People only do GW2 open world bosses because they are rofl easy mode where you could literally drool on the keyboard and get rewards. You also don't have to talk, coordinate or otherwise associate with other people to get the job done.
Basically, it sounds like you want to do much easier raids and I am guessing want the same reward for completing them as you would for a harder version. Isn't that what people REALLY want? Less work, more reward...
Well people consistently do those meta events despite the fact that there really aren't any rewards to doing so. It's just fun to do. You don't get new high ranking gear from it most of the time and you don't get new skins. It's done because it's fun. And as I said, you see players continue to do this content probably for same reason I do it. Because it's large group content that isn't based on some hard core difficulties and I always know there's going to be people there when I show up.
People do it for fun? I don't think so. I don't remember what the rewards exactly are, but people do it for that reason alone.
Are you seriously trying to say that people go around and pew pew these same bosses that take like 2 minutes and have absolutely no chance of failing because it's 'fun'? Why doesn't anyone do the harder bosses like triple trouble or teq (although he's probably easier now that most people know the mechanics)? Why don't people do the same bosses 2, 3, 100 times a day for 'fun'?
No, people do these things cause they are face roll easy with no need to communicate and they get rewards for basically doing nothing.
People only do GW2 open world bosses because they are rofl easy mode where you could literally drool on the keyboard and get rewards. You also don't have to talk, coordinate or otherwise associate with other people to get the job done.
Basically, it sounds like you want to do much easier raids and I am guessing want the same reward for completing them as you would for a harder version. Isn't that what people REALLY want? Less work, more reward...
Well people consistently do those meta events despite the fact that there really aren't any rewards to doing so. It's just fun to do. You don't get new high ranking gear from it most of the time and you don't get new skins. It's done because it's fun. And as I said, you see players continue to do this content probably for same reason I do it. Because it's large group content that isn't based on some hard core difficulties and I always know there's going to be people there when I show up.
People do it for fun? I don't think so. I don't remember what the rewards exactly are, but people do it for that reason alone.
Are you seriously trying to say that people go around and pew pew these same bosses that take like 2 minutes and have absolutely no chance of failing because it's 'fun'? Why doesn't anyone do the harder bosses like triple trouble or teq (although he's probably easier now that most people know the mechanics)? Why don't people do the same bosses 2, 3, 100 times a day for 'fun'?
No, people do these things cause they are face roll easy with no need to communicate and they get rewards for basically doing nothing.
People will always have their own reasons, but from my experience its just something to do. It doesn't really take much effort and it can be fun. Like in gw2 when someone spawns a bounty boss I like to go over there and help kill it.
Every boss or mob has a chance to drop a precursor to make a legendary weapon. Like I got a the dagger precursor weapon after killing a random ghost mob in Ascalon a few months ago.
Theres also that precursor crafting journey to make all of the legendary weapons in the game. Each weapon will task you to go and re-visit older locations to either kill bosses or finish events in order to acquire an item that will be used in crafting the pre. So there are reasons people will go back and do these events.
I've even got two friends who hang around kessex hills all the time doing all the events there just for fun. They tell me thats their home area in gw2. I make fun of them all the time for it. Personally, I don't really care about that area, but idk people are weird and will find reasons to do stuff others may see no appeal in.
People only do GW2 open world bosses because they are rofl easy mode where you could literally drool on the keyboard and get rewards. You also don't have to talk, coordinate or otherwise associate with other people to get the job done.
Basically, it sounds like you want to do much easier raids and I am guessing want the same reward for completing them as you would for a harder version. Isn't that what people REALLY want? Less work, more reward...
Well people consistently do those meta events despite the fact that there really aren't any rewards to doing so. It's just fun to do. You don't get new high ranking gear from it most of the time and you don't get new skins. It's done because it's fun. And as I said, you see players continue to do this content probably for same reason I do it. Because it's large group content that isn't based on some hard core difficulties and I always know there's going to be people there when I show up.
People do it for fun? I don't think so. I don't remember what the rewards exactly are, but people do it for that reason alone.
