PS: The game is not called Ragnarok:Colossus but I'll let @ShankTheTank go do some research to see what the name is. So embarrassing... 3 days late and gets the name wrong. /sigh
Ya know.. it's a damn good thing these game designers are not as spiteful as I would be, because if I was making a game, and got a secured backer that waved money in my face and wanted me to add some stuff, I think I would do it, and for the people that wanted a refund, I would keep their info on file and not only lock their accounts from any deals or offers, I'd also charge them a 75% re-processing fee if they wanted to buy the game again.
Which might also be why I was not allowed to work in billings.
Haha yeah actually doing this would ensure that you would never work as a game developer period.
MMO Game devs have to bow down to players even if they cant stand the thought of it, such is the nature of designing the gamea for masses.
Just because someone waves money in your face - it doesnt mean you should bite though.
Just my 2c.
I think the real issue is that Jacobs doubts that CU can succeed and is trying alternatives to save face
I really think it was the 7 million they waved in his face and said "Make a BR, they are profitable"
I mean.. this is just me, but I would be like "Want Loot Boxes and Panty Shots with that?"
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
An EDF style game? This is funny because watch this become the most popular iteration of the Camelot series, CU will be delayed and then canceled in place of more development on this lol.
Beware Patheon ROTF backers, this is our future and present.
You just wait! Next dev stream they'll show the same dungeon again and talk about building community! Who needs content when you can talk about being the good guys instead!
Ya know.. it's a damn good thing these game designers are not as spiteful as I would be, because if I was making a game, and got a secured backer that waved money in my face and wanted me to add some stuff, I think I would do it, and for the people that wanted a refund, I would keep their info on file and not only lock their accounts from any deals or offers, I'd also charge them a 75% re-processing fee if they wanted to buy the game again.
Which might also be why I was not allowed to work in billings.
Haha yeah actually doing this would ensure that you would never work as a game developer period.
MMO Game devs have to bow down to players even if they cant stand the thought of it, such is the nature of designing the gamea for masses.
Just because someone waves money in your face - it doesnt mean you should bite though.
Just my 2c.
I think the real issue is that Jacobs doubts that CU can succeed and is trying alternatives to save face
Couldn't disagree more. I think that they need more resources to finish it well, and this is a way that they can release something with mostly duplicated work. This will get them a money infusion.
My guess is that they wont have enough money for the 1.5 more years that cu needs to polish and finish.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
I backed at the highest level because I believed in the Vision of Camelot Unchained. Not some game engine, not some carebear PvE game, the main game Camelot Unchained. I put my refund in and I am doing everything in my power to ensure every backer who wants a refund gets it. This guy Marc Jacobs is a complete clown. His glory days are over and as far as I am concerned, so is his company City State Games. Investors will soon find out what we all know...he will screw you over the moment he gets the opportunity.
I paid in, but have never worried about the timeline. It releases when it releases and now I get a second game for free.
Don't understand what there is for donors to be upset about when their tier states ni refunds. They new signing up, the money was written off in their own minds at that time.
The biggest question is where is CU at? This announcement is not an encouraging sign that it is ready anytime soon.
CU has missed the window of opportunity - now, if it ever releases, it will be completely irrelevant.
So you can safely scratch CU off the list - it's a lost cause.
The reality is - city state is incapable of doing anything on time or that is worth doing.
Tower defense game.... lol, seriously?
To the contrary, there's always room for another great game. There's never a need for another bad one. If Camelot Unchained doesn't launch until 2025, but is a great game when it does launch, it will find a market. And if it's terrible, then it will be irrelevant no matter when it launches, and would have been in 2015, too.
Whatever happens this sure made a couple of really interesting MMO news days. All the hopes and dreams crushed(including mine) in one week. That takes some serious skill to screw yourself over that hard in such a short time and it almost mirrors NGE Smedley with the God-like behavior and not giving a shit about the players. Reading through all the comments on mop and how he tries to cover his own ass with literally days of spin made me very sad for him. He was completely trusted by all of his supporters then probably lost 50% with one decision in one day. Many like myself will probably never ask for a refund cause I considered it a donation but from this point on won't believe a single silver tongued word that guy ever says again. Even Garriott with his asset flip game made an actual playable game while managing to retain a small % of his rep so all he has to do is lay low for a while. This guy though...
Someone should make a meme of CF guys laughing at both New World and CU to lighten the mood up a bit.
Another take on this situation though after watching the stream two times(yes, 6 hours) and reading through all the replies on mop is that it all seems like an engine pitch to potential buyers. Every question related to Ragnarok gets an enthusiastic response and speaking about CU always has a "down" tone. There is so much "what the engine can do" in that stream and in the mop replies that you may forget all about CU unless you listen/look really closely. Watch that stream or read mop replies and take a shot each time he mentions anything about the engine and take two when he mentions having "thousands of npc's". How long since he has done a long CU stream but all of a sudden a 3 hour stream + 30+ hours on mop replying to people. That looks like some serious effort being put forward not to reassure backers because NO BETA or launch dates were spoken of for CU it was mostly a new game + engine pitch. "Adding things as easy as a click" < this is not communication for players it's for developers".
Toward the end of the stream he says Ragnarok will be out on console in 1 year, he's not selling the game he's showing a tech demo to potential buyers showing off what the engine can do and who better to do that than the CEO. He also mentions adding microtransactions like cosmetics and heroes, that is music to some developers ears along with that "adding things to the game with a click" I mentioned above. MJ said we aren't just going to add Vikings we are going to "add all types of heroes" what? that is a message to other developer's that "you can add any hero you want". Imagine that same game with Marvel, DC, LoL, Paladins characters hint hint.
I mentioned in other threads that crowdfunded games possibly were all going for buyouts because the same year most of these ks MMO'S launched their crowd campaigns was the same year Tencent bought epic for 300mil.. I think for the case of CU he never intended to sell CU but instead the engine that backers partially paid for.
If you remember when CU first had its crowdfunded campaign the big goal was 2mil and he said when he hits 2mil he would put 5mil of his own money into the project. What were the conditions of that exactly? At once? Over time? Over ten years? How the heck can anyone verify if that ever happens anyway? What if 2mil was what was needed to build the engine all along. If the investor is his sister how the heck can we be sure even that money went toward CU cause that's all in the family. All those "private funds" that he speaks so much of could've been going 100% to the engine and 0% to CU. That empty office in the background with no computers on in every stream or anyone ever sitting at them wtf is that? A stage/set? At the most in all the streams I've seen there are only 5 different people and MJ has said his son is his QA.
Let us speculate though that maybe someone like Tencent watched that engine pitch stream and decide they want to buy it to use as a tool to take out Blizz lol then what happens to CU? Wouldn't it be easy for CSE just to refund every backers pledge with the buyout money and say "sorry, were weren't able to complete the project but don't worry here's your refund".
When you back a game before its finished, you take a gamble. Its like going to the casino. You wouldnt bet 50 bucks on 21 in roulette and then when you lose cry for a refund would ya?
Yeah game is 7 years in the making but Mark was upfront about taking as long as it needed to make the game right. That being said is a potential 3-10+ years considering the very small team they started with and still small till this day, while also creating their own tech from scratch!
But hey lets all be whine bags like my 5 year old!
Omg this, omg that, how about stfu and be a responsible adult with your money.
Think about it, all the tech they created for CU, they just used and PROVED they can also make a side game in less than 7 months (one that doesnt take as much detail as CU). This has HUGE implications on what they can deliver on in the future of CU. You all must be 15 years old with all those negative entitled comments. Get a life and a job or play another game for now. CU WILL come out and you will love it. That I am sure, 100%
Oh my God. Oh my GOD! We're years behind schedule, all of the money has been squandered, and I have millions of my own money invested in this disaster. How can I get my money back? Wait...I have an idea! But it would screw over the original CU backers and destroy the goodwill they have towards CU and me. So what's it going to be, my reputation or my millions? Eh, fuck it...
We'll, I hope CU does come out, is a great game, and is a success.
Most everyone disagrees with me, but I would rather have a good game with bugs and needing polishing sooner, than no game or this mythical perfect game later. Almost all my favorite games had a really bad and buggy release - hell Troika, my favorite developer closed because they released fantastic, but buggy, games. Its the exact nature of the games I like. Complicated rpgs with complicated systems will release buggy.
But, devs only get one shot at release (usually, I think the FF mmorpg had two shots). And if it isn't a great release with few issues, the community will trash it. Most people are mindless NPCS - they don't think for themselves, they like what they are told to like, etc. As soon as the negative Nancy review bombers hit a little mass, its over for the game. All that hard work, blood, sweat, and tears right down the shitter.
I can see why CU devs want to extend development, increase revenue for development, and release a product that will not get review bombed by the negative nancies, thus ignored by the NPCS who will just take as gospel the game is trash because they were told so.
It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for CU. The real enemy here is really people being mindless NPCs blindly following the hate-heards.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Theres a few things that don't look good to me, not that I have any dog in this fight. BUT I mean when you are not even close to completing one game, no news on any launch in the distant future let alone near, all the sudden you change scope to a new game I would be very worried right now if I was a backer of CU.
THEN if I was considering backing this new project and saw what they did/are doing with CU I would be very hesitant.
Another take on this situation though after watching the stream two times(yes, 6 hours) and reading through all the replies on mop is that it all seems like an engine pitch to potential buyers. Every question related to Ragnarok gets an enthusiastic response and speaking about CU always has a "down" tone. There is so much "what the engine can do" in that stream and in the mop replies that you may forget all about CU unless you listen/look really closely. Watch that stream or read mop replies and take a shot each time he mentions anything about the engine and take two when he mentions having "thousands of npc's". How long since he has done a long CU stream but all of a sudden a 3 hour stream + 30+ hours on mop replying to people. That looks like some serious effort being put forward not to reassure backers because NO BETA or launch dates were spoken of for CU it was mostly a new game + engine pitch. "Adding things as easy as a click" < this is not communication for players it's for developers".
You know what would really show off the engine and put it in a great light? Making Camelot Unchained into a great game that uses the engine to do a bunch of cool stuff. Conversely, if an engine is built from scratch for a particular game and doesn't even work well for the game that it was specifically built for, then the engine is garbage.
There's nothing wrong with trying to reuse an engine for several games. But the way to prove that people can make great games based on your engine is to make a great game based on your engine.
Another take on this situation though after watching the stream two times(yes, 6 hours) and reading through all the replies on mop is that it all seems like an engine pitch to potential buyers. Every question related to Ragnarok gets an enthusiastic response and speaking about CU always has a "down" tone. There is so much "what the engine can do" in that stream and in the mop replies that you may forget all about CU unless you listen/look really closely. Watch that stream or read mop replies and take a shot each time he mentions anything about the engine and take two when he mentions having "thousands of npc's". How long since he has done a long CU stream but all of a sudden a 3 hour stream + 30+ hours on mop replying to people. That looks like some serious effort being put forward not to reassure backers because NO BETA or launch dates were spoken of for CU it was mostly a new game + engine pitch. "Adding things as easy as a click" < this is not communication for players it's for developers".
You know what would really show off the engine and put it in a great light? Making Camelot Unchained into a great game that uses the engine to do a bunch of cool stuff. Conversely, if an engine is built from scratch for a particular game and doesn't even work well for the game that it was specifically built for, then the engine is garbage.
There's nothing wrong with trying to reuse an engine for several games. But the way to prove that people can make great games based on your engine is to make a great game based on your engine.
It's pretty clear at this point that CU was not that great game, and never was going to be under the previous conditions. We'll have to wait (for who knows how long) to see if this new angle changes that. But if they couldn't make CU a good game, or a game at all, before, I have trouble believing that that's going to change now. Putting effort into a new game somehow miraculously does things for CU that a dedicated team couldn't do in 7 years? I guess stranger things have happened in the MMO world, bit I can't think of any right now.
It looks like bankers have discovered gaming. Take all the money and deliver nothing in return. Keep doing it year after year. Leeches.
You know banks give you interest, right?
Oh, a topic near and dear to my heart...
Banks actually operate on whats called a 'fractional reserve system' which means they can loan out anywhere from 10 to 1000 times the money they have on hand- In other words, money that doesnt even exist...While collecting a nice APR on the non existent money they loaned.
The 'reserve' is what they have on hand- A 'fraction' of what they can loan.
Say for instance I have $1000 in the bank- That means the bank can make a loan of at least $10,000 to someone else based on my small deposit (it all varies by location) and pay me a pittance of interest on the real and tangible money I have deposited...They loan what doesnt exist.
Its even shadier than I'm getting at here- Its the crux of a debt based monetary system and not something I would normally discuss here or that most people wish to read- However...
edit- This is a very nicely done cartoon that explains it (for those interested) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AC6RSau7r8 but this rabbit hole runs deep. Lots is out there on subject in books and video but I believe this simple cartoon is the easiest to grasp... It gets complex (and scary) the deeper you dig...
Another take on this situation though after watching the stream two times(yes, 6 hours) and reading through all the replies on mop is that it all seems like an engine pitch to potential buyers. Every question related to Ragnarok gets an enthusiastic response and speaking about CU always has a "down" tone. There is so much "what the engine can do" in that stream and in the mop replies that you may forget all about CU unless you listen/look really closely. Watch that stream or read mop replies and take a shot each time he mentions anything about the engine and take two when he mentions having "thousands of npc's". How long since he has done a long CU stream but all of a sudden a 3 hour stream + 30+ hours on mop replying to people. That looks like some serious effort being put forward not to reassure backers because NO BETA or launch dates were spoken of for CU it was mostly a new game + engine pitch. "Adding things as easy as a click" < this is not communication for players it's for developers".
You know what would really show off the engine and put it in a great light? Making Camelot Unchained into a great game that uses the engine to do a bunch of cool stuff. Conversely, if an engine is built from scratch for a particular game and doesn't even work well for the game that it was specifically built for, then the engine is garbage.
There's nothing wrong with trying to reuse an engine for several games. But the way to prove that people can make great games based on your engine is to make a great game based on your engine.
Why put in all the extra effort when you can showcase everything the engine can do with a one zone tower defense demo?
Comments
I mean.. this is just me, but I would be like "Want Loot Boxes and Panty Shots with that?"
Couldn't disagree more. I think that they need more resources to finish it well, and this is a way that they can release something with mostly duplicated work. This will get them a money infusion.
My guess is that they wont have enough money for the 1.5 more years that cu needs to polish and finish.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Enough said ..
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Someone should make a meme of CF guys laughing at both New World and CU to lighten the mood up a bit.
Toward the end of the stream he says Ragnarok will be out on console in 1 year, he's not selling the game he's showing a tech demo to potential buyers showing off what the engine can do and who better to do that than the CEO. He also mentions adding microtransactions like cosmetics and heroes, that is music to some developers ears along with that "adding things to the game with a click" I mentioned above. MJ said we aren't just going to add Vikings we are going to "add all types of heroes" what? that is a message to other developer's that "you can add any hero you want". Imagine that same game with Marvel, DC, LoL, Paladins characters hint hint.
I mentioned in other threads that crowdfunded games possibly were all going for buyouts because the same year most of these ks MMO'S launched their crowd campaigns was the same year Tencent bought epic for 300mil.. I think for the case of CU he never intended to sell CU but instead the engine that backers partially paid for.
