Of course Star Wars has always had obvious reference to generic/Nazi fascism, it's just hilarious to me to see such a cut-and-dry example of Godwin's law coming into play in this discussion!
Palpatine certainly does have Hitler-esque rise to power, the prequels make that connection very clear, but as with real-life fascism it's far too easy and simple to blame the man on top, 99.99% of the atrocities are committed by the soldiers and generals on the front lines.
Hux's big speech in TFA was one of the worst parts of that film, it was completely irrelevant to the plot. I mean maybe if the first 6 movies hadn't existed and JJ was trying to force the "bad guys are like Nazis" on us...
That's what made/makes Kylo Ren such a great character TBH - he's a lot more complex than "faceless bad guy in black" which, if we're being this critical, was all Vader was until RotJ.
It's hard to remember/consider that in the context of 30+ years of expanded universe material and an entire trilogy about his tragic rise.
So here I'm going to present some balance.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Of course Star Wars has always had obvious reference to generic/Nazi fascism, it's just hilarious to me to see such a cut-and-dry example of Godwin's law coming into play in this discussion!
Palpatine certainly does have Hitler-esque rise to power, the prequels make that connection very clear, but as with real-life fascism it's far too easy and simple to blame the man on top, 99.99% of the atrocities are committed by the soldiers and generals on the front lines.
Hux's big speech in TFA was one of the worst parts of that film, it was completely irrelevant to the plot. I mean maybe if the first 6 movies hadn't existed and JJ was trying to force the "bad guys are like Nazis" on us...
That's what made/makes Kylo Ren such a great character TBH - he's a lot more complex than "faceless bad guy in black" which, if we're being this critical, was all Vader was until RotJ.
It's hard to remember/consider that in the context of 30+ years of expanded universe material and an entire trilogy about his tragic rise.
So here I'm going to present some balance.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
Midichlorians just pointlessly explain the existing mechanics of the force. TLJ actually changes the mechanics of the force in contradiction to existing knowledge.
That doesn't make the midichlorians good, mind you. It just makes them not as bad.
it's not real. It can be changed. It can be expanded. It's not real. The key words in your post are "existing knowledge."
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Of course Star Wars has always had obvious reference to generic/Nazi fascism, it's just hilarious to me to see such a cut-and-dry example of Godwin's law coming into play in this discussion!
Palpatine certainly does have Hitler-esque rise to power, the prequels make that connection very clear, but as with real-life fascism it's far too easy and simple to blame the man on top, 99.99% of the atrocities are committed by the soldiers and generals on the front lines.
Hux's big speech in TFA was one of the worst parts of that film, it was completely irrelevant to the plot. I mean maybe if the first 6 movies hadn't existed and JJ was trying to force the "bad guys are like Nazis" on us...
That's what made/makes Kylo Ren such a great character TBH - he's a lot more complex than "faceless bad guy in black" which, if we're being this critical, was all Vader was until RotJ.
It's hard to remember/consider that in the context of 30+ years of expanded universe material and an entire trilogy about his tragic rise.
So here I'm going to present some balance.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
Why can't I fault the "character development" for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? What is nuts about it?
Rey doesn't substantially develop (because she was already on top and had little room to grow).
Luke regresses into a completely different person. Though I will admit that the lightsaber chucking scene was legitimately one of the funniest things I've ever seen. A joke with the best possible cliffhanger payoff.
Kylo actually... Kylo's good. I just don't think he works without a guiding hand. He's not smart or tactical, and he has already lost to our protagonist TWICE. He's not intimidating on his own anymore, even if he is compelling to watch.
Of course Star Wars has always had obvious reference to generic/Nazi fascism, it's just hilarious to me to see such a cut-and-dry example of Godwin's law coming into play in this discussion!
Palpatine certainly does have Hitler-esque rise to power, the prequels make that connection very clear, but as with real-life fascism it's far too easy and simple to blame the man on top, 99.99% of the atrocities are committed by the soldiers and generals on the front lines.
Hux's big speech in TFA was one of the worst parts of that film, it was completely irrelevant to the plot. I mean maybe if the first 6 movies hadn't existed and JJ was trying to force the "bad guys are like Nazis" on us...
