I want Everquest 1...... I don't want a Spiritual Successor.
This video turned me off, it's nothing I want in a game. Wasn't expecting this crap, after years of investing my time wanting this game. All of a sudden I recently found out it was this... Never saw it coming !
Well, you don't have to do the perception system !.... Yes you do, it's the main feature.... riddles.... I'm too old, I want a game not puzzles.
THIS TURNS ME OFF.... And I'm sure many feel the same way.
I want Everquest 1...... I don't want a Spiritual Successor.
This video turned me off, it's nothing I want in a game. Wasn't expecting this crap, after years of investing my time wanting this game. All of a sudden I recently found out it was this... Never saw it coming !
Well, you don't have to do the perception system !.... Yes you do, it's the main feature.... riddles.... I'm too old, I want a game not puzzles.
THIS TURNS ME OFF.... And I'm sure many feel the same way.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
<snip>
When I played EQ1, I didn't do any of that. Quests were too hard to figure out on your own and completely unforgiving if you made a mistake. Like everyone else, I looked up the quests on Allakhazam to see what I needed to say and items I needed to give to the NPC. Even then, you had to be super careful not to mess up.
Can you honestly say you did one of the epic weapon quests in EQ1, all on your own simply by thinking and gathering clues from NPC chatter?
Like @BruceYee said in his post, I would much rather be able to figure out the puzzles and quests in game, without feeling forced to look up a guide online.
Did you somehow infer that I thought having an NPC eat an item you spent hours working on as a good feature? Is that what you got from my discussion? I thought I was pretty clear about some things being problems, but that the overall concept was what needed to be improved upon? You did understand that did you not?
What you describe is the problems with their implementation, not the game play concept itself.
Losing your item is not a good game play mechanic and I think Brad even stated in the past that such things were limitations/complications of the time, not intended design focus.
The problems with misspelled trigger words, issues with synonyms, etc... and issues with losing your items can be easily handled with today's tech.
If that is your concern that is...
If your argument is that the quests would be too complicated and so people would just look up the answers... well... you seem to be making my point as to why these games are being dumbed down for mainstream and who their real audience is.
I'm not concerned about NPCs eating items in EQ1, that's just icing on the "need to look up answers" cake.
My concern was related to the second thing you said. About questing in EQ1 being so perplexing that you have no other choice BUT to to look up the answers online.
You described EQ1 questing as this magical in-game experience, where you relying solely on your whits and listening to in-game dialog to complete every quests.
That was NOT my experience. If that was really how you completed every quest (I am skeptical), then you are in the vast minority.
You never answered my original question... did you complete an epic weapon quests in EQ1, all on your own simply by thinking and gathering clues from NPC chatter?
I want Everquest 1...... I don't want a Spiritual Successor.
This video turned me off, it's nothing I want in a game. Wasn't expecting this crap, after years of investing my time wanting this game. All of a sudden I recently found out it was this... Never saw it coming !
Well, you don't have to do the perception system !.... Yes you do, it's the main feature.... riddles.... I'm too old, I want a game not puzzles.
THIS TURNS ME OFF.... And I'm sure many feel the same way.
Things aren’t always about what “you” want.
That the thing with game development. They have to follow a unified vision of what they want to create. If you wait for a game developer to make your ideal game that hits all your wants. That game will never come. In my 20+ years of MMOing, I have learned you have to take the good with the bad. I call it my 2 buckets, one filled with the things I like about the game and a bucket of things I dont like. When the bad out weights the good. I move on. If I am having more fun than I am annoyed, I keep playing.
EQ required the player to interact, think and explore conversation. They had to think about content, items that dropped and what the NPCs said. They had to listen to chatter in the towns, the conversations between NPCs to gather clues in order to initiate new hidden conversations.
<snip>
When I played EQ1, I didn't do any of that. Quests were too hard to figure out on your own and completely unforgiving if you made a mistake. Like everyone else, I looked up the quests on Allakhazam to see what I needed to say and items I needed to give to the NPC. Even then, you had to be super careful not to mess up.
Can you honestly say you did one of the epic weapon quests in EQ1, all on your own simply by thinking and gathering clues from NPC chatter?
Like @BruceYee said in his post, I would much rather be able to figure out the puzzles and quests in game, without feeling forced to look up a guide online.
Did you somehow infer that I thought having an NPC eat an item you spent hours working on as a good feature? Is that what you got from my discussion? I thought I was pretty clear about some things being problems, but that the overall concept was what needed to be improved upon? You did understand that did you not?
What you describe is the problems with their implementation, not the game play concept itself.
Losing your item is not a good game play mechanic and I think Brad even stated in the past that such things were limitations/complications of the time, not intended design focus.
The problems with misspelled trigger words, issues with synonyms, etc... and issues with losing your items can be easily handled with today's tech.
If that is your concern that is...
If your argument is that the quests would be too complicated and so people would just look up the answers... well... you seem to be making my point as to why these games are being dumbed down for mainstream and who their real audience is.
I'm not concerned about NPCs eating items in EQ1, that's just icing on the "need to look up answers" cake.
My concern was related to the second thing you said. About questing in EQ1 being so perplexing that you have no other choice BUT to to look up the answers online.
You described EQ1 questing as this magical in-game experience, where you relying solely on your whits and listening to in-game dialog to complete every quests.
That was NOT my experience. If that was really how you completed every quest (I am skeptical), then you are in the vast minority.
You never answered my original question... did you complete an epic weapon quests in EQ1, all on your own simply by thinking and gathering clues from NPC chatter?
Perplexing?
I did a lot of questing in EQ and the only reason I looked up any epic info was because of the bugs with NPCs eating something if you got the turn in wrong *which for my epic, was a huge problem) in any order as I had ran into the problem with one quest line previously.
Aside from that, I quite enjoyed many of the quests as numerous ones required you to do some research, explore the towns (Neriak was famous for that, so was Qeynos), listen to conversations, etc... As I said, the "eating the quest item" was a horrible problem and unless the quest required a very rare turn, I didn't bother looking anything up.
Also, back when I was playing early on, quest hints didn't come in the form of hint sites, rather you would find information in the forums.
Lastly, I think I was pretty clear about numerous issues that EQ questing had (eating quest items, misspelled triggers causing the quest to not be completed, etc...), but aside from the technical issues I mentioned, I did enjoy many of the quests. Then again, I actually explored the towns, listened, talked with NPCs, paid attention to various clues you found around the world which led to quest openings and progressions.
It wasn't all magical glamour, but there was some very cool things about the system and its interaction.
Lastly, I really don't care if people cheat online, I don't play with that concern. My concern was always what I did in game and how it affected me. A person cheating their own game by looking up the hints online is irrelevant to my game play.
There are valid reasons people look these up in the context of multiplayer games apart from laziness/cheating: peer pressure and efficiency (keeping up with the rest of the playerbase). If even in games like Pantheon and EQ few people engage with this content (and on top it is much more complicated to implement) then it makes sense for it to be axed.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
When you perceive something in real life what do you do?
Do you have to follow a specific order of operations?Does one perception get locked out until you perceive the previous puzzle? That is all this really is a bunch of puzzles.This is WEAK sauce content ideas.
I have been asking for scripted and non scripted events,that means drawing up ACTION,several npc's ,players come together to defend a city a village and npc's not from some world boss but a whole tribe of npc's or a group of bandit npc's.
All this perception will do is throw down some trigger responses all over the map,trigger A condition is met,ok Trigger B is activated and awaits your response.The trigger property is made once for the ENTIRE set of puzzles all that needs to change is the requirements to activate the trigger. This type of stuff doesn't need ANY additional work,no fun scripted events at all,just triggers waiting to be met.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
For some it is peer pressure and feeling left behind. In no context is this cheating if it is public knowledge. Something posted on the internet is public knowledge, if you feel you are a great gamer or deep thinker by trying something that others have tried before you, try something that noone has tried before. That requires infinitely more effort and fortitude because it has no guaranteed result.
For me personally trying a novel build, game mastery, or devising a new strategy to gain power/territory/gold in a multiplayer game is way more interesting and challenging than going through a prepackaged story, however elaborately crafted through dialogs or hints. I prefer to go through that fast and see how I can innovate or challenge myself at the endgame. So it has nothing to do with growing a backbone, merely with a playstyle choice.
You keep caling everyone stupid, lazy or inept because they have different preferences to you thinking that you are better/more strong willed. That's textbook Dunning-Kruger. Your reasoning is lazy and inept.
Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to justify cheating.
Nothing new, people have been talking themselves into being just in their actions since the beginning of time.
You know, it isn't sex if you...
It isn't stealing if you...
It isn't lying if you...
Rationalizing with ones self to justify an action. It is a tale as old as time.
Fact is, if you go outside the game, look up how to get past a quest/objective/etc... it is cheating, and no amount of lying, redefining, or rationalizing changes that.
Lastly, sounds like you are trying to rationalize even your own argument and project.
Don't do logic, you aren't good at it. Keep "rationalizing", it suits you.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
Now I remember: tantrum guy who screamed at everyone and said he is done and will not come back.
Welcome back!
Ah, so you cheat games. Gotcha. No wonder you are upset.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
For some it is peer pressure and feeling left behind. In no context is this cheating if it is public knowledge. Something posted on the internet is public knowledge, if you feel you are a great gamer or deep thinker by trying something that others have tried before you, try something that noone has tried before. That requires infinitely more effort and fortitude because it has no guaranteed result.
For me personally trying a novel build, game mastery, or devising a new strategy to gain power/territory/gold in a multiplayer game is way more interesting and challenging than going through a prepackaged story, however elaborately crafted through dialogs or hints. I prefer to go through that fast and see how I can innovate or challenge myself at the endgame. So it has nothing to do with growing a backbone, merely with a playstyle choice.
You keep caling everyone stupid, lazy or inept because they have different preferences to you thinking that you are better/more strong willed. That's textbook Dunning-Kruger. Your reasoning is lazy and inept.
Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to justify cheating.
Nothing new, people have been talking themselves into being just in their actions since the beginning of time.
You know, it isn't sex if you...
It isn't stealing if you...
It isn't lying if you...
Rationalizing with ones self to justify an action. It is a tale as old as time.
Fact is, if you go outside the game, look up how to get past a quest/objective/etc... it is cheating, and no amount of lying, redefining, or rationalizing changes that.
Lastly, sounds like you are trying to rationalize even your own argument and project.
Don't do logic, you aren't good at it. Keep "rationalizing", it suits you.
Who says it's cheating??
By definition, it's only considered cheating if you break the rules of the game. Last I
checked, EverQuest 1 never had a rule forbidding players from looking up stuff
online.
Anyways, let me get this straight... you want a questing system that is so obtuse and tedious, like EQ1, that it requires players to be an expert in riddles and in-game lore in order to figure out how to complete each quest. And on top of that, you expect no one to use outside resources for help, because that would be "cheating"??
I'm with @BruceYee on this one. I would rather a questing system that is intuitive enough that I can at least figure out what I need to do (without having to look it up online), and the challenge come from actually trying to complete the objective.
Funcom's "The Secret World" MMORPG, was a lot about solving mysteries, riddles, and puzzles. People seemed to enjoy it a lot and took pride in not looking up stuff.
Funcom's "The Secret World" MMORPG, was a lot about solving mysteries, riddles, and puzzles. People seemed to enjoy it a lot and took pride in not looking up stuff.
I had totally forgot about that game. People really enjoyed not having their hands held. They had a great community as well.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
For some it is peer pressure and feeling left behind. In no context is this cheating if it is public knowledge. Something posted on the internet is public knowledge, if you feel you are a great gamer or deep thinker by trying something that others have tried before you, try something that noone has tried before. That requires infinitely more effort and fortitude because it has no guaranteed result.
For me personally trying a novel build, game mastery, or devising a new strategy to gain power/territory/gold in a multiplayer game is way more interesting and challenging than going through a prepackaged story, however elaborately crafted through dialogs or hints. I prefer to go through that fast and see how I can innovate or challenge myself at the endgame. So it has nothing to do with growing a backbone, merely with a playstyle choice.
You keep caling everyone stupid, lazy or inept because they have different preferences to you thinking that you are better/more strong willed. That's textbook Dunning-Kruger. Your reasoning is lazy and inept.
Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to justify cheating.
Nothing new, people have been talking themselves into being just in their actions since the beginning of time.
You know, it isn't sex if you...
It isn't stealing if you...
It isn't lying if you...
Rationalizing with ones self to justify an action. It is a tale as old as time.
Fact is, if you go outside the game, look up how to get past a quest/objective/etc... it is cheating, and no amount of lying, redefining, or rationalizing changes that.
Lastly, sounds like you are trying to rationalize even your own argument and project.
Don't do logic, you aren't good at it. Keep "rationalizing", it suits you.
Who says it's cheating??
By definition, it's only considered cheating if you break the rules of the game. Last I
checked, EverQuest 1 never had a rule forbidding players from looking up stuff
online.
Anyways, let me get this straight... you want a questing system that is so obtuse and tedious, like EQ1, that it requires players to be an expert in riddles and in-game lore in order to figure out how to complete each quest. And on top of that, you expect no one to use outside resources for help, because that would be "cheating"??
I'm with @BruceYee on this one. I would rather a questing system that is intuitive enough that I can at least figure out what I need to do (without having to look it up online), and the challenge come from actually trying to complete the objective.
Ratio tali hebetudine
If I have to explain the basics of what a game is, its purpose and why circumventing the rules is bad, there is no amount of discussion that can be made that will appeal to you.
The fact is, you are without a doubt... the exact thing that is meant when we talk about the mainstream gamer.
You don't want a game, you want entertainment, entertainment for dumb animals.
Funcom's "The Secret World" MMORPG, was a lot about solving mysteries, riddles, and puzzles. People seemed to enjoy it a lot and took pride in not looking up stuff.
Funcom's "The Secret World" MMORPG, was a lot about solving mysteries, riddles, and puzzles. People seemed to enjoy it a lot and took pride in not looking up stuff.
I had totally forgot about that game. People really enjoyed not having their hands held. They had a great community as well.
I absolutely loved that game (its questing that is).
I Alph/beta'd it and oh my lord, it was amazing, filled with intellectual puzzles and mystery, well... until the half-wit mainstream idiots got a hold of it and turned it into "Moron-Quest"!
The combat was garbage though (too spammy), which was sad. I remember the developers early on really trying to reach out and create a system of functionality which would allow skill based synergy (over that of class based) and unfortunately, once the mainstream WoW-Tard crew came in, they demanded class forced restrictions, dumbed down quests (so you know, the people who "work hurd all day flipping burgers" could you know, figure out da quests!)
It really was a shame, I loved the various mathematical quests (the one on series was cool) and the Morris code one was so darn awesome (I actually pulled out books on this and learned how to do military based Morris code audio process).
But, you know.. gotta appeal to the dumb animals, you know... cuz working dead beat jobs with low IQ requirements is soo... difficult.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
For some it is peer pressure and feeling left behind. In no context is this cheating if it is public knowledge. Something posted on the internet is public knowledge, if you feel you are a great gamer or deep thinker by trying something that others have tried before you, try something that noone has tried before. That requires infinitely more effort and fortitude because it has no guaranteed result.
For me personally trying a novel build, game mastery, or devising a new strategy to gain power/territory/gold in a multiplayer game is way more interesting and challenging than going through a prepackaged story, however elaborately crafted through dialogs or hints. I prefer to go through that fast and see how I can innovate or challenge myself at the endgame. So it has nothing to do with growing a backbone, merely with a playstyle choice.
You keep caling everyone stupid, lazy or inept because they have different preferences to you thinking that you are better/more strong willed. That's textbook Dunning-Kruger. Your reasoning is lazy and inept.
Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to justify cheating.
Nothing new, people have been talking themselves into being just in their actions since the beginning of time.
You know, it isn't sex if you...
It isn't stealing if you...
It isn't lying if you...
Rationalizing with ones self to justify an action. It is a tale as old as time.
Fact is, if you go outside the game, look up how to get past a quest/objective/etc... it is cheating, and no amount of lying, redefining, or rationalizing changes that.
Lastly, sounds like you are trying to rationalize even your own argument and project.
Don't do logic, you aren't good at it. Keep "rationalizing", it suits you.
Who says it's cheating??
By definition, it's only considered cheating if you break the rules of the game. Last I
checked, EverQuest 1 never had a rule forbidding players from looking up stuff
online.
Anyways, let me get this straight... you want a questing system that is so obtuse and tedious, like EQ1, that it requires players to be an expert in riddles and in-game lore in order to figure out how to complete each quest. And on top of that, you expect no one to use outside resources for help, because that would be "cheating"??
I'm with @BruceYee on this one. I would rather a questing system that is intuitive enough that I can at least figure out what I need to do (without having to look it up online), and the challenge come from actually trying to complete the objective.
Ratio tali hebetudine
If I have to explain the basics of what a game is, its purpose and why circumventing the rules is bad, there is no amount of discussion that can be made that will appeal to you.
The fact is, you are without a doubt... the exact thing that is meant when we talk about the mainstream gamer.
You don't want a game, you want entertainment, entertainment for dumb animals.
You're dreaming if you expect players to follow your "unwritten" rules about not looking things up online in EQ1. How do you explain the popularity of sites like Allakhazam??
Forcing players to have a website up in their second monitor in order to be competitive, is bad game design plain and simple.
This is an MMORPG we're talking about, not a single player game. You might like to take your time reading lore and NPC dialog as the whole server passes you by, but I prefer to keep pace and level with my friends.
However, the Pantheon Death penalty never changed. Even on the Kickstarter Brad had posted about it being somewhere between EQ - VG which the current Pantheon death penalty meets. With that said, I also want a more harsh death penalty, and I think not having naked corpse runs is a bad idea, which I’ll continue to argue for until release - but its disingenuous to say that its changed or become less harsh.
Except it did change, because I was there when it happened. Pantheon used to have EQ1's death penalty where you dropped everything, including what you were wearing. They only recently changed it to dropping your inventory only. It may have been Brad's intention in the beginning, but I'm just explaining the actual mechanic in the game was more EQ1 to start than it is now.
Fair enough - I was just disputing your claim the original vision changed. I’d much prefer EQ1s system (or harsher) as well.
However, the Pantheon Death penalty never changed. Even on the Kickstarter Brad had posted about it being somewhere between EQ - VG which the current Pantheon death penalty meets. With that said, I also want a more harsh death penalty, and I think not having naked corpse runs is a bad idea, which I’ll continue to argue for until release - but its disingenuous to say that its changed or become less harsh.
Except it did change, because I was there when it happened. Pantheon used to have EQ1's death penalty where you dropped everything, including what you were wearing. They only recently changed it to dropping your inventory only. It may have been Brad's intention in the beginning, but I'm just explaining the actual mechanic in the game was more EQ1 to start than it is now.
Fair enough - I was just disputing your claim the original vision changed. I’d much prefer EQ1s system (or harsher) as well.
He is wrong, they never knew what they were going to do with Death Penalty. Anything they had in place, was a placeholder as they decided what would be added. They have had dussions on the Pantheon forums. VIP backers feedback and the vision Bard had for the game. They always said that the death penalty would be in the game but what they landed on would fit their game and its game systems. The Death Penalty they landed on, closed the topic on the forums and they have been clear, no feedback will be looked at but by people testing the game. There has been a progression thats been very natural to the conclusion that have landed on. Never once has it been a change of direction.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Yeah well EQ1 death penalty was fine until you lost a corpse due to a game bug and could as a result not recover it due to the same bug. Don't say you could ask a GM for help, some of them were asses and would not help no matter what and would not ever bother to check the issue out.
With a death penalty like early EQ1 you need either a totally bug free game (not possible) or a method to recover the corpse when lost due to a game bug which EQ did not have. If Pantheon has such then I am fine with a EQ1 like death penalty.
Is that an issue with the game mechanic or their customer service? I suspect more the latter.
It was a bit of both.
Even in EQ, I don't think it was normal for you to get instantly summoned to the bottom of the place and instantly killed by the boss dragon the second you zone in the dungeon. And then when you attempt to recover your corpse, what appears to be the whole population of the dungeon is waiting on you and your group and kills you before you finish zoning in.
Of course then you have a GM who would not even bother to check into the issue.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
For some it is peer pressure and feeling left behind. In no context is this cheating if it is public knowledge. Something posted on the internet is public knowledge, if you feel you are a great gamer or deep thinker by trying something that others have tried before you, try something that noone has tried before. That requires infinitely more effort and fortitude because it has no guaranteed result.
For me personally trying a novel build, game mastery, or devising a new strategy to gain power/territory/gold in a multiplayer game is way more interesting and challenging than going through a prepackaged story, however elaborately crafted through dialogs or hints. I prefer to go through that fast and see how I can innovate or challenge myself at the endgame. So it has nothing to do with growing a backbone, merely with a playstyle choice.
You keep caling everyone stupid, lazy or inept because they have different preferences to you thinking that you are better/more strong willed. That's textbook Dunning-Kruger. Your reasoning is lazy and inept.
Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to justify cheating.
Nothing new, people have been talking themselves into being just in their actions since the beginning of time.
You know, it isn't sex if you...
It isn't stealing if you...
It isn't lying if you...
Rationalizing with ones self to justify an action. It is a tale as old as time.
Fact is, if you go outside the game, look up how to get past a quest/objective/etc... it is cheating, and no amount of lying, redefining, or rationalizing changes that.
Lastly, sounds like you are trying to rationalize even your own argument and project.
Don't do logic, you aren't good at it. Keep "rationalizing", it suits you.
