Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Subscriptions involve operant conditioning. No less insidious. Loot crates/blind-box/gacha share some similarities but also some stark differences with subs.
I'm playing Fallout 76, the subscription is blatantly P2W as you would call it. The cash shop not really at all except for a couple items to scrap or repair gear which have very limited use. But P2W is about quality of game play not really predatory monetization, although it can be an incentive for the latter in my opinion.
Subscriptions in a F2P game are not subscriptions, those are access to P2W and always have been. Subscription ONLY online games are nowhere near as disgusting.
Sorry, let me clarify. Subscriptions in F2P PvP online games are nothing more than gated access to P2W mechanics. I guess you could refer to the F2P portion as a trial access too. That makes it seem less disgusting.
How many "subscription only"games has there ever really been? As I recall back in "the good ole days" we had to pay for the initial box price, a monthly sub and still more for expansions at least once or more a year.
Some like EVE eventually dropped requiring paying for the initial box purchase and expansion packs as well making it one of the more sub models IMO, but some to this date such as WOW still follow the traditional model.
Fallout 76's sub is predatory for sure as IMO the game can't really be enjoyed without gameplay convenience the scrapbox alone provides, though the tent is also high up on the list of nice to have.
Still for me a sub is a sub for any game which offers them. All give you access to game content, be it a little more like in FO 76 or a lot more as in EVE, or the entire game as with WOW.
Back to @Torval 's point, all are forms of operant conditioning designed to keep customers playing and paying, which when you think about it is what most any business tries to do, keep customers coming back.
I mean, look at the supermarket, most of what they sell you has a short shelf life, isn't necessarily good for you, is almost a requirement that you shop there (or another like it) in order to sustain life in a reasonable fashion and can be very expensive therefore are about as predatory as a business can be, yet most of us have accepted buying from them with few real complaints.
Gamings a lot like them, a "necessary evil" which we put up with to enjoy life.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Publishing loot box rates is not an answer to casino gambling, loot boxes and all casino gambling need to be removed form gaming. The authors suggest hard caps, limiting players total spend, obviously I think they have no place in a game.
I am not sure Nick has really understood the ramifications of the study which does not show "the real-world effects for the average person should be minimal" or that "but for the typical gamer this isn’t particularly harmful." There is a spectrum of likelihood to gaining a gambling addiction we are not immune or susceptible. The average gamer now starts gambling in games as a preteen or before, gambling when you are young is recognised as making you more likely to develop a gambling addiction.
Nick tells us he was a child when he started playing games, I don't think he grasps how different it is for children now, gambling with loot boxes is a different world.
Nick notes that "Data pulled from Australia, New Zealand, and the United States, suggested that (on average) problem gamblers spent approximately $13 (1300%) more a month on loot boxes than non-problem gamblers." Does that not indicate how addictive loot boxes are to you? In fact that rises "to approximately $21 USD per month when outliers were included in the analyses." Those with a gambling addiction are very prone to overusing loot boxes, because this is gambling pure and simple. This needs to be kept out of gaming.
Just read the study where the authors say the likes of:
"The relationships between loot box spending behavior, problem gambling symptomology and risky loot box engagement were all of a size generally interpreted as practically significant."
"We call on all games companies to seriously consider implementing harm minimization techniques such as limit setting to attenuate the potential financial harm that high-risk users may experience from loot box mechanisms."
"People with greater problem gambling symptomology spend more on loot boxes than those without such symptoms, and those who engage in excessive gameplay and have problem gambling symptoms are at an even greater risk for high expenditure on loot box systems."
While they say that the difference in negative feelings is mild, that's the difference between those known to have a gambling disorder and those not known to have one. That's not to say the negative effects are mild, just the difference between these two groups is not marked.
Sorry for the wall of text but I think this is the most important issue in gaming today, gambling does not belong in gaming.
Games that are built around chance mechanics already exist out there.
What I cannot come to terms with is why we have to have these mechanics in MMORPGs. There are so many things about MMORPGs that are fun and can be developed but adding loot boxes and gacha into MMORPGs take away so much and eclipse the really fun bits by adding these elements.
Games that are built around chance mechanics already exist out there.
What I cannot come to terms with is why we have to have these mechanics in MMORPGs. There are so many things about MMORPGs that are fun and can be developed but adding loot boxes and gacha into MMORPGs take away so much and eclipse the really fun bits by adding these elements.
It is paying for the chance mechanic that makes for casino game play. In BDO you can in a round about way pay for a chance to improve your gear. That is still gambling, it does not have to have loot box written on the tin.
What you a touching on here is the replacement of gameplay by gambling play, but you can find this in shooters, any game. It is more marked in something like a MMORPG where there are many activities being subsumed by gambling. A concern there is unless gambling can be introduced to housing or whatever will gaming companies continue to think that element is worth keeping? There is a natural push to only gameplay that involves gambling.
Well, a few minor points that I am going to pull out of my butt.
Subscription:
While it is true that paying a subscription will get players to play the game more to get their dollars worth, because there is a demand that the players pay every single month to keep playing the game, if at any time the developer does something that the player does not like, they are far more willing to cancel their sub and quit the game, and while rage quitting is nothing new, Subs functions as a paywall against returning to the game.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You are paying a fixed amount for a service, and you know exactly what you will get for your dollars spent.
Battle Pass:
Ok, now, this one is a system I love all things said and done, it's like the step between the B2P and F2P game model, where I can get a free limited trial to see if I like it, and if I do, then I can opt to buy the game to get the full version and progress, as well as additional stuff in the process.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You are buying a product, like a box fee, and you know exactly what you will get for your dollars spent.
Flash Sales:
Ok, this is another one that is kinda cool, because in some games, if you were playing anyway, and enjoying it, waiting for sales to get the most bang for your buck is often a mini-game in and of itself.
Sure, some people might buy something just because it is on sale, but they had to be enjoying the game in the first place to even consider that, so they were going to spend money anyway, the question is simply them feeling like they got the most for it.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You are buying a direct item from the vendor, and you know exactly what you will get for your dollars spent.
Daily Quests:
Gonna be honest, if you were not having fun anyway, and enjoying the game, this is a non-issue. This does little more than give players some minor direction, and something to when they log in and play, it does not get them to log in and play.
Sure, some players might claim this, but the end result is, they are still enjoying the game enough to care about their progress in it, for them to show up and do the daily quests, if they were not having fun, and not enjoying the game, they would cease to care if they were making progress in it or not, and this trick would not keep them playing.
Ultimately this just gets the people who enjoy the game, to log in daily just to get some token reward.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You log in and they give you something, and you know exactly what you will get for your time spent.
Energy:
This is just a douche move.
But, at least you know what you ill get for money if you buy energy even if this is shandy af feature to toss on people.
Loot Boxes:
This is gambling, pure and simple, as shaday ass gambling at that, screw those people for doing it.
This is a totally dishonest transaction as you have no idea what you will get for your dollar spent.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Not surprisingly, none of the ideas to hook a customer involve making an amazing game with deep, meaningful player interactions, tons of content, quality service and new, fresh ideas. Most of the ideas listed seem to have been written my an accountant; the focus on the bottom line to the exclusion of everything else is unmistakable.
To be honest, the only way any of these tricks work, is if the customer is having fun and wants to be playing that game.
In shot they need to like the product to be willing to spend money on it.
Like anything really. I mean, if you go to a Tourist Destination, there are all kinds of money traps, but, ideally, you first need to be having fun there to spend the money, otherwise, what do you do? That's right.. get in the car and leave.
Same with MMO's.
It first needs to be a good enough game that the players want to play it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The problem with publishing the odds of loot crates is that it's information publishers do NOT want known. First they will bury it someplace to make it hard to find. Second, there's no guarantee that the information will be accurate. Businesses will lie to get your money. Recently Y2K's NBA game said a rare card would be available after a certain time then didn't release the card until 23 minutes after the promised release time, defrauding who knows how many players bought card packs for that rare card when there was 0% chance of it happening. I know 23 minutes doesn't sound like much, but look at how fast online concert tickets or pre-order items get purchased. There's always a rush.
It's why I don't play AAA games now. They've become more about selling after the initial sale. The game itself has become a vehicle to get you to spend more.
I've bought a sub and then stopped playing but didn't cancel for a couple months. It's easy to lose track of those too and forget to cancel.
I made a thread a while back about the auto-renew subscription norm being scummy, not just in games but everywhere, and got "lectured" about personal responsibility lol.
You've done it. I've done it. I bet most people have. The amount of BS "I'm responsible with my money but you're not" posing in that thread was absurd.
There are very few games or services that offer a simple "do not auto-renew option" for the sub which would be extremely simple to do. In almost all cases you have to find your way through non-intuitive sub-menus to do it.
Someone mentioned gym memberships and they are the absolute worse. Most will not let you cancel over the phone or online. You need to go there in person and sign several forms.
There's big money in collecting money for a sub from people who don't use your service.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem with publishing the odds of loot crates is that it's information publishers do NOT want known. First they will bury it someplace to make it hard to find. Second, there's no guarantee that the information will be accurate. Businesses will lie to get your money. Recently Y2K's NBA game said a rare card would be available after a certain time then didn't release the card until 23 minutes after the promised release time, defrauding who knows how many players bought card packs for that rare card when there was 0% chance of it happening. I know 23 minutes doesn't sound like much, but look at how fast online concert tickets or pre-order items get purchased. There's always a rush.
It's why I don't play AAA games now. They've become more about selling after the initial sale. The game itself has become a vehicle to get you to spend more.
Rates will be the first fall back when governments require them to do something, if that does not work they will suggest a cap on the number of loot boxes sold to a player say per month. They will be quite happy with that as long as it is not decided this is gambling and should not be in gaming at all.
This idea that subscription only games and loot boxes are alike because they keep you playing is marketing talk which tries to make players think loot boxes are fine. The fact we have people falling for this is worrying.
I've bought a sub and then stopped playing but didn't cancel for a couple months. It's easy to lose track of those too and forget to cancel.
I made a thread a while back about the auto-renew subscription norm being scummy, not just in games but everywhere, and got "lectured" about personal responsibility lol.
You've done it. I've done it. I bet most people have. The amount of BS "I'm responsible with my money but you're not" posing in that thread was absurd.
There are very few games or services that offer a simple "do not auto-renew option" for the sub which would be extremely simple to do. In almost all cases you have to find your way through non-intuitive sub-menus to do it.
Someone mentioned gym memberships and they are the absolute worse. Most will not let you cancel over the phone or online. You need to go there in person and sign several forms.
There's big money in collecting money for a sub from people who don't use your service.
Even companies like Microsoft do this. Yep, a couple years back there was an annual recurring charge against my card for a purchase of Windows 7. You'd be surprised how quickly a bank can issue a new card when properly motivated.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What about strategies that we gamers like... content updates and new playable characters!
That falls under Flash Sales.
Because the only thing gamers like more that more stuff, is getting it at discount or for free.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What about strategies that we gamers like... content updates and new playable characters!
That falls under Flash Sales.
Because the only thing gamers like more that more stuff, is getting it at discount or for free.
That's true. But then that's pretty much true for all purchases, not just games. "Black Friday", flash sales, digital coupons, Buy 2 get 1 free, and a lot of the other stuff @Kyleran mentioned in an earlier post. The difference with digital is that it's a lot easier to misrepresent and manipulate the delivered product or rewards than physical merchandise.
Eh .. shop on Wish.. it will change your view of that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The sunk cost fallacy isn't really a fallacy since very few people are going to subscribe then just not play the game at all.
But what if your favorite part of the game is paying the subscription but not playing the game?
People do this with gym memberships too.
Source: Me, a guy who paid $20 a month for 6 months and went 3 times before finally canceling.
Have you every started a subscription for a game and just played three times in six months though?
I also think I paid for a WoW sub for a year after Legion launched, but maybe played it for two weeks? I didn't start playing it regularly again till BfA when I did IGN's review, and even then I went months after finishing it without playing before picking it back up again.
Ok, I just keep an eye on my finances more then, I did not think for a second your answer could be yes.
Yeaaaa.....I'm awful at remembering subs, to be honest. Thankfully, this thread helped curb that for this month.
- PS Online - MS Gamepass - Several Apple subs when One became available
I never lose track of them though for more then a month
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Not just thinking of Lahnmir here but you guys need to get a grip on what you are spending. I am not saying don't spend, just know where you are spending. Most importantly don't admit this to your wife, when it comes to gaming you know where every penny goes.
The problem is that too many people use autopay and don't realize just how much they are spending on luxury monthly subs. I have met several gamers that didn't even realize they had been paying for WoW for a couple of years.
The sunk cost fallacy isn't really a fallacy since very few people are going to subscribe then just not play the game at all.
But what if your favorite part of the game is paying the subscription but not playing the game?
People do this with gym memberships too.
Source: Me, a guy who paid $20 a month for 6 months and went 3 times before finally canceling.
Have you every started a subscription for a game and just played three times in six months though?
I also think I paid for a WoW sub for a year after Legion launched, but maybe played it for two weeks? I didn't start playing it regularly again till BfA when I did IGN's review, and even then I went months after finishing it without playing before picking it back up again.
Ok, I just keep an eye on my finances more then, I did not think for a second your answer could be yes.
Yeaaaa.....I'm awful at remembering subs, to be honest. Thankfully, this thread helped curb that for this month.
- PS Online - MS Gamepass - Several Apple subs when One became available
I never lose track of them though for more then a month
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Not just thinking of Lahnmir here but you guys need to get a grip on what you are spending. I am not saying don't spend, just know where you are spending. Most importantly don't admit this to your wife, when it comes to gaming you know where every penny goes.
I’ve got a fair bit of disposable income and am running a, financial, tight ship. Most of these subs benefit the rest of the family too. As for the wife, she just bought a new pair of joycons for my Switch since she stole it to play Animal Crossing and we got a Switch light for my eldest daughter her birthday last week. She thinks gaming is pretty expensive but also enjoys it a great deal. Guess I am lucky
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I used to play long hours every day between the years 2001 and 2010, when I found MMORPG's to be more engaging.
Nothing on that list kept me engaged. It was the variety of ways I could build my character, the length of time it took to build that character, the group up and camp nature of those games were great, and the replayability of older MMORPG's were better.
But modern games have made the characters you can build homogenized; you can get to max level in days now, instead of months/years; the community has changed, people prefer to solo quest and que up for group content; and your funneled through every corner of the world by quests, so replayability is minimal.
That's why most months I'm never subscribed to a MMORPG. When I do, it's usually to check out a new expansion for what it has to offer, then back to unsubscribing. MMORPG's who replaces engaging content with daily quests, such as WoW, has lost my subscriptions even faster. I don't know why these gaming companies think that their audience don't have any self respect for their free time. I'm not going to spend time set aside for my hobby doing world quests to grind an arbitrary bar, for pixelated rewards.
A company has to invest more into their games, and not make them so shallow. The characters you can build should not be able to do the same things, but with different spell effects. You should have multiple paths to max level for replayability. With just these two things alone, end game dungeons and raids can remain relevant long after you beat them due to having to learn new methods, with your new class to overcome the challenges. Lastly, better moderate your communities. People haven't always acted like they do now. They've learned to act this way and the lack of moderation has emboldened the poor behavior.
Players when it comes down to it are free content that a developers does not have to produce. Even is that player does not spend a dime on the game odds are they are friends with or active with others that do. So it natural for them to try every gimmick in the book to try and keep as many players that they can. Some will even go as far as rewarding you for staying logged on when your afk. Because it reduces the odds that your playing another game instead.
You really can lump sub based games and f2p together on this topic. Sub based games are designed to give you the very best experience they can offer. While most f2p models design their games so your required to pay to enjoy the games. Under the disguise of paying for convenience.
This why most sub based games fail unless they have decades worth of content. And why others do rather well once they add some sort of free to play system. The hard part is balancing the f2p and paying experience in a game.
As for the encouraging the young how to gamble. Well I guess you can say video games encourage children to murder and steal as well.
Players when it comes down to it are free content that a developers does not have to produce. Even is that player does not spend a dime on the game odds are they are friends with or active with others that do. So it natural for them to try every gimmick in the book to try and keep as many players that they can. Some will even go as far as rewarding you for staying logged on when your afk. Because it reduces the odds that your playing another game instead.
You really can lump sub based games and f2p together on this topic. Sub based games are designed to give you the very best experience they can offer. While most f2p models design their games so your required to pay to enjoy the games. Under the disguise of paying for convenience.
This why most sub based games fail unless they have decades worth of content. And why others do rather well once they add some sort of free to play system. The hard part is balancing the f2p and paying experience in a game.
As for the encouraging the young how to gamble. Well I guess you can say video games encourage children to murder and steal as well.
Just a few minor points.
1) It's not profitable to keep players, just to keep numbers up, this is a misnomer that many people cling to, especially with the rise of F2P games, that somehow, even if they don't spend money, they are beneficial for the game. This not true.
You are only a benefit to the game, if you are:
A) Actively Spending money on the game.
This is a no-brainer, the people that continually spend money on the game, regardless of how they spend that money, if it's a sub, cash shop, whatever, are the people that keep the game alive, no, if's/and's or but's about it. These people are literally the ONLY group or players that is keeping the lights on and the servers going.
No one else.
B ) Making the Game Enjoyable for Group A.
Simply put, if you are the one that is out there doing things to make the game more fun for the people that are paying into it, be it, leading events, making guides, making a guild where they feel welcomed, or just making them feel welcomed, you add value to the game even if you are not directly spending money on it. Unless you are building a positive play place for the other people that are paying money to support the game, you are dead weight.
It's that simple, if you log in with a toxic attitude, or just keep to yourself and don't help anyone, or don't work with people to make their time enjoyable, then you serve zero purpose to the population of the game, and not only are you a freeloader, you are a dead weight to the population as a whole.
MMO dev's play a game where they try to keep the productive and positive players regardless if they pay or not, and try to get rid of all the non-productive non-paying players that toxify their game, either by getting them to spend money, or getting them to get out.
It's just that simple.
2) Sub based MMO's were about keeping you logged in, and dragging out the time it took to achieve things, this was brought about things like Raid Timers, where a raid boss would only spawn once a week, thus the top players would keep their sub active in hope to be able to get the raid boss and get that little bit of loot that might drop. This quickly translated over to F2P games, and they put in the same Raid Boss timers, but in a stroke of brilliance said "hey.. spend some money and bypass that timer!"
Now, in both these games, this had nothing to do with giving you a grand experience, as IMHO, and my Personal Experience, Sub based games and F2P games have given me the same quality of world to play in, same level of character building, and the like, there was nothing missing on the mechanical aspect of the games between F2P and Sub.
The only intrinsic difference between Sub based games and F2P games, is the F2P game often gives you a means to bypass the grind by spending money, the Sub based game expects you to spend money to continue to grind.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Note I did not say control, she definitely can spend uncontrollably as has been shown over the many years.
It was a great incentive for me to continually advance my career to try and keep ahead of it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some like EVE eventually dropped requiring paying for the initial box purchase and expansion packs as well making it one of the more sub models IMO, but some to this date such as WOW still follow the traditional model.
Fallout 76's sub is predatory for sure as IMO the game can't really be enjoyed without gameplay convenience the scrapbox alone provides, though the tent is also high up on the list of nice to have.
Still for me a sub is a sub for any game which offers them. All give you access to game content, be it a little more like in FO 76 or a lot more as in EVE, or the entire game as with WOW.
Back to @Torval 's point, all are forms of operant conditioning designed to keep customers playing and paying, which when you think about it is what most any business tries to do, keep customers coming back.
I mean, look at the supermarket, most of what they sell you has a short shelf life, isn't necessarily good for you, is almost a requirement that you shop there (or another like it) in order to sustain life in a reasonable fashion and can be very expensive therefore are about as predatory as a business can be, yet most of us have accepted buying from them with few real complaints.
Gamings a lot like them, a "necessary evil" which we put up with to enjoy life.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What I cannot come to terms with is why we have to have these mechanics in MMORPGs. There are so many things about MMORPGs that are fun and can be developed but adding loot boxes and gacha into MMORPGs take away so much and eclipse the really fun bits by adding these elements.
What you a touching on here is the replacement of gameplay by gambling play, but you can find this in shooters, any game. It is more marked in something like a MMORPG where there are many activities being subsumed by gambling. A concern there is unless gambling can be introduced to housing or whatever will gaming companies continue to think that element is worth keeping? There is a natural push to only gameplay that involves gambling.
Subscription:
While it is true that paying a subscription will get players to play the game more to get their dollars worth, because there is a demand that the players pay every single month to keep playing the game, if at any time the developer does something that the player does not like, they are far more willing to cancel their sub and quit the game, and while rage quitting is nothing new, Subs functions as a paywall against returning to the game.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You are paying a fixed amount for a service, and you know exactly what you will get for your dollars spent.
Battle Pass:
Ok, now, this one is a system I love all things said and done, it's like the step between the B2P and F2P game model, where I can get a free limited trial to see if I like it, and if I do, then I can opt to buy the game to get the full version and progress, as well as additional stuff in the process.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You are buying a product, like a box fee, and you know exactly what you will get for your dollars spent.
Flash Sales:
Ok, this is another one that is kinda cool, because in some games, if you were playing anyway, and enjoying it, waiting for sales to get the most bang for your buck is often a mini-game in and of itself.
Sure, some people might buy something just because it is on sale, but they had to be enjoying the game in the first place to even consider that, so they were going to spend money anyway, the question is simply them feeling like they got the most for it.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You are buying a direct item from the vendor, and you know exactly what you will get for your dollars spent.
Daily Quests:
Gonna be honest, if you were not having fun anyway, and enjoying the game, this is a non-issue. This does little more than give players some minor direction, and something to when they log in and play, it does not get them to log in and play.
Sure, some players might claim this, but the end result is, they are still enjoying the game enough to care about their progress in it, for them to show up and do the daily quests, if they were not having fun, and not enjoying the game, they would cease to care if they were making progress in it or not, and this trick would not keep them playing.
Ultimately this just gets the people who enjoy the game, to log in daily just to get some token reward.
In the end tho, this is a very Honest Transaction. You log in and they give you something, and you know exactly what you will get for your time spent.
Energy:
This is just a douche move.
But, at least you know what you ill get for money if you buy energy even if this is shandy af feature to toss on people.
Loot Boxes:
This is gambling, pure and simple, as shaday ass gambling at that, screw those people for doing it.
This is a totally dishonest transaction as you have no idea what you will get for your dollar spent.
In shot they need to like the product to be willing to spend money on it.
Like anything really. I mean, if you go to a Tourist Destination, there are all kinds of money traps, but, ideally, you first need to be having fun there to spend the money, otherwise, what do you do? That's right.. get in the car and leave.
Same with MMO's.
It first needs to be a good enough game that the players want to play it.
It's why I don't play AAA games now. They've become more about selling after the initial sale. The game itself has become a vehicle to get you to spend more.
You've done it. I've done it. I bet most people have. The amount of BS "I'm responsible with my money but you're not" posing in that thread was absurd.
There are very few games or services that offer a simple "do not auto-renew option" for the sub which would be extremely simple to do. In almost all cases you have to find your way through non-intuitive sub-menus to do it.
Someone mentioned gym memberships and they are the absolute worse. Most will not let you cancel over the phone or online. You need to go there in person and sign several forms.
There's big money in collecting money for a sub from people who don't use your service.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This idea that subscription only games and loot boxes are alike because they keep you playing is marketing talk which tries to make players think loot boxes are fine. The fact we have people falling for this is worrying.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Because the only thing gamers like more that more stuff, is getting it at discount or for free.
The problem is that too many people use autopay and don't realize just how much they are spending on luxury monthly subs. I have met several gamers that didn't even realize they had been paying for WoW for a couple of years.
My problem is, the sub is always a barrier for me to go back to a game. I just dont want to pay the sub.
Oh well, dailies are terrible.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You want your game to be monetized without caps and allow players to spent as much as they want.
Nothing on that list kept me engaged. It was the variety of ways I could build my character, the length of time it took to build that character, the group up and camp nature of those games were great, and the replayability of older MMORPG's were better.
But modern games have made the characters you can build homogenized; you can get to max level in days now, instead of months/years; the community has changed, people prefer to solo quest and que up for group content; and your funneled through every corner of the world by quests, so replayability is minimal.
That's why most months I'm never subscribed to a MMORPG. When I do, it's usually to check out a new expansion for what it has to offer, then back to unsubscribing. MMORPG's who replaces engaging content with daily quests, such as WoW, has lost my subscriptions even faster. I don't know why these gaming companies think that their audience don't have any self respect for their free time. I'm not going to spend time set aside for my hobby doing world quests to grind an arbitrary bar, for pixelated rewards.
A company has to invest more into their games, and not make them so shallow. The characters you can build should not be able to do the same things, but with different spell effects. You should have multiple paths to max level for replayability. With just these two things alone, end game dungeons and raids can remain relevant long after you beat them due to having to learn new methods, with your new class to overcome the challenges. Lastly, better moderate your communities. People haven't always acted like they do now. They've learned to act this way and the lack of moderation has emboldened the poor behavior.
You really can lump sub based games and f2p together on this topic. Sub based games are designed to give you the very best experience they can offer. While most f2p models design their games so your required to pay to enjoy the games. Under the disguise of paying for convenience.
This why most sub based games fail unless they have decades worth of content. And why others do rather well once they add some sort of free to play system. The hard part is balancing the f2p and paying experience in a game.
As for the encouraging the young how to gamble. Well I guess you can say video games encourage children to murder and steal as well.
1) It's not profitable to keep players, just to keep numbers up, this is a misnomer that many people cling to, especially with the rise of F2P games, that somehow, even if they don't spend money, they are beneficial for the game. This not true.
You are only a benefit to the game, if you are:
A) Actively Spending money on the game.
This is a no-brainer, the people that continually spend money on the game, regardless of how they spend that money, if it's a sub, cash shop, whatever, are the people that keep the game alive, no, if's/and's or but's about it. These people are literally the ONLY group or players that is keeping the lights on and the servers going.
No one else.
B ) Making the Game Enjoyable for Group A.
Simply put, if you are the one that is out there doing things to make the game more fun for the people that are paying into it, be it, leading events, making guides, making a guild where they feel welcomed, or just making them feel welcomed, you add value to the game even if you are not directly spending money on it. Unless you are building a positive play place for the other people that are paying money to support the game, you are dead weight.
It's that simple, if you log in with a toxic attitude, or just keep to yourself and don't help anyone, or don't work with people to make their time enjoyable, then you serve zero purpose to the population of the game, and not only are you a freeloader, you are a dead weight to the population as a whole.
MMO dev's play a game where they try to keep the productive and positive players regardless if they pay or not, and try to get rid of all the non-productive non-paying players that toxify their game, either by getting them to spend money, or getting them to get out.
It's just that simple.
2) Sub based MMO's were about keeping you logged in, and dragging out the time it took to achieve things, this was brought about things like Raid Timers, where a raid boss would only spawn once a week, thus the top players would keep their sub active in hope to be able to get the raid boss and get that little bit of loot that might drop. This quickly translated over to F2P games, and they put in the same Raid Boss timers, but in a stroke of brilliance said "hey.. spend some money and bypass that timer!"
Now, in both these games, this had nothing to do with giving you a grand experience, as IMHO, and my Personal Experience, Sub based games and F2P games have given me the same quality of world to play in, same level of character building, and the like, there was nothing missing on the mechanical aspect of the games between F2P and Sub.
The only intrinsic difference between Sub based games and F2P games, is the F2P game often gives you a means to bypass the grind by spending money, the Sub based game expects you to spend money to continue to grind.