That's what made/makes Kylo Ren such a great character TBH - he's a lot more complex than "faceless bad guy in black" which, if we're being this critical, was all Vader was until RotJ.
It's hard to remember/consider that in the context of 30+ years of expanded universe material and an entire trilogy about his tragic rise.
So here I'm going to present some balance.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
I'll go on record, even though I know some people didn't like it, I liked the casino planet. I generally enjoy when when movies are not just x going to y going to z but when there are diversions as well as roundabout ways for characters to go.
I also realize I'm probably in the minority there.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course Star Wars has always had obvious reference to generic/Nazi fascism, it's just hilarious to me to see such a cut-and-dry example of Godwin's law coming into play in this discussion!
Palpatine certainly does have Hitler-esque rise to power, the prequels make that connection very clear, but as with real-life fascism it's far too easy and simple to blame the man on top, 99.99% of the atrocities are committed by the soldiers and generals on the front lines.
Hux's big speech in TFA was one of the worst parts of that film, it was completely irrelevant to the plot. I mean maybe if the first 6 movies hadn't existed and JJ was trying to force the "bad guys are like Nazis" on us...
That's what made/makes Kylo Ren such a great character TBH - he's a lot more complex than "faceless bad guy in black" which, if we're being this critical, was all Vader was until RotJ.
It's hard to remember/consider that in the context of 30+ years of expanded universe material and an entire trilogy about his tragic rise.
So here I'm going to present some balance.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
I'll go on record, even though I know some people didn't like it, I liked the casino planet. I generally enjoy when when movies are not just x going to y going to z but when there are diversions as well as roundabout ways for characters to go.
I also realize I'm probably in the minority there.
I feel like that entire arc and the slicer character are really only to further drive home the point that good and evil are not so black and white.
Of course Star Wars has always had obvious reference to generic/Nazi fascism, it's just hilarious to me to see such a cut-and-dry example of Godwin's law coming into play in this discussion!
Palpatine certainly does have Hitler-esque rise to power, the prequels make that connection very clear, but as with real-life fascism it's far too easy and simple to blame the man on top, 99.99% of the atrocities are committed by the soldiers and generals on the front lines.
Hux's big speech in TFA was one of the worst parts of that film, it was completely irrelevant to the plot. I mean maybe if the first 6 movies hadn't existed and JJ was trying to force the "bad guys are like Nazis" on us...
That's what made/makes Kylo Ren such a great character TBH - he's a lot more complex than "faceless bad guy in black" which, if we're being this critical, was all Vader was until RotJ.
It's hard to remember/consider that in the context of 30+ years of expanded universe material and an entire trilogy about his tragic rise.
So here I'm going to present some balance.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
Why can't I fault the "character development" for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? What is nuts about it?
Rey doesn't substantially develop (because she was already on top and had little room to grow).
Luke regresses into a completely different person. Though I will admit that the lightsaber chucking scene was legitimately one of the funniest things I've ever seen. A joke with the best possible cliffhanger payoff.
Kylo actually... Kylo's good. I just don't think he works without a guiding hand. He's not smart or tactical, and he has already lost to our protagonist TWICE. He's not intimidating on his own anymore, even if he is compelling to watch.
"Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong."
Why can't I fault the "character development" for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? What is nuts about it?
Rey doesn't substantially develop (because she was already on top and had little room to grow).
Luke regresses into a completely different person. Though I will admit that the lightsaber chucking scene was legitimately one of the funniest things I've ever seen. A joke with the best possible cliffhanger payoff.
Kylo actually... Kylo's good. I just don't think he works without a guiding hand. He's not smart or tactical, and he has already lost to our protagonist TWICE. He's not intimidating on his own anymore, even if he is compelling to watch.
Luke is the same person just a very old version of that person. I know I'm the same person but also different than my 21 year old self.
You have a character who was a bright eyed/starry eyed kid, who grew into a powerful person who then decides that he needs a different route, that he values different things. That's ok.