Who says it's cheating??
By definition, it's only considered cheating if you break the rules of the game. Last I
checked, EverQuest 1 never had a rule forbidding players from looking up stuff
online.
Anyways, let me get this straight... you want a questing system that is so obtuse and tedious, like EQ1, that it requires players to be an expert in riddles and in-game lore in order to figure out how to complete each quest. And on top of that, you expect no one to use outside resources for help, because that would be "cheating"??
I'm with @BruceYee on this one. I would rather a questing system that is intuitive enough that I can at least figure out what I need to do (without having to look it up online), and the challenge come from actually trying to complete the objective.
Ratio tali hebetudine
If I have to explain the basics of what a game is, its purpose and why circumventing the rules is bad, there is no amount of discussion that can be made that will appeal to you.
The fact is, you are without a doubt... the exact thing that is meant when we talk about the mainstream gamer.
You don't want a game, you want entertainment, entertainment for dumb animals.
You're dreaming if you expect players to follow your "unwritten" rules about not looking things up online in EQ1. How do you explain the popularity of sites like Allakhazam??
Forcing players to have a website up in their second monitor in order to be competitive, is bad game design plain and simple.
This is an MMORPG we're talking about, not a single player game. You might like to take your time reading lore and NPC dialog as the whole server passes you by, but I prefer to keep pace and level with my friends.
Follow my unwritten rules?
No wonder you hate quests as I describe, you are evidently have trouble with reading comprehension.
I don't care if idiots cheat out there, they only ruin their own game. If they are so completely stupid that they will ruin their own game play by looking up all the cheats, then that is on them, let the dumb animals ruin their own game play, it does not matter to me.
Why should everything be dumbed down because a bunch of half wit low intellect kiddies want to cheat? Why should quests be made for the moronic, zones be designed for the open mouth droolers, and content be created for barely capable monkeys just because they will like the dumb animals that they are... go cheat?
You do realize, I can refrain from heading to a site to look up cheats? I can refrain from printing out all the maps before I learned the zones. I can refrain from looking up all the hints, answers, and tricks to the zones? Why must we cater to the low life animals who can barely process oxygen without loosing train of thought?
Can you keep up or would you like me to make you a map and provide all the answers for you?
However, the Pantheon Death penalty never changed. Even on the Kickstarter Brad had posted about it being somewhere between EQ - VG which the current Pantheon death penalty meets. With that said, I also want a more harsh death penalty, and I think not having naked corpse runs is a bad idea, which I’ll continue to argue for until release - but its disingenuous to say that its changed or become less harsh.
Except it did change, because I was there when it happened. Pantheon used to have EQ1's death penalty where you dropped everything, including what you were wearing. They only recently changed it to dropping your inventory only. It may have been Brad's intention in the beginning, but I'm just explaining the actual mechanic in the game was more EQ1 to start than it is now.
Fair enough - I was just disputing your claim the original vision changed. I’d much prefer EQ1s system (or harsher) as well.
It didn't full out change Raidan_EQ, rather the "belief" by contributors were let to believe there was going to be more akin to EQ's system. It was quite clear from early on that the bulk of the players who supported this game early on wanted a naked corpse run and many of the elements of play that are now pushed aside. You can claim they were naive, but don't cover for VR, they knew what they were doing.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Yeah well EQ1 death penalty was fine until you lost a corpse due to a game bug and could as a result not recover it due to the same bug. Don't say you could ask a GM for help, some of them were asses and would not help no matter what and would not ever bother to check the issue out.
With a death penalty like early EQ1 you need either a totally bug free game (not possible) or a method to recover the corpse when lost due to a game bug which EQ did not have. If Pantheon has such then I am fine with a EQ1 like death penalty.
Is that an issue with the game mechanic or their customer service? I suspect more the latter.
It was a bit of both.
Even in EQ, I don't think it was normal for you to get instantly summoned to the bottom of the place and instantly killed by the boss dragon the second you zone in the dungeon. And then when you attempt to recover your corpse, what appears to be the whole population of the dungeon is waiting on you and your group and kills you before you finish zoning in.
Of course then you have a GM who would not even bother to check into the issue.
I would say that a player should not be killed before their screen shows the game. However, I would also say a player should not be guaranteed to recover their corpse without incident if the game is "that type of game."
As I've said before, my first mmorpg was lineage 2 and we sucked it up.
I died trying to get to Antharas' cave (wasn't a port back then and was disappointed to see one put eventually put in) and I dropped a piece of gear.
I had a choice, buy another piece of gear and try to retrieve my dropped gear OR go back and take my chances. Gear in Lineage 2 is VERY expensive.
I took the chance, when back and just as I was 6' or so away from the dropped gear, some skeleton things charged me from off-screen, killed me, and I dropped another piece of gear.
I then bought "cheap" gear, ran back and both pieces were gone. And that was the end of it as that was the game.
No complaints.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Why should everything be dumbed down because a bunch of half wit low intellect kiddies want to cheat?
Low ROI. It would cost in development resources and apparently the studio believes it is not a "bunch of half wit low intellect kiddies" but the majority of the target audience that wants it this way or simply doesn't care.
Yet this is the very thing they marketed on from the start... that they weren't chasing after mainstream, that they didn't want to make yet another mainstream game or cater to that crowd..
Yet here we are...
The only sad thing is that these studios end up killing any chance a crowd fund of such nature could ever exist.
They all sell out, they all are charlatans.
Oh well, I am only out the price of a single game, too bad for the suckers who spent hundreds and thousands on them (or the idiot that bought the 10k package).
This is why most entertainment is dying. Pretty soon, they will be playing "owe my balls" and you folks will be defending how its quality entertainment for the masses.
I've been following Pantheon for a very long time. Only one thing has come up that has disappointed me. Yes, I still consider Pantheon a spiritual successor to EQ1, whether anyone agrees with that or not. Anyhow, the only thing they've decided to change since Pantheon's conception is the death penalty. You currently only drop your inventory items instead of everything, which was how the game was originally designed, because you guessed it, that's how it was in EQ1. While the new death penalty seems adequate for today's impatient ADHD gamers, I found EQ1's death penalty appropriate for testing one's intelligence before recklessly entering combat like everyone seems to do in every other MMO since death means absolutely nothing.
Yeah well EQ1 death penalty was fine until you lost a corpse due to a game bug and could as a result not recover it due to the same bug. Don't say you could ask a GM for help, some of them were asses and would not help no matter what and would not ever bother to check the issue out.
With a death penalty like early EQ1 you need either a totally bug free game (not possible) or a method to recover the corpse when lost due to a game bug which EQ did not have. If Pantheon has such then I am fine with a EQ1 like death penalty.
Is that an issue with the game mechanic or their customer service? I suspect more the latter.
It was a bit of both.
Even in EQ, I don't think it was normal for you to get instantly summoned to the bottom of the place and instantly killed by the boss dragon the second you zone in the dungeon. And then when you attempt to recover your corpse, what appears to be the whole population of the dungeon is waiting on you and your group and kills you before you finish zoning in.
Of course then you have a GM who would not even bother to check into the issue.
I would say that a player should not be killed before their screen shows the game. However, I would also say a player should not be guaranteed to recover their corpse without incident if the game is "that type of game."
As I've said before, my first mmorpg was lineage 2 and we sucked it up.
I died trying to get to Antharas' cave (wasn't a port back then and was disappointed to see one put eventually put in) and I dropped a piece of gear.
I had a choice, buy another piece of gear and try to retrieve my dropped gear OR go back and take my chances. Gear in Lineage 2 is VERY expensive.
I took the chance, when back and just as I was 6' or so away from the dropped gear, some skeleton things charged me from off-screen, killed me, and I dropped another piece of gear.
I then bought "cheap" gear, ran back and both pieces were gone. And that was the end of it as that was the game.
Comments
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I did a lot of questing in EQ and the only reason I looked up any epic info was because of the bugs with NPCs eating something if you got the turn in wrong *which for my epic, was a huge problem) in any order as I had ran into the problem with one quest line previously.
Aside from that, I quite enjoyed many of the quests as numerous ones required you to do some research, explore the towns (Neriak was famous for that, so was Qeynos), listen to conversations, etc... As I said, the "eating the quest item" was a horrible problem and unless the quest required a very rare turn, I didn't bother looking anything up.
Also, back when I was playing early on, quest hints didn't come in the form of hint sites, rather you would find information in the forums.
Lastly, I think I was pretty clear about numerous issues that EQ questing had (eating quest items, misspelled triggers causing the quest to not be completed, etc...), but aside from the technical issues I mentioned, I did enjoy many of the quests. Then again, I actually explored the towns, listened, talked with NPCs, paid attention to various clues you found around the world which led to quest openings and progressions.
It wasn't all magical glamour, but there was some very cool things about the system and its interaction.
There is? What reasons would those be? I see no logical position that could validate cheating in a game as such other than to avoid the game harming your efforts (ie eating a quest item).
Ok, I read that wrong... so peer pressure is a reason? If you feel pressure by peers, better gain back bone or find another game. This is not a valid reason to cheat, rather it is an excuse for the weak willed.
I mean, if you can't keep up, find another group to play with, cheating is pathetic in that sense as it affirms the person IS lazy or inept.
Do you have to follow a specific order of operations?Does one perception get locked out until you perceive the previous puzzle?
That is all this really is a bunch of puzzles.This is WEAK sauce content ideas.
I have been asking for scripted and non scripted events,that means drawing up ACTION,several npc's ,players come together to defend a city a village and npc's not from some world boss but a whole tribe of npc's or a group of bandit npc's.
All this perception will do is throw down some trigger responses all over the map,trigger A condition is met,ok Trigger B is activated and awaits your response.The trigger property is made once for the ENTIRE set of puzzles all that needs to change is the requirements to activate the trigger.
This type of stuff doesn't need ANY additional work,no fun scripted events at all,just triggers waiting to be met.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Sounds like a lot of rationalizing to justify cheating.
Nothing new, people have been talking themselves into being just in their actions since the beginning of time.
You know, it isn't sex if you...
It isn't stealing if you...
It isn't lying if you...
Rationalizing with ones self to justify an action. It is a tale as old as time.
Fact is, if you go outside the game, look up how to get past a quest/objective/etc... it is cheating, and no amount of lying, redefining, or rationalizing changes that.
Lastly, sounds like you are trying to rationalize even your own argument and project.
Don't do logic, you aren't good at it. Keep "rationalizing", it suits you.
If I have to explain the basics of what a game is, its purpose and why circumventing the rules is bad, there is no amount of discussion that can be made that will appeal to you.
The fact is, you are without a doubt... the exact thing that is meant when we talk about the mainstream gamer.
You don't want a game, you want entertainment, entertainment for dumb animals.
I absolutely loved that game (its questing that is).
I Alph/beta'd it and oh my lord, it was amazing, filled with intellectual puzzles and mystery, well... until the half-wit mainstream idiots got a hold of it and turned it into "Moron-Quest"!
The combat was garbage though (too spammy), which was sad. I remember the developers early on really trying to reach out and create a system of functionality which would allow skill based synergy (over that of class based) and unfortunately, once the mainstream WoW-Tard crew came in, they demanded class forced restrictions, dumbed down quests (so you know, the people who "work hurd all day flipping burgers" could you know, figure out da quests!)
It really was a shame, I loved the various mathematical quests (the one on series was cool) and the Morris code one was so darn awesome (I actually pulled out books on this and learned how to do military based Morris code audio process).
But, you know.. gotta appeal to the dumb animals, you know... cuz working dead beat jobs with low IQ requirements is soo... difficult.
Flipping dumb animals.
No wonder you hate quests as I describe, you are evidently have trouble with reading comprehension.
I don't care if idiots cheat out there, they only ruin their own game. If they are so completely stupid that they will ruin their own game play by looking up all the cheats, then that is on them, let the dumb animals ruin their own game play, it does not matter to me.
Why should everything be dumbed down because a bunch of half wit low intellect kiddies want to cheat? Why should quests be made for the moronic, zones be designed for the open mouth droolers, and content be created for barely capable monkeys just because they will like the dumb animals that they are... go cheat?
You do realize, I can refrain from heading to a site to look up cheats? I can refrain from printing out all the maps before I learned the zones. I can refrain from looking up all the hints, answers, and tricks to the zones? Why must we cater to the low life animals who can barely process oxygen without loosing train of thought?
Can you keep up or would you like me to make you a map and provide all the answers for you?
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yet here we are...
The only sad thing is that these studios end up killing any chance a crowd fund of such nature could ever exist.
They all sell out, they all are charlatans.
Oh well, I am only out the price of a single game, too bad for the suckers who spent hundreds and thousands on them (or the idiot that bought the 10k package).
This is why most entertainment is dying. Pretty soon, they will be playing "owe my balls" and you folks will be defending how its quality entertainment for the masses.
http://www.amigaforever.com/
That is the legal emulator. I think they even have some games.
I will let the clever figure out the rest.
It is funny though. The Amiga games make a lot of modern games look stupid (in terms of game play)