You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I personally don't feel that players would want to return to those days.
Like anything, I believe it is purely a case of rose colored glasses, like drinking the cheap beer from your college days, wondering how you ever ingested such trash, and even thought you enjoyed it.
If players wanted to return to anything, it would be their youth, not the stupid things they squandered it away on.
I don't think this is necessarily true.
Classic servers kind of prove otherwise. People want the experiences they had back in the day, and while some of it might be rose colored glasses, a lot of it isn't. When I played Classic WoW, I experienced some of the stuff I loved and had genuine fun, just running around talking to people, people inviting me to groups to do harder quests, it was fun. If what you said was true, then EQ classic servers wouldn't be around, WoW classic servers would be dead, and Oldschool Runescape wouldn't be more popular than most MMORPG's today.
Sure it's a waste of time, but most hobbies are and were back then too. If I went back to my youth, I would probably do most of the same things I did all over again because I enjoyed them.
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I personally don't feel that players would want to return to those days.
Like anything, I believe it is purely a case of rose colored glasses, like drinking the cheap beer from your college days, wondering how you ever ingested such trash, and even thought you enjoyed it.
If players wanted to return to anything, it would be their youth, not the stupid things they squandered it away on.
I don't think this is necessarily true.
Classic servers kind of prove otherwise. People want the experiences they had back in the day, and while some of it might be rose colored glasses, a lot of it isn't. When I played Classic WoW, I experienced some of the stuff I loved and had genuine fun, just running around talking to people, people inviting me to groups to do harder quests, it was fun. If what you said was true, then EQ classic servers wouldn't be around, WoW classic servers would be dead, and Oldschool Runescape wouldn't be more popular than most MMORPG's today.
Sure it's a waste of time, but most hobbies are and were back then too. If I went back to my youth, I would probably do most of the same things I did all over again because I enjoyed them.
WoW Classic servers have dropped allot of population. P1999 only sports a few thousand players. I think people want games to be harder and have some old school mentality on parts of the game. Myself I love classes that are unbalanced so that each class shines at a role they are designed to do. Class interdependence IMO brought people together.
My point is, I think people always want the modern toys that go with it. Functioning AH, modern UIs, modern graphics, freedom in class builds to be unique, etc, etc. Its sad some real gems of games like DAoC and EQ1 were never given the upgrades they should have. BLizzard did a great job keeping WoW relevant.
I am an optimist when it comes to MMORPGs. I believe we will have another rennaisance, another golden age, that will bring back the excitement and feelings that we once had 15 years ago. The mechanics will be different, the design will be different, but the feelings will be similar.
How do we get there?
That's the tricky part. You will never get the same feelings of wonder and excitement by playing games that you've basically already played before. So, repeating old school designs won't give you that feeling, nor will borrowing from other genres that you are already familiar with. This is essentially the problem with current MMORPGs: they are basically just single player RPGs that you already know how to play, just with extra people and marginally more depth.
But, at some point in the future, some unknown studio will come along and blow us all away with their "radical" design that reimagines the genre in a way that appeals to core gamers. Then, other studios will start to copy that new design, in the same way that everyone borrowed from WoW, and the genre will explode for another decade.....until it stagnates again.
My prediction is that the new design paradigm will be sandbox, because sandbox has a ton of potential for an mmorpg but nobody has really gotten it right yet, we've never even had a AAA attempt at a sandbox. It will be focused on massively multiplayer, because that is the only unique selling point of the genre, literally can't get it anywhere else, so focusing on it makes a ton of sense.....if you can create great experiences out of that many people. It will also have a great IP, because we gamers are very fickle so we need a good IP to draw us in.
With the way the market stands, I reckon we're 10-15 years away from seeing such a game. I hope we get there sooner.
It'll be here in just a few years, in my opinion. Raph Koster's building his game, and that's the one I think will change the game. But I'm sure there will be some others too, who may or may not make an impact. It's a tough thing to build and requires expertise, and that's why I think Raph will be the one.
I keep forgetting Raph is making an MMO :-)
I do have high hopes for it, I love his way of thinking. The only thing I question is his budget. You can have all the best design in the world, but if the budget isn't there, it's either not getting made or wont find a big enough audience. Still, even if his game isn't a success, his ideas could inspire AAA devs to return to the mmo market.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I personally don't feel that players would want to return to those days.
Like anything, I believe it is purely a case of rose colored glasses, like drinking the cheap beer from your college days, wondering how you ever ingested such trash, and even thought you enjoyed it.
If players wanted to return to anything, it would be their youth, not the stupid things they squandered it away on.
Steinbecks! Later on we got "Generic Beer!"
Like any singular, or vast list of features, it matters not about any feature, but how those features are implemented. As we "struggled" with old MMORPGs of yore, we did it with friends and struggled together.
Much like air travel today, you certainly get places faster, but I miss my summer vacations with my family traveling across America in my Dad's camper. I saw almost all of the states from the East Coast to the West Coast. The journey was amazing.
This is how I see video games (RPGs) today. With a few exceptions, most are designed to get you from point A to point B in the quickest time possible with few deviations. Choices are pared back. Everything can be done with a singular character. Sure, they're fun while they last, but replay value has gone out the window.
Don't me wrong, I fully understand why this is: business. Instead of playing a few games for a few years, we now need to play multiple games games for just a bit. "One (Won) and Done" is the business mantra today. This is prevalent in MMOs, too, Play all the content, log off and play something else until the next patch/expansion/DLC arrives.
It's not bad or wrong. It's just not what I want in video games. I'm sure my measly wallet will devastate the industry
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I still log into EQ1 every now and then....I am on 2 servers, both guilds I am in have over 100 people, but the last log in other than mine was in 2016.......The community definitely made the game.....
EQ1 hurt itself by opening all the progression servers. These pulled players from existing servers to do the 're-visit the past' thing. The old legacy servers are shells of themselves, and most are barren, with 2-5 main guilds doing the high-end content and pretty much nothing otherwise. They already tried appease the rose-colored glasses crowd and wrecked the older servers in the process.
I play semi-regularly on 3 different servers and was in guilds on all three. All of the guilds that I belonged to are empty. (/who all Brewmasters lets me know how few of the originals are still around). It might as well just give me a '404 guild not found' message.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I personally don't feel that players would want to return to those days.
Like anything, I believe it is purely a case of rose colored glasses, like drinking the cheap beer from your college days, wondering how you ever ingested such trash, and even thought you enjoyed it.
If players wanted to return to anything, it would be their youth, not the stupid things they squandered it away on.
Squandered?
And I never drank cheap beer. If it didn't taste good I didn't drink it.
I would love to have a more old school game. Not sure why some people think that because they were played in our youth that we wouldn't be interested in them
I currently have been playing Daggerfall because it's good.
I play morrowind because it's good.
I loaded up and was playing prince of persia but now that there is a remake coming out I'll play that as the old game has control issues.
Modern games look great, control great (usually) but they aren't necessarily great.
As for mmorpg's I have Lord of the Rings Online, Ryzom and Everquest on my computer.
I think I'm clear about the type of experience I'm looking for.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I currently have been playing Daggerfall because it's good.
I play morrowind because it's good.
As an aside...
Do you use mods with these? I do for Morrowind (graphics, basically), but was curious about Daggerfall. I think I've seen a "Unity version" for Daggerfall
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I personally don't feel that players would want to return to those days.
Like anything, I believe it is purely a case of rose colored glasses, like drinking the cheap beer from your college days, wondering how you ever ingested such trash, and even thought you enjoyed it.
If players wanted to return to anything, it would be their youth, not the stupid things they squandered it away on.
I don't think this is necessarily true.
Classic servers kind of prove otherwise. People want the experiences they had back in the day, and while some of it might be rose colored glasses, a lot of it isn't. When I played Classic WoW, I experienced some of the stuff I loved and had genuine fun, just running around talking to people, people inviting me to groups to do harder quests, it was fun. If what you said was true, then EQ classic servers wouldn't be around, WoW classic servers would be dead, and Oldschool Runescape wouldn't be more popular than most MMORPG's today.
Sure it's a waste of time, but most hobbies are and were back then too. If I went back to my youth, I would probably do most of the same things I did all over again because I enjoyed them.
WoW Classic servers have dropped allot of population. P1999 only sports a few thousand players. I think people want games to be harder and have some old school mentality on parts of the game. Myself I love classes that are unbalanced so that each class shines at a role they are designed to do. Class interdependence IMO brought people together.
My point is, I think people always want the modern toys that go with it. Functioning AH, modern UIs, modern graphics, freedom in class builds to be unique, etc, etc. Its sad some real gems of games like DAoC and EQ1 were never given the upgrades they should have. BLizzard did a great job keeping WoW relevant.
I do agree on population drop but it isn't nearly as much as people thought was going to happen. My server, and people I talk to on other servers have packed servers still. Sure there will obviously be falloff because of people who try it and leave or don't have as much time as they used to, or like any big deal everyone wants to go try even if they have no want to actually play that type of game so they leave quickly after. P1999 has an extremely consistent population, and has for years, the people that like that era of EQ are playing it. I would be but I have to jump through too many hoops to play with my girlfriend on the same IP. EQ classic servers on the retail client are still going pretty damn strong too though.
I think modern features are great, and I honestly prefer them, but that doesn't mean that they can't exist with classic games as well. I just think it's dishonest to handwave any idea that players want to play classic games, as there's obviously demand for them, just not as high as modern (other than runescape, that's a weird one)
I currently have been playing Daggerfall because it's good.
I play morrowind because it's good.
As an aside...
Do you use mods with these? I do for Morrowind (graphics, basically), but was curious about Daggerfall. I think I've seen a "Unity version" for Daggerfall
oh dude.
RUN don't walk, download the unity version. It's so easy to set up and so easy to use.
And it looks and controls amazing.
I use a few mods to make morrowind look better as well.
I generally don't download mods that change game play, just additional dungeons/quests or items/item skins for the elder scrolls games.
But I find the original daggerfall unplayable now that I've played this Unity version.
Have you downloaded it yet? Hmmm? Hmmm? I'll wait ...
And yes I have downloaded a few mods to make daggerfall look better. Incuding one that changes the terrain to actually be "terrain" (as opposed to what you would find in flatland.
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
This is really well said. I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
EQ was fun. It wasn't "THE Holy Grail" of all gaming. The MMORPG space got "invaded" in 2004 and on. This is why I sound curmudgeonly when I disagree with "easy access for all."
The player base from pre-2004 is gone. Even if they played "back then", many have "changed and adapted" to the new ways of playing, those quick time slots, that shallow "everyone can do everything" attitude, that lack of differences, and especially the disappearance of redundancy.
This isn't a bad thing. It's great that many players have adapted and are enjoying games today. I wonder how quickly they'd back if old, deep RPGs came back, if at all
I personally don't feel that players would want to return to those days.
Like anything, I believe it is purely a case of rose colored glasses, like drinking the cheap beer from your college days, wondering how you ever ingested such trash, and even thought you enjoyed it.
If players wanted to return to anything, it would be their youth, not the stupid things they squandered it away on.
I don't think this is necessarily true.
Classic servers kind of prove otherwise. People want the experiences they had back in the day, and while some of it might be rose colored glasses, a lot of it isn't. When I played Classic WoW, I experienced some of the stuff I loved and had genuine fun, just running around talking to people, people inviting me to groups to do harder quests, it was fun. If what you said was true, then EQ classic servers wouldn't be around, WoW classic servers would be dead, and Oldschool Runescape wouldn't be more popular than most MMORPG's today.
Sure it's a waste of time, but most hobbies are and were back then too. If I went back to my youth, I would probably do most of the same things I did all over again because I enjoyed them.
Allow me to take this moment to reflect here, and you have brought up a great point, with WoW Classic/Vanilla.
That was launched, what? A few short months ago, IIRC. Less than a year, I believe. I could be wrong. But in any case, it was not that long ago.
How active are those servers now?
I mean, just to get an idea, I don't think they needed to double their server capacity to relaunch WoW Classic, and I wager there was not millions of returning players there to rekindle their old days.
On top of that, IIRC, it was more a flash in pan kind of deal, like going back to magic mountain as an adult, to recap your youth. It's not the same, it might be fun for a day, a brief interlude to that childhood moment, but, just a sample was enough.
No one planned to relive it, to reinvest the next 10 years into doing it all from start again, like they did they first time, because they know how that story ends.
And even then, no one really wanted to go back to launch, where we had to deal with game breaking bugs.
We wanted some recreation of the best of the past, not the all of it.
Just like the times that make Magic Mountain great, are when you bring your kids there, and see their eyes light up to the magic, albeit, nothing makes you feel older than your children telling that what enthralled you as a child feels old and stale to them.
Now I playing a game is 12 years old, DDO, but a lot has changed in those 12 years, I am not playing the same game it was 12 years ago, and I am not the same player I was 12 years ago. We both have grown and changed over the years. Perhaps for the better, maybe for the worse. It's kinda hard to tell.
Same with games like WoW. The game it is today is not the game it was 16 years ago, just like the players are not the same, even those that have been there since Beta, are the not the same people, they don't play the same ways, and they don't have the same styles as they did in their past.
Many I wager, did in fact try the Classic, to reminisce, but at the end of the day, that is all it ever was going to be to them, just a taste. They never had the intention to stay there.
Which brings us to modern games.
No, you can't go back to some bygone moment, they are not going to try and reinvent Classic WoW, or Classic EQ, those games were made, and that time has passed.
Just like making steam powered cars. They are relics, and while people build and restore them, if they want to be on the roads, they need to meet modern standards, they need to have proper headlights, old whale oil lanterns are not going to work. They need to have seatbelts, and their breaking system needs to be more than a 2x4 pressed against their axle.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You cannot regain your MMORPG virginity. Our first was always something special.
They're just two different things.
there is a difference between wanting to go back to one's "hey day" and get the same feelings that you felt way back when and wanting different features.
And my thought is that "wanting to go back" is never healthy, whether it's one's video game history or the history of their life.
But some people don't want a big f'ing glowy thing on the map so they know where to go. Or complete hand holding through every single thing so that it's just follow the bouncing ball.
That's all boring to some. It's dull. but that doesn't mean there isn't another type of merit in those games and a merit that some find appealing.
Some people want the sense of discovery that a game can have. And some want to play "a game" with very clear objectives, very clear places to go, very clear everything.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
I was reading a recent thread in the ESO forums about fake tanks in PUGs. It's a thing in that game because the builds are open and there is no simple way for the group finder to validate roles. It IS a trinity game but the role selection when you queue is done on the honor system.
The system gets routinely gamed by DPSers who want an instant queue pop selecting "tank." Sometimes it works regardless if the random dungeon is an easy one and sometimes it's an annoying mess.
I saw many people post in that thread saying that they are providing a public service because there are not enough real tanks so when they fake it they make the queue faster for everyone. They didn't get laughed out of the thread. They got agrees and insightful reactions instead.
That's who you're playing with in 2020.
In situations where it can work they are essentially correct. If the content doesn't need a real tank to complete it shouldn't require one to begin with. In this case it is essentially a work around for a flawed system. That such can be done in ESO and have a reasonable chance of success validates the agreements and insightful reactions the assertions resulted in.
You might as well be asking "Will we have players like in the 2004 and prior games?"
The games have changed but the players have changed even more.
I was reading a recent thread in the ESO forums about fake tanks in PUGs. It's a thing in that game because the builds are open and there is no simple way for the group finder to validate roles. It IS a trinity game but the role selection when you queue is done on the honor system.
The system gets routinely gamed by DPSers who want an instant queue pop selecting "tank." Sometimes it works regardless if the random dungeon is an easy one and sometimes it's an annoying mess.
I saw many people post in that thread saying that they are providing a public service because there are not enough real tanks so when they fake it they make the queue faster for everyone. They didn't get laughed out of the thread. They got agrees and insightful reactions instead.
That's who you're playing with in 2020.
In situations where it can work they are essentially correct. If the content doesn't need a real tank to complete it shouldn't require one to begin with. In this case it is essentially a work around for a flawed system. That such can be done in ESO and have a reasonable chance of success validates the agreements and insightful reactions the assertions resulted in.
Which misses the whole point about honesty when you're imposing your no tank PUG style on 3 strangers who queued honorably.
Look... I've been at max CP for a long time and I have soloed many of those group dungeons. If I can solo them I can also carry 3 others who can just do nothing but follow me. I have also been in premade groups with no tank and no healer doing even the dungeons I can't solo, but when I queue in the group finder I don't game it and impose my play style on anyone for a "reasonable chance of success" no matter how uber I am because it's both dishonest and inconsiderate.
You're putting mechanics and metagaming ahead of honesty and consideration which is exactly the problem with the modern MMO communities.
PUGs are a social interaction too. Going into one of those lying about who you are, even if you complete the basic game play task, is the actual point here.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
My view is that Ashes of Creation seems to be the last hope. It's not pre 2004 but it at least is aiming to be about MMO side of things instead of just a single player RPG with others.
Devs with thoughts usually dont have the structure to finish the games. Devs with structure usually dont have the thoughts to put out a game like those.
We might find a good game here and there but that "era" or gaming is gone, theres a couple on the horizon but they are quickly slipping into the never going to finish alpha group sadly.