Are you seriously trying to say that people go around and pew pew these same bosses that take like 2 minutes and have absolutely no chance of failing because it's 'fun'? Why doesn't anyone do the harder bosses like triple trouble or teq (although he's probably easier now that most people know the mechanics)? Why don't people do the same bosses 2, 3, 100 times a day for 'fun'?
No, people do these things cause they are face roll easy with no need to communicate and they get rewards for basically doing nothing.
again, tell me what are the rewards players get from doing all those meta events over and over again consistently if its not for the fun of it?
I been playing since day one, I have never ever got a precursor to drop, ever. I most definitely not playing these events for that, since anything can drop that, from what I hear. I want to know what you think the rewards are for them that make people keep coming back to it, unlike the Raids which population is not doing as well.
I will say this, I don't believe anyone really does raids because it is Fun.
I know for me, when I did raids in EQ and DDO, it was all about the loot. getting the loot and powering up my character was fun and enjoyable.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
That was always a price that players had to pay to get the loot we wanted. This is also why main raid groups or raid guilds would be very closed doors. They also don't want to deal with the pool shitters that Raids attract, which is why you find them commonly in pug raids.
That lack of Raids and Gear Wall, was is originally something that made GW2 such a trend breaker, until they added raids of course, shot themselves in the nuts, and became just another generic MMO.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I tried raiding for a while ub EQ, but I found it to be regimented. It became like a job. I did admire all the work they did. There was incredible technical work behind the scenes for the database, website and coordination of everything. There was real leadership too, the kind that invovled heavy sacrifices. It was like hte real world. Normal groups were nothing like that because you could randomly get some people together with no extra steps, almost no consequences, and for me at least, it should went ok. Raiding, by contrast, is like the military. Everything is veyr organized and you follow orders to a T. You feel a lot smaller. You have to do several raids to acquire enough points to get a chance for the loot. It's really a situation where I felt like I was part of something so big, I just wasn't able to sacrifice that much of myself, even though the reward was very high. Grouping is much more personal, and I feel like whne I group or solo i'm using my own intellect and experience in dynamic ways, whereas in raiding I'm using my intellect to follow exactly orders and regiment. So grouping/soloing is like exploring the frontier personally. Raiding, all too oftne, is like being one of the grunts. Understandable, but not as gratifying.
It was also hard to get into the guild. I had to play hard a long time and reach max levle, and get enough aa's. I think I had to have a magelo setup. Had to do application and create an account on their website. Wasn't admitted immediately. Was like joining the military. They also keep track of you many raids I participated in. Again, it was a lot like a job. MOre than the rest of the game.
I did get a sense of achievement from it. In a raid you have to have a lot of focus on what your orders are and what the leaders are communicating in voice and chat. Over time I acquired some items and it gave me a sense of reward for my work. We also had some r aids where we lost until we won. Those felt good.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
You've been raiding with the wrong people :P
My raids were a lot of fun for all involved. If they weren't fun, we wouldn't have been doing them!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
You've been raiding with the wrong people :P
My raids were a lot of fun for all involved. If they weren't fun, we wouldn't have been doing them!
Everyone thinks that.
No.. really.. No Dis.. but everyone thinks that.
Reality is, people that Raid are there for loot, we show up to do a job, get the raid done, get our loot, and walk away, see you again when the timer resets.
Now to be fair, in EQ, in EQ I only ran with my guild, screw anyone and everyone else, but as you know, EQ was the kind of game where we set raids up days or even a week in advice, so there really was no room for pugging. So I kinda did everything with them, from just framing mobs to shooting the shit in chat and on the forums. That was my home team as it were.
However, in DDO it was very different, the instance aspect did change things a lot. So.. while I still kept mainly to my static of friends/guildmates, I would every so often PuG some raids, often to get an extra run in here and there, because, well that was just how the game worked.
Anyway, If you think your raids were fun.. ask yourself this.. did you group with any of them in a non-raid like situation?
Did you run basic quests with any of them?
