The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
I did address your question with the line that "If DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be a sign we really ought to stop trying"
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Agreed. I can say that GW2 did it better than DAoC by a factor of 10 and I dont even like GW2. DaoC's PvE was mind numblingly boring. You can have all the right systems in place to make it work but if you can not bring them all together it is a lost cause. DAoC was a series of good ideas poorly executed in my personal opinion.
Play a pvp game or a pve game. No one will ever get it right. They are two separate types of games. The games that have had the most success with it have treated them as such.
I mean it is like there are people who like cars and people who like trucks. For people who want both you have the El Camino. We all saw how that turned out. Games that try and combine the two are the El Caminos of mmorpg genre
Not great at either being a car or a truck yet still drivable.
It has proven so hard to be good at just one or the other so stop trying to do both. No one has ever pulled it off in a fun and meaningful way to me personally.
I found your statement that PVE in DAOC is mind numbingly boring puzzling.
I have to wonder what realm(s) and class(es) you played to give you such an opinion as it's so different from my experience, especially when compared to other games of the same period.
I don't think one can make a fair comparison of combat mechanics with games of a different era, GW2 vs WAR would be better choice.
I love melee so Midgard was my way through the game, Yet it was Bonedancer ftw, though I did spend many a moon in Albion. (Pally) The thing I found boring about DAoC's PvE was it was too easy. I mean I could pull one or just two mobs every single pull. (with exceptions of course) The balance between creating solo and group play is a delicate thing. I do not feel they pulled it off well at all. Solo questing is fine but they relied on it too much.Adding TDs did not help that either it made it worse and splintered the players. It just seemed that for everything they got right they screwed up 3 more things. I feel AC and EQ did it better at that time. Not to mention Lineage and AC had much better combat (in my opinion of course) Plus the crafting was......eh and the world felt big but empty. The loot is weak (even crafted gear compared to other games in it's era) To me a game that caters to both pve and pvp and those inbetween is a tough task. They did a good job for the task of trying that. I just feel the pve does not prepare you for what a player is to expect when you rvr. It should if it caters to both camps. I don't know, I mean it is a personal thing of course. It is all subjective. I just found the game lacking in so many ways. Not lost on the mmorpg crowd either because it has it's fans but was never a world beater in playerbase because once again an mmorpg studio release expansions that ruin their games. I am glad so many people like it or did like it but I am just not one of them.
Thanks for the in depth reply, pure melee classes were never my thing with my favorites over my many years being the Minstrel, Skald, Theurigist, Mid. Healer, Hunter, Necromancer and Vampir. (The latter two being my primary power levelers)
I tried many other classes, once raised a Pally to 50 which I'll agree was terribly boring solo, but it really shined in large camp PVE where I could easily pull 10 or more with the right group support.
End game PVP it was probably the worst, which most folks who tried doing it on them would agree.
Also, I recall Pallys having to "twist" which I found hateful even though I never minded doing so on my Minstrel.
Never played a Bone Dancer but my Minstrel was the perfect scissors to its paper, I could easily take them down (as long as the mezz landed) while some classes had no chance of doing so.
I went back so many times over the years, leveled multiple classes across the official servers and three freeshards.
I full on role played in a guild called Shadowclan, being part of a guild which initially only permitted Kobolds but eventually added Sylvans so we could get proper healers.
The clan actually had it's own made up written language (before voice chats were a thing) which always had to be used unless one was OOC in a private tell.
I played with casual guilds, Stealther guilds, PVP focused teams, hardcore 8 mans and often just rolled with the mindless zerg just for the fun of it.
So many different ways to play, so many social experiences, my 2nd favorite game of all time, only EVE exceeds it, and just barely.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
I did address your question with the line that "If DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be a sign we really ought to stop trying"
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Agreed. I can say that GW2 did it better than DAoC by a factor of 10 and I dont even like GW2. DaoC's PvE was mind numblingly boring. You can have all the right systems in place to make it work but if you can not bring them all together it is a lost cause. DAoC was a series of good ideas poorly executed in my personal opinion.
Play a pvp game or a pve game. No one will ever get it right. They are two separate types of games. The games that have had the most success with it have treated them as such.
I mean it is like there are people who like cars and people who like trucks. For people who want both you have the El Camino. We all saw how that turned out. Games that try and combine the two are the El Caminos of mmorpg genre
Not great at either being a car or a truck yet still drivable.