There is more than one place that Rey can go. It doesn't have to just be "up."
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1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
The writing is the primary thing that was wrong with TLJ!
The only way you can call it a good movie is if you strip away the actual movie and purely look at the underlying motivation and goal.
In that sense, yes, it was an OK movie - trying to show the end of previous regimes by killing off snoke, destroying a lot of the new order's fleet and virtually wiping out the rebels. It's wiping the slate clean, we certainly didn't see that coming. Showing Kylo and Rey as both being shades of grey, rather than pure light or dark, is also interesting and more representative of real life.
But the actual implementation in the movie was just abysmal.
Snoke is introduced in TFA as the big bad guy, the guiding force of oppression in the galaxy. But, his character is never filled out, we have no clue how he gained control of the Empire and turned it into the New Order. Then, he's killed off with minimal effort. What a waste.
Kylo is introduced as the next Vadar, scary, intimidating and willing to commit attrocities. But then he takes off his mask and starts speaking and that all goes out the window as he's turned into a whiney spoilt brat with confidence issues. He stops being the enemy because he's no longer scary, but he's too old and whiney for me to feel any empathy for him. So, he ends up just being annoying. (This is nothing against the actor himself, I think he does the best he can with the material he was given). TLJ doesn't do anything to dissuade us from this notion, he doesn't progress as a character at all - by the end of the movie he's still a whiney spoilt brat, he's just been given some new things to whine about.
Rey had her issue of parentage built up all through TFA, only to have it ignored and made irrelevant in TLJ. That's a wasted opportunity, making it irrelevant doesn't add anything at all. Then, she heads to find Luke and after minimal training is somehow one of the most powerful jedi ever. It doesn't make sense from a lore point of view.
Po's journey was actually interesting, making the transition from fighter to leader. But, again, terrible writing. Leia is supposed to be an amazing leader, yet for some reason she allows Po to keep making mistakes that costs the lives of her friends. It makes Leia (and the rest of the rebel leadership) look like a bunch of muppets.
The space chase....ugghhh. Somehow ALL the different space ships have the same top speed.....except all the tie fighters you can see flying about that are clearly moving faster. And why didn't some of the new order jump ahead and wait? And then the rebel escape.....the entire new order fleet is bearing down on them, but somehow none of them have their eyes open and sensors trained on the rebels? /facepalm
Finn is just irrelevant to the movie. I felt he was/is the best of the new actors, but Rian decides to make him redundant? Why? I appreciate expanding the SW universe, I liked seeing the casino planet, but from a storytelling point of view it was totally unnecessary and a waste of time.
The escape from the hoth-like planet at the end? The planet is surrounded by the remainder of the New Order fleet (which is like 95% of the fleet as only a few were killed by the suicide attack), the leadership still exists and is functioning, plus they have a big ground force. Yet, despite the massive army, the Millenium Falcon can somehow cruise in, land, load up with rebels and then escape.
What about Leia floating through space? Not only ridiculous, but that was the perfect opportunity to kill off the character given Carrie's actual death. If they'd have done that, it would have had a massive emotional effect and touched all our lives. Instead they just weirded us all out with random, unexplained force usage.
And the force in general. Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want with it, it's a fictional usage. But, escalating it's powers exponentially should really serve a purpose. In TLJ, it doesn't. It doesn't add anything to the movie or the lore, in fact, by ramping up it's powers so quickly and pointlessly it makes previous use of the force seem petty and irrelevant by comparison.
Last but not least, ITS A KIDS FILM!
Yet, the messages it was trying to get across and the methods of delivery are well above the levels of most children. So, Rian failed with his primary audience (kids) and mostly failed with his secondary fans (older SW fans). The only people he seemed to please was some movie critics, but those guys are so far up their own arses that their opinions are worthless to the general public.
TLJ could have been a brilliant film. The general direction and messaging could have worked. But the implementation was so poor, due to Rian, that the film was just mediocre.
Will JJ do better?
JJ's message/story will likely be more basic, but I expect he'll actually be able to deliver it well, pleasing the main audiences rather than just a few critics.
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Snoke is introduced in TFA as the big bad guy, the guiding force of oppression in the galaxy. But, his character is never filled out, we have no clue how he gained control of the Empire and turned it into the New Order. Then, he's killed off with minimal effort. What a waste.
We never see how the Emperor, in the original star wars movies, became emperor or anything of that nature. We are just told "he's the emperor." I seem to remember his demise was beyond easy as well.
Kylo is introduced as the next Vadar, scary, intimidating and willing to commit attrocities. But then he takes off his mask and starts speaking and that all goes out the window as he's turned into a whiney spoilt brat with confidence issues. He stops being the enemy because he's no longer scary, but he's too old and whiney for me to feel any empathy for him.
He's not Vader and that's the issue. He wants to be Vader. He idolizes Vader. But he is very flawed and very human. He's not "whiny" he's a frickin' emotional mess. Maybe because you can't accept that "he is an emotional mess who never had the acceptance from his father that he wanted and looked to it elsewhere but it was never satisfactory" makes you not like him. I think he's a great character. There's a woman here at work who thinks he is, without a doubt 'the best character.'
If you apply the "he is the next Vader" then that is just going to bring issues. He's not. That's the whole point.
Absolutely, more could have and should have been done with Finn.
Part of the problem with the Empire Strikes Back is that it was a middle film. Even at the time people had issues with it. Middle films seem to be a challenge for film makers.
Let's see what happens in a few months with the next one.
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1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
The writing is the primary thing that was wrong with TLJ!
The only way you can call it a good movie is if you strip away the actual movie and purely look at the underlying motivation and goal.
In that sense, yes, it was an OK movie - trying to show the end of previous regimes by killing off snoke, destroying a lot of the new order's fleet and virtually wiping out the rebels. It's wiping the slate clean, we certainly didn't see that coming. Showing Kylo and Rey as both being shades of grey, rather than pure light or dark, is also interesting and more representative of real life.
But the actual implementation in the movie was just abysmal.
Snoke is introduced in TFA as the big bad guy, the guiding force of oppression in the galaxy. But, his character is never filled out, we have no clue how he gained control of the Empire and turned it into the New Order. Then, he's killed off with minimal effort. What a waste.
Kylo is introduced as the next Vadar, scary, intimidating and willing to commit attrocities. But then he takes off his mask and starts speaking and that all goes out the window as he's turned into a whiney spoilt brat with confidence issues. He stops being the enemy because he's no longer scary, but he's too old and whiney for me to feel any empathy for him. So, he ends up just being annoying. (This is nothing against the actor himself, I think he does the best he can with the material he was given). TLJ doesn't do anything to dissuade us from this notion, he doesn't progress as a character at all - by the end of the movie he's still a whiney spoilt brat, he's just been given some new things to whine about.
Rey had her issue of parentage built up all through TFA, only to have it ignored and made irrelevant in TLJ. That's a wasted opportunity, making it irrelevant doesn't add anything at all. Then, she heads to find Luke and after minimal training is somehow one of the most powerful jedi ever. It doesn't make sense from a lore point of view.
Po's journey was actually interesting, making the transition from fighter to leader. But, again, terrible writing. Leia is supposed to be an amazing leader, yet for some reason she allows Po to keep making mistakes that costs the lives of her friends. It makes Leia (and the rest of the rebel leadership) look like a bunch of muppets.
The space chase....ugghhh. Somehow ALL the different space ships have the same top speed.....except all the tie fighters you can see flying about that are clearly moving faster. And why didn't some of the new order jump ahead and wait? And then the rebel escape.....the entire new order fleet is bearing down on them, but somehow none of them have their eyes open and sensors trained on the rebels? /facepalm
Finn is just irrelevant to the movie. I felt he was/is the best of the new actors, but Rian decides to make him redundant? Why? I appreciate expanding the SW universe, I liked seeing the casino planet, but from a storytelling point of view it was totally unnecessary and a waste of time.
The escape from the hoth-like planet at the end? The planet is surrounded by the remainder of the New Order fleet (which is like 95% of the fleet as only a few were killed by the suicide attack), the leadership still exists and is functioning, plus they have a big ground force. Yet, despite the massive army, the Millenium Falcon can somehow cruise in, land, load up with rebels and then escape.
What about Leia floating through space? Not only ridiculous, but that was the perfect opportunity to kill off the character given Carrie's actual death. If they'd have done that, it would have had a massive emotional effect and touched all our lives. Instead they just weirded us all out with random, unexplained force usage.
And the force in general. Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want with it, it's a fictional usage. But, escalating it's powers exponentially should really serve a purpose. In TLJ, it doesn't. It doesn't add anything to the movie or the lore, in fact, by ramping up it's powers so quickly and pointlessly it makes previous use of the force seem petty and irrelevant by comparison.
Last but not least, ITS A KIDS FILM!
Yet, the messages it was trying to get across and the methods of delivery are well above the levels of most children. So, Rian failed with his primary audience (kids) and mostly failed with his secondary fans (older SW fans). The only people he seemed to please was some movie critics, but those guys are so far up their own arses that their opinions are worthless to the general public.
TLJ could have been a brilliant film. The general direction and messaging could have worked. But the implementation was so poor, due to Rian, that the film was just mediocre.
Will JJ do better?
JJ's message/story will likely be more basic, but I expect he'll actually be able to deliver it well, pleasing the main audiences rather than just a few critics.
I could literally write just as much useful/useless knit-picking about every other Star Wars movie, or frankly just about every other movie ever made.
But what's the point?
Well, maybe not Rogue One - outside of the Portgula nonsense that move was pretty much 100% perfect.
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
Man you just don't get it. Say what you want about TLJ with the slow "chase" and the casino planet and what happens to Snoke... sure. I can at least understand those criticisms.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
The writing is the primary thing that was wrong with TLJ!
The only way you can call it a good movie is if you strip away the actual movie and purely look at the underlying motivation and goal.
In that sense, yes, it was an OK movie - trying to show the end of previous regimes by killing off snoke, destroying a lot of the new order's fleet and virtually wiping out the rebels. It's wiping the slate clean, we certainly didn't see that coming. Showing Kylo and Rey as both being shades of grey, rather than pure light or dark, is also interesting and more representative of real life.
But the actual implementation in the movie was just abysmal.
Snoke is introduced in TFA as the big bad guy, the guiding force of oppression in the galaxy. But, his character is never filled out, we have no clue how he gained control of the Empire and turned it into the New Order. Then, he's killed off with minimal effort. What a waste.
Kylo is introduced as the next Vadar, scary, intimidating and willing to commit attrocities. But then he takes off his mask and starts speaking and that all goes out the window as he's turned into a whiney spoilt brat with confidence issues. He stops being the enemy because he's no longer scary, but he's too old and whiney for me to feel any empathy for him. So, he ends up just being annoying. (This is nothing against the actor himself, I think he does the best he can with the material he was given). TLJ doesn't do anything to dissuade us from this notion, he doesn't progress as a character at all - by the end of the movie he's still a whiney spoilt brat, he's just been given some new things to whine about.
Rey had her issue of parentage built up all through TFA, only to have it ignored and made irrelevant in TLJ. That's a wasted opportunity, making it irrelevant doesn't add anything at all. Then, she heads to find Luke and after minimal training is somehow one of the most powerful jedi ever. It doesn't make sense from a lore point of view.
Po's journey was actually interesting, making the transition from fighter to leader. But, again, terrible writing. Leia is supposed to be an amazing leader, yet for some reason she allows Po to keep making mistakes that costs the lives of her friends. It makes Leia (and the rest of the rebel leadership) look like a bunch of muppets.
The space chase....ugghhh. Somehow ALL the different space ships have the same top speed.....except all the tie fighters you can see flying about that are clearly moving faster. And why didn't some of the new order jump ahead and wait? And then the rebel escape.....the entire new order fleet is bearing down on them, but somehow none of them have their eyes open and sensors trained on the rebels? /facepalm
Finn is just irrelevant to the movie. I felt he was/is the best of the new actors, but Rian decides to make him redundant? Why? I appreciate expanding the SW universe, I liked seeing the casino planet, but from a storytelling point of view it was totally unnecessary and a waste of time.
The escape from the hoth-like planet at the end? The planet is surrounded by the remainder of the New Order fleet (which is like 95% of the fleet as only a few were killed by the suicide attack), the leadership still exists and is functioning, plus they have a big ground force. Yet, despite the massive army, the Millenium Falcon can somehow cruise in, land, load up with rebels and then escape.
What about Leia floating through space? Not only ridiculous, but that was the perfect opportunity to kill off the character given Carrie's actual death. If they'd have done that, it would have had a massive emotional effect and touched all our lives. Instead they just weirded us all out with random, unexplained force usage.
And the force in general. Yes, you can do whatever the hell you want with it, it's a fictional usage. But, escalating it's powers exponentially should really serve a purpose. In TLJ, it doesn't. It doesn't add anything to the movie or the lore, in fact, by ramping up it's powers so quickly and pointlessly it makes previous use of the force seem petty and irrelevant by comparison.
Last but not least, ITS A KIDS FILM!
Yet, the messages it was trying to get across and the methods of delivery are well above the levels of most children. So, Rian failed with his primary audience (kids) and mostly failed with his secondary fans (older SW fans). The only people he seemed to please was some movie critics, but those guys are so far up their own arses that their opinions are worthless to the general public.
TLJ could have been a brilliant film. The general direction and messaging could have worked. But the implementation was so poor, due to Rian, that the film was just mediocre.
Will JJ do better?
JJ's message/story will likely be more basic, but I expect he'll actually be able to deliver it well, pleasing the main audiences rather than just a few critics.
I could literally write just as much useful/useless knit-picking about every other Star Wars movie, or frankly just about every other movie ever made.
But what's the point?
Well, maybe not Rogue One - outside of the Portgula nonsense that move was pretty much 100% perfect.
Don't get me started on Return of the Jedi ...
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I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the game if he runs into Luke before he goes into exile or something
So, you're willing to ignore the possibility of Star Wars Babies? This *is* Disney, after all. I wish I had the ability to disparage a series even before it's made. I bow to your superior skills, @Arterius
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Looks interesting. Because it is EA, I'll consider purchasing after release, after reviews, after seeing gameplay on YouTube... If the general consensus is good, I'll pick it up on sale.
Not thrilled with the Zelda-type dungeons and platforming; would much rather be more focused on combat.
While it is showing its age today, I'm still a big fan of the KOTOR games and the fabulous STORY one got to play through.
This game looks cool, but thinking of all the platforming makes my fingers cramp. I kind of wish they had shown Dathomir since in SWG that place was creepy AF.
Greez Dritus a Latero species... So I see the same crap from the Mickey Mouse movies about "Ster Wers". They come up with new species, new planets and pretty much anything.
I was excited until I read this. Now this is a HUGE red flag. No need to read anymore and care about this game. It's going to be some trash with dubious plot like the other Mickey Mouse movies that makes absolutely zero sense and pushes some annoying agenda down people's throats.
Too bad Star Wars is dead. I guess I will go back to playing Star Wars Battlefront 1 (2004), Jedi Academy and read the Timothy Zahn books about the Expanded universe and rewatch movies 1-6.
Such a shame.
Show us on the doll where disney touched you.
Sexual assault isn’t something to joke about...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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It is still so weird to me to not be excited by something not SW related. I just feel nothing for this game at all. Excited for everything else SW for the rest of the year but this game looks so meh. If reviews are positive I will pick it up down the line though
I'm the opposite. I could see myself having a run through this, Mando looks interesting etc, but Episode IX? DON'T CARE.
Which is a funny turn of events. Gee, thanks Rian!
Edit: I also don't want too see too many new races. Come on, this takes place during R1, I want the comfort and familiarity of Zabraks, Twi'leks etc.
Yeah I booked seats for 2 of my kids at the first showing of EP9 but the rest of us are gonna pass. This game I might pickup though...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logging in to Steam today I see Yeah, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order EA's new title was being offered for pre-order on Steam today. I guess they really want this game to do really well. And that in an of itself is pretty telling on how EA business is being affected by the bottom line ( dollar )
Logging in to Steam today I see Yeah, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order EA's new title was being offered for pre-order on Steam today. I guess they really want this game to do really well. And that in an of itself is pretty telling on how EA business is being affected by the bottom line ( dollar )
This is the first. EA announced recently that they're going to be releasing their games on Steam in addition to Origin Access from now on. They're also going to be offering a version of Origin Access on Steam too although separate from the one available in the Origin launcher.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
1) Godwin's law is not a catch all argument. Sometimes, references to Nazism are thematically appropriate, and this is one of those times. Also, who made Godwin the authority on rhetoric?
2) Yes, I agree that the speech was a weak scene in TFA. But, at least Hux was intimidating in that movie rather than the butt of everyone's jokes.
3) The man in charge is the one who directs and motivates the underlings. Just because Vader does all the work does not mean that Palpatine didn't directly guide him in that direction. Vader was a chess piece and Palpatine the chess master.
4) I actually like Kylo. He's not bad, and I don't fault him for any of TLJ's bad writing.
But faulting the character development and writing (and acting OMG) for Rey, Kylo, and Luke? That's just nuts.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Rey doesn't substantially develop (because she was already on top and had little room to grow).
Luke regresses into a completely different person. Though I will admit that the lightsaber chucking scene was legitimately one of the funniest things I've ever seen. A joke with the best possible cliffhanger payoff.
Kylo actually... Kylo's good. I just don't think he works without a guiding hand. He's not smart or tactical, and he has already lost to our protagonist TWICE. He's not intimidating on his own anymore, even if he is compelling to watch.
I also realize I'm probably in the minority there.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You have a character who was a bright eyed/starry eyed kid, who grew into a powerful person who then decides that he needs a different route, that he values different things. That's ok.
There is more than one place that Rey can go. It doesn't have to just be "up."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Snoke is introduced in TFA as the big bad guy, the guiding force of oppression in the galaxy. But, his character is never filled out, we have no clue how he gained control of the Empire and turned it into the New Order. Then, he's killed off with minimal effort. What a waste.
We never see how the Emperor, in the original star wars movies, became emperor or anything of that nature. We are just told "he's the emperor." I seem to remember his demise was beyond easy as well.
Kylo is introduced as the next Vadar, scary, intimidating and willing to commit attrocities. But then he takes off his mask and starts speaking and that all goes out the window as he's turned into a whiney spoilt brat with confidence issues. He stops being the enemy because he's no longer scary, but he's too old and whiney for me to feel any empathy for him.
He's not Vader and that's the issue. He wants to be Vader. He idolizes Vader. But he is very flawed and very human. He's not "whiny" he's a frickin' emotional mess. Maybe because you can't accept that "he is an emotional mess who never had the acceptance from his father that he wanted and looked to it elsewhere but it was never satisfactory" makes you not like him. I think he's a great character. There's a woman here at work who thinks he is, without a doubt 'the best character.'
If you apply the "he is the next Vader" then that is just going to bring issues. He's not. That's the whole point.
Absolutely, more could have and should have been done with Finn.
Part of the problem with the Empire Strikes Back is that it was a middle film. Even at the time people had issues with it. Middle films seem to be a challenge for film makers.
Let's see what happens in a few months with the next one.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But what's the point?
Well, maybe not Rogue One - outside of the Portgula nonsense that move was pretty much 100% perfect.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Not thrilled with the Zelda-type dungeons and platforming; would much rather be more focused on combat.
While it is showing its age today, I'm still a big fan of the KOTOR games and the fabulous STORY one got to play through.
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
?
yeah there was, in many of the videos I saw there was plenty in the boss fights.
Sexual assault isn’t something to joke about...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeah I booked seats for 2 of my kids at the first showing of EP9 but the rest of us are gonna pass. This game I might pickup though...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://ca.ign.com/articles/2019/10/29/ea-will-sell-games-on-steam-again-starting-with-star-wars-jedi-fallen-order-apex-legends
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED