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A REAL debate: Collision Detection Yay/nay
Bent
Member CommonPosts: 581
Taken from the MMORPG.com preview
"Another neat thing players will immediately notice in Warhammer Online's combat is collision detection. They’re not yet sure if they’ll keep it for the final release, but it is there now. Players cannot run through enemies characters in RvR situations."
Pros
Collision detection(CD) makes PvP much more realistic, lets the warrior body block enemy warriors to slow their charge at the casters ... and stops "exploits" like jousting or run-throughs. AKA caster must be facing their target... their target suddenly running through them to break LOS sucks. Collision dectection would stop this.
I have said for some time, It isn't "Real PvP unless there is CD," but that is just my opinion.
Cons
The downside is it makes PvP harder to masters. People that aren't used to CD will likely be upset when a big warrior comes after them and they find they can't just run through him and keep on running away. Or they are surrounded and discover they can't run through the enemey to escape. The biggest con though is CD EATS bandwidth. Ultterly rampages bandwidth use. This is why most games with CD are instanced. Planetside though not admittedly instanced, really is, as it has population locks for each continent. Games that aren't instanced and have CD will lag at much lower numbers than games without CD. 100 people in the same area with CD flag will lag badly... with CD it is probably still playable. This is just based on my experience to date.
Keep in mind the blurb above doesn't tell all. If CD is only on in PvP areas, and only flagged for the enemy(aka you can run through allies) it may not be that much of a bandwidth hog.
This is an important debate because it is undecided whether CD will stay through release. The imput and opinions of the mass still have time to be heard.
Comments
I would also think that having the opposition run through you would be particularly frustrating for those that do not have the highest end pc's and suffer from any slight lag against an opponet, thereby losing track of where the opponent went because they didn't see them run through them. I am not really sure how often something like this happens though. Just a thought of something that may be an issue due to lag even without CD.
I think, for the sake of gameplay and resource management, there is no need for CD for allies. So you can run trough your own fellow alliance players without much problem, but CD for the enemies would be a ncie feature resolving some of the pressing problems nowadays PvPers face, Mainly the low survivability of support classes and casters.
My wife played a fire wizard in DaoC and now plays a priest in WoW. Classes defined by their low HP and high damage/healing in combat.
As such, they are targeted FIRST and there is little the others can do to stop that massive tauren from crushing her poor skull. Little armor and little hit points means couple hits and no more healing/high damage.
Having CD would make fights more tactical and, especially, gives some uses to these classes. Sure, ranged fighters can target them, but it is usually the rush of the melee guys, like rogues and tanks, that cut down robe-classes.
So, I'm all up for having CD if the devs can actually make it work decently.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I glimpsed on a few articles on collision detection. Most of them such as the wikipedia entry deals with how it is applied rather than if it's bandwidth intensive or not. Most of the topics concentrated on resource consumption.
With the coming of physics processors and next generation video cards I'm sure that collision detection will be used to enhance game play. On how it's applied and how elegant it's implementation will be left to the mathematicians and game designers.
Volkamar brought up a good tactical scenario where the priest is protected behind a wall of warriors. What a perfect example where CD could be used to enrich the game play.
I agree with you Bent. The best implementation might be in limited areas such as PvP zones. Player cities where no pvp occurs would be collision detection free, for the sake of convenience.
I'm for implementing collision detection wherever there is PvP.
I like it, I definately wouldn't want friendly collision detection since it's so easy to just block someome in a corner or block off a vendor/mailbox/doorway that lots of people want to use, or to mess your teammates up from lag. Enemy CD should make the combats feel a bit less silly, none of the 'keep running through the mage so he can't finish his spell' or 'run through, mouse spin, backstab in less than a second' that you see a lot of in games like WOW, though there should still be plenty of scope for maneuver. Anything that helps move out of the 'tank who uses taunts to hold mobs and healer who keeps healing the damage to the tank' setup that so many games stick to would be great, especially since this is primarily a PVP game - even dumb players know enough to 'kill the one in the dress first'.
I don't think the different races spend a lot of time in each other's cities in the Warhammer backstory, so I don't think there's any cities where you have both enemy races but no PVP. I agree that if there are cities that both sides are in but not actively fighting then there shouldn't be CD, since it would be silly that some anoying goblin could block you in a building and you couldn't fight your way out.
I like it....
Collision detection adds to the realism of a game. I loved it in EQ and planetside. The only thing to watch out for is griefers in confined areas will block the way on purpose and if they are friendlies there is nothing that can be done about it.
If they were to make a way for the ability to push against others like perhaps if 2 players push against one it should drive him backward. Then people could just push griefers out of the way. Also would make combat more realistic.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
strange that this is being talked about like its new?
is it not implimented in games such as lineage 2 and guildwars?
I think its a good thing.
have it only in pvp.
How silly is it that in wow you spend 80% of combat jumping over people or jumping in the air to cast spells? I hope there is a /stick command in combat. This will help shield using classes, and dual weilding classes, Because if you do not have a stick command people will just use "jousting" tactics leaving only frontloaded slow 2handed damage to be the best.
I like the idea of colision detection because I am always a heal only healer and I hate getting steamrolled. This happened in UO and happens waay to much in WOW where warriors can streak like lightning through 18 people around a corner down into a ravine and up the other side into your face and 2 shot you as long as you are within 20 yards. Having CD lets my have a pure tank do that he is supposed to do and protect my neck while I spam heals on my casters and Damage dealing tanks. Now they just have to make sure they add heavy tanks can block attacks for you option and we got ourselves a very nice set of tactics to be used during gameplay.
Ventodifronda
It'd be interesting. Nobody else is doing it.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I'm not sold on this idea. In addition to the potential latency problems, there is also a whole new form of griefing to watch out for -some high level blocking the entrance to a low level area, and that sort of thing. The dev's would have to be very, very careful how they placed objectives to prevent this, adding to development time and cost, and for what benefit really? Sure it's not exactly "real-life" combat simulation, but hey, it's a game and an MMO to boot...nothing about it is real.
With that said though, I voted the third option. It would be cool if implemented properly, but I have to question if the time it takes to do, is really worth the effect. It wouldn't change the game's fun factor either way IMO.
*sigh* No there isn't. Please read the OP again, it clearly mentions that collision detection will only be in PVP-enabled areas. That high level merely blocking an entrance to a low-level area is wasting his time, he could be blowing away the low-levels instead. That ignores the question of whether fighting other players in PVP-enabled areas in a PVP-enabled game can really be termed greifing, especially since this game isn't supposed to have the dramatic ability differences that something like WOW does - and in WOW a group of 5 low 30s characters can easily mop the floor with a 60 if they know what they're doing.
Or they could market the game to people who want PVP, so the players could find the blatantly obvious PVP solution of killing the invader. If there's an objective in a PVP area, why would you not expect to fight other players to get to it? And if the area isn't level capped, then you should be aware of that going into it (though DAOC has bunches of level capped BGs, so I wouldn't be suprised if a really high level couldn't enter the low-level areas). This game is being presented as 80% PVP and only 20% PVE, I think that's shooting for people like me who will rally to destroy an invader blocking an objective rather than complain and moan that they're higher level. It's not like even the toughest heros will take down a regiment on their own in WHFB.
You may not mind techniques like a warrior running back and forth through a priest to keep him from finishing a spell, or a rogue running straight through someome then doing an immediate 180 for a backstab, but a lot of us will be glad to be rid of such things. How many game trailers feature combatants running right through each other have you ever seen, after all - it's just silly. It's not just having them used against you; my two main characters in WOW were a druid and rogue, neither of whom needed long-casting attack spells and both of whom could make good use of the 180 backstab. It also allows for much more sensible 'tanking' in PVP, where a tough guy can actually get in between the enemy and the squishies.
not only that but in DAOC and WoW its pretty gay when ur casting a spell and they use game mechanics against u , by walkthrough you and turning around real fast, it would always intterupt ur shit.... im real happy to see this form of CD in thier game, specially how it is turned on in PVP and off in pve. once again im impressed with mythic
blank u are the man, thats what im talking about
However, as stated, frame-rate and bandwidth are legit concerns. In most games I have played (DAoC, WoW, AC2, WWIIOnline) when you get into a lareg ascale battle FPS drops dramatically and so video lag becomes a huge issue. If they can get around that then CD would be not only openly accepted but a very viable option for them.
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Bazaab
Please read the OP again, it clearly mentions that collision detection will only be in PVP-enabled areas.
Well I guess my question is what are PvP-"enabled" areas? Are you talking instance only like in the PvP scenarios the dev's have mentioned? It was my understanding that much of the game would be pvp-enabled, including the world maps. If the world maps are PvP-enabled, then there is definitely potential for griefing. If you are talking instance only however, then we would need special rules just for the instanced maps? CD NOT enabled in World PvP, but CD enabled in instanced PvP?
I'm simply not sold on this idea, as I'm not looking at it from a "benefits only" standpoint. It's not that I hate the concept of Collision Detection, but I see a potential for a lot of problems, and many of the variables cannot be pulled out of thin air, written down, and avoided. It's something that would have to be discovered over time, but unfortunately the dev's have to make the decision to implement long before then.
Finally, there is alot of conjecture here about how things are going to work in this game, and then fitting in CD to make those scenarios better. However, in my experience, rarely do things workout exactly how fans envisioned them before release.
No, enemy only CD does not add any new 'griefing'. If the high level can block a door, he could also just stand there and blow away the lowbies even if there was no CD. If he's not strong enough to just blow the lowbies away, then he's not strong enough to stay standing in the door when a batch of them bum-rush him.
Plus if you're the kind of person who thinks that the other side engaging in PVP and doing things like guarding objectives is 'griefing', you're not really in the target market for this game. Warhammer is clerly aimed at people who enjoy PVP, not people who are going to complain about 'griefing' if the enemy stands in their way. If a tough orc just standing in the doorway to an objective is your idea of griefing, you don't belong in any game being marketed like this one.
The difference is in a non-CD scenario, I'd get whacked, but eventually I could go on about my way. With CD, I'm stuck where I'm at, even if I offer nothing to the battle. Maybe I'd be better off in an instanced scenario trying to win against even level players, and doing my faction some good, but instead I'm pinned inside some little hut, unable to escape due to the massive black orc in front of the door. Will this situation eventually end......yeah, of course. I will be able to leave at some point, but is it 10 minutes away, an hour, 3 hours...?
Call it griefing, or whatever, but the potential for more problems IS there, whether you want to see it or not. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? Like I've said from the beginning, I'm not sold on the idea. I've never had a problem PvPing with no collision detection in the past, in either FPS or MMO. Not having it has never taken anything away from a game IMO. It could work well if pulled off, tanks protecting healers with a body shield was a good example, but just because something "sounds" good in theory, doesn't mean it will work that way in practice.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Have they announced any raiding at all in this game? I really hope they learned from TOA in DAOC and avoid contaminating the game with that filth, it would be horrible to see something so promising turn into
Just think instead of getting the whine and cheese ready. Take your sword and start swinging at the orc; either he'll get annoyed and kill you, in which case it's exactly as much 'griefing' as any high level fighting a low level, or he won't and you'll eventually run him out of HPs.
Then outline a problem that can't be solved by not being a whiny wimp; your orc blocking the door "problem" either reduces to 'higher level guy kills lower level guy' or you actually start swinging at him and take him down eventually. Your broader scenario, where you'd take your character and just run through a raging battle, completely ignoring the enemy units, is a problem by my standards - you should not be able to just ignore that an enemy army is standing in front of you. "Griefing" someome by not letting them waltz right through an enemy army without even being slowed down is perfectly fine in my book.
The scenario you described takes a lot away from the game for me, where you can just run through a battle of 500 people without even being slowed down by the enemies in their path. And you may like the 'ol WOW fun of running back and forth through casters to stop casting, or of the run-spin-backstab, or the charge-through-twenty-guys, but it should be clear that they take away from the game for most of the people here.