Originally posted by Kormac Originally posted by DariusWolfe Originally posted by Mihos <This post is made after reading Mihos' blue comment on DariusWolfe's suggestions>
Wow. (Note that the second 'w' is not capital, so I can't be talking about the game).
Just for clarification, all blue text was mine. And one thing I love about this site is that it has given me hope that if... no, when, I make this game happen, I'll have an audience.
This does not sound like -the- best game, but I would definitely say I would camp outside the local gameshop to get this thing as soon as humanly possible.
I like your ideas. I don't think we should try to make "the" perfect game, because that is quite improbable. If we keep supporting all these foolish middle-age mmo's thats all the developers will MAKE! Support games like this if you ever want to play something different, otherwise it is EQ clones forever.
LESS LEVELING, MORE PLAY EXPERIENCE! WE DO NOT PLAY GAMES TO LEVEL TO XX AND THEN DO NOTHING.
We are discussing how to create a "unique" MMO, fixing problems with today's MMOs and creating new concepts.
Commenting on your ideas:
1. Interesting idea. I was toying with a similar idea (monsters leveling), but your idea of congregating into societies is worth a closer look! As mentioned previously, the AI would be difficult, but could be worth the effort.
2. The game I am envisioning has NO NPCs whatsoever, with the exception of a dozen or so "higher powers". 99% of all useful items are produced by player crafters. Monsters would drop crafting material and a few other odds and ends.
3. Predetermined guilds and factions are a NO-NO!
4. This feature will need to be very carefully designed. The problem with no-holds-barred town destruction is that in an online game, the destruction can take place in seconds, rather than months it may take in real life. As someone mentioned previously, what took you months of in-game playtime to build up could be destroyed in an instant. I like the concept of being able to destroy anything at any time with no rules, but I don't think it will pan out when put into action. I will consider this further, but off the top of my head, perhaps each pounding that a guild takes would weaken it somewhat.
5. Don't know about this feature. I like the experience from player combat, but from the description I don't know about the given quests. But then again, it's just my opinion. Maybe when fully developed it could be an excellent system.
6. Devs paying attention to what the players are doing is an excellent idea. I don't know if the players should primarily control the storyline, but they should definitely have a huge effect on it. Instead of being in a story, they help create the story. Though some MMOs claim this is the case, in reality players haven't had a huge effect on the storylines.
7. World quests...I was thinking the same thing, but instead of "quests" I was thinking "goals". [but like I said...same thing!] For example, in the beginning, the players know little or nothing about the strange world they are living in...Why? Haven't worked that out yet, lol, but perhaps they were snatched from their worlds and placed on this one for some purpose. (Whatever, it's not important to my point!) But little by little they would find clues to why they are here and clues about various objects and happenings in the world. Numerous "goals" can exist in the world and players can discover these goals. One, for instance, may be that an ancient evil has been awakened by something some players did. The players would not KNOW they awakened this evil in the beginning of the world, but they would find clues hinting at what had happened. Perhaps this would lead them to a search to piece together an ancient artifact to defeat this evil. This may take three or four real months (or more) to accomplish. Numerous events such as this would happen simultaneously, some more critical than others.
8. I do not like player classes. I think that a character should be able to learn whatever combination of skills they want, limited by certain constraints (i.e. limited number of skill points). Question: How do you prevent the game from becoming a grinding contest? Why not just create a bot that causes your sword fighting character to hack at bunnies with his sword all day? Grinding is one the WORST effects in MMOs. How do we design a game where grinding will not advance your character?
9. "Twitch" style gaming: I like this idea. Enough people have expressed the desire for something like this that I think it's they way to go. One problem for MMOs today is you are often more an observer than a player. Why are console games today so popular? Because many of these games have a high level of player participation and skill. ("skill" being a debatable word!) Why not combine the MMO genre with the action-game genre? I would love to see an UNREAL-style MMO (...in a fantasy setting) Problem: How do you use the limits of the mouse and keyboard to produce an XBox360-style game? Or would the game require a controller? What combinations of mouse/keyboard strokes would cause the shield block, dodge, etc.?
10. The prospect of losing your items would make your actions in the game have more meaning.
This type of MMO is ideal to many people, however most developers aren't going to risk the time and commitment designing such a game as there would be niche market for it.
First, let me start with a list of games I've played longer than a couple weeks (so you know that I have a clue)-
Everquest
Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Dark Age of Camelot
Horizons
City of Heroes
Starwars Galaxies
Final Fantasy XI
World of Warcraft
Guildwars
A lot of what you described sounds very much to me like what the original Starwars Galaxies was... except for the "friendly town" part. Basically, they totally trashed that concept and rebuilt it to be more... uh...
well.. easy to program.
From what I saw, after returning to it from a 2 year hiatus was that they ruined the game. Sure, they have starships but so what?
To me, what you seem to want is a very player vs. player atmosphere with little or no need for npc's, except as background "color". That's all fine and good if that's the type of player you are.
I personally do enjoy challenging npc's. I know that npc AI can be remarkable, as demonstrated in the previously mentioned SWG... it doesn't have to be lame and predictable like so many EQ clones are.
I would like to see games where your actions effect events in the future, where you impact your fate and the fates of others. However, I can see that as a potential programming nightmare, even greater than what SWG was..
Oh well... I keep beta testing and hoping, but so far, over this last 4 months I'm just bored out of my skull with what's been out there.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Vagabond Spirit in search of a home... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Which FF Character Are You?
Comments
Wow. (Note that the second 'w' is not capital, so I can't be talking about the game).
Just for clarification, all blue text was mine. And one thing I love about this site is that it has given me hope that if... no, when, I make this game happen, I'll have an audience.
I like your ideas. I don't think we should try to make "the" perfect game, because that is quite improbable. If we keep supporting all these foolish middle-age mmo's thats all the developers will MAKE! Support games like this if you ever want to play something different, otherwise it is EQ clones forever.
LESS LEVELING, MORE PLAY EXPERIENCE! WE DO NOT PLAY GAMES TO LEVEL TO XX AND THEN DO NOTHING.
Mihos, I like the way you're thinking.
Anyone who is serious about voicing their opinions on how MMOs should be set up, Evilshadow has set up a great forum:
http://nationofshadows.net/GameStorming/index.php
We are discussing how to create a "unique" MMO, fixing problems with today's MMOs and creating new concepts.
Commenting on your ideas:
1. Interesting idea. I was toying with a similar idea (monsters leveling), but your idea of congregating into societies is worth a closer look! As mentioned previously, the AI would be difficult, but could be worth the effort.
2. The game I am envisioning has NO NPCs whatsoever, with the exception of a dozen or so "higher powers". 99% of all useful items are produced by player crafters. Monsters would drop crafting material and a few other odds and ends.
3. Predetermined guilds and factions are a NO-NO!
4. This feature will need to be very carefully designed. The problem with no-holds-barred town destruction is that in an online game, the destruction can take place in seconds, rather than months it may take in real life. As someone mentioned previously, what took you months of in-game playtime to build up could be destroyed in an instant. I like the concept of being able to destroy anything at any time with no rules, but I don't think it will pan out when put into action. I will consider this further, but off the top of my head, perhaps each pounding that a guild takes would weaken it somewhat.
5. Don't know about this feature. I like the experience from player combat, but from the description I don't know about the given quests. But then again, it's just my opinion. Maybe when fully developed it could be an excellent system.
6. Devs paying attention to what the players are doing is an excellent idea. I don't know if the players should primarily control the storyline, but they should definitely have a huge effect on it. Instead of being in a story, they help create the story. Though some MMOs claim this is the case, in reality players haven't had a huge effect on the storylines.
7. World quests...I was thinking the same thing, but instead of "quests" I was thinking "goals". [but like I said...same thing!] For example, in the beginning, the players know little or nothing about the strange world they are living in...Why? Haven't worked that out yet, lol, but perhaps they were snatched from their worlds and placed on this one for some purpose. (Whatever, it's not important to my point!) But little by little they would find clues to why they are here and clues about various objects and happenings in the world. Numerous "goals" can exist in the world and players can discover these goals. One, for instance, may be that an ancient evil has been awakened by something some players did. The players would not KNOW they awakened this evil in the beginning of the world, but they would find clues hinting at what had happened. Perhaps this would lead them to a search to piece together an ancient artifact to defeat this evil. This may take three or four real months (or more) to accomplish. Numerous events such as this would happen simultaneously, some more critical than others.
8. I do not like player classes. I think that a character should be able to learn whatever combination of skills they want, limited by certain constraints (i.e. limited number of skill points). Question: How do you prevent the game from becoming a grinding contest? Why not just create a bot that causes your sword fighting character to hack at bunnies with his sword all day? Grinding is one the WORST effects in MMOs. How do we design a game where grinding will not advance your character?
9. "Twitch" style gaming: I like this idea. Enough people have expressed the desire for something like this that I think it's they way to go. One problem for MMOs today is you are often more an observer than a player. Why are console games today so popular? Because many of these games have a high level of player participation and skill. ("skill" being a debatable word!) Why not combine the MMO genre with the action-game genre? I would love to see an UNREAL-style MMO (...in a fantasy setting) Problem: How do you use the limits of the mouse and keyboard to produce an XBox360-style game? Or would the game require a controller? What combinations of mouse/keyboard strokes would cause the shield block, dodge, etc.?
10. The prospect of losing your items would make your actions in the game have more meaning.
Overall great ideas Milhos!
This type of MMO is ideal to many people, however most developers aren't going to risk the time and commitment designing such a game as there would be niche market for it.
First, let me start with a list of games I've played longer than a couple weeks (so you know that I have a clue)-
A lot of what you described sounds very much to me like what the original Starwars Galaxies was... except for the "friendly town" part. Basically, they totally trashed that concept and rebuilt it to be more... uh...
well.. easy to program.
From what I saw, after returning to it from a 2 year hiatus was that they ruined the game. Sure, they have starships but so what?
To me, what you seem to want is a very player vs. player atmosphere with little or no need for npc's, except as background "color". That's all fine and good if that's the type of player you are.
I personally do enjoy challenging npc's. I know that npc AI can be remarkable, as demonstrated in the previously mentioned SWG... it doesn't have to be lame and predictable like so many EQ clones are.
I would like to see games where your actions effect events in the future, where you impact your fate and the fates of others. However, I can see that as a potential programming nightmare, even greater than what SWG was..
Oh well... I keep beta testing and hoping, but so far, over this last 4 months I'm just bored out of my skull with what's been out there.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Vagabond Spirit in search of a home...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Which FF Character Are You?