If you remember when CU first had its crowdfunded campaign the big goal was 2mil and he said when he hits 2mil he would put 5mil of his own money into the project. What were the conditions of that exactly? At once? Over time? Over ten years? How the heck can anyone verify if that ever happens anyway? What if 2mil was what was needed to build the engine all along. If the investor is his sister how the heck can we be sure even that money went toward CU cause that's all in the family. All those "private funds" that he speaks so much of could've been going 100% to the engine and 0% to CU. That empty office in the background with no computers on in every stream or anyone ever sitting at them wtf is that? A stage/set? At the most in all the streams I've seen there are only 5 different people and MJ has said his son is his QA.
Let us speculate though that maybe someone like Tencent watched that engine pitch stream and decide they want to buy it to use as a tool to take out Blizz lol then what happens to CU? Wouldn't it be easy for CSE just to refund every backers pledge with the buyout money and say "sorry, were weren't able to complete the project but don't worry here's your refund".
Yeah game is 7 years in the making but Mark was upfront about taking as long as it needed to make the game right. That being said is a potential 3-10+ years considering the very small team they started with and still small till this day, while also creating their own tech from scratch!
But hey lets all be whine bags like my 5 year old!
Omg this, omg that, how about stfu and be a responsible adult with your money.
Think about it, all the tech they created for CU, they just used and PROVED they can also make a side game in less than 7 months (one that doesnt take as much detail as CU). This has HUGE implications on what they can deliver on in the future of CU. You all must be 15 years old with all those negative entitled comments. Get a life and a job or play another game for now. CU WILL come out and you will love it. That I am sure, 100%
I'll go one further, I always assume the worst with these things so sure, bring it on. I knew that failure was a possibility from the start.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Most everyone disagrees with me, but I would rather have a good game with bugs and needing polishing sooner, than no game or this mythical perfect game later. Almost all my favorite games had a really bad and buggy release - hell Troika, my favorite developer closed because they released fantastic, but buggy, games. Its the exact nature of the games I like. Complicated rpgs with complicated systems will release buggy.
But, devs only get one shot at release (usually, I think the FF mmorpg had two shots). And if it isn't a great release with few issues, the community will trash it. Most people are mindless NPCS - they don't think for themselves, they like what they are told to like, etc. As soon as the negative Nancy review bombers hit a little mass, its over for the game. All that hard work, blood, sweat, and tears right down the shitter.
I can see why CU devs want to extend development, increase revenue for development, and release a product that will not get review bombed by the negative nancies, thus ignored by the NPCS who will just take as gospel the game is trash because they were told so.
It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for CU. The real enemy here is really people being mindless NPCs blindly following the hate-heards.
Thing is , will what's launched be in a shape good enough to actually be fun? For SotA it hasn't turned out so well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
THEN if I was considering backing this new project and saw what they did/are doing with CU I would be very hesitant.
There's nothing wrong with trying to reuse an engine for several games. But the way to prove that people can make great games based on your engine is to make a great game based on your engine.
You know banks give you interest, right?
Banks actually operate on whats called a 'fractional reserve system' which means they can loan out anywhere from 10 to 1000 times the money they have on hand- In other words, money that doesnt even exist...While collecting a nice APR on the non existent money they loaned.
The 'reserve' is what they have on hand- A 'fraction' of what they can loan.
Say for instance I have $1000 in the bank- That means the bank can make a loan of at least $10,000 to someone else based on my small deposit (it all varies by location) and pay me a pittance of interest on the real and tangible money I have deposited...They loan what doesnt exist.
Its even shadier than I'm getting at here- Its the crux of a debt based monetary system and not something I would normally discuss here or that most people wish to read- However...
edit- This is a very nicely done cartoon that explains it (for those interested) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AC6RSau7r8 but this rabbit hole runs deep. Lots is out there on subject in books and video but I believe this simple cartoon is the easiest to grasp... It gets complex (and scary) the deeper you dig...