You cannot regain your MMORPG virginity. Our first was always something special.
They're just two different things.
there is a difference between wanting to go back to one's "hey day" and get the same feelings that you felt way back when and wanting different features.
And my thought is that "wanting to go back" is never healthy, whether it's one's video game history or the history of their life.
But some people don't want a big f'ing glowy thing on the map so they know where to go. Or complete hand holding through every single thing so that it's just follow the bouncing ball.
That's all boring to some. It's dull. but that doesn't mean there isn't another type of merit in those games and a merit that some find appealing.
Some people want the sense of discovery that a game can have. And some want to play "a game" with very clear objectives, very clear places to go, very clear everything.
Gonna be honest, I like when Quest givers have Icons over their heads, I mean, sure talking to random NPC's, was kinda fun when I was first playing an MMO, and that exploration was cute and new, but, now, Nahh, look just get to the meat and potatoes, tell me who I gotta talk to, or who has some quest for me, and lets get that going on.
Now, in a game like BDO where everyone had a whole thing where all the NPC's you could play some side game with you, that was a whole new direction.
Not sure if I liked it, but kudos for being something new to me.
Personally, I kinda like how GW2 had it set up where you had POI (Points of Interest), and you had waypoints, and you things like that, but completing those on the map, while gave you "map completion" there were other unmarked areas to discover as well, which was a nice touch. DDO also had POI's, Rare Spawns, and the like as well, just not mapped out for you.
Same basic exploration systems for both games, however, one pointed it out for you in game, and the other didn't, and I have to admit, I kinda liked the pointed it out, as in reality, without that, I just looked up the spoilers online.
I would say, I am less inclined to play games that are on rails to be honest.
But I like games that don't make me alt-tab, or second screen up the guides for basic things like, who to talk to for a quest.
I suppose each their own on that one.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
My view is that Ashes of Creation seems to be the last hope. It's not pre 2004 but it at least is aiming to be about MMO side of things instead of just a single player RPG with others.
Apparently its going to be the best of all things for all people.
My view is that Ashes of Creation seems to be the last hope. It's not pre 2004 but it at least is aiming to be about MMO side of things instead of just a single player RPG with others.
Apparently its going to be the best of all things for all people.
Hrmm, usually said approach turns out a game which I most likely will not enjoy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I see some share the same feeling I have about the old games,it was more about the community and people you met than the game.
Then saying most wouldn't want to return to those old days but I disagree,maybe the NEW gamer with a entirely different mindset on what ONLINE games mean wouldn't want the old school. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way communities were back 15 years ago but yes there were many flaws in game design but imo it is worse now because now I don't even want to play a single mmorpg.
The modern gamer doesn't even want a mmo or a role playing experience,they want guidance on rails and loot and to be frank,i am glad i don't share that mentality on gaming.
To me it seems real simple,games are virtual ,pixels and colors so imo we SHOULD aim more towards the real people thing>>>>community and friendships and even just helping each other in game isntead of pvp each other.
I feel like it is more about the type of person you are,a hyper young kid will be all over he pvp,MUST WIN,i must be the best type of mentality where as the more relaxed person will simply enjoy hanging out with others with no care to showoff or be rated #1 etc etc.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
My view is that Ashes of Creation seems to be the last hope. It's not pre 2004 but it at least is aiming to be about MMO side of things instead of just a single player RPG with others.
Apparently its going to be the best of all things for all people.
Hrmm, usually said approach turns out a game which I most likely will not enjoy.
I have rather eclectic tastes...
Games that try to be everything to everyone, often end up being deep fried half baked potato's.
It's like.. Everyone wanted "Fries with that".. and while it is technically a fry.. Yah.. Nahh.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game) Can't be a MOVW (Massively Online Virtual World). MOVW will require something different to be capable of delivering a realistic experience and it will be costly to create. Where it needs to go is into a different realm of player built and controlled environment where things change over time and be so massive in size it would take years of exploring to see it all.
MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game) Can't be a MOVW (Massively Online Virtual World). MOVW will require something different to be capable of delivering a realistic experience and it will be costly to create. Where it needs to go is into a different realm of player built and controlled environment where things change over time and be so massive in size it would take years of exploring to see it all.
Elite Dangerous would kinda qualify... an entire galaxy to explore, 1:1 scaled, with millions of planets you can land on and explore. New things are discovered almost every day in that game.
I haven't looked at any games for some time. It sounds interesting though. I'm not really into the space games that much.
Some of the PS4 games, like the interactive ones, such as Horizon: zero dawn, Detroit: Make human, for example are very intriguing with a number of outcomes and a sort of emotional progression. I find these type of games more into my liking.
As for MMORPG large scale open worlds like Horizon would be very costly to produce and it would probably remove the emotional elements that make it what it is.
I don't miss "old EQ." I miss the players I met in that game. The players I see today just have different interests and goals, along with less time to play.
That's exactly what I miss too: the players, the communities the more personal communication before there was FB or twitter or YT or universal smartphones. When people took time to help each other instead of linking 3 YT videos. We made friends easier in those because we were all learning how to do something new in games that also doubled as our social media before there was widely used social media.
And that is the one thing that isn't coming back.
The great communities created themselves because of who we were at that time not because of mechanic X in game Y. A lot of those early games had pretty janky and frankly obnoxious mechanics but we put up with them and didn't care because we were having a good time with good people.
I think this observation is right on the money. The ability to use voice chat has also aside from the medium you referenced indeed changed the way we interact. Having games that made sure it took ages to fill your mana bar or health bar made it almost obligatory to have interactions that took away the attention from how bloody long we just spent on our asses waiting for things to happen.
I think that the interactions that are occurring now are speedier though and crammed with more things you can share. The fact that lot of it is rubbish is actually the fault of the user. If while you're playing you're also engaged in voice chat with individuals who are interesting and witty you are actually going to be able to play and chat more effectively than we ever did in Everquest. Voice chat is definitely faster and able to deliver more content compared to good old typing. What it lacks currently is superior interaction which is because often the participants are sub par and at times belong to the imbecile category. Unfortunately it is far too easy to come across idiots in voice chat than it was in typing. Typing I think requires a certain vocabulary and it also demonstrates spelling and other skills that while not an indication of intellect does form an impression of the person you are chatting with. Voice chat forgoes all that.
The fact that people do take very lazy options when talking in chat and simply linking videos is an aspect that is a double sided blade. It can be very helpful but it also makes the interaction very impersonal.
I also agree with what was posted by @AIBQuirky about missing the people rather than the specific game. However I would like to point out that the type of game is what gave rise to the players you miss. Would your interaction be the same in a Doom or UT session?
MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game) Can't be a MOVW (Massively Online Virtual World). MOVW will require something different to be capable of delivering a realistic experience and it will be costly to create. Where it needs to go is into a different realm of player built and controlled environment where things change over time and be so massive in size it would take years of exploring to see it all.
Elite Dangerous would kinda qualify... an entire galaxy to explore, 1:1 scaled, with millions of planets you can land on and explore. New things are discovered almost every day in that game.
Meh, can't be that big, only took someone 4 months and 952 jumps to circumvent the entire galaxy.
There's jump freighter pilots in EVE who make more hops than that every month.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Classic servers kind of prove otherwise. People want the experiences they had back in the day, and while some of it might be rose colored glasses, a lot of it isn't. When I played Classic WoW, I experienced some of the stuff I loved and had genuine fun, just running around talking to people, people inviting me to groups to do harder quests, it was fun. If what you said was true, then EQ classic servers wouldn't be around, WoW classic servers would be dead, and Oldschool Runescape wouldn't be more popular than most MMORPG's today.
Sure it's a waste of time, but most hobbies are and were back then too. If I went back to my youth, I would probably do most of the same things I did all over again because I enjoyed them.
My point is, I think people always want the modern toys that go with it. Functioning AH, modern UIs, modern graphics, freedom in class builds to be unique, etc, etc. Its sad some real gems of games like DAoC and EQ1 were never given the upgrades they should have. BLizzard did a great job keeping WoW relevant.
Like any singular, or vast list of features, it matters not about any feature, but how those features are implemented. As we "struggled" with old MMORPGs of yore, we did it with friends and struggled together.
Much like air travel today, you certainly get places faster, but I miss my summer vacations with my family traveling across America in my Dad's camper. I saw almost all of the states from the East Coast to the West Coast. The journey was amazing.
This is how I see video games (RPGs) today. With a few exceptions, most are designed to get you from point A to point B in the quickest time possible with few deviations. Choices are pared back. Everything can be done with a singular character. Sure, they're fun while they last, but replay value has gone out the window.
Don't me wrong, I fully understand why this is: business. Instead of playing a few games for a few years, we now need to play multiple games games for just a bit. "One (Won) and Done" is the business mantra today. This is prevalent in MMOs, too, Play all the content, log off and play something else until the next patch/expansion/DLC arrives.
It's not bad or wrong. It's just not what I want in video games. I'm sure my measly wallet will devastate the industry
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
And I never drank cheap beer. If it didn't taste good I didn't drink it.
I would love to have a more old school game. Not sure why some people think that because they were played in our youth that we wouldn't be interested in them
I currently have been playing Daggerfall because it's good.
I play morrowind because it's good.
I loaded up and was playing prince of persia but now that there is a remake coming out I'll play that as the old game has control issues.
Modern games look great, control great (usually) but they aren't necessarily great.
As for mmorpg's I have Lord of the Rings Online, Ryzom and Everquest on my computer.
I think I'm clear about the type of experience I'm looking for.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Do you use mods with these? I do for Morrowind (graphics, basically), but was curious about Daggerfall. I think I've seen a "Unity version" for Daggerfall
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think modern features are great, and I honestly prefer them, but that doesn't mean that they can't exist with classic games as well. I just think it's dishonest to handwave any idea that players want to play classic games, as there's obviously demand for them, just not as high as modern (other than runescape, that's a weird one)
RUN don't walk, download the unity version. It's so easy to set up and so easy to use.
And it looks and controls amazing.
I use a few mods to make morrowind look better as well.
I generally don't download mods that change game play, just additional dungeons/quests or items/item skins for the elder scrolls games.
But I find the original daggerfall unplayable now that I've played this Unity version.
Have you downloaded it yet? Hmmm? Hmmm? I'll wait ...
And yes I have downloaded a few mods to make daggerfall look better. Incuding one that changes the terrain to actually be "terrain" (as opposed to what you would find in flatland.
https://www.dfworkshop.net/projects/daggerfall-unity/live-builds/
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That was launched, what? A few short months ago, IIRC. Less than a year, I believe. I could be wrong. But in any case, it was not that long ago.
How active are those servers now?
I mean, just to get an idea, I don't think they needed to double their server capacity to relaunch WoW Classic, and I wager there was not millions of returning players there to rekindle their old days.
On top of that, IIRC, it was more a flash in pan kind of deal, like going back to magic mountain as an adult, to recap your youth. It's not the same, it might be fun for a day, a brief interlude to that childhood moment, but, just a sample was enough.
No one planned to relive it, to reinvest the next 10 years into doing it all from start again, like they did they first time, because they know how that story ends.
And even then, no one really wanted to go back to launch, where we had to deal with game breaking bugs.
We wanted some recreation of the best of the past, not the all of it.
Just like the times that make Magic Mountain great, are when you bring your kids there, and see their eyes light up to the magic, albeit, nothing makes you feel older than your children telling that what enthralled you as a child feels old and stale to them.
Now I playing a game is 12 years old, DDO, but a lot has changed in those 12 years, I am not playing the same game it was 12 years ago, and I am not the same player I was 12 years ago. We both have grown and changed over the years. Perhaps for the better, maybe for the worse. It's kinda hard to tell.
Same with games like WoW. The game it is today is not the game it was 16 years ago, just like the players are not the same, even those that have been there since Beta, are the not the same people, they don't play the same ways, and they don't have the same styles as they did in their past.
Many I wager, did in fact try the Classic, to reminisce, but at the end of the day, that is all it ever was going to be to them, just a taste. They never had the intention to stay there.
Which brings us to modern games.
No, you can't go back to some bygone moment, they are not going to try and reinvent Classic WoW, or Classic EQ, those games were made, and that time has passed.
Just like making steam powered cars. They are relics, and while people build and restore them, if they want to be on the roads, they need to meet modern standards, they need to have proper headlights, old whale oil lanterns are not going to work. They need to have seatbelts, and their breaking system needs to be more than a 2x4 pressed against their axle.
there is a difference between wanting to go back to one's "hey day" and get the same feelings that you felt way back when and wanting different features.
And my thought is that "wanting to go back" is never healthy, whether it's one's video game history or the history of their life.
But some people don't want a big f'ing glowy thing on the map so they know where to go. Or complete hand holding through every single thing so that it's just follow the bouncing ball.
That's all boring to some. It's dull. but that doesn't mean there isn't another type of merit in those games and a merit that some find appealing.
Some people want the sense of discovery that a game can have. And some want to play "a game" with very clear objectives, very clear places to go, very clear everything.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In situations where it can work they are essentially correct. If the content doesn't need a real tank to complete it shouldn't require one to begin with. In this case it is essentially a work around for a flawed system. That such can be done in ESO and have a reasonable chance of success validates the agreements and insightful reactions the assertions resulted in.
Look... I've been at max CP for a long time and I have soloed many of those group dungeons. If I can solo them I can also carry 3 others who can just do nothing but follow me. I have also been in premade groups with no tank and no healer doing even the dungeons I can't solo, but when I queue in the group finder I don't game it and impose my play style on anyone for a "reasonable chance of success" no matter how uber I am because it's both dishonest and inconsiderate.
You're putting mechanics and metagaming ahead of honesty and consideration which is exactly the problem with the modern MMO communities.
PUGs are a social interaction too. Going into one of those lying about who you are, even if you complete the basic game play task, is the actual point here.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Devs with structure usually dont have the thoughts to put out a game like those.
We might find a good game here and there but that "era" or gaming is gone, theres a couple on the horizon but they are quickly slipping into the never going to finish alpha group sadly.
Now, in a game like BDO where everyone had a whole thing where all the NPC's you could play some side game with you, that was a whole new direction.
Not sure if I liked it, but kudos for being something new to me.
Personally, I kinda like how GW2 had it set up where you had POI (Points of Interest), and you had waypoints, and you things like that, but completing those on the map, while gave you "map completion" there were other unmarked areas to discover as well, which was a nice touch. DDO also had POI's, Rare Spawns, and the like as well, just not mapped out for you.
Same basic exploration systems for both games, however, one pointed it out for you in game, and the other didn't, and I have to admit, I kinda liked the pointed it out, as in reality, without that, I just looked up the spoilers online.
I would say, I am less inclined to play games that are on rails to be honest.
But I like games that don't make me alt-tab, or second screen up the guides for basic things like, who to talk to for a quest.
I suppose each their own on that one.
Apparently its going to be the best of all things for all people.
I have rather eclectic tastes...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Then saying most wouldn't want to return to those old days but I disagree,maybe the NEW gamer with a entirely different mindset on what ONLINE games mean wouldn't want the old school.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way communities were back 15 years ago but yes there were many flaws in game design but imo it is worse now because now I don't even want to play a single mmorpg.
The modern gamer doesn't even want a mmo or a role playing experience,they want guidance on rails and loot and to be frank,i am glad i don't share that mentality on gaming.
To me it seems real simple,games are virtual ,pixels and colors so imo we SHOULD aim more towards the real people thing>>>>community and friendships and even just helping each other in game isntead of pvp each other.
I feel like it is more about the type of person you are,a hyper young kid will be all over he pvp,MUST WIN,i must be the best type of mentality where as the more relaxed person will simply enjoy hanging out with others with no care to showoff or be rated #1 etc etc.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It's like.. Everyone wanted "Fries with that".. and while it is technically a fry.. Yah.. Nahh.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Some of the PS4 games, like the interactive ones, such as Horizon: zero dawn, Detroit: Make human, for example are very intriguing with a number of outcomes and a sort of emotional progression. I find these type of games more into my liking.
As for MMORPG large scale open worlds like Horizon would be very costly to produce and it would probably remove the emotional elements that make it what it is.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
I think that the interactions that are occurring now are speedier though and crammed with more things you can share. The fact that lot of it is rubbish is actually the fault of the user. If while you're playing you're also engaged in voice chat with individuals who are interesting and witty you are actually going to be able to play and chat more effectively than we ever did in Everquest. Voice chat is definitely faster and able to deliver more content compared to good old typing. What it lacks currently is superior interaction which is because often the participants are sub par and at times belong to the imbecile category. Unfortunately it is far too easy to come across idiots in voice chat than it was in typing. Typing I think requires a certain vocabulary and it also demonstrates spelling and other skills that while not an indication of intellect does form an impression of the person you are chatting with. Voice chat forgoes all that.
The fact that people do take very lazy options when talking in chat and simply linking videos is an aspect that is a double sided blade. It can be very helpful but it also makes the interaction very impersonal.
I also agree with what was posted by @AIBQuirky about missing the people rather than the specific game. However I would like to point out that the type of game is what gave rise to the players you miss. Would your interaction be the same in a Doom or UT session?
There's jump freighter pilots in EVE who make more hops than that every month.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon