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Why do so many people want a pvp game?
Gameloading
Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
I really don't understand some of the people here. people already predict this game is going to fail, and the number one complaint is it doesn't have pvp, because the game focus on pve. my question is, what is so bad about this? I look in the mmorpg list, and about 80% of the mmorpg's there have pvp, and some of them are even fully focused on pvp. what is so bad about ONE game focusing on PvE?
Comments
http://www.thelordoftheringsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126
And when i look at that mmorpg list... there really isnt many games with a good pvp, they are mostly just pve games with pvp added as an afterthought... but LOADS of games with good pve, well at least i have never quit a game because it had a poor pve, have you?
This is of course just my opinion but then again that is what you asked
LotR's PvP forms post
One player's great game is another players derisive snort!
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I'm not really sure about the whole most-mmorpgs-are-PvP thing, I dont think that is really true, but at the same time, there isnt a lack of PvP mmorpgs or anything.
I've never been big on ganking and zerging, so I dont care much for the PvP you see in most mmorpgs. I get my pvp kicks from FPS games, and I have been enjoying the PvP in guildwars a lot lately too. Middle Earth feels like a really poor setting for PvP.
The war between the men of the east and mordor doesnt really even effect the west very much, and if the game isnt going to have mordor in it, then what race are people expecting to be? There isnt a lot of lore outlining the evil races, and the evil races arent intelligent at all. As far as I can see, this outcry for PvP isnt much different than people wanting to play as gandalf, or everyone wanting to be jedis in swg.
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Actualy Horizons had no pvp whatsoever and flopped miserably. EQ2 started with no pvp but added pvp cause it was sucking it up in competition to WoW which had pvp.
No pvp or no pve (ala planetside) pidgeonholes a game and really removes alot of possible content. So having them both present in some form seems to be a model for success.
UO (pvp+pve) EQ (pvp+pve) WoW(pvp+pve)
Failures as far as total subscribership numbers
SB (pvp) Horizons (pve) Planetside (pvp) Lord of the Rings (pve)
I dont think it will be the lack of pvp that ill ultimately kill this game. It will be the lack of content. They are currently from all reports doing a worse job than SOE did with SWG back in its development in regards to handling a linear preordained storyline. They are from what I can tell trying to sell the graphics of the world as content that will last for approsimately 5-20 days depending on the individual. Then the game acutaly has to keep people entertained with actual content and they have been very scant when it comes to explaining the content. Fine they are gonna have quests but are they mission style quests are they raid quests just set in the LotR setting? Nah they have been sidestepping this issue for years.
Seriously WHAT IS THE END GAME? What do you do when you level up and are at max level! This is a question I think this game has totaly avoided all through there development cycle and its going to come back and bit them in the end.
Whether a game has PvP or not is irrelevent to subscription levels. AC2 failed and it had PvE and PvP, so did Earth and Beyond. SWG is PvP/PvE and is all but dead. Horizon's is a nitche game and will never have the population of WoW or many other games for that matter but it is not dead. EVE and GW are PvP focused and are doing very well.
ALL games live or die by content and execusion. If it isn't fun for anyone, no one will play.
My beef with PvP isn't PvP in general but the way PvE is affected by it. The never ending nerf bat swinging to balance the game so all classes are viable in PvP. Every class becomes basically the same. A healer or support class should not be able to beat any warrior class by defenition. Add to that the ganking, spamming leet speaking morons that make up a significant portion of avid PvPer's (From my experience) and I could do without PvP entirely and be happy. I would rather have a small game that maintains its focus on one area and does it well than a large game that tries to be everthing to everyone.
If LotRO HAS to have PvP, then it needs to be something like sparring or training done in a guild hall or playable evil races. To me, this is the only way to stay within the lore. For those that don't care about the lore, there are dozens if not hundreds of other game they can choose from. If I wanted to play WoW, I would. I want to explore the lands and lore that Mr. Tolkien imagined. If anything they want to put in the game does not follow the lore, it should be left out no matter how much we may think it will add to the game. If that feature is so important, I know we can find it elsewhere.
End game? Well, to me "End game" means that for me the game has ended. Either I can make my own game content with the tools the devs give me or I can re-roll or I can move on. According to Turbine it will be 2 to 3 years before we even get to the Black Gates. How many of us play a game more that two or three years anyway? The only "End Game" is when you have decided the game has ended or the devs don't give us the tools to work with, in which case, the game wasn't that good to start with.
Just my opinion. It and $10 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks....maybe.
Alot of people not into PvP generally look out there and say wow there are a ton of games that are PvP why do they want this game to have pvp too. The truth is that is a myth. Take SWG for example they removed TEFing (or Temporary Enemy Flaging) years ago. What does that mean. In a "pvp game" a rebel player can stand next to an imperial player and proceed to mow down every npc in site and the imperial player cant do anything about the rebel player but make funny hand gestures at him. EQ2 has very strictly controled pvp. Never confuse a game for having pvp if the developers have a /duel function of some sort. This is not pvp.
What most pvp'ers are looking for is the thrill. That means the thrill of hunting or being hunted about knowing you could die while your farming those mobs. In games that overly structure or control the pvp they remove the thrill cause you know you wont be attacked while your doing a quest. That sort of thing. Now do people get a rise out of killing and griefing yes. Its the degenerate population of the pvp crowd. Its just as bad as the pve'ers that macro to farm loot faster so they can sell it, kill steal, etc. Having played in games that were primarily pve as well as actual pvp games there is no decrease in the amount of smack talk amongst players if they cant kill each other in game. In fact the opposite is the truth. I have observed this in SWG (not a pvp game if you dont want it to be), UO (after the trammel/felucia split), EQ blue servers, and so fourth.
The reality is this as far as "pvp games" goes. Right now you have DAoC and Shadowbane. Both are on there last legs but for different reasons. Upcoming you have WAR and Darkfall. Anything beyond that really isnt going to be considered a pvp game by pvp'ers. LotR or MEO did start out along time ago as a sand box pvp oriented game. That is why people are pretty dissappointed with the direction Turbine has taken the game.
P.S. I quoted and replied to you not to flame or point out inaccuracies cause you had no innacuracies. Just to show you the view of the world from the other side of the looking glass. Which is better pve or pvp is a perspective thing. So there is the pespective of a PvP'er who got excited when he read all the features of MEO and is now very disappointed with LotR.
You bring up several good points. I too experienced the KSing and mob camping and even ninja looting in EQ and to a smaller extent SWG. You are very correct in the error SOE made in eliminating TEF. I alos feel that they were wrong in removing the BH/Jedi PvP system. While I was neither, it fit the time line canon and atmosphere. If MEO had continued and you could play "good" races of "evil" races, then I would expect a very PvP centric game. Since Turbine has changed direction and you can only play the free peoples then PvP in a the real PvP sense doesn't fit. An elf in Middle Earth would not waste time and energy ernestly trying to hurt or kill another elf.
I think SWG was able to pull both off at in its early stages (pre-publish 9) because it was a sandbox and it you could play both sides or even be neutral. As long as the players didn't disolve into a smack-talk-fest the PvP was very appropriate if not intregal. I expected to see rebs and imps go at it.
We are really arguing the same point but from two different points of view. None of us are getting what we were expecting. MEO was going to be a PvPer's game. LotRO was going to be a PvEer's game. I guess now we are both taking a compromise and getting a game that will attempt both. A diluted PvE with a diluted PvP.
I know these games change over time. A curve here and a bend there are one thing. Ninety to one hundred-eighty degree turns are very disturbing. It leads me to believe that the developers are developing by the seat of their pants. Kind of a FOTM developement system where they listen to one group one week and another the next, or better known as the SWG developement system. LOL!
IF they can make it lore appropriate, it doesn't cause the nerf bat to make every class identical and the players can maintain a level of maturity that matches the RP setting of this MMO-RPG (Ya' know, that sounds weird now that I read it. We are playing a game and I want maturity?) I can live with PvP. Although I don't know if it will be a form of PvP that PvPer's will want I hope it ends up being a game both of us can enjoy.
P.S. It is so nice to have a discussion with someone with a differring opinion that doesn't desolve into a flame fest. /deepbow Kudos and thanks Azash_AT
I think adding PvP to a PvP game is the path to the games destruction myself. Well look at WoW and EQ2 is already losing the ground they gained from the revamp. FFXI added "PvP" but it didn't affect anything because it is so minor it is a non issue entirely. It has such little effect that no one takes it seriously, which is ironic since that means people do it just for fun. If LOTR has anything that affects the game more than ballista does in FFXI I think it will be a far greater negative than if it was never there at all.
Now why are people asking for a real PvP game? Simple, there hasn't been one released in a long time, only PvE games with PvP added as an afterthought.
I was hanging around MEO too but I don't remember them ever really describing how the PVP was going to work. I do remember that there were no evil races, only professions. If you started as an Elf, you could grow your start up class into (the example for Elves) a "Scout" or an "Avenger". I remember the primary difference being on how you chose to fight Mordor, though. The idea was that the "Evil" profession path was more a Boromir type decision, using evil weapons to fight evil. The "good" path was supposed to be the "Destroy the Ring" camp.
There definitely were not evil races, at least not in how they described it on the website. You had the same racial options as LOTRO does.
And TBH, the way I remember it was that the Devs said a lot of stuff about features they wanted, but they didn't really produce much output on the site. Such as the Elven barter system... Basically one of the four races would be currency-less. Its an interesting idea but I haven't the foggiest idea how they were actually going to implement it.
I also found the early WG system to be a great PvP style. If you wanted to PvP ya could. If you chose not to it was also very easy totay out of that whole arena. In the end though it ended up just being massive rogue hunting partie that went from station to station looking for single people with tefs to attack as they exited a shuttle or came out of a star port.
The battle fields that they had at the beginning I thought were a GREAT idea that they ended up taking out and never really replaced. They just became huge areas of the map that were glowing beacons of the beginning failures of SWG. Again they could have done so much with thee areas but in the end they jut let them fade into nothing.
The only thing that I did not like about the SWG system was the TEF you got for doing missions against the opposing faction. When you were just starting out trying to build up some faction and develop your character and got a TEF it was a death sentance to go into any town. Some random that jut apparently lived to find these people would swoop in and kill you in no time flat while screaming "PWNED" (Never was sure what this was truely supposed to convey other than the person probably had no power in their own real life and had to assert themselves in a game instead to feel good about themselves).
The faction play in SWG was great though. It had whole missions built around it like taking down a base. It required planning, teamwork and some intelligence work by someone to know when the base was vuln. Then of course SOE came in and slowly started detroying the game. I have yet to find a good replacementgame for SWG. I tried Wow and played that for a time, City of Villlians for about a week, moving on to DDO now. I have really enjoyed DDO, but the level cap was just set way to low for even average players. You cap, beat the toughest mission and there is nothing except to start a new character and do it all again.
I really do have hopes for this one as it appears as though they will bring a larger solo content than DDO and hopefully the same great graphics.
They generally can't afford it as their mothers do not allow them the monthly fee. If they are lucky they might get the game and a game card for their birthday though!
I myself am sick of PvP. To many games have it and when I use it, i can't see why its so great. Just my opinion.
I myself am sick of PvP. To many games have it and when I use it, i can't see why its so great. Just my opinion.
I haven't played a game since SB that was PvP too me... not sure why ppl say too many games have pvp.. WoW kind of PvP is not pvp.. Pvp is losing somthing when you lose.. a town, your money, your clothes.. somthing.. not just spawn back at a camp with everything... That is pvp, even City of villains is not pvp.. you dont lose anything from losing in there either..
Dude, PvP means player vs player...
Dude, PvP means player vs player...
Uhh yeah, Pvp means player vs player, wow i never knew... /sarcasm off ...but true pvp is having somthing too lose.. anything.. be it items, money or land... just having PvP with no true winner is not true pvp too me...
You have WoW Pvp, which is just a sick joke.. or UO or SB pvp where you can loose your house and have your town burnt too the ground and all your money and items taken from you.. now thats pvp
Thats PvP with rewards just because you think it needs it doesnt mean that IS it.
Saying the game will fail w/out PvP is disingenuous at best. FFXI did just fine for a long time w/out any PvP. EQ did just fine w/out it. So saying a game will fail w/out it is laughable. Then add the fact that this game could appeal to many people not already in the MMO world adds no credibility to the all players want real PvP with consequences.
I would think that the MMO world would enjoy entertaining games to draw in more people into the MMO world. More players means more massive multiplayer. Chasing away people before they get their feet wet and interested in something more is not always the answer.
PvE is a grind and always will and feel like it. Its fun for a small portion if ur grouped with some friends but the majoity of PVP fans only pve to get to the pvp since its always endgame.
the problem with LOTRO like i said in my other post is players want a story driven pve experience but they dont realize the story has already been told, and has key events with a climax. What do u expect to get out of pve, u cant raid places from the books it would be against the lore to put sauron or the nazgul or even that spider on a reup timer... the quests will be bland they may create an illusion like quests u do put fourth an effort to assist the fellowship but thats false thats turbine trying to make content.
bottom line is you can roleplay, and explore the world with a PvP enviriment but pvp offers more options and is casual friendly, u can pvp from 20 minutes to 2 hours but usually PvE raids are 3+ hours and have way more downtime and you have to put raiding on ur weekly schedule ect ect.... i dont feel like typing another well thought out post so excuse me for being ghetto. FInally the most important thing about PvP is it adds a never edning - END GAME content, which evolves around skill and roaming the world. it has roleplaying in it, raiding too like raiidng evil outposts ect... its flat out funner imo. it gives u something to work for u want to get good gear for the edge. which is why PvE and PVP are both equally important in an MMO. i want both. people who dont want to get ganked or hate pvp dont have to participate
I seriously doubt that Tolkiens world was all about PvP. Tolkiens book was about good vs. evil. Where in the list of races that we can play is all the evil races? If this game was intended for a PvP based system, you'd think they would have set it up so we could be all races in the books. Of course if they did that, they'd have to invent a huge amount of storylines not in the books due to the evil characters needing some sort of intimate history as well. Then they end up really entering a grey area w/ artistic license.
While your desire for pvp is understandable, I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.
6 million subscriptions says it all..
One of the main reasons for World of Warcrafts huge success in the MMO industry is the ability to PVP. Heck its not even great pvp and certainly not all that balanced but it is what the people want. Any MMO that comes out in the future regardless of the popularity of its IP must incorporate PVP if it wants to attract the kind of numbers that WOW has generated. Blizzard is the model for success in the MMO market period.
If this game is going to succeed it will require PVP to do it. Whether it be by having seperate servers or incorporating battlegrounds they will eventually be forced to implement it in some form or another. Gamers are no longer content to compete against computer generated mobs. There is no challenge and no satisfaction. This is why online gaming is so popular now. The huge success of xbox live is proof that gamers are competitive and are drawn to games that allow them to do so.
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