1-shot everything in sight.
However.....it's hard to replace. See, it's not just leveling that is the problem it's any form of ongoing character progression that increases the power of characters. So it's not leveling that is the problem it's character progression that is the problem. But character progression is the "hook" that keeps people playing. It's what MMOs are built around. So in order to replace it someone would have to completely rethink what a MMO is.
Ok and here is the real sticking point. Doing something different would be difficult and risky. I actually believe it would be possible to create a good MMO that doesn't have endless character progression or even very much character progression. But I also believe that nobody in the industry will ever attempt it. Or at least not in my lifetime.
I'm never for leaving an area permanently. That's a, in my opinion, bad decision by developers. Then again, they are creating a "game" and not so much "a world."
My thought is that the group of wolves at level 1 should be terror inducing and that same group at high level should be still be a concern.
I'm also for mixing levels of creatures for all zones. Not just moving outward from a starting point gives you harder and harder enemies. Some won't like that because they don't want to be level 5 and be chased by a level 20 "whatever." I however find that fun.
Just like in Lineage 2 when I was in the Sea of Spores but had to be mindful of Orfen.
as far as not understanding levels, what's to understand? People like them becuase it's an opportunity to build on their character. People do enjoy having less of a struggle as they progress so that's definitely a carrot.
The challenge is for developers to maintain progression without discarding their world and still maintain some level of challenge. That's why I'm ok with a high but hard level cap with a wider Horizontal leveling experience as part of it.
I'm also ok with characters reaching "an end." as far as progression and then the player can decide to do an alt or to take that character and actually "do" something. Not just follow a chain of quests but actulally "do" something. If that's forming an alliance and taking over areas or creating a merchant empire, they should be "doing" something meaningful in the game.
Not just standing in the square showing off the raid gear they got.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
so lvl 1 players without the slightest idea what to do don't enter raids.
and if it's suuuuuch a niche concept... what are those many mmos called without leveling again?
and quite frankly. naming pantheon here... that's the mmo where the boss left twice with the gathered money, ait?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
If you no longer like progression in a game then you no longer like RPGs and that's fine. Time to move on to any of the other games that de-emphasize it and you'll be there with the vast majority of the 2019 gaming public.
Shooters, BR and survival games may occasionally have some light RPG blended in but they've never been about that and still aren't. Have fun with those but I think I'll stick with my RPG progression
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Just because leveling is in the game doesn't mean it's the focal point of the experience. You mentioned L2, which has an insane grind, but the experience was more about the clan warfare originally. Leveling was just something you did to get further along and be more viable in PvP as it was largely a PvP game.
There are definitely games that have options of going back in zones, and taking steps to making older content still viable. FFXIV has the fate sync system where you can essentially go do fates in any zone at any level, as well as level syncing to dungeons to still get exp, but do the older dungeons newer players might want to experience. GW2 has the zone level sync, where you can go through and still get exp and items while doing older content.
I don't know if there is a way to make it so you aren't grinding for something, be it levels or gear. What would removing levels do for older zones if you were upgrading your character in another way like gear, would you go back to a zone and just one hit everything the same way? Syncing your level / gear down seems to be the only real solution at the moment, unless you want a game that has no progression whatsoever.
Do you think it would be so horrible that pack of wolves out there are different than others because they have more skills and cuz of that they are more dangerous than those with fewer skills? I guess they should just have more health and evade 40% of your attacks until you reach their level as the mechanic that makes them harder than wolfes 2 zones ago.
Is that what you guys are saying? Levels+gear=progression, everything else is not progression? I got it. I understand. You are completely right in that statement, how foolish of me thinking there are other longterm progressions available, better than levels and gears, and even more lasting that opens more ways to play all the previous and future content.
What he is saying is that your character has to "not have something" so you can earn it later. Whether that's 10 more hitpoints, a boost to endurance or some other skill, it's all applicable.
And your sarcasm (above) nicely matches your first post where you tell us that you don't like leveling therefore it must be outdated and niche. And that we won't like hearing it ...
It seems it's you who doesn't like that your initial assessment isn't necessarily shared, at least in its entirety by some others.
Look, some people like leveling in the "traditional way" and some don't. It's all good. Find games that offer what you want. If you can't find them then I imagine, as I said above, they aren't so "niche" and outdated. If people don't enjoy something they eventually won't buy it.
Also, as far as this "niche" remark, I'm pretty sure there are are an amazing amount of video games as well as tabletop games that have leveling as a key feature. I don't think people are being led to believe anything, developers are just taking what works and "working with it." Would they like to do something different? Maybe. But they also take a risk that people won't like it and won't buy it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I prefer "end game" mechanics over a level grind, but there is no end game without a level grind of some sort, whether it is a stat grind, a gear grind, spell progression grind, etc. What we are really talking about here is how op prefers sandbox games over holy trinity games. Even sandboxes have a progression.
Better and cheaper for investors to put their money on a BR. Especially when interest in PC MMOs is at all time low in the west.
BR has everything a player who wants pvp and hates progression wants: a vast map, everybody is equal, lots of players in it, kill others and get their loot until you win or get killed and looted.
If you only care about instaced PVE, play Path of Exile, much better than any themepark MMO which focuses on end-game instances like WoW and its clones.