Full release or not bet it makes more and has more players than pantheon, sota, or whatever boring ass pve paradise filled with the scariest most risk adverse, whiny, tiny demographic in all of gaming.
The history of this genre says otherwise, especially about the demographics. I would expect to hear *real* whining if I could make your character sit in a tavern and listen to the bards sing, or the discuss local politics of Freetown. You know, impose my RPing preference on an unwilling bystander.
(Note, I never said "listen to me sing", that'd be wrong. 'Cruel and Unusual' is how the courts usually describe it).
I know you jest.
However, some of the best RP guilds I've been a part of select PVP enabled servers or PvP sandbox games. Allows for events with other players/guilds (war, conflict/alliances/events).
Usually some few top talent players in the guild, but mostly mediocre or bad PvP players (vs non RP guilds)... but that's not really the point or goal of the guild.
Man I wish I wasn't too risk adverse to really get into full loot. My favorite mmo experiences involved going in hard on Pvp. Full loot Pvp keeps me from the content in albion and uo. It's kind of a shame. Then again, I'm not exactly in the majority of that player set since I still believe that LOTRO pvp was the best paced and most strategic of any mmo I have played.
Dunno why people complain about a TYPE of game. If they deliver what they say they will deliver that can only be a good thing for the genre. There is nothing wrong with PvP focused games. There is nothing wrong with PvE focused games. I honestly think most games go off the rails when they try to combine the two.
Do you go into a Madden NFL 47 (or whatever they are up to now) forum and complain that football games suck?
That said... this is likely to be something like a Darkfall launch. Had some epic times then... but eventually the people that "lose" quit, and that's not fun for anyone.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why does every single sandbox have to have FFA PVP? It must be physically impossible to make a good sandbox game without PVP. They jsut can't come up with the content.
Why do you guys have to go to every potential PvP game and whine incessantly about how it's not PvE? It makes no sense.
If you don't like PvP games, don't follow and/or play them. Simple. When I see a game aimed at a demographic that isn't me, I just disregard it and look for something else. You can't force every single potential MMO to be exactly what you want it to be.
Dunno why people complain about a TYPE of game. If they deliver what they say they will deliver that can only be a good thing for the genre. There is nothing wrong with PvP focused games. There is nothing wrong with PvE focused games. I honestly think most games go off the rails when they try to combine the two.
Do you go into a Madden NFL 47 (or whatever they are up to now) forum and complain that football games suck?
That said... this is likely to be something like a Darkfall launch. Had some epic times then... but eventually the people that "lose" quit, and that's not fun for anyone.
Madden goes by year, so they are year 2021 so madden 2021.
My whole take with full loot PvP has always been a need to control your risk, if you get ganked the second u walk out of town, that is stupid design. I like the way EVE controls risk with their security system.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Why does every single sandbox have to have FFA PVP? It must be physically impossible to make a good sandbox game without PVP. They jsut can't come up with the content.
Why do you guys have to go to every potential PvP game and whine incessantly about how it's not PvE? It makes no sense.
If you don't like PvP games, don't follow and/or play them. Simple. When I see a game aimed at a demographic that isn't me, I just disregard it and look for something else. You can't force every single potential MMO to be exactly what you want it to be.
While I agree with your basic sentiment, play the games you like, I'd rather see games succeed. In the MMORPG space, that means PvE games; they have a far better chance of long-term success.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Why does every single sandbox have to have FFA PVP? It must be physically impossible to make a good sandbox game without PVP. They jsut can't come up with the content.
Why do you guys have to go to every potential PvP game and whine incessantly about how it's not PvE? It makes no sense.
If you don't like PvP games, don't follow and/or play them. Simple. When I see a game aimed at a demographic that isn't me, I just disregard it and look for something else. You can't force every single potential MMO to be exactly what you want it to be.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......That is why many of us are clamoring for something new PVE sandbox wise where we can go explore and play without being killed constantly by other players.
Why does every single sandbox have to have FFA PVP? It must be physically impossible to make a good sandbox game without PVP. They jsut can't come up with the content.
Why do you guys have to go to every potential PvP game and whine incessantly about how it's not PvE? It makes no sense.
If you don't like PvP games, don't follow and/or play them. Simple. When I see a game aimed at a demographic that isn't me, I just disregard it and look for something else. You can't force every single potential MMO to be exactly what you want it to be.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......That is why many of us are clamoring for something new PVE sandbox wise where we can go explore and play without being killed constantly by other players.
To be fair, GW2, separates the PvP and PvE, so you never need to worry about getting just getting randomly killed, you need to directly go into the PvP game mode.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......
Wurm Online (PVE server), Project Gorgon, One Hour One Life, Naval Action (PVE server), Legends of Aria (PVE shards), E:D (PVE groups). And no you can't rule out ATitD.
Any MMO that has a PvE server, is a PvP MMO's that just opted to cut it's balls off for more money, and thus not a PvE Game.
Feel free to try and change my mind.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......
Wurm Online (PVE server), Project Gorgon, One Hour One Life, Naval Action (PVE server), Legends of Aria (PVE shards), E:D (PVE groups). And no you can't rule out ATitD.
Any MMO that has a PvE server, is a PvP MMO's that just opted to cut it's balls off for more money, and thus not a PvE Game.
Feel free to try and change my mind.
Excellent point. Yet this is what many times the PVE crowd asks. And this is an argument I used against them.
It depends on the game. And you can tell by the crowd that mainly plays that game. E:D is mostly played PVE. Wurm has both, LoA has neither xD. Naval Action PVE server is like you said, a PVP game with its balls off. Still way more games than "just one".
Again.. they are not PvE games tho, they are just emasculated PvP games, which is not the same.
a PvE game, would be a game like Project Gorgon, or DDO.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Again.. they are not PvE games tho, they are just emasculated PvP games, which is not the same.
a PvE game, would be a game like Project Gorgon, or DDO.
If a game is played predominantly as a PVE game, it is matter-of-factly a PVE game. I do not think anyone would call E:D a PVP game.
Eh.. Nahh.
Just cause someone might hit a golf ball with a que stick, does not mean they are suddenly playing billiards.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Sometimes they accidentally do it in PVE game threads as well (happened recently in a Pantheon thread with someone complaining about all the PVP).
But if you ask them they will deny it!
That was wizardry I think he's often confused about games and goes off in a tangent which has no bearing on the game he is discussing.
Both sides do this equally whining when a game focusses on one aspect only. People tend to only remember selectively I notice and keep harping that one side does it more.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sometimes they accidentally do it in PVE game threads as well (happened recently in a Pantheon thread with someone complaining about all the PVP).
But if you ask them they will deny it!
That was wizardry I think he's often confused about games and goes off in a tangent which has no bearing on the game he is discussing.
Both sides do this equally whining when a game focusses on one aspect only. People tend to only remember selectively I notice and keep harping that one side does it more.
Nope. It is largely one-sided. Haven't seen anyone complain how P:G or Pantheon is only PVE.
And it wasn't Wizardry. And it wasn't the first time either. One of the posters in this thread also did it once in another game that had both pvp and pve servers.
The problem with your examples is that you are using this small forum here for your sample. That too I might add from 2017 when the population on this forum also largely dropped since your participation by seeing your first comment in 2017 seems to be around then. You see what you see here because a lot of the players here are veterans from Everquest and the PvP players on the forum don't bother to quarrel with the exception of a few people about the non existent PvP. They make a few snide remarks occasionally about the superiority of human opponents but by and large have given up trying to ague here. Some notorious names have not been seen for years.
The forum on PvE games itself are completely different. You see posters pointedly complaining and asking for PvP in those games. I think that is a better example since those are the actual game forums unlike our forum which seems to be a club where we old MMORPGamers are hanging out shooting the breeze. Also Reddit which holds a larger base has a similarly better example of PvP players posting on their forums calling the PvE games boring and unchallenging.
Also I don't understand why you're persistently painting this misleading portrait of PvE players because it is perhaps a reflection of the disdain you feel for them. This is a bad form type stereotyping PvE players as whiners.
I know for a fact that is exactly the type of image PvP players like to use to make PvE players feel small because in the past I have gone to many PvP games and read their comments and they are way nastier than what the PvE players are writing here.
This is a discussion forum where some posters who never say anything until a game like this comes out and they drop a comment or two. Painting a brush on the whole PvE community is unwarranted. Basing your judgement on a few posters here is also shortsighted and erroneous.
Might I also add having read the comments on Reddit that the PvE players who do turn up and make a thread asking for a PvE server are bombarded with such vitriol and anger and this reaction is very different from how the opposite threads are treated on a PvE game when they ask for PvP. PvE players tend to merely want the PvP players to be isolated on their own servers and are happy with that. They do make an exception asking that no balancing to PvE skills be made in favour of PvP.
A recent example is Population Zero and EQ2. I also followed the Discord on EQ2 Tarinax server the PvP server soon to be released on EQ2. I can also personally attest to players coming on the P99 PvE servers to mock and make fun of us but that was because the PvP servers in P99 had a tiny and I mean really tiny population and I believe they were doing this to drum up some players.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......
Wurm Online (PVE server), Project Gorgon, One Hour One Life, Naval Action (PVE server), Legends of Aria (PVE shards), E:D (PVE groups). And no you can't rule out ATitD.
Whoa, looking at his and your list I'd say there are no "good" PVE sandbox MMORPGs out there.
Of course the list of good PVP MMORPGS is pretty small, EVE Online being the only one really in my book.
Edit: you found three pretty good PVP games so I'd say the PVE side does have a point, their list is pretty much all crap.
Perhaps the issue for both sides is they would love to have a new, "good" MMORPG to play, hence the fierce competition every time a title is announced.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Do you go into a Madden NFL 47 (or whatever they are up to now) forum and complain that football games suck?
As I fully expect this site to add a Sports Game section one day in the future, I promise I will make sure to regularly trol.... err post how stupid football or most any other sports games are, don't belong on this site, and are only loved by jocks and former wannabes seeking to relive former glory.
This of course will be countered by claims I must hate them because I am a former nerd, AV / Debate team / Math club member who also whined how unfair it was those weren't considered letter sports and am still butt hurt over never getting my jacket.
I was on the bowling "team" and yes I am still a bit whiff about the jacket.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I also understand why the PvP players get angry when PvE players ask for a PvE server in a PvP game. The impact is far greater on a PvP game that rely on the participation of both types of players for its success and separating them will negatively affect the threshold of available players had they not separated them. This is a crucial difference and why many developers do not want to create a PvE server in a largely PvP game.
PvE games do not rely on PvP players and many times the cool skills that are used in PvE encounters are nerfed to accommodate the situation in the PvP servers. The proper way to handle that is to have have different spells durations but sometimes developers are just to lazy to code that and nerf across the board both types of servers. This is the main reason PvE players complain when PvP servers are made.
Again.. they are not PvE games tho, they are just emasculated PvP games, which is not the same.
a PvE game, would be a game like Project Gorgon, or DDO.
If a game is played predominantly as a PVE game, it is matter-of-factly a PVE game. I do not think anyone would call E:D a PVP game.
Eh.. Nahh.
Just cause someone might hit a golf ball with a que stick, does not mean they are suddenly playing billiards.
So you say E:D is a PVP game?
I don't know anything about Elite Dangerous, but that in no way changes my I stand that if a game is made to be a PvP Game, it is a PvP game. Adding in PvE servers, will not change that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......
Wurm Online (PVE server), Project Gorgon, One Hour One Life, Naval Action (PVE server), Legends of Aria (PVE shards), E:D (PVE groups). And no you can't rule out ATitD.
Whoa, looking at his and your list I'd say there are no "good" PVE sandbox MMORPGs out there.
Of course the list of good PVP MMORPGS is pretty small, EVE Online being the only one really in my book.
Edit: you found three pretty good PVP games so I'd say the PVE side does have a point, their list is pretty much all crap.
Perhaps the issue for both sides is they would love to have a new, "good" MMORPG to play, hence the fierce competition every time a title is announced.
I did not post the list just to win an argument, I actually played or at least tried most of these:
1) E:D is pretty decent and popular (I own both base game and Horizons). I ended up liking EVE more and moving there but I do appreciate a lot some of its elements (esp. its visuals, audio, ship handling and background simulation aka BGS) and lots of players love it and play it exclusively.
2) P:G, ATitD, One Hour One Life: They are actually well-received niche games. I personally enjoyed playing One Hour One Life a lot for many hours and would recommend it without hesitation to the right audience (it is a very different beast though).
3) Wurm Online: cannot really comment, not enough knowledge. Heard good stuff about it though.
4) Naval Action has phenomenal ship handling and combat, I would recommend it to the right audience again for that alone. Think of it as EVE in the age of sails. In the PVE server the crafters lose the dynamics of the economy that come with PVP destruction, and you lose the faction warfare between the nations. Still interesting game.
5) Legends of Aria: yeah the game is bad.
Again, I did not post the list just to win the argument, I could easily live virtually in any of E:D, ATitD, Naval Action, I just liked other games more and my time is limited.
I agree that the PVP sandboxes are more established and have higher production value (with the exception of E:D). That's because up to now that formula seems to work better for PVP, not because there are no good PVE sandboxes.
Im just gonna add, that Ultima online has imo the Best Sandbox PVE expereince out there , just stay in Trammel if thats what you choose , and you will find a very deep challenging engaging world with endless PVE activities that will challenge you at every turn ..
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
4) Using this as a line of defense is a way of creating echo chambers: you are essentially saying "we like PVE, we like shitposting PVP games here, we've been doing this forever, get off our lawn". If what you say about the community of this site shrinking is correct, it is partially due to this too.
Not everyone has the stones for "real" forum PVP, most gamers (or people in general) are whining carebears who run for the moderators at the first sign of someone disagreeing with their opinions.
Tom's got a great video about the subject with some awesome comments running across the bottom, my favorite being "Man hurts other people's feelings; he seriously does not care!"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
However, some of the best RP guilds I've been a part of select PVP enabled servers or PvP sandbox games. Allows for events with other players/guilds (war, conflict/alliances/events).
Usually some few top talent players in the guild, but mostly mediocre or bad PvP players (vs non RP guilds)... but that's not really the point or goal of the guild.
Do you go into a Madden NFL 47 (or whatever they are up to now) forum and complain that football games suck?
That said... this is likely to be something like a Darkfall launch. Had some epic times then... but eventually the people that "lose" quit, and that's not fun for anyone.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why do you guys have to go to every potential PvP game and whine incessantly about how it's not PvE? It makes no sense.
If you don't like PvP games, don't follow and/or play them. Simple. When I see a game aimed at a demographic that isn't me, I just disregard it and look for something else. You can't force every single potential MMO to be exactly what you want it to be.
My whole take with full loot PvP has always been a need to control your risk, if you get ganked the second u walk out of town, that is stupid design. I like the way EVE controls risk with their security system.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
We have one good sandbox PVE MMORPG game (Ryzom and I dont even count ATitD ) and it is dated as can be......That is why many of us are clamoring for something new PVE sandbox wise where we can go explore and play without being killed constantly by other players.
Any MMO that has a PvE server, is a PvP MMO's that just opted to cut it's balls off for more money, and thus not a PvE Game.
Feel free to try and change my mind.
a PvE game, would be a game like Project Gorgon, or DDO.
Just cause someone might hit a golf ball with a que stick, does not mean they are suddenly playing billiards.
Both sides do this equally whining when a game focusses on one aspect only. People tend to only remember selectively I notice and keep harping that one side does it more.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The forum on PvE games itself are completely different. You see posters pointedly complaining and asking for PvP in those games. I think that is a better example since those are the actual game forums unlike our forum which seems to be a club where we old MMORPGamers are hanging out shooting the breeze. Also Reddit which holds a larger base has a similarly better example of PvP players posting on their forums calling the PvE games boring and unchallenging.
Also I don't understand why you're persistently painting this misleading portrait of PvE players because it is perhaps a reflection of the disdain you feel for them. This is a bad form type stereotyping PvE players as whiners.
I know for a fact that is exactly the type of image PvP players like to use to make PvE players feel small because in the past I have gone to many PvP games and read their comments and they are way nastier than what the PvE players are writing here.
This is a discussion forum where some posters who never say anything until a game like this comes out and they drop a comment or two. Painting a brush on the whole PvE community is unwarranted. Basing your judgement on a few posters here is also shortsighted and erroneous.
Might I also add having read the comments on Reddit that the PvE players who do turn up and make a thread asking for a PvE server are bombarded with such vitriol and anger and this reaction is very different from how the opposite threads are treated on a PvE game when they ask for PvP. PvE players tend to merely want the PvP players to be isolated on their own servers and are happy with that. They do make an exception asking that no balancing to PvE skills be made in favour of PvP.
A recent example is Population Zero and EQ2. I also followed the Discord on EQ2 Tarinax server the PvP server soon to be released on EQ2. I can also personally attest to players coming on the P99 PvE servers to mock and make fun of us but that was because the PvP servers in P99 had a tiny and I mean really tiny population and I believe they were doing this to drum up some players.
Of course the list of good PVP MMORPGS is pretty small, EVE Online being the only one really in my book.
Edit: you found three pretty good PVP games so I'd say the PVE side does have a point, their list is pretty much all crap.
Perhaps the issue for both sides is they would love to have a new, "good" MMORPG to play, hence the fierce competition every time a title is announced.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This of course will be countered by claims I must hate them because I am a former nerd, AV / Debate team / Math club member who also whined how unfair it was those weren't considered letter sports and am still butt hurt over never getting my jacket.
I was on the bowling "team" and yes I am still a bit whiff about the jacket.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
PvE games do not rely on PvP players and many times the cool skills that are used in PvE encounters are nerfed to accommodate the situation in the PvP servers. The proper way to handle that is to have have different spells durations but sometimes developers are just to lazy to code that and nerf across the board both types of servers. This is the main reason PvE players complain when PvP servers are made.
Im just gonna add, that Ultima online has imo the Best Sandbox PVE expereince out there , just stay in Trammel if thats what you choose , and you will find a very deep challenging engaging world with endless PVE activities that will challenge you at every turn ..
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Tom's got a great video about the subject with some awesome comments running across the bottom, my favorite being "Man hurts other people's feelings; he seriously does not care!"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon