Interesting how the hands down favorites for MMORPGs which "combined" PVP and PVE best are those which kept the two mostly apart, which I can well agree with
Now in the spirit of a identifying a game which actually attempted to combine the two, never completely separating them I'm going to say EVE is the best choice.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Interesting how the hands down favorites for MMORPGs which "combined" PVP and PVE best are those which kept the two mostly apart, which I can well agree with
Now in the spirit of a identifying a game which actually attempted to combine the two, never completely separating them I'm going to say EVE is the best choice.
This is one of the reasons why I think RvR works so well, PvP and PvE do not mix well; though a huge fan of PvP shooters and the like I never thought MMORPG's and PvP were easy companions. I note that what we see so often today is people wanting MMOs to be more like their other favourite games, indeed all genres to be like their favourite genre. This never works and it is a rather blinkered approach. So I am all for having every kind of MMO PvP set up, just that to me RVR is the best.
Not played EvE but might the reason you think it worked so well there is down to EVE's setup as a game being different from most MMORPG's? Or do you think it is just window dressing and as a gaming system EVE works like WOW but they just did the PvP/PvE better?
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
If the PvE was somehow lacking, you could envisage a game where the PvE was better; the crux of the OP's question is can you envisage a game where the mix of PvP and PvP is better? No other system is as good as RvR let alone better and there is nothing about RvR that impedes the creation of great PvE content. For myself the PvE in DAOC stood well against others of that era though it was not the best.
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
If the PvE was somehow lacking, you could envisage a game where the PvE was better; the crux of the OP's question is can you envisage a game where the mix of PvP and PvP is better? No other system is as good as RvR let alone better and there is nothing about RvR that impedes the creation of great PvE content. For myself the PvE in DAOC stood well against others of that era though it was not the best.
it did ... Darkness Falls was a shining example of PVPVE content ... The RVR was and /is still really fun ..
Were/ are there games that did/do PVP better yes .. and seperatley were/are there better PVE experiences , certainly ..
A few people said War PVE was bad and it kind of was but there was so much of it. Tons of lore , bosses and public quests through three lanes. Unfortunately the world wasn't connected very well and it was hard to find other people to engage in it while something was always going on in Rvr.
Interesting how the hands down favorites for MMORPGs which "combined" PVP and PVE best are those which kept the two mostly apart, which I can well agree with
Mostly apart, but not enough - until now here's the voice of the -so far missing- PvE side:
LotRO.
Pvp is entirely separated, even has an own launcher and has no influence on the main game whatsoever. Which is better even than the "separate pvp server" solution since in that way the influence is still there, like when the pvp side whines loud enough for a nerf, it will harm PvE side as well.
Sure, you might argue it ain't really fit for the "combined" part of the question, but hey, technically it's in the same game... and it's working. Many players don't even know the game has pvp, while there are avid Creeps who love it and don't play anything else just the Monster play. (besides the one mandatory "regular" character to level 10, which unlocks the pvp play)
I believe that's the best combination. No trolling, no influence (from either side) on the other, both sides can enjoy their kinda gameplay undisturbed.
Interesting how the hands down favorites for MMORPGs which "combined" PVP and PVE best are those which kept the two mostly apart, which I can well agree with
Mostly apart, but not enough - until now here's the voice of the -so far missing- PvE side:
LotRO.
Pvp is entirely separated, even has an own launcher and has no influence on the main game whatsoever. Which is better even than the "separate pvp server" solution since in that way the influence is still there, like when the pvp side whines loud enough for a nerf, it will harm PvE side as well.
Sure, you might argue it ain't really fit for the "combined" part of the question, but hey, technically it's in the same game... and it's working. Many players don't even know the game has pvp, while there are avid Creeps who love it and don't play anything else just the Monster play. (besides the one mandatory "regular" character to level 10, which unlocks the pvp play)
I believe that's the best combination. No trolling, no influence (from either side) on the other, both sides can enjoy their kinda gameplay undisturbed.
Sorry Moors imo is just horrible , the Creeps are at such a disadvantage after all the years of bloat for the freeps and no love for creeps .. And its an instance PVP which has no bearing on the actual game world
Interesting how the hands down favorites for MMORPGs which "combined" PVP and PVE best are those which kept the two mostly apart, which I can well agree with
Now in the spirit of a identifying a game which actually attempted to combine the two, never completely separating them I'm going to say EVE is the best choice.
One of the reasons I think L2 did it best was it didnt split them at all. No artificial out of the game world force preventing you from hitting others. No dedicated zones. Just a game world with a pvp setting same as the real world with a (semi-effective) regulatory mechanism in place.
Its just my opinion though which you dont have to agree with. Its the beauty of this forum.
As I recall in the initial US release players could not be attacked when in town, but it's been many years so perhaps I'm not remembering correctly.
I don't recall anyone ever being killed in Giran or elsewhere else it would have played havoc with the player "stores" which were just AFK players sitting in town one could purchase goods from.
Similar to EVE as the only "safe" place is when docked up in a station, otherwise one can always be attacked no matter where they are.
Both games are good candidates for being considered the best at combining the two mechanics with some of the more effective controls to keep them from descending into lawless gankboxes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1) A multi layered PvE system that included three separate lores in three separate lands each with totally different character class options. Quests for leveling, quests for epic gear, quests for legendary gear, epic mobs for farming rare gear, elaborate crafting and gearing system, etc., etc.
AND!
2) A PvP system that effects the PvE world without ruining it by using relics, a separate character progression system with realm ranks, champion levels and master levels, an open world siege system with castles and towers, a huge, separate PvP frontier zone for each realm, shared PvP dungeons, and a combat system that rewards tactics over brute force.
That game is DAoC. Like it or not, these are the only people that did it right.
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
I did address your question with the line that "If DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be a sign we really ought to stop trying"
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
I did address your question with the line that "If DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be a sign we really ought to stop trying"
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Therein lies the difference. The gear grind is DAoC wasn't necessary because a 100% crafted setup was completely viable. The dynamic gear system (templating) has yet been matched in any other game I've played. DAoC had no FOTM builds because each class had multiple, viable builds and gear options depending on your group makeup. And no single group makeup was better in all situations because each realm had different characters, so what might have worked well against Hibs, maybe didn't work well against Mids or Albs. It forced tactical combat over pure brute strength. I've seen mindless zergs get wiped out by a solid 8 man that used the terrain and tactics.
The biggest flaw in DAoC RvR was lag. I think if they remade DAoC to be identical to the original using a new engine to reduce lag and update graphics, it would do quite well.
1) A multi layered PvE system that included three separate lores in three separate lands each with totally different character class options. Quests for leveling, quests for epic gear, quests for legendary gear, epic mobs for farming rare gear, elaborate crafting and gearing system, etc., etc.
AND!
2) A PvP system that effects the PvE world without ruining it by using relics, a separate character progression system with realm ranks, champion levels and master levels, an open world siege system with castles and towers, a huge, separate PvP frontier zone for each realm, shared PvP dungeons, and a combat system that rewards tactics over brute force.
That game is DAoC. Like it or not, these are the only people that did it right.
A lot of people apparently don't get the subtleties that made DAoC great. The connection of PvP and PvE through the realm-wide bonuses from the relic system and also access to what was at the time the premiere PvE place, Darkness Falls, made it so that even those players who only rarely or never PvPd had something to gain from what their realm's PvPers were up to. That created a connection between them.
That was a game where there was no whiny us vs. them division between PvPers and PvErs like you see in other similar games like GW2 and ESO. GW2 and ESO did the basic PvE and PvP separation copied from DAoC which granted, by itself is much better than the OWPvP mess other games have, but they missed the secret sauce that brought it all together in DAoC.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
I did address your question with the line that "If DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be a sign we really ought to stop trying"
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Agreed. I can say that GW2 did it better than DAoC by a factor of 10 and I dont even like GW2. DaoC's PvE was mind numblingly boring. You can have all the right systems in place to make it work but if you can not bring them all together it is a lost cause. DAoC was a series of good ideas poorly executed in my personal opinion.
Play a pvp game or a pve game. No one will ever get it right. They are two separate types of games. The games that have had the most success with it have treated them as such.
I mean it is like there are people who like cars and people who like trucks. For people who want both you have the El Camino. We all saw how that turned out. Games that try and combine the two are the El Caminos of mmorpg genre
Not great at either being a car or a truck yet still drivable.
It has proven so hard to be good at just one or the other so stop trying to do both. No one has ever pulled it off in a fun and meaningful way to me personally.
GW2 PvP is instanced and has no bearing on the PVE world , unless you want to count those poor Trolls and frogs everyone rolls over ... That is Not PVE .. Not to mention that GW2 RvR is thought of as complete shit
Darkness fall altho an instanced Massive dungeon is PVPVE done right .. Frontiers is a Massive zone that contains both PVE content that is relative in a massive RvR zone ..
GW2 is a pretty bad MMOrpg imo that has set the genre back , and will be lucky if it can even out live a dinosaur like DAOC .. (I dont think it will )
I can say that GW2 did it better than DAoC by a factor of 10 and I dont even like GW2. DaoC's PvE was mind numblingly boring.
DAoC PvE was also year 2000 PvE which was mind numbingly boring all around the genre. DAoC PvE was all about just grinding exactly like all other MMOs at the time were. But when they introduced Darkness Falls a few months after release they created the very best open world PvE dungeon that has ever been done in any MMO to this date.
It had everything from solo play near the entrance, group play in the middle all the way to raid-sized PvE down in its depths. No one at the time had anything better for PvE.
Themepark PvE with tour guided experiences wasn't even a thing at that time.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I can say that GW2 did it better than DAoC by a factor of 10 and I dont even like GW2. DaoC's PvE was mind numblingly boring.
DAoC PvE was also year 2000 PvE which was mind numbingly boring all around the genre. DAoC PvE was all about just grinding exactly like all other MMOs at the time were. But when they introduced Darkness Falls a few months after release they created the very best open world PvE dungeon that has ever been done in any MMO to this date.
It had everything from solo play near the entrance, group play in the middle all the way to raid-sized PvE down in its depths. No one at the time had anything better for PvE.
Themepark PvE with tour guided experiences wasn't even a thing at that time.
I completely disagree. AC was worlds better as was UO
Not even close lol. And I played AC for 2 years before going to the infinitely better DAoC.
AC had "blunt swords" as a feature for chrissakes because anyone who specialized in swords couldn't do any damage against golems. Their solution? blunt swords LMFAO.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Now in the spirit of a identifying a game which actually attempted to combine the two, never completely separating them I'm going to say EVE is the best choice.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Not played EvE but might the reason you think it worked so well there is down to EVE's setup as a game being different from most MMORPG's? Or do you think it is just window dressing and as a gaming system EVE works like WOW but they just did the PvP/PvE better?
Sorry Moors imo is just horrible , the Creeps are at such a disadvantage after all the years of bloat for the freeps and no love for creeps .. And its an instance PVP which has no bearing on the actual game world
I don't recall anyone ever being killed in Giran or elsewhere else it would have played havoc with the player "stores" which were just AFK players sitting in town one could purchase goods from.
Similar to EVE as the only "safe" place is when docked up in a station, otherwise one can always be attacked no matter where they are.
Both games are good candidates for being considered the best at combining the two mechanics with some of the more effective controls to keep them from descending into lawless gankboxes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1) A multi layered PvE system that included three separate lores in three separate lands each with totally different character class options. Quests for leveling, quests for epic gear, quests for legendary gear, epic mobs for farming rare gear, elaborate crafting and gearing system, etc., etc.
That game is DAoC. Like it or not, these are the only people that did it right.
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Therein lies the difference. The gear grind is DAoC wasn't necessary because a 100% crafted setup was completely viable. The dynamic gear system (templating) has yet been matched in any other game I've played. DAoC had no FOTM builds because each class had multiple, viable builds and gear options depending on your group makeup. And no single group makeup was better in all situations because each realm had different characters, so what might have worked well against Hibs, maybe didn't work well against Mids or Albs. It forced tactical combat over pure brute strength. I've seen mindless zergs get wiped out by a solid 8 man that used the terrain and tactics.
The biggest flaw in DAoC RvR was lag. I think if they remade DAoC to be identical to the original using a new engine to reduce lag and update graphics, it would do quite well.
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That was a game where there was no whiny us vs. them division between PvPers and PvErs like you see in other similar games like GW2 and ESO. GW2 and ESO did the basic PvE and PvP separation copied from DAoC which granted, by itself is much better than the OWPvP mess other games have, but they missed the secret sauce that brought it all together in DAoC.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
It had everything from solo play near the entrance, group play in the middle all the way to raid-sized PvE down in its depths. No one at the time had anything better for PvE.
Themepark PvE with tour guided experiences wasn't even a thing at that time.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
AC had "blunt swords" as a feature for chrissakes because anyone who specialized in swords couldn't do any damage against golems. Their solution? blunt swords LMFAO.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다