It has proven so hard to be good at just one or the other so stop trying to do both. No one has ever pulled it off in a fun and meaningful way to me personally.
I found your statement that PVE in DAOC is mind numbingly boring puzzling.
I have to wonder what realm(s) and class(es) you played to give you such an opinion as it's so different from my experience, especially when compared to other games of the same period.
I don't think one can make a fair comparison of combat mechanics with games of a different era, GW2 vs WAR would be better choice.
I love melee so Midgard was my way through the game, Yet it was Bonedancer ftw, though I did spend many a moon in Albion. (Pally) The thing I found boring about DAoC's PvE was it was too easy. I mean I could pull one or just two mobs every single pull. (with exceptions of course) The balance between creating solo and group play is a delicate thing. I do not feel they pulled it off well at all. Solo questing is fine but they relied on it too much.Adding TDs did not help that either it made it worse and splintered the players. It just seemed that for everything they got right they screwed up 3 more things. I feel AC and EQ did it better at that time. Not to mention Lineage and AC had much better combat (in my opinion of course) Plus the crafting was......eh and the world felt big but empty. The loot is weak (even crafted gear compared to other games in it's era) To me a game that caters to both pve and pvp and those inbetween is a tough task. They did a good job for the task of trying that. I just feel the pve does not prepare you for what a player is to expect when you rvr. It should if it caters to both camps. I don't know, I mean it is a personal thing of course. It is all subjective. I just found the game lacking in so many ways. Not lost on the mmorpg crowd either because it has it's fans but was never a world beater in playerbase because once again an mmorpg studio release expansions that ruin their games. I am glad so many people like it or did like it but I am just not one of them.
Thanks for the in depth reply, pure melee classes were never my thing with my favorites over my many years being the Minstrel, Skald, Theurigist, Mid. Healer, Hunter, Necromancer and Vampir. (The latter two being my primary power levelers)
I tried many other classes, once raised a Pally to 50 which I'll agree was terribly boring solo, but it really shined in large camp PVE where I could easily pull 10 or more with the right group support.
End game PVP it was probably the worst, which most folks who tried doing it on them would agree.
Also, I recall Pallys having to "twist" which I found hateful even though I never minded doing so on my Minstrel.
Never played a Bone Dancer but my Minstrel was the perfect scissors to its paper, I could easily take them down (as long as the mezz landed) while some classes had no chance of doing so.
I went back so many times over the years, leveled multiple classes across the official servers and three freeshards.
I full on role played in a guild called Shadowclan, being part of a guild which initially only permitted Kobolds but eventually added Sylvans so we could get proper healers.
The clan actually had it's own made up written language (before voice chats were a thing) which always had to be used unless one was OOC in a private tell.
I played with casual guilds, Stealther guilds, PVP focused teams, hardcore 8 mans and often just rolled with the mindless zerg just for the fun of it.
So many different ways to play, so many social experiences, my 2nd favorite game of all time, only EVE exceeds it, and just barely.
as someone that also enjoys Melee as well, I can say that Melee often gets the short end of the stick in PvP games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
The argument can be made both ways.
There are so many great PvE focused games out there that the PvEers joined a PvP focused game in beta, New World, and cried until they made it another PvE game. Maybe people want PvP more than they want to admit.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
The argument can be made both ways.
There are so many great PvE focused games out there that the PvEers joined a PvP focused game in beta, New World, and cried until they made it another PvE game. Maybe people want PvP more than they want to admit.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
The games that do fit? Eve, played it for a decade and ready for something new. Mortal? Not well made. Darkfall? Played it till it shut down. Rise of Agon? It's just darkfall and old.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
As one of those people that likes PvP, and to be blunt, I really enjoy a good PvP game, we are just going to disagree on what you think "PvP" players want.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
The games that do fit? Eve, played it for a decade and ready for something new. Mortal? Not well made. Darkfall? Played it till it shut down. Rise of Agon? It's just darkfall and old.
We, the PvP focused, would like a new MMORPG.
Err, Albion Online?
Calm down, no need to start throwing things, I'll go away now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
As one of those people that likes PvP, and to be blunt, I really enjoy a good PvP game, we are just going to disagree on what you think "PvP" players want.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
The games that do fit? Eve, played it for a decade and ready for something new. Mortal? Not well made. Darkfall? Played it till it shut down. Rise of Agon? It's just darkfall and old.