If the answer is no.. they didn't think you were fun to be with, chances are they raided with you, because you knew your shit as a leader and could get results even if you were the kind of person they would never sit down and have a beer with.
Just saying.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
You've been raiding with the wrong people :P
My raids were a lot of fun for all involved. If they weren't fun, we wouldn't have been doing them!
Everyone thinks that.
No.. really.. No Dis.. but everyone thinks that.
Reality is, people that Raid are there for loot, we show up to do a job, get the raid done, get our loot, and walk away, see you again when the timer resets.
Now to be fair, in EQ, in EQ I only ran with my guild, screw anyone and everyone else, but as you know, EQ was the kind of game where we set raids up days or even a week in advice, so there really was no room for pugging. So I kinda did everything with them, from just framing mobs to shooting the shit in chat and on the forums. That was my home team as it were.
However, in DDO it was very different, the instance aspect did change things a lot. So.. while I still kept mainly to my static of friends/guildmates, I would every so often PuG some raids, often to get an extra run in here and there, because, well that was just how the game worked.
Anyway, If you think your raids were fun.. ask yourself this.. did you group with any of them in a non-raid like situation?
Did you run basic quests with any of them?
If the answer is no.. they didn't think you were fun to be with, chances are they raided with you, because you knew your shit as a leader and could get results even if you were the kind of person they would never sit down and have a beer with.
Just saying.
I've raided a ton with the intent of helping others and spending time with my guildies. I understand that in some situations it is how you say, but just because you have had that experience doesn't make it the norm. One of my biggest pet peeves are people that project their bad experiences on others as gospel.
I will say this, I don't believe anyone really does raids because it is Fun.
I know for me, when I did raids in EQ and DDO, it was all about the loot. getting the loot and powering up my character was fun and enjoyable.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
That was always a price that players had to pay to get the loot we wanted. This is also why main raid groups or raid guilds would be very closed doors. They also don't want to deal with the pool shitters that Raids attract, which is why you find them commonly in pug raids.
That lack of Raids and Gear Wall, was is originally something that made GW2 such a trend breaker, until they added raids of course, shot themselves in the nuts, and became just another generic MMO.
I do, :shrugs:
How can you say otherwise?
I mean, are you really saying I'm not having fun and I'm there for the... loot which doesn't exist besides glamours because that's now how FF14 gear system works?
I understand your point, but FF14, unlike many other MMOs, have this huge focus on Boss fights. And there are 'normal raids' which consist solely of boss fights.
And alliance raids are so cool. I just can't get enough. People chat a lot during them, sometimes we even create little games within the raid, like doing the fight in a certain way. My friend that is main'ing a healer have this bet with me (my main is a tank role) in which he tries to kill me. He has this pull skill so he keeps trying to drag me into the most nightmarish situation possible, like eating 8 crossed aoe's with vulnerability stacks... He tries, no success so far (kisses my gunblade).
I mean, I agree with the other dude. You haveto find better people to raid because oh man your description of raiding is nightmare inducing.
If the raid gave the same, or even less loot then say, a normal dungeon, would you do it?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
You've been raiding with the wrong people :P
My raids were a lot of fun for all involved. If they weren't fun, we wouldn't have been doing them!
Everyone thinks that.
No.. really.. No Dis.. but everyone thinks that.
Reality is, people that Raid are there for loot, we show up to do a job, get the raid done, get our loot, and walk away, see you again when the timer resets.
Now to be fair, in EQ, in EQ I only ran with my guild, screw anyone and everyone else, but as you know, EQ was the kind of game where we set raids up days or even a week in advice, so there really was no room for pugging. So I kinda did everything with them, from just framing mobs to shooting the shit in chat and on the forums. That was my home team as it were.
However, in DDO it was very different, the instance aspect did change things a lot. So.. while I still kept mainly to my static of friends/guildmates, I would every so often PuG some raids, often to get an extra run in here and there, because, well that was just how the game worked.
Anyway, If you think your raids were fun.. ask yourself this.. did you group with any of them in a non-raid like situation?
Did you run basic quests with any of them?
If the answer is no.. they didn't think you were fun to be with, chances are they raided with you, because you knew your shit as a leader and could get results even if you were the kind of person they would never sit down and have a beer with.
Just saying.
I've raided a ton with the intent of helping others and spending time with my guildies. I understand that in some situations it is how you say, but just because you have had that experience doesn't make it the norm. One of my biggest pet peeves are people that project their bad experiences on others as gospel.
How much have you really PUG raided?
And by PUG, I don't mean, Your Guild let some random pugs into the last spot or two, I mean.. you joined a raid with a bunch of rando's, and just went with them?
How often have you done that?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
You've been raiding with the wrong people :P
My raids were a lot of fun for all involved. If they weren't fun, we wouldn't have been doing them!
Everyone thinks that.
No.. really.. No Dis.. but everyone thinks that.
Reality is, people that Raid are there for loot, we show up to do a job, get the raid done, get our loot, and walk away, see you again when the timer resets.
Now to be fair, in EQ, in EQ I only ran with my guild, screw anyone and everyone else, but as you know, EQ was the kind of game where we set raids up days or even a week in advice, so there really was no room for pugging. So I kinda did everything with them, from just framing mobs to shooting the shit in chat and on the forums. That was my home team as it were.
However, in DDO it was very different, the instance aspect did change things a lot. So.. while I still kept mainly to my static of friends/guildmates, I would every so often PuG some raids, often to get an extra run in here and there, because, well that was just how the game worked.
Anyway, If you think your raids were fun.. ask yourself this.. did you group with any of them in a non-raid like situation?
Did you run basic quests with any of them?
If the answer is no.. they didn't think you were fun to be with, chances are they raided with you, because you knew your shit as a leader and could get results even if you were the kind of person they would never sit down and have a beer with.
Just saying.
I've raided a ton with the intent of helping others and spending time with my guildies. I understand that in some situations it is how you say, but just because you have had that experience doesn't make it the norm. One of my biggest pet peeves are people that project their bad experiences on others as gospel.
How much have you really PUG raided?
And by PUG, I don't mean, Your Guild let some random pugs into the last spot or two, I mean.. you joined a raid with a bunch of rando's, and just went with them?
How often have you done that?
Not many, but that isn't what the focus of your comment was, if I'm reading it correctly. You blanket stated that no one likes raiding because it isn't fun. I've no doubt in my mind that PUG raiding is most likely hot garbage, but my raiding experience in the past in a guild has always been awesome. If it sucked ass or was toxic, I wouldn't have done it. Learning the fight, allowing people to experience it, and actually coming together as a guild has always been why I loved it.
First you use GW2 as an example which is one of the few MMOs that doexn't use the Trinity in their group content, which coincidentally is why 'real Raids' within the game aren't so popular, and also the main reason why I don't play the game.
Second, pointing out that because 'Public Raids' are popular that doesn't mean that is what Real Raiders want.
BDO and GW2 have those (Casual) Public Raid encounters which within the game are really popular, mainly because they are made for non Raiders.
Real Raiders do not even touch those games, because the Raids there are mainly a zerg fest.
I've raided a ton with the intent of helping others and spending time with my guildies. I understand that in some situations it is how you say, but just because you have had that experience doesn't make it the norm. One of my biggest pet peeves are people that project their bad experiences on others as gospel.
How much have you really PUG raided?
And by PUG, I don't mean, Your Guild let some random pugs into the last spot or two, I mean.. you joined a raid with a bunch of rando's, and just went with them?
How often have you done that?
Not many, but that isn't what the focus of your comment was, if I'm reading it correctly. You blanket stated that no one likes raiding because it isn't fun. I've no doubt in my mind that PUG raiding is most likely hot garbage, but my raiding experience in the past in a guild has always been awesome. If it sucked ass or was toxic, I wouldn't have done it. Learning the fight, allowing people to experience it, and actually coming together as a guild has always been why I loved it.
