None of these MMORPGs were really very social.
At best, most players knew a core group of friends they played with.
That's barely social for a "massively" multiplayer game.
And there's no game design that promotes, in a positive way, player involvement much outside of the small group. That needs to change, or there will never be what anyone can really call "socialness" in MMORPGs.
A key component is "repeat business" so that players form relationships far outside of a little nucleus of friends.
This is an old conversation and anyone who thinks it's just "todays" mmos is out of touch.
Games becoming easier and moving toward soloability is just the tip of the iceberg.
When Planes of Power released in EQ in 2002 and the plane of knowledge allowed easy fast travel across the world there was definitely a loss of social interaction. Later, when dungeon finders became a thing that instantly ported you into a dungeon there was a loss of social interaction. AHs allowing people to buy and sell without any interaction. Addons, bots and mods that allow a player to not rely as heavily on group members are another example that is detrimental to social interaction. I could go on but I don't think I have to.
If you haven't been having these conversations since the early 2000's you are either new to mmos or have been living under a rock.
GW is unsocial. ESO no point in a guild or a group until your at endgame. Neverwinter no social anything. Guild and discord is outside the game and that's you connecting to people. These games all promote solo play and when u need to group it takes less than 15 to finish which is why there is no talking. In ESO it's a footrace to the end with not one word said. You have to go back to Eq to find a social game. You had to group,you had to make friends, you had had to have a guild and your success depended on it. Today's crap is instant gratification and cash shop they could care less if you ever talk to anyone. Just pay me
GW1 - I can see. Too many people run around with their heroes without other players. That is not fun.
GW2 - especially WvW is very much a social game. As I said, the guild I am in is VERY social as is the server I am on (that is for WvW only). Our Discords are always active.
That is no true. GW was probably most social MMORPG for the difficult missions bots won't save you so people grouped and managed very well, not to mention that there we had class divercity and the holy trinity system.
In GW2 basically you solo the entire story, even the people you meet in the public quests are random encounters. When it comes to WvW you die, re-spawn die..... until you're bored. In GW1 gvg team-play and strategy were the core elements and everyone mattered and had important role.
It is not just GW2 , Black desert is another example which comes to mind when you can solo grind everything without even grouping or playing together with other people. These are MMORPG which ty their best not to be MMORPG
MMOs have not been social in a long time, this is not some revelation. WoW Classic is a perfect example of going back in time to when MMOs were actually social.
I am more social in games now that I am not forced to group, to play. When group play is forced, I play until I can go no further solo, and quit. Easy Peasy.
If someone needs help, happy to help. Guild member wants to run something together, sure.
I'm currently playing wow classic and it is as social as vanilla. There are "carries" and other types of people selling dungeon runs which is new but if you look for a group for a popular dungeon, you should get a few goes before you out level it. Also there are levelling guilds active and advertising although the non serious end game guilds are usually just a bunch of players who don't necessarily organise formal runs together.
The only other game that comes close to consistent pug-ability to this was VGSoH in my experience, although Rift just after release was pretty good.
People Socialized in older mmos out of neccessity. Because you needed the community to progress and advance. Your standing in the community mattered. If you were toxic you were shunned. If you scammed you were forced to start over on a new character.
Starting in WoW cross world/server dungeon and raid finders removed alot of need for people to socialize. There was now a button you could press and it replaced that need. You are matched with strangers not even on your server that chances are will never play with again or most likly will not remember playing with due to the long gaps of time between grouping with them. Instead of people helping you progress they became tools for your progression. Things that could be discarded when you no longer needed them.
Current trends are moving away from guilds, which for this argument I am considering large groups of 50+ players not the 4-5man crap ffxiv has. The shift is moving more towards lowman groups of 4-10 people in most mmos. This is not only crippling guilds (no reason to join them anymore) it is making people lose the group mindset. And this has an impact on how you treat others around you. I still talk to around 24 people from 15yrs ago in 7 different countries that were in my guild. People who meet in my guilds married and now have families. We had guild outtings in reallife for those in the US. That guild aspect that use to be such a core part of mmos... is long dead now in almost every game due to its design.
So yes MMOS are a whole lot less social, but it is not because people are less social, it is because the CORE DESIGN of the mmo games being developed changed. THANKS WOW!!!......, and the countess sheep developers who copied that stupid design.