We, the PvP focused, would like a new MMORPG.
Err, Albion Online?
Calm down, no need to start throwing things, I'll go away now.
I actually wrote, " Don't even mention Albion, because the gameplay and graphics are horrid", but I removed it. Guess I should have kept it lol.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
As one of those people that likes PvP, and to be blunt, I really enjoy a good PvP game, we are just going to disagree on what you think "PvP" players want.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
The games that do fit? Eve, played it for a decade and ready for something new. Mortal? Not well made. Darkfall? Played it till it shut down. Rise of Agon? It's just darkfall and old.
We, the PvP focused, would like a new MMORPG.
ESO , GW2 , BDO and Trove are trash PvP ...
ESO GW2 being instanced should not even be in the discussion that is not PVP in MMORPG its a seprate game that has no bearing on thew game world ..
BDO is complete p2w gear score , that takes little to no skill ..
Trove is barley worth mentioning at all being instanced and trash...
Eve is solid PVP and FvF that delivers action/risk/reward and suspense that has real world meaning and collateral effect ..
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
As one of those people that likes PvP, and to be blunt, I really enjoy a good PvP game, we are just going to disagree on what you think "PvP" players want.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
Let's argue about what "real pvpers" are, shall we...
IMO....Ive always liked how Ultima Onlines PvP and PvE came together.....It merged them great...I mean you go out and PvE some monsters or bandits always looking over your shoulder for a Red name to pop up...And sometimes a Blue name that wants to turn Red....Loved it alot
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
As one of those people that likes PvP, and to be blunt, I really enjoy a good PvP game, we are just going to disagree on what you think "PvP" players want.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
Let's argue about what "real pvpers" are, shall we...
Oh, please continue. It just reinforces the PvEers' opinion that PVPers eat their young.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Well it's a good thing there are a lot of games out there for everyone because I couldn't disagree with you more if I tried.
Oh wait, there aren't many pvp mmos to choose from. I guess new world will be.... Oh wait...
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
Glad we disagree, it's good that we are not all cookie cutter players.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
As one of those people that likes PvP, and to be blunt, I really enjoy a good PvP game, we are just going to disagree on what you think "PvP" players want.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
Let's argue about what "real pvpers" are, shall we...
Oh, please continue. It just reinforces the PvEers' opinion that PVPers eat their young.
People who like PvP don't necessarily grief. People who like PVE don't always hate PvP.
Let's argue about what "real pvpers" are, shall we...
I think that would be a great stand alone discussion, and it seems there are at the very least two people on this forum that think they are real pvp'ers, and they do not seem to agree on what a real pvp'er would want in their game.
As I see it, I think PvE should an absolute minimal impact on PvP, and this includes, levels, gear, all that crap that for the most part simply pulls way from the thrill of a PvP match.
I can say with 100% absolute truth, never in my life, across any PvP game I have ever played, have I thought to myself"What would make this game great is needing to farm some corn right about now"
I can also say with 100% absolute truth, never in my life, across any PvP game I have ever played, have I thought to myself"What would make this game great is being able to kill someone else while they were farming corn right about now"
As I see it, if we do not agree, we need to disagree on at the very least one of the above points.
The question at this point is only which point.
But again, that would make a great stand alone discussion, as I am sure others would love to weigh in on what they think is a real pvp player.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'll put in a plug for Ryzom. There were three methods of PvP:
1) flag yourself, you can then PvP with any other flagged person
2) venture into the PvP zone, where the best mats are found. PvP is open there.
3) schedule an attack on another guild's outpost. PvP was consensual in the sense that both sides agree to fight at a certain time. Outposts produce special mats.
Ultima Online, DAOC, WOW and Eve Online are all good example where pvp and pve merge pretty well into a single game. All thoses game were solid and you could trive in pve, pvp or a combinaison of both.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
I don't know any MMO PvPers that want "a fair fight". They want a perpetual environment that is contested. They want the ability to wage large scale war. They want to be able to use tactics. They want character options. They want it all to have a purpose.
A fair fight is never on the list of wants.
This isn't Street Fighter... it's an MMO. Massive(ly) is in the name. It will never be fair. I think it's safe to say that if you want "a fair fight" in PvP, then MMO's aren't your game.
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
I don't know any MMO PvPers that want "a fair fight". They want a perpetual environment that is contested. They want the ability to wage large scale war. They want to be able to use tactics. They want character options. They want it all to have a purpose.
A fair fight is never on the list of wants.
This isn't Street Fighter... it's an MMO. Massive(ly) is in the name. It will never be fair. I think it's safe to say that if you want "a fair fight" in PvP, then MMO's aren't your game.
Also , there are no fair fights in a game like Eve , anyone looking for a fair fight is in the wrong game , fights are most times carefully scrutinized , weighed before engagement .. Expecting to win ..
Pandora Saga online (japanese style mmo) RF online (traditional mmo from south korea) Archeage (i m not sure from where. maybe russia or korea idk. but the map just too damm big that make me real sick. but its good game tho) last.. Ragnarok online (nothing can replace it)
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
Most PvP people don't necessarily want an environment that fosters mindless ganking with nothing to gain. I think that happens when a PvErs gets a little taste of PvP and goes off the rails a little. If I ganked a grey in DAoC it was because 1) they could have been a spy checking on keeps and groups, 2) it was a slow day and I hoped a higher person would come out to "protect" them or 3) I knew their main and maybe owed them one. Most of the time I would just /wave and move on.
We shall disagree. Real PvP players want a PvP game that gives them a fair fight, and intense combat, that is at its core an adrenaline rush, as every conflict is a test of skill. To a real PvP player, what you call a Gray should not even exist in a real PvP game.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
I don't know any MMO PvPers that want "a fair fight". They want a perpetual environment that is contested. They want the ability to wage large scale war. They want to be able to use tactics. They want character options. They want it all to have a purpose.
A fair fight is never on the list of wants.
This isn't Street Fighter... it's an MMO. Massive(ly) is in the name. It will never be fair. I think it's safe to say that if you want "a fair fight" in PvP, then MMO's aren't your game.
While we do agree there is a need for a reason to fight and a sense of victory.
And while Large scale Wars are great and all, PvP players also want small scale combat, they want to be able to lone-wolf or work in small strike teams and still have their contributions being meaningful and viable to the overall teams efforts.
With that said, I can't think of a single PvP game where balance was not at the very top of the list of what the players were concerned about.
I mean, it's right in the name Player vs Player, not Toon vs Toon.
So I guess we will disagree, and I will go out, enjoy the PvP/PvE games I play, and you can keep looking for that somehow magically perfect yet totally unfair PvP MMO.
Good Luck.. I guess.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
First time I was dotted and killed while riding a horse in DAoC on Andred, it made me laugh.
I learned not to use some horse routes, and find less traveled paths to get around.
It is weird to read all these different opinions on PvP vs PvE. I started graphical MMOs on Rallos Zek and was an anti-pk. The other player becomes part of the environment, creating dynamic situations that require critical thinking to overcome and progress.
I keep trying to decide if it's my nature or nurture from the way I grew up on these games.
I don't like the stereotypes because I've met a lot of good people on PvP servers or games. (Bad ones too of course)
Comments
I tried many other classes, once raised a Pally to 50 which I'll agree was terribly boring solo, but it really shined in large camp PVE where I could easily pull 10 or more with the right group support.
End game PVP it was probably the worst, which most folks who tried doing it on them would agree.
Also, I recall Pallys having to "twist" which I found hateful even though I never minded doing so on my Minstrel.
Never played a Bone Dancer but my Minstrel was the perfect scissors to its paper, I could easily take them down (as long as the mezz landed) while some classes had no chance of doing so.
I went back so many times over the years, leveled multiple classes across the official servers and three freeshards.
I full on role played in a guild called Shadowclan, being part of a guild which initially only permitted Kobolds but eventually added Sylvans so we could get proper healers.
The clan actually had it's own made up written language (before voice chats were a thing) which always had to be used unless one was OOC in a private tell.
I played with casual guilds, Stealther guilds, PVP focused teams, hardcore 8 mans and often just rolled with the mindless zerg just for the fun of it.
So many different ways to play, so many social experiences, my 2nd favorite game of all time, only EVE exceeds it, and just barely.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's the problem. There are plenty of pve focused mmos for all the pve focused players to choose from. Not so much for the rest of us.
But really, there are plenty of PvP MMO's, I can name 5 off the top of head as they get mentioned so much on these forums alone and I have played most of them, ESO, GW2, BDO, EVE, and Trove.
Under Development are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, and New World.
All of them very PvP MMO's.
Not to mention there is plenty of MOBA, BR, and ARENA games if your urge is for PvP exclusive. I mean really, when I want to get down and dirty and just pound out my aggression in brutal PvP combat, nothing beats the visceral blood bath that is Eternal Crusade. It's low marks are because the PvE is shit. but then again, it's a PvP focused game.
When I think about it, The only thing these games often don't have is allowing players to be huge raging asshats to the PvE community, but if that is your thing, there are games like Ark, Wurm, Mortal, Conan Exiles, Day Z, Rust, Scum.. I mean really, if you think there nothing out there, you're simply not looking hard enough.
The pvp mmos you mention are pve games with a little pvp. Not what new world was suppose to be and what “pvp” players are really looking for. The other games? Not mmorpgs. Those that are... Or were looking forward to New world wanted a MMORPG focused on PvP.
The games that do fit? Eve, played it for a decade and ready for something new. Mortal? Not well made. Darkfall? Played it till it shut down. Rise of Agon? It's just darkfall and old.
We, the PvP focused, would like a new MMORPG.
But hey.. disagreeing is good.
I enjoy fair sportsman like PvP games, thrilling fights, and good challenge.. and you enjoy.. well.. honest.. I have no idea what you are looking for in your PvP game, but.. whatever it is.. I don't think we will be playing the same games anyway.
Calm down, no need to start throwing things, I'll go away now.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think most true PvP players want a DAoC Frontiers type experience. Even Eve Online kinda of required a person to get into a region that that person could easily avoid in order to get into PvP fight without getting the attacker killed in the process.
In fact, among all the PvP games I played, I have never once in my life thought "You know what would make this game great, if I had to farm some fucking corn right about now"
But I guess to each their own.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Let's not lump everyone together.
As I see it, I think PvE should an absolute minimal impact on PvP, and this includes, levels, gear, all that crap that for the most part simply pulls way from the thrill of a PvP match.
I can say with 100% absolute truth, never in my life, across any PvP game I have ever played, have I thought to myself"What would make this game great is needing to farm some corn right about now"
I can also say with 100% absolute truth, never in my life, across any PvP game I have ever played, have I thought to myself"What would make this game great is being able to kill someone else while they were farming corn right about now"
As I see it, if we do not agree, we need to disagree on at the very least one of the above points.
The question at this point is only which point.
But again, that would make a great stand alone discussion, as I am sure others would love to weigh in on what they think is a real pvp player.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
I don't know any MMO PvPers that want "a fair fight". They want a perpetual environment that is contested. They want the ability to wage large scale war. They want to be able to use tactics. They want character options. They want it all to have a purpose.
Also , there are no fair fights in a game like Eve , anyone looking for a fair fight is in the wrong game , fights are most times carefully scrutinized , weighed before engagement .. Expecting to win ..
RF online (traditional mmo from south korea)
Archeage (i m not sure from where. maybe russia or korea idk. but the map just too damm big that make me real sick. but its good game tho)
last.. Ragnarok online (nothing can replace it)
And while Large scale Wars are great and all, PvP players also want small scale combat, they want to be able to lone-wolf or work in small strike teams and still have their contributions being meaningful and viable to the overall teams efforts.
With that said, I can't think of a single PvP game where balance was not at the very top of the list of what the players were concerned about.
I mean, it's right in the name Player vs Player, not Toon vs Toon.
So I guess we will disagree, and I will go out, enjoy the PvP/PvE games I play, and you can keep looking for that somehow magically perfect yet totally unfair PvP MMO.
Good Luck.. I guess.
I learned not to use some horse routes, and find less traveled paths to get around.
It is weird to read all these different opinions on PvP vs PvE. I started graphical MMOs on Rallos Zek and was an anti-pk. The other player becomes part of the environment, creating dynamic situations that require critical thinking to overcome and progress.
I keep trying to decide if it's my nature or nurture from the way I grew up on these games.
I don't like the stereotypes because I've met a lot of good people on PvP servers or games. (Bad ones too of course)