Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I could totally see something like a 16 player 1v1 dueling bracket, that has the same level of reward as a 16 man raid for players. (You're going to need to keep up with a meta, expend resources like one time use consumables, and you're probably going to spend the same amount of time as a raid most likely).
You can even fully integrate that into a game. Where those duel rankings end up increasing how fast a guild keep (land plot) can advance, while solo gathering PvE builds the keep, and grouped PvE raids ends up determining which bluffs the guild activates.
And that's barely even trying to design something that forcefully integrate play styles that are normally opposed.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Ut oh, here we go again: "Koster also seeks to make the game someplace where explorers, player killers, socializers, and killers can co-exist or even find some interdependencies."
Nowhere have they said that their idea of co-existence is OWPvP. A game like DAoC had something for all types of player as well as interdependence.
I think you guys are letting your imagination and bias run wild based on some pretty generic pre-production statements.
All we really know is that Raph and Co. have an MMO in the works and that even the most rudimentary details won't be revealed until sometime next year.
If you want to be critical at this stage criticize announcing a future announcement because that's all we have so far.
I believe as well. So many complain about the same old games then when something new comes complain it's too different. Complain before they even know anything. But let's not get in the way of quest level loot games we have had for the past 15 years.
My ideals of MMORPG mostly align with much of what he has done. Have to see where he is trying to take his game.
I'm still a fan of Raph Koster and I think his approach to this new game is a good one. Like others in this thread, I am worried that the game might turn into a science experiment, but I am also hopeful that he has learnt that lesson from Metaverse.
On the subject of trying to create an MMORPG for multiple playstyles, I am fully in support of that goal. In fact, I view it as essential for long term success. Why?
First, humans are fickle! We struggle to concentrate on single tasks for any length of time, our moods change, as do our interests. If a game hopes to retain us for months or years, it needs to provide a variety of activities, otherwise we'll just quit when we inevitably get bored / burned out with the few activities that are there. Providing a bredth of activities will give us something to do and keep us in game for longer.
Second, diverse communities are the strongest. This is true in real life as well as in mmos. One of the reasons for this (and this is a lesson Raph learned from UO) is that group identity is just as much about what you are opposed to as what you have in common. If you have a common enemy (PvPers) then your group (PvEers) will be stronger. Without that opposition, human beings will inevitably find faults within their own groups, resulting in less cohesion (and thus less retention for the game).
Third, this is the massively multiplayer genre. The goal is to bring as many people together as possible and get them playing together. This is best facilitated by building a strong community where the members of that community feel comfortable playing together. Focusing on community, building those social bonds, not only makes good business sense but will improve the multiplayer aspect of the game.
Finally, it just makes good business sense to make a game that can appeal to a very wide range of players. This is obviously based on the assumption that you can actually deliver features that are enjoyable to a wide range of players, which is far from a given. Plenty have tried and failed, but I think Raph managed to get pretty close to this in SWG, so he stands a better chance than most in achieving this goal.
On the PvP front, I personally won't play an MMO unless it has PvP in it. However, I wouldn't worry about Raph putting in non-consenaul PvP (I also wouldn't play if the pvp was non-consensual). Raph spent years trying to figure out how to make it work in UO and couldn't, which is why SWG had flagging. Raph's already learnt his lesson on FFA PvP, so unless he's somehow figured out some genius way to make it work now, chances are the PvP will always be consensual. It is my hope (given the virtual world design) that the PvP will occur in the open world and not be instanced. So, yeh, im expecting another flagging system of some sort.
IIRC, Koster argued against flagging for PVP in SWG, and it was installed over his objections.
IF a game has non-consensual PvP, I won't spend money on it, unless it has some particularly interesting design. I forked over the money for Crowfall, as I think they've got decent ideas. Koster has a lot of ideas, but not convinced that his PvP paradigms will work. We'll see.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I've been around long enough to remember the last game he did, Metaplace. We saw this same type hype around it too, what a disappointment that was sadly. It may truly be his "Holiday Special" at this point. The concept seemed cool, but it was trying to be too many things at once. Eitherway I hope he is successful, but not holding my breath.
Ut oh, here we go again: "Koster also seeks to make the game someplace where explorers, player killers, socializers, and killers can co-exist or even find some interdependencies."
If they plan to put PK directly in the mix with everyone else, it will be a mess, as always. Hopefully, PvP will be completely optional.
What is "killers" as a playing style, anyway ?
Probably what's traditionally known as achievers. These're players who like to gain levels, acquire wealth or power in the game.
Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
Some people are winners some are losers.
Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it.
“You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved”
Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.
You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
Some people are winners some are losers.
Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it.
“You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved”
Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
Some people are winners some are losers.
Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it.
“You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved”
”No matter how badass you think you are, there is always a badass bigger than you. –Amir” from the recent Bollywood movie Extraction.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
Some people are winners some are losers.
Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it.
“You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved”
Raph needs to stop by a tropical fish store and read up on community fish versus aggressive fish. Put them in a tank together and it's pure carnage.
But it's probably great fun for the aggressive fish, until there are no more community fish left.
That's when they are forced to fight people that actually want to PvP, in which case is too much trouble and then the game dies.
That’s what people who are bad at the game tell themselves so the can sleep at night...
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
Some people are winners some are losers.
Tiddlywinks to women. There’s something in me, if I’m doing it I gotta win it.
“You’ll never understand I used be you then I evolved”
I take it, your talking about PvP since you always promote PvP.
Not too sure how serious you are on a scale of 1>10, but I'm willing to bet your an 8 with your statement "Some are winners and some are losers".
Realistically, By far most people believe playing video games are an unhealthy way of life. Many would somewhat approve if kept in perspective....... I have to be careful who I tell I play video games because the conversation could turn embarrassing and I'll have NO JUSTIFICATION for my counter argument.
Even within my self I sometimes feel embarrassed when I play too long or gloat to much over a prize. But their is something sick in saying "some people are winners and some are losers".
For me playing video games at times in an unhealthy way is one thing, but this statement brings it to a new level..... But then again to each their own.
Oh don't fall for the ruse, it is just his way of riling up the players that enjoy PvE. I doubt he honestly believes half of what he writes here because then it would be pathetic if he actually measures his success on winning games equating to the worth of a person. It would also indicate a serious lack of self worth.
Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.
You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available, that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.
So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.
About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.
Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.
You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available, that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.
So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.
About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.
But then, you're manipulating players to participate in game features they don't like for the top gear, which everyone should "enjoy" trying to get.
Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.
Is that making sense?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.
You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available, that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.
So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.
About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.
But then, you're manipulating players to participate in game features they don't like for the top gear, which everyone should "enjoy" trying to get.
Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.
Is that making sense?
I dont force anyone though. You can just keep playing whatever sphere you like and you will still get a good set of equipment. Just not the best.
I cant think of a more solomonic solution to this problem.
Any of us who have played a few MMOs know you cannot appeal to every kind of MMO player equally and that certain playstyles are antagonistic to others. I am not just talking about PvE and PvP, crafters and those who don't craft are problematic. Crafters want the best gear to be crafted, those who don't craft want loot drops to be excellent, raiders want raid gear to be tops and PVPers don't like it when their gear is only best for PvP.
You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
Well, I cant speak for others but I always felt that if you have multiphe spheres available, that every sphere should give you a decent set of equipment, but to have the best, you will need all of them.
So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.
About crafting, I think my approach would be to make standard crafting easy accessible. If you want to be an expert crafter however you will have to invest a lot of time, and you will only be great in one area. So for example the master weaponsmith cannot also be the master armorsmith.
But then, you're manipulating players to participate in game features they don't like for the top gear, which everyone should "enjoy" trying to get.
Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.
Is that making sense?
I dont force anyone though. You can just keep playing whatever sphere you like and you will still get a good set of equipment. Just not the best.
I cant think of a more solomonic solution to this problem.
I can think of a more Solomon like solution, let every player pursue only what they like, yet all roads lead to the best gear.
Whether a player chooses to play all aspects of the game, or totally specialize in just one, make the same top end equipment available to all.
EVE is basically like this, with everything being available for purchase or resale, as long as one has enough ISK, it's possible to obtain most anything.
Oh, for those really rare items which some players manage to get, like blue print originals or limited edition tournament ships CCP has got your back.
With the recent changes to Upwell structures making them vulnerable to attack and being looted even in High Sec after CCP promised they wouldn't be, the pirates went wild pillaging and looting trillions of ISK worth of rare gear from inactive players who never knew what hit them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Do you have to be forced to do content to enjoy it? Has a game developer so little confidence in their systems that without making raids mandatory for content it will mean no one will do them.
This is essentially what happened in WoW. At some point since the best gear fell off raid bosses they had to introduce LFR to enable people to get them. This is such a tragic turn on the whole concept of raiding. Raids were done by guilds as an event in Everquest. You got together in the weekend and spent hours raiding and sometimes walked away with nothing as I often did.
It didn't mean I didn't raid the next weekend, I did, because the raid itself was a great event. It was difficult and required organisation and sometimes we wiped and then we went back and got our corpses and moved further in. All that wonderful sense of adventure is gone now if you have to raid and when you cannot get enough people you join a Looking For Raid group.
No I really don't think you should force only one method of getting the best gear. It's not something one enjoys to be sure when the only reason you do it is for the gear. Make the raid interesting enough that it is a weekly thing for players to enjoy. By placing top gear there you are merely creating a hierarchy that ends in resentment.
Not saying the top gear in Everquest did not fall off those difficult raids but I suppose it was the fact that it was new to us all but the gear was a secondary it was the raid that took prominence. The activity over the loot. We don't think in those terms any more because we have become so methodical in our quest to the top of the game that having fun while doing it is an afterthought.
Comments
I find I have little trouble getting to sleep knowing I suck at video games. It really isn't that high on my "life goals" list. Actually, it's not there at all. hmmm....
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You can even fully integrate that into a game. Where those duel rankings end up increasing how fast a guild keep (land plot) can advance, while solo gathering PvE builds the keep, and grouped PvE raids ends up determining which bluffs the guild activates.
And that's barely even trying to design something that forcefully integrate play styles that are normally opposed.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
My ideals of MMORPG mostly align with much of what he has done. Have to see where he is trying to take his game.
IF a game has non-consensual PvP, I won't spend money on it, unless it has some particularly interesting design. I forked over the money for Crowfall, as I think they've got decent ideas. Koster has a lot of ideas, but not convinced that his PvP paradigms will work. We'll see.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Probably what's traditionally known as achievers. These're players who like to gain levels, acquire wealth or power in the game.
You simply cannot fully please everyone, admit that and players will be on side. You can mitigate certain issues, RvR does that for PvE and PvP as far I am concerned. But there are no perfect solutions or la-la land MMOs where we can all get together and play the exact gameplay play we all want to play.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not too sure how serious you are on a scale of 1>10, but I'm willing to bet your an 8 with your statement "Some are winners and some are losers".
Realistically,
By far most people believe playing video games are an unhealthy way of life. Many would somewhat approve if kept in perspective....... I have to be careful who I tell I play video games because the conversation could turn embarrassing and I'll have NO JUSTIFICATION for my counter argument.
Even within my self I sometimes feel embarrassed when I play too long or gloat to much over a prize. But their is something sick in saying "some people are winners and some are losers".
For me playing video games at times in an unhealthy way is one thing, but this statement brings it to a new level..... But then again to each their own.
Enjoy his barbs and just skip along like I do.
So if your game for example has raiding, adventuring, and crafting, you can get a good set of gear from each of them, but for the best of the best equipment you will have to pursue all three areas.
Clint Eastwood gets an awesome every time....Well done!
Remember, you're mixing aspects not every player wants to do. No one will be happy unless they enjoy ALL aspects required, which certainly some (many?) players do.
Is that making sense?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Whether a player chooses to play all aspects of the game, or totally specialize in just one, make the same top end equipment available to all.
EVE is basically like this, with everything being available for purchase or resale, as long as one has enough ISK, it's possible to obtain most anything.
Oh, for those really rare items which some players manage to get, like blue print originals or limited edition tournament ships CCP has got your back.
With the recent changes to Upwell structures making them vulnerable to attack and being looted even in High Sec after CCP promised they wouldn't be, the pirates went wild pillaging and looting trillions of ISK worth of rare gear from inactive players who never knew what hit them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is essentially what happened in WoW. At some point since the best gear fell off raid bosses they had to introduce LFR to enable people to get them. This is such a tragic turn on the whole concept of raiding. Raids were done by guilds as an event in Everquest. You got together in the weekend and spent hours raiding and sometimes walked away with nothing as I often did.
It didn't mean I didn't raid the next weekend, I did, because the raid itself was a great event. It was difficult and required organisation and sometimes we wiped and then we went back and got our corpses and moved further in. All that wonderful sense of adventure is gone now if you have to raid and when you cannot get enough people you join a Looking For Raid group.
No I really don't think you should force only one method of getting the best gear. It's not something one enjoys to be sure when the only reason you do it is for the gear. Make the raid interesting enough that it is a weekly thing for players to enjoy. By placing top gear there you are merely creating a hierarchy that ends in resentment.
Not saying the top gear in Everquest did not fall off those difficult raids but I suppose it was the fact that it was new to us all but the gear was a secondary it was the raid that took prominence. The activity over the loot. We don't think in those terms any more because we have become so methodical in our quest to the top of the game that having fun while doing it is an afterthought.