In the age of garbage social interactions in almost all major AAA mmos today... I went to a few private server for FFXI and Archeage for a bit when everything else was in a slump. and guess what the social aspects were the same as they were 17 years ago when I first started playing mmos. FFXI because it was oldschool but the community was just as i remembered it alittle smaller obviously on a ps but felt exactly the same. Archeage because others mattered you could not progress without the help of your guild, friends, and allied guilds.
People are naturally social animals, but we also take the path of least resistance. If it is more progression/easier progression to not socialize we as a species will not socialize with people outside our inner circles. If you need help of others to survive socialization will thrive.
Want to fix the socialization of mmos do the following in my opinion: Remove Solo progression as the main model of character progression, Remove all Instance duty finders/raid finders, Remove the ability to change your characters name, Remove all cross world/realm functionality, remove mega servers, and build endgame content designed with guilds in mind. (you know the exact opposite direction the genre has been moving in the last 10yrs)
Dude, I gained a level by reading one of your posts again. Good work, Xatsh. Keep 'em comin'.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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I know in GW2 the guild I belong to, is so social, that it makes everything fun.
Social is important and part of the fun of gaming to me.
Thing is, I think we tend to associate social experiences with just active chatting and grouping.
Guild Wars 2 is more social than it's given credit for, because it's great at facilitating passive social interactions. Every time you place an AoE heal on random people, soft-group with nearby players, or participate in a large event, you are socializing even if you never say a word. It's those experiences that I play online games for. I'm a quiet person, but I do like being part of things in my own way.
I don't think concurrent existence combined with coincidental benefit would count as socializing to most people. It seems more collective individualism.
That's because the main goal (in reality) in 90%+ of MMORPGs is the acquisition of personal wealth and power. So, maybe an MMORPG could be designed which focused more on acquiring Wealth, Power, and Influence for a group, such as a Faction of some kind?. This could be Racial (Elfkind, Orckind), Political (Kingdoms/Monarchies, Oligarchies, Republics, etc.), Social (Families, Tribes/Clans, Nations), Economic (Trade Guilds, Companies, Corporations), Religious (Churches/Temples, Sacred Orders, Cults), Military (Armies, Warbands, Mercenary Companies) or even Criminal Associations (Bandit Gangs, Pirate Crews, Thieves' Guilds)
A major part of progression in such a game could include earning Reputation & Influence within a chosen Faction. Provincial and Regional levels/ranks of Renown and/or Infamy could also be attained.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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In a more competitive setting when you are grouped with random people and the team did badly, a lot of curses and anger are easily thrown around. People need to take the game less seriously for it to be more of a social games, but the fact is that people can easily judge other especially when you don't have to see their face. It's more different when you meet the person in real life when you curses a lot people can just punch your face, so in game there are no reservation on piling up anger anger and curse because even a coward can hide behind their avatar.
However, competition (hopefully fair competition) will increase the need and importance of cooperation in a game. Like say, if the Allies are not cooperating in Axis & Allies (a WWII board game), then the Axis powers are probably gonna win.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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People Socialized in older mmos out of neccessity. Because you needed the community to progress and advance. Your standing in the community mattered. If you were toxic you were shunned. If you scammed you were forced to start over on a new character.
Starting in WoW cross world/server dungeon and raid finders removed alot of need for people to socialize. There was now a button you could press and it replaced that need. You are matched with strangers not even on your server that chances are will never play with again or most likly will not remember playing with due to the long gaps of time between grouping with them. Instead of people helping you progress they became tools for your progression. Things that could be discarded when you no longer needed them.
Current trends are moving away from guilds, which for this argument I am considering large groups of 50+ players not the 4-5man crap ffxiv has. The shift is moving more towards lowman groups of 4-10 people in most mmos. This is not only crippling guilds (no reason to join them anymore) it is making people lose the group mindset. And this has an impact on how you treat others around you. I still talk to around 24 people from 15yrs ago in 7 different countries that were in my guild. People who meet in my guilds married and now have families. We had guild outtings in reallife for those in the US. That guild aspect that use to be such a core part of mmos... is long dead now in almost every game due to its design.
So yes MMOS are a whole lot less social, but it is not because people are less social, it is because the CORE DESIGN of the mmo games being developed changed. THANKS WOW!!!......, and the countess sheep developers who copied that stupid design.
In the age of garbage social interactions in almost all major AAA mmos today... I went to a few private server for FFXI and Archeage for a bit when everything else was in a slump. and guess what the social aspects were the same as they were 17 years ago when I first started playing mmos. FFXI because it was oldschool but the community was just as i remembered it alittle smaller obviously on a ps but felt exactly the same. Archeage because others mattered you could not progress without the help of your guild, friends, and allied guilds.
People are naturally social animals, but we also take the path of least resistance. If it is more progression/easier progression to not socialize we as a species will not socialize with people outside our inner circles. If you need help of others to survive socialization will thrive.
Want to fix the socialization of mmos do the following in my opinion: Remove Solo progression as the main model of character progression, Remove all Instance duty finders/raid finders, Remove the ability to change your characters name, Remove all cross world/realm functionality, remove mega servers, and build endgame content designed with guilds in mind. (you know the exact opposite direction the genre has been moving in the last 10yrs)
"People Socialized in older mmos out of neccessity." At first i believe this to be 100% true, but once in, i've never met anyone who'd want ti any other way as they now have realized, that's what makes the game, makes the memories, makes amazing times, and most of all what makes an mmorpg an mmorpg.
"Remove Solo progression" is like asking the company to remove money. We all know the chance that has.
Unless the game is so well-designed, immersive, challenging, exciting, and FUN that it will draw in a lot more players than the current crop of 90%+ WoW clones/imitators.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
There are two things that are absolutely required for a social bond to form in an MMO:
1) Repeated Contact
2) Downtime
The repeated contact is required so that the other people can enter your consciousness, so that you can remember who they are and you can start to build some trust.
Grouping (forced or otherwise) is simply one way of generating that repeated contact with others. It's effectiveness very much depends on the combat mechanics and the content, but it has proven to be reasonably good. However, it does not work when paired with vertical progression - inevitably, everyone ends up at the top of the power curve and so it becomes nearly impossible to group up before endgame. As such, sticking with this design cuts off new blood, making the game inaccessible to most. Hence the shift to solo gameplay.
Downtime is the other essential part to forming social bonds. "Being social" requires at least some of your attention, so if the game itself is taking all of your attention then you simply wont have the time to socialise. It becomes a fine balancing act for the devs, to design content that requires your full attention (and thus leading to fun) but then to design downtime for other reasons - we need to rest after high-attention activities, but also need this downtime for socialising.
Until devs shift away from vertical progression, they will always have a problem when trying to using grouping as a way to increase social bonding. They can either put grouping into the leveling process, generating a great community for the first year, but cutting off new blood later on. Or, then can keep leveling primarily solo, keeping it accessible but reducing social bonding.
Likewise, technology like mega-servers is guaranteed to reduce the social side of an mmo, simply because it dramatically reduces the chances of repeated contact with others.
That doesn't mean there aren;t other activities that can build social bonds. Combat isn't the only reason to group, or interact with others. Roleplaying, the player economy, player events and whatever else you can think of. It's just the devs haven't really put in the effort (so far!) to turn these other activities into something more prominent and meaningful, with more of a social focus.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, there is nothing to say that mmos have to be social. There is room in the market for everything. I do firmly believe that if an mmo is designed to be social, it will have much greater retention than lesser social games, but that retention may come at the cost of less general appeal.
Instead of removing Vertical Progression, how about just making Vertical Progression more limited and realistic (realistic/internally consistent within the bounds of the alternate/fantasy/sci-fi setting). Limit the advantages gained by gear/equipment and items to something more realistic as well. I'm definitely in favor of skill, ability, proficiency, and talent based progression. I would also like the possibility of atrophy/regression if a skill, etc. isn't used frequently enough. This could do away with the need for players to reset builds they didn't like. Don't want a skill? Just stop using it so you can eventually train something else.
And, yes, I agree with your past posts about including Horizontal Progression to unlock different options as well.
Also, there are different forms an MMORPG can have besides Combat Progression. There are different forms of Power besides Combat Power. Wealth is one. But most MMORPGs primarily use Wealth in order to increase Combat Power. Other forms of Power: Social Status & Social Contacts (Family, Friends, Tribe/Clan, Nation), Economic Status (which is tied to Wealth, of course), Political Rank, Military Rank, Religious Authority, and even Criminal Partnerships/Associations.
Non-combat Skills can also provide a certain amount of power. If they are made to be useful in the game. Crafting is one of the only useful Non-combat Skills most MMORPGs offer. But again, similar to Wealth, the main purpose of most Crafting is to augment Combat Power. Or to increase Wealth, which is then used to increase Combat Power. Or maybe buy a mount, or a house or w/e.
EDIT: I forgot Reputation and Influence within Factions. Also Provincial & Regional Renown or Infamy.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
There are two things that are absolutely required for a social bond to form in an MMO:
1) Repeated Contact
2) Downtime
The repeated contact is required so that the other people can enter your consciousness, so that you can remember who they are and you can start to build some trust.
Grouping (forced or otherwise) is simply one way of generating that repeated contact with others. It's effectiveness very much depends on the combat mechanics and the content, but it has proven to be reasonably good. However, it does not work when paired with vertical progression - inevitably, everyone ends up at the top of the power curve and so it becomes nearly impossible to group up before endgame. As such, sticking with this design cuts off new blood, making the game inaccessible to most. Hence the shift to solo gameplay.
Downtime is the other essential part to forming social bonds. "Being social" requires at least some of your attention, so if the game itself is taking all of your attention then you simply wont have the time to socialise. It becomes a fine balancing act for the devs, to design content that requires your full attention (and thus leading to fun) but then to design downtime for other reasons - we need to rest after high-attention activities, but also need this downtime for socialising.
Until devs shift away from vertical progression, they will always have a problem when trying to using grouping as a way to increase social bonding. They can either put grouping into the leveling process, generating a great community for the first year, but cutting off new blood later on. Or, then can keep leveling primarily solo, keeping it accessible but reducing social bonding.
Likewise, technology like mega-servers is guaranteed to reduce the social side of an mmo, simply because it dramatically reduces the chances of repeated contact with others.
That doesn't mean there aren;t other activities that can build social bonds. Combat isn't the only reason to group, or interact with others. Roleplaying, the player economy, player events and whatever else you can think of. It's just the devs haven't really put in the effort (so far!) to turn these other activities into something more prominent and meaningful, with more of a social focus.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, there is nothing to say that mmos have to be social. There is room in the market for everything. I do firmly believe that if an mmo is designed to be social, it will have much greater retention than lesser social games, but that retention may come at the cost of less general appeal.
Instead of removing Vertical Progression, how about just making Vertical Progression more limited and realistic (realistic/internally consistent within the bounds of the alternate/fantasy/sci-fi setting). Limit the advantages gained by gear/equipment and items to something more realistic as well. I'm definitely in favor of skill, ability, proficiency, and talent based progression. I would also like the possibility of atrophy/regression if a skill, etc. isn't used frequently enough. This could do away with the need for players to reset builds they didn't like. Don't want a skill? Just stop using it so you can eventually train something else.
And, yes, I agree with your past posts about including Horizontal Progression to unlock different options as well.
Also, there are different forms an MMORPG can have besides Combat Progression. There are different forms of Power besides Combat Power. Wealth is one. But most MMORPGs primarily use Wealth in order to increase Combat Power. Other forms of Power: Social Status & Social Contacts (Family, Friends, Tribe/Clan, Nation), Economic Status (which is tied to Wealth, of course), Political Rank, Military Rank, Religious Authority, and even Criminal Partnerships/Associations.
Non-combat Skills can also provide a certain amount of power. If they are made to be useful in the game. Crafting is one of the only useful Non-combat Skills most MMORPGs offer. But again, similar to Wealth, the main purpose of most Crafting is to augment Combat Power. Or to increase Wealth, which is then used to increase Combat Power. Or maybe buy a mount, or a house or w/e.
EDIT: I forgot Reputation and Influence within Factions. Also Provincial & Regional Renown or Infamy.
I agree on limiting vertical progression and atrophy of unused skills. At some point our characters should hit a max somewhere and have to juggle which skills to build with finite abilities.
As long as social status is restricted to NPCs I'm okay with that; basically faction reputation. If it affects other players, I can see problems and abuses but it all depends on how the game handles player social ranks.
This is an old conversation and anyone who thinks it's just "todays" mmos is out of touch.
Games becoming easier and moving toward soloability is just the tip of the iceberg.
When Planes of Power released in EQ in 2002 and the plane of knowledge allowed easy fast travel across the world there was definitely a loss of social interaction. Later, when dungeon finders became a thing that instantly ported you into a dungeon there was a loss of social interaction. AHs allowing people to buy and sell without any interaction. Addons, bots and mods that allow a player to not rely as heavily on group members are another example that is detrimental to social interaction. I could go on but I don't think I have to.
If you haven't been having these conversations since the early 2000's you are either new to mmos or have been living under a rock.
If, in real life, we didn't need other people to help with much of anything, how many people would still be social? Sure some of us may have mental/emotional/spiritual needs that require being around other people. Though any physical need could probably be met by a stranger (depending on one's level/type/view of morality).
And hasn't socialization in the real world been lessened or become less necessary due to technological advancements and other systems designed to improve/promote health and safety. Or systems designed to protect people or make them feel safer? Technology can have unforeseen side-effects. Actually, technology can solve one problem while creating ten new problems.
Anyway, the kind of technology which makes life more convenient and comfortable can lead to less need for socialization in games just as it does in the real world.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I am more social in games now that I am not forced to group, to play. When group play is forced, I play until I can go no further solo, and quit. Easy Peasy.
If someone needs help, happy to help. Guild member wants to run something together, sure.
Only way to progress is in a group? Bye bye.
Why? You don't like being forced to try to form relationships with strangers?
Everyone is a stranger until we get to know them better.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
There are two things that are absolutely required for a social bond to form in an MMO:
1) Repeated Contact
2) Downtime
The repeated contact is required so that the other people can enter your consciousness, so that you can remember who they are and you can start to build some trust.
Grouping (forced or otherwise) is simply one way of generating that repeated contact with others. It's effectiveness very much depends on the combat mechanics and the content, but it has proven to be reasonably good. However, it does not work when paired with vertical progression - inevitably, everyone ends up at the top of the power curve and so it becomes nearly impossible to group up before endgame. As such, sticking with this design cuts off new blood, making the game inaccessible to most. Hence the shift to solo gameplay.
Downtime is the other essential part to forming social bonds. "Being social" requires at least some of your attention, so if the game itself is taking all of your attention then you simply wont have the time to socialise. It becomes a fine balancing act for the devs, to design content that requires your full attention (and thus leading to fun) but then to design downtime for other reasons - we need to rest after high-attention activities, but also need this downtime for socialising.
Until devs shift away from vertical progression, they will always have a problem when trying to using grouping as a way to increase social bonding. They can either put grouping into the leveling process, generating a great community for the first year, but cutting off new blood later on. Or, then can keep leveling primarily solo, keeping it accessible but reducing social bonding.
Likewise, technology like mega-servers is guaranteed to reduce the social side of an mmo, simply because it dramatically reduces the chances of repeated contact with others.
That doesn't mean there aren;t other activities that can build social bonds. Combat isn't the only reason to group, or interact with others. Roleplaying, the player economy, player events and whatever else you can think of. It's just the devs haven't really put in the effort (so far!) to turn these other activities into something more prominent and meaningful, with more of a social focus.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, there is nothing to say that mmos have to be social. There is room in the market for everything. I do firmly believe that if an mmo is designed to be social, it will have much greater retention than lesser social games, but that retention may come at the cost of less general appeal.
Instead of removing Vertical Progression, how about just making Vertical Progression more limited and realistic (realistic/internally consistent within the bounds of the alternate/fantasy/sci-fi setting). Limit the advantages gained by gear/equipment and items to something more realistic as well. I'm definitely in favor of skill, ability, proficiency, and talent based progression. I would also like the possibility of atrophy/regression if a skill, etc. isn't used frequently enough. This could do away with the need for players to reset builds they didn't like. Don't want a skill? Just stop using it so you can eventually train something else.
And, yes, I agree with your past posts about including Horizontal Progression to unlock different options as well.
Also, there are different forms an MMORPG can have besides Combat Progression. There are different forms of Power besides Combat Power. Wealth is one. But most MMORPGs primarily use Wealth in order to increase Combat Power. Other forms of Power: Social Status & Social Contacts (Family, Friends, Tribe/Clan, Nation), Economic Status (which is tied to Wealth, of course), Political Rank, Military Rank, Religious Authority, and even Criminal Partnerships/Associations.
Non-combat Skills can also provide a certain amount of power. If they are made to be useful in the game. Crafting is one of the only useful Non-combat Skills most MMORPGs offer. But again, similar to Wealth, the main purpose of most Crafting is to augment Combat Power. Or to increase Wealth, which is then used to increase Combat Power. Or maybe buy a mount, or a house or w/e.
EDIT: I forgot Reputation and Influence within Factions. Also Provincial & Regional Renown or Infamy.
I agree on limiting vertical progression and atrophy of unused skills. At some point our characters should hit a max somewhere and have to juggle which skills to build with finite abilities.
As long as social status is restricted to NPCs I'm okay with that; basically faction reputation. If it affects other players, I can see problems and abuses but it all depends on how the game handles player social ranks.
I see your point. But there can be problems and abuses in relation to social status in the real world.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I know in GW2 the guild I belong to, is so social, that it makes everything fun.
Social is important and part of the fun of gaming to me.
Thing is, I think we tend to associate social experiences with just active chatting and grouping.
Guild Wars 2 is more social than it's given credit for, because it's great at facilitating passive social interactions. Every time you place an AoE heal on random people, soft-group with nearby players, or participate in a large event, you are socializing even if you never say a word. It's those experiences that I play online games for. I'm a quiet person, but I do like being part of things in my own way.
I don't think concurrent existence combined with coincidental benefit would count as socializing to most people. It seems more collective individualism.
Ultimately, if that were true, there would be no cause for introverts to play online games at all. They'd get a better experience out of single player games.
But online games offer spontaneity through such social encounters, big and small. It's just up to us to pick the games that best fit the kind of interaction we're looking for.
Introverts are not homogeneous in nature. One cannot make a blanket assumption about what any particular group of people has cause to do or will get a better experience from. That choice is up to each individual, not the presumption of others.
While you may feel coincidental play alongside others is in some way social in nature, a perspective you are of course entitled to, I do not. To me it no more socially significant than my last non-encounter with a person I walked by that I don't know from a hole in the ground.
Regardless, it is something you feel to be social in nature and find value in, so I'm happy MMORPGs provide that for you.
All you have to do is play retail wow then play classic wow and you tell me if games are less social now. You can do 10 dungeons in a row on retail and never have anyone say anything is any of the runs. In classic people do communicate all the time during dungeon runs. I am playing a level 38 warlock and have 25 people on my friends list because they come in handy when you are looking to do a dungeon. I have never used my friends list in retail. Classic is the most fun I have had in a mmo since vanilla LOTRO. I don't expect to go back to retail other than to check out the new leveling system but I wont be buying Shadowlands unless they add a server that isn't cross realm and no LFD tool, Which isn't going to happen
Sorry but you are wrong since in retail wow people do talk in dungeons. The thing here is throwing banter in a dungeon is stupid.
All you have to do is play retail wow then play classic wow and you tell me if games are less social now. You can do 10 dungeons in a row on retail and never have anyone say anything is any of the runs. In classic people do communicate all the time during dungeon runs. I am playing a level 38 warlock and have 25 people on my friends list because they come in handy when you are looking to do a dungeon. I have never used my friends list in retail. Classic is the most fun I have had in a mmo since vanilla LOTRO. I don't expect to go back to retail other than to check out the new leveling system but I wont be buying Shadowlands unless they add a server that isn't cross realm and no LFD tool, Which isn't going to happen
Sorry but you are wrong since in retail wow people do talk in dungeons. The thing here is throwing banter in a dungeon is stupid.
What about using Emotes in Dungeons?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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No, people are less social. Even in games like FFXIV I see people all the time trying to initiate conversation during things but most just ignore them or give simple one word reply and that's that. There's no reason people couldn't be more social if they wanted to, but they don't. If EQ came out today it would be the same.
Global chat channels are probably one of the least social things that happen in MMOs. They are little more than the MMO equivalent of twitch viewer chat with random people.
How much people chat with others is also IMO, overblown as the definitive measure of MMO social engagement.
I used to preferentially play in RP servers when MMOs had those - some still do, but not many. I played in the Guinevere server in DAoC, Landroval in LOTRO and Emerald Dream in WOW despite never really being into play acting scenes in public places. That's not necessary to enjoy an RP server and is something that only some of the more HC RPers do (and by the lack of quality I've often seen in those enactments it should probably be restricted to those few who can do it well )
I went to those servers not looking for those scenes but rather to avoid as much as possible non-immersive out of character chat. Less Chuck Norris chat and more simple game related stuff about what we were doing in the game. Even meta-gaming chat about things like builds, classes etc. was kept to a minimum. In the real old, old days most went out of their way to preface anything not directly related to the game world with "(ooc)" and it was kept to a minimum even in private, guild chat channels.
But those chats, RP-friendly or otherwise, were not even the more important social aspect. It was the easy camaraderie of playing with the same people often or even just seeing the same players you didn't play with frequently everywhere you went. In order to have that happen in your MMO you need to keep your servers on the small side. Megaservers, which are nothing more than merging all servers into one, may be a good solution for never having dead servers or the need to merge them, but they kill that casual social aspect that comes simply from seeing each other in the game world often.
Another simple thing that encourages socializing is having distinct factions with conflict built in between them. There are very few things that pull people together - even those who don't particularly like each other - than having a common enemy.
The best social experiences I've ever had in MMOs happened in Dark Age of Camelot. Not only were we in a smallish server, we were also subdivided into one of the three factions that you had to pick at character creation. If you were in Albion you only played with others there and you only ever played against those who were in Midgard or Hibernia. You literally got to know everyone in your faction over time.
The open world design also contributed. You might go into your favorite spot in a dungeon with your group but on the way there you passed by other groups grinding in their chosen spot. Even if you didn't stop to chat with friends and acquaintances along your way, they were still in your awareness much like everyone in a small village is aware of each other IRL.
Before ESO launched, the development team had some awareness of what they were about to do with their megaserver tech. Their early original plans called for the different instances of the same zone in their servers to match like-minded individuals, friends and guilds. They even went so far as describing how they would have a questionnaire to help make good matches.
But that got cut along the way and the end result was PvE with strangers. And the play only with those in your faction part? That was also dumped eventually due to fan demand. I like to think that the ES fans who always hated faction separation didn't really have a clue how much damage they were doing to the social aspect of the game by lobbying to get rid of it. They just seemed to hate it because it was not a TES thing or didn't want any of that Matt Firor DAoC crap in their game.
Do ESO players chat in that game? Yeah. About everything and anything other than the game. And when they do talk about the game it's usually just the meta-gaming stuff: which gear is best for which build; where is the best spot to grind for a rare resource that sells well; and so on.
So yeah color me skeptical that chatting = the measure of MMO socialization.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I find it hard to see why this is a question, of course MMO's are less social now. Where players differ is on how important that is and if they do care, what can be done about it?
I think social mechanisms could be put into place to encourage social activity. Difficulty was one of the reasons we stuck together, implemented in the right areas that would work. But not overall difficulty as players only expect carrot now not stick, they expect to see games getting ever easier as they have done for twenty years. The carrot route would work better, give people a bonus for being social, hanging out in taverns or public plazas could reduce "combat fatigue". You could have titles for how many people you have sent a tell too or been in a group with.
There are ways it is just that social activity is not something developers prioritize just about every other aspect of game design seems to come first.
Comments
At best, most players knew a core group of friends they played with.
That's barely social for a "massively" multiplayer game.
And there's no game design that promotes, in a positive way, player involvement much outside of the small group. That needs to change, or there will never be what anyone can really call "socialness" in MMORPGs.
A key component is "repeat business" so that players form relationships far outside of a little nucleus of friends.
Once upon a time....
Games becoming easier and moving toward soloability is just the tip of the iceberg.
When Planes of Power released in EQ in 2002 and the plane of knowledge allowed easy fast travel across the world there was definitely a loss of social interaction. Later, when dungeon finders became a thing that instantly ported you into a dungeon there was a loss of social interaction. AHs allowing people to buy and sell without any interaction. Addons, bots and mods that allow a player to not rely as heavily on group members are another example that is detrimental to social interaction. I could go on but I don't think I have to.
If you haven't been having these conversations since the early 2000's you are either new to mmos or have been living under a rock.
That is no true. GW was probably most social MMORPG for the difficult missions bots won't save you so people grouped and managed very well, not to mention that there we had class divercity and the holy trinity system.
In GW2 basically you solo the entire story, even the people you meet in the public quests are random encounters. When it comes to WvW you die, re-spawn die..... until you're bored. In GW1 gvg team-play and strategy were the core elements and everyone mattered and had important role.
It is not just GW2 , Black desert is another example which comes to mind when you can solo grind everything without even grouping or playing together with other people. These are MMORPG which ty their best not to be MMORPG
If someone needs help, happy to help. Guild member wants to run something together, sure.
Only way to progress is in a group? Bye bye.
The only other game that comes close to consistent pug-ability to this was VGSoH in my experience, although Rift just after release was pretty good.
However, competition (hopefully fair competition) will increase the need and importance of cooperation in a game. Like say, if the Allies are not cooperating in Axis & Allies (a WWII board game), then the Axis powers are probably gonna win.
Unless the game is so well-designed, immersive, challenging, exciting, and FUN that it will draw in a lot more players than the current crop of 90%+ WoW clones/imitators.
As long as social status is restricted to NPCs I'm okay with that; basically faction reputation. If it affects other players, I can see problems and abuses but it all depends on how the game handles player social ranks.
I see your point. But there can be problems and abuses in relation to social status in the real world.
Introverts are not homogeneous in nature. One cannot make a blanket assumption about what any particular group of people has cause to do or will get a better experience from. That choice is up to each individual, not the presumption of others.
While you may feel coincidental play alongside others is in some way social in nature, a perspective you are of course entitled to, I do not. To me it no more socially significant than my last non-encounter with a person I walked by that I don't know from a hole in the ground.
Regardless, it is something you feel to be social in nature and find value in, so I'm happy MMORPGs provide that for you.
Sorry but you are wrong since in retail wow people do talk in dungeons. The thing here is throwing banter in a dungeon is stupid.
What about using Emotes in Dungeons?
How much people chat with others is also IMO, overblown as the definitive measure of MMO social engagement.
I used to preferentially play in RP servers when MMOs had those - some still do, but not many. I played in the Guinevere server in DAoC, Landroval in LOTRO and Emerald Dream in WOW despite never really being into play acting scenes in public places. That's not necessary to enjoy an RP server and is something that only some of the more HC RPers do (and by the lack of quality I've often seen in those enactments it should probably be restricted to those few who can do it well
I went to those servers not looking for those scenes but rather to avoid as much as possible non-immersive out of character chat. Less Chuck Norris chat and more simple game related stuff about what we were doing in the game. Even meta-gaming chat about things like builds, classes etc. was kept to a minimum. In the real old, old days most went out of their way to preface anything not directly related to the game world with "(ooc)" and it was kept to a minimum even in private, guild chat channels.
But those chats, RP-friendly or otherwise, were not even the more important social aspect. It was the easy camaraderie of playing with the same people often or even just seeing the same players you didn't play with frequently everywhere you went. In order to have that happen in your MMO you need to keep your servers on the small side. Megaservers, which are nothing more than merging all servers into one, may be a good solution for never having dead servers or the need to merge them, but they kill that casual social aspect that comes simply from seeing each other in the game world often.
Another simple thing that encourages socializing is having distinct factions with conflict built in between them. There are very few things that pull people together - even those who don't particularly like each other - than having a common enemy.
The best social experiences I've ever had in MMOs happened in Dark Age of Camelot. Not only were we in a smallish server, we were also subdivided into one of the three factions that you had to pick at character creation. If you were in Albion you only played with others there and you only ever played against those who were in Midgard or Hibernia. You literally got to know everyone in your faction over time.
The open world design also contributed. You might go into your favorite spot in a dungeon with your group but on the way there you passed by other groups grinding in their chosen spot. Even if you didn't stop to chat with friends and acquaintances along your way, they were still in your awareness much like everyone in a small village is aware of each other IRL.
Before ESO launched, the development team had some awareness of what they were about to do with their megaserver tech. Their early original plans called for the different instances of the same zone in their servers to match like-minded individuals, friends and guilds. They even went so far as describing how they would have a questionnaire to help make good matches.
But that got cut along the way and the end result was PvE with strangers. And the play only with those in your faction part? That was also dumped eventually due to fan demand. I like to think that the ES fans who always hated faction separation didn't really have a clue how much damage they were doing to the social aspect of the game by lobbying to get rid of it. They just seemed to hate it because it was not a TES thing or didn't want any of that Matt Firor DAoC crap in their game.
Do ESO players chat in that game? Yeah. About everything and anything other than the game. And when they do talk about the game it's usually just the meta-gaming stuff: which gear is best for which build; where is the best spot to grind for a rare resource that sells well; and so on.
So yeah color me skeptical that chatting = the measure of MMO socialization.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think social mechanisms could be put into place to encourage social activity. Difficulty was one of the reasons we stuck together, implemented in the right areas that would work. But not overall difficulty as players only expect carrot now not stick, they expect to see games getting ever easier as they have done for twenty years. The carrot route would work better, give people a bonus for being social, hanging out in taverns or public plazas could reduce "combat fatigue". You could have titles for how many people you have sent a tell too or been in a group with.
There are ways it is just that social activity is not something developers prioritize just about every other aspect of game design seems to come first.