Brad never said Pantheon will be the successor of EQ, spiritual or otherwise. The goal has always been to strike a balance between old school mmo philosophy and modern mechanics. Here’s a short interview with Brad
“ This is the early design of Death in Pantheon, while we try to make death something to be feared, but not something that will cause unreasonable amounts of grief.”
All seems fairly consistent to this point in development.
That sounds like a reasonable thought process... if it's just you and the game.
But I thought Pantheon is all about group play, so how does that work when your death is caused by someone else in your party screwing up, as is often the case?
There is usually a quantification of "progression" (what @Vrika calls: you will try to play with players which are as good as you, or players that you know) and death loss works well with it.
In this case loss acts as a filter for bad players, and good players usually don't have this "Dunning Kruger" mentality (it's the other's fault, not mine), only bad players do.
1st group: - Bad player groups up with 4 good players. - They fail and lose 1 x death penalty - Bad player blames the others.
2nd group bad player: - Remains bad. Groups up with 4 good players. - They fail. He keeps blaming others. - Now bad player is at 2 x death penalty loss.
2nd group, good players: - They now get a good group of 5 players. - They succeed and progress, resulting in a 0 net loss.
Rinse/repeat and the bad players and the asses get left behind. Essentially a similar effect to ranking in PVP games.
That sounds like an idealized scenario but I have seen group content in every game I have ever played occasionally devolve into finger pointing about whether it was a bad pull, bad tanking, bad CC, bad healing, bad DPS, etc.... and that's when there are no death penalties of much consequence.
Lose some level XP because someone else screwed up and you'll see even more group drama.
I hate drama in games
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With strict death penalty comes with a lot of responsibility on developers part.
Every situation in retrieving must be doable for all classes. If not some classes may be ignored simply because it's harder for retrieval. If one class is over powered in this category most will pick only that class.
- Puts pressure on groups that needs full parties. - Will cause more selectivity for invites. - Mob spacing and distance to go around is more critical to return. - Stuns and stealth are much more critical. - More classes would need resurrections to bring back group players. - If a player goes all the way to bind points, then teleportation becomes more important.
It's impossible to say about strict death "good or bad" until the game mechanics are known...... EVEN FOR THE PLAYERS THAT WANT IT.
Be careful who you adventure with, they may get you killed...... The game may turn from fun to frustration.
I think you're all forgetting something this isn't an action game where you have to jump about and avoid stuff from what I have seen in the videos.
Bad players in this context isn't a player who is unable to jump the hoops and avoid stuff but one who is impatient. One who makes mistakes because they are selfish and worst of all will not learn and accept that the wipe was their fault. Or one who cannot handle that while pulling, separating mobs and so on in a dungeon or group things can go wrong. They immediately throw a fit at having died. Those players deserve to be left behind and that is how it should be.
You need to have people who group together and help each other out and tolerate mistakes and move on. Not whine, complain, blame and leave in a huff. You learn the game and stay the course. That is how you keep friends and groups and are invited again. That is what a game encouraging a community is about.
If they want to keep the spirit of Everquest this is how you do it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The devs have stated the death penalty effect is going to be adjusted durning Alpha, Beta and live by player feedback. Nothing has been locked down. If you have feedback, go to the Pantheon forums and give it. The devs are listing on this topic.
The devs have stated the death penalty effect is going to be adjusted durning Alpha, Beta and live by player feedback. Nothing has been locked down. If you have feedback, go to the Pantheon forums and give it. The devs are listing on this topic.
Opps looks like they shut down that thread lol if you go through the thread you will see lots of Devs reactions and insite. Its worth looking at if this is a big topic for you.
As long as the exp loss includes de-leveling, then I am happy with the death penalty.
If not, then I am unhappy. You need de-leveling (or something) at max level to keep the exp loss meaningful.
In one of the play sessions they did. That was covered and you will not down level. The down level mechanic did mess things up. Having a down level char from level 50, with level 50 skills, that downl leveled to play level 20 content or PvPing, really messed up EQ balance. Also for teaming, having someone lose a level really messed up team dynamics. Instead, at this point, may change, there will be a exp ballon. Where you will continue up to a point in getting negative exp you will need to progress through before you can advance your current level.
The devs have stated the death penalty effect is going to be adjusted durning Alpha, Beta and live by player feedback. Nothing has been locked down. If you have feedback, go to the Pantheon forums and give it. The devs are listing on this topic.
Don’t expect the penalty to get any harder, with exception of end game content(eg- further bind points). They want short gaming sessions to very much be an option and they’re looking for a balance between old school and modern mmos. The current plan for death penalty shows this. I think it’s a good sweet spot between new and old. There’s no modern mmo on the market with this harsh of a death penalty.
Durability hit needs better definition. Is that like wow where you can go get it repaired anytime? Id be ok with that but if durability loss is permanent then crap to that.
As long as the exp loss includes de-leveling, then I am happy with the death penalty.
If not, then I am unhappy. You need de-leveling (or something) at max level to keep the exp loss meaningful.
There are still masteries to be earned at max level. So they could technically have a system to lose mastery xp at max level.
I'm not sure mastery exp loss at max level would solve the problem. It would just delay it. Eventually, people will max out all the masteries, and then what? Exp debt would be meaningless again.
There needs to be something to equally penalize max level players who die. If not, then there are countless ways to abuse the system:
- naked training at lvl 50 - no penalty death, no need to get your corpse or repair gear since you're naked
- repeatedly wiping on raids only costs the guild bank some coin, not the time needed for each player to maintain their max level
- regrouping / rebuffing after a raid wipe is much faster if you give everyone 0% rezzes
- die soloing you don't have to find a healer to rez you, you simply can go loot your corpse and ignore the exp loss
Without de-leveling, the death penalty becomes more trivial at max level. It should stay constant or harder, but definitely not easier.
As long as the exp loss includes de-leveling, then I am happy with the death penalty.
If not, then I am unhappy. You need de-leveling (or something) at max level to keep the exp loss meaningful.
There are still masteries to be earned at max level. So they could technically have a system to lose mastery xp at max level.
I'm not sure mastery exp loss at max level would solve the problem. It would just delay it. Eventually, people will max out all the masteries, and then what? Exp debt would be meaningless again.
There needs to be something to equally penalize max level players who die. If not, then there are countless ways to abuse the system:
- naked training at lvl 50 - no penalty death, no need to get your corpse or repair gear since you're naked
- repeatedly wiping on raids only costs the guild bank some coin, not the time needed for each player to maintain their max level
- regrouping / rebuffing after a raid wipe is much faster if you give everyone 0% rezzes
- die soloing you don't have to find a healer to rez you, you simply can go loot your corpse and ignore the exp loss
Without de-leveling, the death penalty becomes more trivial at max level. It should stay constant or harder, but definitely not easier.
I think death penalty should be there but not something people should think about overly much. Fact is, with de-leveling. In EQ1 people would leave teams and raids when trying to learn new fights. Heavy death penalty of any type will do the same thing. I agree in some penalty but not to the cost that make players stop experimenting.
I wish VR was being a bit more creative with this game. The death penalty is one area that needs something new and innovative. Instead of giving us something interesting, they have chosen to reuse the EQ1 model with a few minor tweaks. It's a bit disappointing to me that they aren't trying something different. More evidence that the genre isn't evolving.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I wish VR was being a bit more creative with this game. The death penalty is one area that needs something new and innovative. Instead of giving us something interesting, they have chosen to reuse the EQ1 model with a few minor tweaks. It's a bit disappointing to me that they aren't trying something different. More evidence that the genre isn't evolving.
I have never been a fan of heavy death penalties. I agree would have been cool if they did something unique but I am not upset with what they landed on. Its not heavy handed and I did not want to play a de-level game and they even dropped the exp debt. So I am very happy!!!!
I would link loss of durability to accepting "return to bind", and then void it or make the loss less if you get resourected by another player (without releasing to bind).
Generally I wish there were more innovation in this project, but death penalty is hard to innovate on so ..
As long as the exp loss includes de-leveling, then I am happy with the death penalty.
If not, then I am unhappy. You need de-leveling (or something) at max level to keep the exp loss meaningful.
There are still masteries to be earned at max level. So they could technically have a system to lose mastery xp at max level.
I'm not sure mastery exp loss at max level would solve the problem. It would just delay it. Eventually, people will max out all the masteries, and then what? Exp debt would be meaningless again.
There needs to be something to equally penalize max level players who die. If not, then there are countless ways to abuse the system:
- naked training at lvl 50 - no penalty death, no need to get your corpse or repair gear since you're naked
- repeatedly wiping on raids only costs the guild bank some coin, not the time needed for each player to maintain their max level
- regrouping / rebuffing after a raid wipe is much faster if you give everyone 0% rezzes
- die soloing you don't have to find a healer to rez you, you simply can go loot your corpse and ignore the exp loss
Without de-leveling, the death penalty becomes more trivial at max level. It should stay constant or harder, but definitely not easier.
I think death penalty should be there but not something people should think about overly much. Fact is, with de-leveling. In EQ1 people would leave teams and raids when trying to learn new fights. Heavy death penalty of any type will do the same thing. I agree in some penalty but not to the cost that make players stop experimenting.
In early EQ, the only fear was losing your corpse and stuff. Experience loss meant nothing at max level. On a raid or just out grouping I could care less if I got an experience res or not. Just so I got my corpse and stuff back.
For the same reason, when my regular group was not on and no raids were going on, I would take my bard and go help lower levels or even equal level people recover their corpses.
I don't think we ever see another MMORPG where you can lose all your stuff in one death. They will have something washed down in this game.
Comments
All seems fairly consistent to this point in development.
Lose some level XP because someone else screwed up and you'll see even more group drama.
I hate drama in games
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Question for a developer is, which is the larger market to appeal to.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Every situation in retrieving must be doable for all classes. If not some classes may be ignored simply because it's harder for retrieval. If one class is over powered in this category most will pick only that class.
- Puts pressure on groups that needs full parties.
- Will cause more selectivity for invites.
- Mob spacing and distance to go around is more critical to return.
- Stuns and stealth are much more critical.
- More classes would need resurrections to bring back group players.
- If a player goes all the way to bind points, then teleportation becomes more important.
It's impossible to say about strict death "good or bad" until the game mechanics are known...... EVEN FOR THE PLAYERS THAT WANT IT.
Be careful who you adventure with, they may get you killed...... The game may turn from fun to frustration.
Bad players in this context isn't a player who is unable to jump the hoops and avoid stuff but one who is impatient. One who makes mistakes because they are selfish and worst of all will not learn and accept that the wipe was their fault. Or one who cannot handle that while pulling, separating mobs and so on in a dungeon or group things can go wrong. They immediately throw a fit at having died. Those players deserve to be left behind and that is how it should be.
You need to have people who group together and help each other out and tolerate mistakes and move on. Not whine, complain, blame and leave in a huff. You learn the game and stay the course. That is how you keep friends and groups and are invited again. That is what a game encouraging a community is about.
If they want to keep the spirit of Everquest this is how you do it.
Again Vanguard gets ignored.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty/view/post_id/27572
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12176/pantheon-s-death-penalty-joppa-reveal-from-july-25th/view/page/1
Lots of discussion going on
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I would link loss of durability to accepting "return to bind", and then void it or make the loss less if you get resourected by another player (without releasing to bind).
Generally I wish there were more innovation in this project, but death penalty is hard to innovate on so ..
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