No.
I said, and I am going to quote myself here: I don't believe anyone really does raids because it is Fun
Think about it, when you run with your guild or static group, what makes the raid enjoyable? What is the ideal raid we all want when we show up to raid?
Of course barring the toxic pool shitters, I think it is safe to say that all reasonable players want a Raid that goes Smooth, Fast and Profitable.
I mean, ideally, I can only speak for myself on this one, and pretty much both my guilds in EQ and DDO, but it was commonly known that none of us wanted raids that went fucked up sideways and turned into slogs or wipes.
So based on that, ideally, the whole point of prepping, planning and getting ready to raid was to make the fight go as routinely smooth as possible with the hope that the RNG loot would be the best as possible.
Now again, I don't know the game you frequent, I have no idea how raids worked in your game(s) of choice, but, in DDO, Raids reset every 3 days, and we ran a lot of them every 3 days, across each character we had, for raids like the Shroud, VoN, VoD, HoX, etc, etc, I had done those raids hundreds of times, and I wager that in your guild, there were very few people that wanted these raids to go longer or more problematic than they absolutely had to be, in fact most raids are fram content, with the whole point of doing them is to get the loot.
I mean you can say what you like, but ideally, the best raid runs were the simple, smooth, easy, and fast runs, ergo, unremarkable and entirely forgettable, but over with so that everyone could get back to.... Well.. doing something other then raiding.
Which kinda should be the telltale sign that Raids are not done because they are Fun, they are done for loot.
I guarantee.. if a game put the same loot in other content smaller group content, the raids would die.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I’ve raided for hundreds of hours and did so for many more after my entire guild had all the loot they could want and more dkp than they could spend on their offspecs’ offspec.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I’ve raided for hundreds of hours and did so for many more after my entire guild had all the loot they could want and more dkp than they could spend on their offspecs’ offspec.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
This caught my attention.
"That one Time"
Yes.. but.. that "One" time among a legion of what would be surprisingly forgettable runs?
LOL, raid team moving like an organism.. what game was this you played?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I’ve raided for hundreds of hours and did so for many more after my entire guild had all the loot they could want and more dkp than they could spend on their offspecs’ offspec.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
This caught my attention.
"That one Time"
Yes.. but.. that "One" time among a legion of what would be surprisingly forgettable runs?
LOL, raid team moving like an organism.. what game was this you played?
My experiences mirror lahnmir
Raid team moving like a single organism is the goal of any team-based activity, and it's one I've experienced raiding many times.
First time it happened was in LotRO. I started raid leading for the first time about 3 months after launch and had to rebuild half our raid team. We would spend, on average, 9 hours a week raiding over 3 nights. It was a 12 person raid we focused on and I had about 20 active raiders.
For the first couple of months, there was a massive learning curve - I had to learn how to lead effectively, and we all had to get to know each other.
However, by about 3 months in, we all knew each other's playstyles intimately. I knew how each tank approached the fights, their strengths and weaknesses. I knew which DPSers were aggressive and which were more supportive. And everyone in the raid knew how I liked to lead and how I played.
This would mean that we could enter a fight and not need to communicate - we acted like a single organism, with each "limb" (player) supporting the others without the need for commands.
I then continued to raid with the same group of people for the next 7 years across multiple games. Always, there would be a period of adjustment as we learned new classes / roles and accepted new people into the guild and raid teams, but we'd eventually reach the peak of teamwork.
It always felt awesome.
I do also totally get that this is an experience that is not necessarily available to everyone. It takes a lot of time and dedication to build a team that is this close and a lot of people simply don't have the time or inclination to do so.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I’ve raided for hundreds of hours and did so for many more after my entire guild had all the loot they could want and more dkp than they could spend on their offspecs’ offspec.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
This caught my attention.
"That one Time"
Yes.. but.. that "One" time among a legion of what would be surprisingly forgettable runs?
LOL, raid team moving like an organism.. what game was this you played?
But they weren´'t forgettable runs, they were time spent with my mates. And there were lots of "one" time moments, some even recurring due to certain phrases used our character traits displayed
As for the organism part, if you ask what game that happened in you don't get it. The game doesn't matter, the team does, the knowing eachother does, the push and pull, the support of that one ego, the holding back on others, the picking up the pace, the slowing down. That is what I raided for, the communicating without words, the understanding of roles, people and their character on and offscreen. It really is like learning to dance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I’ve raided for hundreds of hours and did so for many more after my entire guild had all the loot they could want and more dkp than they could spend on their offspecs’ offspec.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
This caught my attention.
"That one Time"
Yes.. but.. that "One" time among a legion of what would be surprisingly forgettable runs?
LOL, raid team moving like an organism.. what game was this you played?
But they weren´'t forgettable runs, they were time spent with my mates. And there were lots of "one" time moments, some even recurring due to certain phrases used our character traits displayed
As for the organism part, if you ask what game that happened in you don't get it. The game doesn't matter, the team does, the knowing eachother does, the push and pull, the support of that one ego, the holding back on others, the picking up the pace, the slowing down. That is what I raided for, the communicating without words, the understanding of roles, people and their character on and offscreen. It really is like learning to dance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
See.. all you have described is the joy of playing with tight knit group of friends.
Here is the reality, If the game does not matter then the raid does not matter, ergo, you were not raiding for the Fun of doing that raid. You had a tight static that you stayed with over several games through several years that you enjoyed playing with, they would have made any game mode fun, You could have been playing an arena game like dead by daylight, or an MOBA like LOL, or BR like Fortnight, and the end result would be the same for you, you would have enjoyed playing with your tight knit teamwork of players made any game or game mode fun.
I stand by what I said. No one Raids for the Fun of it, you do raids for the loot.
You just had a nice static to run with, Congrats. I am happy for you, but that says nothing about the raids themselves.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What find hilarious about this topic, is that the OP talked about Raids and Strike Missions, with the vision of pugs and random people being available to join us and enjoy the content together, where everyone could gather and have fun playing together for the love of the content itself.
And the people talking about how raids are fun, are advocating and extolling the joys being in a exclusive closed group of tight knit players, the very thing that the OP wanted to work against, to allow more open grouping.
Which says a lot of why Raids and that whole idea of that kind of content fails hard in some games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It's loot. It's always been about loot. If it wasn't raiders wouldn't be complaining in WoW if LFR players got the same loot as Mythic (or pretty much any other MMO). I'm not saying Mythic shouldn't provide better rewards but clearly those raiders are not running raids for fun as the main reason.
They run for loot and a far secondary is bragging rights which tends to naturally come with better loot.
I personally don't like raids. It's tedious and because I come from a PnP tabletop background, it's bizarre to see 40+ players taking down one monster. It's always been about a small group of adventurers not an army.
There are definitely people that raid for the difficulty. Try games other than GW2 and you might see this.
I'm certain there are players who like the challenge but I'm certain those same players would cry foul if their challenging content didn't reap corresponding rewards or worse, if others could claim the same rewards for less effort.
To me, when people say they like challenge, what they really mean is achievement. And to me, achievement means rewarding better loot. Is there any raiding environment that doesn't offer progressively better loot for harder content? I can't think of any.
I’ve raided for hundreds of hours and did so for many more after my entire guild had all the loot they could want and more dkp than they could spend on their offspecs’ offspec.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
This caught my attention.
"That one Time"
Yes.. but.. that "One" time among a legion of what would be surprisingly forgettable runs?
LOL, raid team moving like an organism.. what game was this you played?
But they weren´'t forgettable runs, they were time spent with my mates. And there were lots of "one" time moments, some even recurring due to certain phrases used our character traits displayed
As for the organism part, if you ask what game that happened in you don't get it. The game doesn't matter, the team does, the knowing eachother does, the push and pull, the support of that one ego, the holding back on others, the picking up the pace, the slowing down. That is what I raided for, the communicating without words, the understanding of roles, people and their character on and offscreen. It really is like learning to dance.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
See.. all you have described is the joy of playing with tight knit group of friends.
Here is the reality, If the game does not matter then the raid does not matter, ergo, you were not raiding for the Fun of doing that raid. You had a tight static that you stayed with over several games through several years that you enjoyed playing with, they would have made any game mode fun, You could have been playing an arena game like dead by daylight, or an MOBA like LOL, or BR like Fortnight, and the end result would be the same for you, you would have enjoyed playing with your tight knit teamwork of players made any game or game mode fun.
I stand by what I said. No one Raids for the Fun of it, you do raids for the loot.
You just had a nice static to run with, Congrats. I am happy for you, but that says nothing about the raids themselves.
No, the raid is the actual dance, the static/group/guild is the one performing it. And whatever game it is is the type of dance being performed. You can not have one without the other. Don’t turn what I write into something else so your view still applies, I simply don’t agree with your assessment and my previous post/posts is the reason why.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
Are you seriously trying to say that people go around and pew pew these same bosses that take like 2 minutes and have absolutely no chance of failing because it's 'fun'? Why doesn't anyone do the harder bosses like triple trouble or teq (although he's probably easier now that most people know the mechanics)? Why don't people do the same bosses 2, 3, 100 times a day for 'fun'?
No, people do these things cause they are face roll easy with no need to communicate and they get rewards for basically doing nothing.
Every boss or mob has a chance to drop a precursor to make a legendary weapon. Like I got a the dagger precursor weapon after killing a random ghost mob in Ascalon a few months ago.
Theres also that precursor crafting journey to make all of the legendary weapons in the game. Each weapon will task you to go and re-visit older locations to either kill bosses or finish events in order to acquire an item that will be used in crafting the pre. So there are reasons people will go back and do these events.
I've even got two friends who hang around kessex hills all the time doing all the events there just for fun. They tell me thats their home area in gw2. I make fun of them all the time for it. Personally, I don't really care about that area, but idk people are weird and will find reasons to do stuff others may see no appeal in.
I been playing since day one, I have never ever got a precursor to drop, ever. I most definitely not playing these events for that, since anything can drop that, from what I hear. I want to know what you think the rewards are for them that make people keep coming back to it, unlike the Raids which population is not doing as well.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I know for me, when I did raids in EQ and DDO, it was all about the loot. getting the loot and powering up my character was fun and enjoyable.
Dealing with raging asshats, draconian raid leaders, egotistical elitist wannabe's and all the various kinds of pool shitters that raids attract.. has never been, nor will it ever be, fun.
That was always a price that players had to pay to get the loot we wanted. This is also why main raid groups or raid guilds would be very closed doors. They also don't want to deal with the pool shitters that Raids attract, which is why you find them commonly in pug raids.
That lack of Raids and Gear Wall, was is originally something that made GW2 such a trend breaker, until they added raids of course, shot themselves in the nuts, and became just another generic MMO.
No.. really.. No Dis.. but everyone thinks that.
Reality is, people that Raid are there for loot, we show up to do a job, get the raid done, get our loot, and walk away, see you again when the timer resets.
Now to be fair, in EQ, in EQ I only ran with my guild, screw anyone and everyone else, but as you know, EQ was the kind of game where we set raids up days or even a week in advice, so there really was no room for pugging. So I kinda did everything with them, from just framing mobs to shooting the shit in chat and on the forums. That was my home team as it were.
However, in DDO it was very different, the instance aspect did change things a lot. So.. while I still kept mainly to my static of friends/guildmates, I would every so often PuG some raids, often to get an extra run in here and there, because, well that was just how the game worked.
Well, let me just say, as a Pugging Cleric, I quickly learn who's raids to join and who's not to, and the title of this topic is self evident as to why.
Anyway, If you think your raids were fun.. ask yourself this.. did you group with any of them in a non-raid like situation?
Did you run basic quests with any of them?
If the answer is no.. they didn't think you were fun to be with, chances are they raided with you, because you knew your shit as a leader and could get results even if you were the kind of person they would never sit down and have a beer with.
Just saying.
And by PUG, I don't mean, Your Guild let some random pugs into the last spot or two, I mean.. you joined a raid with a bunch of rando's, and just went with them?
How often have you done that?
I said, and I am going to quote myself here: I don't believe anyone really does raids because it is Fun
Think about it, when you run with your guild or static group, what makes the raid enjoyable? What is the ideal raid we all want when we show up to raid?
Of course barring the toxic pool shitters, I think it is safe to say that all reasonable players want a Raid that goes Smooth, Fast and Profitable.
I mean, ideally, I can only speak for myself on this one, and pretty much both my guilds in EQ and DDO, but it was commonly known that none of us wanted raids that went fucked up sideways and turned into slogs or wipes.
So based on that, ideally, the whole point of prepping, planning and getting ready to raid was to make the fight go as routinely smooth as possible with the hope that the RNG loot would be the best as possible.
Now again, I don't know the game you frequent, I have no idea how raids worked in your game(s) of choice, but, in DDO, Raids reset every 3 days, and we ran a lot of them every 3 days, across each character we had, for raids like the Shroud, VoN, VoD, HoX, etc, etc, I had done those raids hundreds of times, and I wager that in your guild, there were very few people that wanted these raids to go longer or more problematic than they absolutely had to be, in fact most raids are fram content, with the whole point of doing them is to get the loot.
I mean you can say what you like, but ideally, the best raid runs were the simple, smooth, easy, and fast runs, ergo, unremarkable and entirely forgettable, but over with so that everyone could get back to.... Well.. doing something other then raiding.
Which kinda should be the telltale sign that Raids are not done because they are Fun, they are done for loot.
I guarantee.. if a game put the same loot in other content smaller group content, the raids would die.
It is about seeing your entire group of guildies get together and make an effort. In these groups and settings stories are created, about ‘that one time when...’ No pre made content can replace that. And then, after countless of months you have your raid moving and acting like one organism, one entity, dancing through dungeons and encounters. And its a sight to behold, a joy to play.
If you raid for gear you are doing it wrong and if you raid with people who are doing it for the gear you are raiding with the wrong people, because it won’t last.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"That one Time"
Yes.. but.. that "One" time among a legion of what would be surprisingly forgettable runs?
LOL, raid team moving like an organism.. what game was this you played?
As for the organism part, if you ask what game that happened in you don't get it. The game doesn't matter, the team does, the knowing eachother does, the push and pull, the support of that one ego, the holding back on others, the picking up the pace, the slowing down. That is what I raided for, the communicating without words, the understanding of roles, people and their character on and offscreen. It really is like learning to dance.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Here is the reality, If the game does not matter then the raid does not matter, ergo, you were not raiding for the Fun of doing that raid. You had a tight static that you stayed with over several games through several years that you enjoyed playing with, they would have made any game mode fun, You could have been playing an arena game like dead by daylight, or an MOBA like LOL, or BR like Fortnight, and the end result would be the same for you, you would have enjoyed playing with your tight knit teamwork of players made any game or game mode fun.
I stand by what I said. No one Raids for the Fun of it, you do raids for the loot.
You just had a nice static to run with, Congrats. I am happy for you, but that says nothing about the raids themselves.
And the people talking about how raids are fun, are advocating and extolling the joys being in a exclusive closed group of tight knit players, the very thing that the OP wanted to work against, to allow more open grouping.
Which says a lot of why Raids and that whole idea of that kind of content fails hard in some games.
They run for loot and a far secondary is bragging rights which tends to naturally come with better loot.
I personally don't like raids. It's tedious and because I come from a PnP tabletop background, it's bizarre to see 40+ players taking down one monster. It's always been about a small group of adventurers not an army.
To me, when people say they like challenge, what they really mean is achievement. And to me, achievement means rewarding better loot. Is there any raiding environment that doesn't offer progressively better loot for harder content? I can't think of any.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer