Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
We saw this in EQ1.....Everyone had to be super well geared or often you didnt get into a decent guild or get good groups....The longer the game went the worse it got... In WoW we started seeing things like "gear score" where player A might have 1200 gear and is judged to be a better player than Player B who only has 1150 gear score.....No other factor.
Gear Score(and other raidmeters) are such controversial tools. dps meters are ok, GS is not imo. Because GS is completely misused. People get all tangled up on superficialities like the GS and then you end up rejecting good players(who maybe don't have enough GS) for mediocre players(who do have enough GS). As I said, it is an useful tool, but completely misused for superficial purposes(at the root of which is the constant rush, rush, rush mindset).
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
We saw this in EQ1.....Everyone had to be super well geared or often you didnt get into a decent guild or get good groups....The longer the game went the worse it got... In WoW we started seeing things like "gear score" where player A might have 1200 gear and is judged to be a better player than Player B who only has 1150 gear score.....No other factor.
Gear Score(and other raidmeters) are such controversial tools. dps meters are ok, GS is not imo. Because GS is completely misused. People get all tangled up on superficialities like the GS and then you end up rejecting good players(who maybe don't have enough GS) for mediocre players(who do have enough GS). As I said, it is an useful tool, but completely misused for superficial purposes(at the root of which is the constant rush, rush, rush mindset).
I agree. Alot of shitty players out there with high gear scores.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Just talking to the developers going with the numbers idea, they know what players are doing so that's what players want, that's what they cater to. Certainly happens but is it an honest policy or just a self fulfilling one? Take food and drink, we like high calorie bad for us food. Supermarkets can see that's what we like, but they don't just sell food which is bad for your diet. There are enough customers who will make a different choice to make it viable for the supermarket sell a range of products.
If players had the ability to show through gameplay that they wanted things a different way they would. Can't say how big that flag would be raised but they would raise it. The trouble is all games not just MMOs are incredibly difficult to play a different way, we don't get a menu we get a dinner plate put down in front of us. That's the gameplay, no other choice, no way to show you want to play the game a different way.
Grocery Store.
That's a fun analogy, and I think a new one. Also a really good one, as grocery stores often do a lot of work to know their costumer base, in fact there was a fascinating article regarding Target outlet stores, where they were charting their costumers buying habits, and noticed a change in their purchasing, which would align with being pregnant, so they sent them a targeted flyer of all kinds of things to help them out. Turned out, they were still living at home and had not told their parents they were pregnant, the father tried to sue Target for targeting their young daughter with pregnancy ads, and that she was too young for such things. The court case was, umm, revealing, to say the least. target changed the way they ran marketing after that, so as not to be so obvious, and work with a more subtle approach to their targeted ads and flyers.
So this is a really great example of a type of company that really augments their money making off knowing who is buying what and why from their store, so they can ensure they get access and more of what it is they are looking for.
A lot of people do not realize that is was grocery stores that were one of the front runners of tracking their customers, and they were the first people to put out reward cards, and the like, this allowed them to know more about the people shopping in their local and regional stores, and making sure they had what they wanted.
One of the other things that makes grocery stores fascinating, is that they are local, and tend to focus on having local fare and flavors on their shelves, that cater to their local demographical region that may or may not be common in other stores in different regions, even so much so, as across town.
A prime example of this, is in California, the more rural grocery stores have different stock then the ones near cities. Not to mention California has many kinds demographics, so you will find stores with various kinds of ethnic foods, and this will change from one side of town to another, simply due to that regions economic, social, ethnic, and religious makeup, and these factors will also cause the products on their shelves to vary in quality, price, and style of items as well.
Case in point, In more vegan regions in CA, you will find that the local grocery store will have a whole vegan section that will rival more chain brands known for having such items. Simply because, they know every item that comes into the store, and every item that gets sold, and thus they know, what will sell and what won't, so they make sure they can provide it to their customer base with the least amount of loss.
Another example: In New Jersey, there is a high population of Jewish people, so you will find that the grocery stores in in these places do not carry much in the way of pork products, and tend to have a large directly kosher sections.
I think Grocery Stores was a great example really to compare to MMO's, because they put in a huge amount of effort to know their demographic on both a regional and local level, in every sense of the word, they chart their metrics, so they do not waste time and money on stocking things that simply won't sell.
When we go back to MMO's. It seems, while we could argue they have the metrics, they do not put in the time or effort to really focus on reading their player base from those numbers so they can provide the product their customers want with the least amount of loss.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What makes you think that you aren't wrong and the community is actually right?
Also, how do you know that the loudest get their way?
.
My taste is right because it is what I like and I am the top authority on what I like. If one more qualifier of subject were added, like "what is best for this game's total sales" versus, "what I like best," my opinion stops being authorative. But when the question is about what I like, there is no higher authority.
Well that goes without saying for very solo oriented ventures.
But we're talking mmorpgs.
I can say without a doubt, in the same vein as you did, that I'm the top authority of what I like. Common sense.
But that doesn't mean it works for large group-based endeavors.
For example, I GUARANTEE that what I like would NEVER fly for an MMORPG and would never stay afloat. It would be too esoteric, would have so many hidden and obscure things, and would be a bit too hardcore for the average player that it would just never fly.
So if I was making a game I'd have to either A, have all the "moneys" in the world and know I would have to keep the whole thing going because it would have 30k people (if I'm lucky) at best or B, advise NOT to listen to me and make something that would actually make "some" money.
To the point, just because I like/love something doesn't mean that it should be made when it requires and is dependent upon others liking it too.
In the end, it's not all about me.
You have great point about multiplayer games being different from single player games.
This is why I personally do not "put in my two cents" as games get developed. I shut up about what *I* want. When the game changes its course to "crowd voices", it usually means that the game has lost my interest and I don't ever want play it. But hopefully many other players do and enjoy it.
It's not about "them changing for me", but rather staying the course for what interested me in the first place. I despise players that want every game to cater to them. To me, that is the epitome of entitlement. No thank you
I will just sit back and watch how the game reached release. If they deviate from their original ideas that brought me to them, somewhere I move on looking for something else.
The only demand I make on multiplayer games is that they appeal to me. I think I have that right. I don't have the "right" to make every game cater to my taste. I wish more players held the same attitude.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Just thinking as I read through the responses... (apologies if this addressed on page 4)
Are there examples of "good community feedback" that made MMOs better?
Did Trammel make UO better?
Is New World "better" changing from a PvP MMO to a PvE MMO, thanks to community feedback?
I recall Kyleran talking about changes to EVE that helped him decide to leave the game after years of multiple accounts. Did EVE garner more users with those changes?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
I honestly just see raid as something to stop people from quiting. You get a point where you done everything in the game except raid... But raid is time gated so it's going to take you 1 year to complete... which is basically the next expansion.
I always wonder why grand marshal weapon is so hard to get in wow classic. You can pretty much grind all day forever and still not get it. Then I realize Blizzard basically don't want you to get it because once you get it you probably quitting the game. In the next expansion, Blizzard just started to time gate PvP too. You can basically play a bit every week and eventually get the best gear... Which is basically when the next expansion come out.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Just talking to the developers going with the numbers idea, they know what players are doing so that's what players want, that's what they cater to. Certainly happens but is it an honest policy or just a self fulfilling one? Take food and drink, we like high calorie bad for us food. Supermarkets can see that's what we like, but they don't just sell food which is bad for your diet. There are enough customers who will make a different choice to make it viable for the supermarket sell a range of products.
If players had the ability to show through gameplay that they wanted things a different way they would. Can't say how big that flag would be raised but they would raise it. The trouble is all games not just MMOs are incredibly difficult to play a different way, we don't get a menu we get a dinner plate put down in front of us. That's the gameplay, no other choice, no way to show you want to play the game a different way.
That's a great example
I've been thinking about the "metrics" approach... What if an MMO didn't have an activity to show metrics for?
Did GW2 have "metrics" for raiding before adding in raiding? Can a player desiring a more robust crafting game loop show by metrics that this is what they desire?
Aren't there many examples of players asking for something that has no present metrics to back their desires? Maybe from "other MMOs", but not the one being scrutinized at the moment.
Sometimes, it works like WoW did designing off of what the devs disliked about EQ1, et al. That MMORPG took off like wildfire and redefined the whole genre
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
That's a great example
I've been thinking about the "metrics" approach... What if an MMO didn't have an activity to show metrics for?
Did GW2 have "metrics" for raiding before adding in raiding? Can a player desiring a more robust crafting game loop show by metrics that this is what they desire?
Aren't there many examples of players asking for something that has no present metrics to back their desires? Maybe from "other MMOs", but not the one being scrutinized at the moment.
Sometimes, it works like WoW did designing off of what the devs disliked about EQ1, et al. That MMORPG took off like wildfire and redefined the whole genre
Funnily enough raiding was the exact example I was going to give. If you don't have an element of gameplay your metrics tell you nothing about whether the players want that gameplay. Also are your 3 man group dungeons just not that good or is it because the players don't want dungeons? Another example is the Classic servers, the metrics in the modern game showed that every one was happy with the modern game and had no wish to return to any old school styles of gameplay.
To continue the grocery analogy all games by default are like fast food stores, they offer a very narrow menu of gameplay. Now that's a necessity, we can't expect MMOs to offer every type of MMO gameplay that has ever existed. But it does mean when people on here talk with certitude about how the "modern MMO" must have the right gameplay because so many people play them and metrics never lie, they are on shaky ground. That does not mean old school types are absolutely right, just that the metrics are proving far less than modern MMO fans believe.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
I mean, I never fully realized how many systems were superfluous until I started thinking about it in WAR(actually RoR). You basically only need Blues, maybe Sets. But there's so many of these things, how does a SHARP vertical curve help a "PvP focused MMO"(=Sovereign gear etc)? Why is there a system that messes with universal stats(=Renown Talents)? None of that is elegant, it ends up as a jumbled mess.
And, yeah, I wouldn't rally against whales and elitists per se, but it is true. So many unnecessary systems.
Just thinking as I read through the responses... (apologies if this addressed on page 4)
Are there examples of "good community feedback" that made MMOs better?
Did Trammel make UO better?
Is New World "better" changing from a PvP MMO to a PvE MMO, thanks to community feedback?
I recall Kyleran talking about changes to EVE that helped him decide to leave the game after years of multiple accounts. Did EVE garner more users with those changes?
In my totally antecedotal view they did not. Besides losing my 6 annual subs my four friends, all with multiple accounts walked away a few months after I did for similar reason, they made our efforts less efficient and much riskier.
Very doubtful they saw much, if any influx of new players to replace those who left due to the changes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
I mean, I never fully realized how many systems were superfluous until I started thinking about it in WAR(actually RoR). You basically only need Blues, maybe Sets. But there's so many of these things, how does a SHARP vertical curve help a "PvP focused MMO"(=Sovereign gear etc)? Why is there a system that messes with universal stats(=Renown Talents)? None of that is elegant, it ends up as a jumbled mess.
And, yeah, I wouldn't rally against whales and elitists per se, but it is true. So many unnecessary systems.
Vertical progression and power creep is just side effect of shallow mechanics made so the player "spend time". What do you do when you get top gear in a theme park mmo? Do the same content... but now with bigger numbers.
But the whole point I think you guys are missing is: Are you having fun with the gameplay loop? If yes, then ok, have a good game.
That is very much true. I do enjoy just plowing through enemies, idk why exactly. Stiff competition isn't my wet dream. So, bigger numbers do work their magic on me. But there is a point to this. After that, it becomes pointless. I won't do raids(or even Dungeons or PvP) for gear's sake. I can grind mobs(...that's actually surprisingly fun ; something changed about me) or do quests(acceptable, but feels entirely like a shopping list and that gets on my nerves tbh), but I won't do complex things just because of gear.
In the end, as long as it is fun, it is ok. For me that means acceptable time-to-kill on mobs, general feel of power, gameplay being almost...tactile(idk how to explain it better), good xp progression etc. Example in WAR: leveling as an Archmage or Knight or Runepriest or Marauder(to name few of the more fun examples)? Perfect(ok, not exactly, the state of Focused Offense just grinds my gears and the RP Talent Trees are annoying in their super structured inefficiency). The leveling of something like BW? Just annoying. Something like Chosen? Fuck off(a CHOSEN being that kind of a party buff wimp? A CHOSEN!!! FUCK. RIGHT. OFF!). In the end, the best are probably either Slayer or Witch Hunter after a point. Just so good, both of them.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
I honestly just see raid as something to stop people from quiting. You get a point where you done everything in the game except raid... But raid is time gated so it's going to take you 1 year to complete... which is basically the next expansion.
I always wonder why grand marshal weapon is so hard to get in wow classic. You can pretty much grind all day forever and still not get it. Then I realize Blizzard basically don't want you to get it because once you get it you probably quitting the game. In the next expansion, Blizzard just started to time gate PvP too. You can basically play a bit every week and eventually get the best gear... Which is basically when the next expansion come out.
I personally love the idea of at least a few things in a game being damn near unattainable. Bit creates added value. You see someone walk by with it and you are in awe. That's a very unique feeling that is rarely happening anymore in mmorpgs.
Ive been saying since 1999 that the hardcore raiding element of the playerbase has been actively destroying these games through concentrated whining and lobbying.
Ive been calling it "raid culture" but it is also known as "raid or die". Its has completely poisoned and destroyed mmo's.
But why? Why do you have to raid? Give me a reason then I'll give you a counterexample.
This reminds me of something Patrick Rothfuss said. "When I have to deal with this, it is like having a huge turd in the middle of my meal, it does not matter how great, or wonderful the rest of the meal is, or how much I may love what the meal is, when that huge turd is sitting in the middle of it, it soils the whole meal around it"
While he was not taking about gaming, the idea is simple enough, there will be this massive pile of content in the game, with all kinds of rewards linked to it, these players simply will not be able to take part in, and knowing that will make this huge void in the game for them.. like a a turd sitting in the middle of a banquet.
I understand that, but...still, why worry about those things you 100% don't need? Is this some kind of fomo or what have you? Because you don't even need Blue, let alone above, gear for most of content. So, why get upset that you don't have a Purple or an Orange item? Must be something irrational I'm not seeing here. epeen or what have you, perhaps?
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
I honestly just see raid as something to stop people from quiting. You get a point where you done everything in the game except raid... But raid is time gated so it's going to take you 1 year to complete... which is basically the next expansion.
I always wonder why grand marshal weapon is so hard to get in wow classic. You can pretty much grind all day forever and still not get it. Then I realize Blizzard basically don't want you to get it because once you get it you probably quitting the game. In the next expansion, Blizzard just started to time gate PvP too. You can basically play a bit every week and eventually get the best gear... Which is basically when the next expansion come out.
This kind of grind can be put in other ways, and again, GW2 is a prime example of this.
Legendary Weapons, were a huge materials sink, and a super rare precursor weapon that could drop from any chat that would also drop a Yellow or Better. In short, the Precursor was purely RNG, and then followed by a huge ass grind of materials and crafting.
Simple enough, no need to raid, no need for anything elitist, just luck, and persistence.
Honestly, if the goal was simply to not get people to quit, GW2's Legendary Journeys, which in many cases required players to do achievements and explore regions through the entire game, as well as being huge ass materials sinks, and thus are a far better system of Grind with Purpose, then putting in something like Raids.
Now, to be fair, it's not raids themselves that are the problem, I love raiding in DDO, but that was also a game that built from the ground up, to be a raiding game, from the very start, the game was about quest series leading to these epic raid endings, like your typical D&D campaign, where the whole thing leads to that final showdown.
In that venture, DDO also has the best Dungeon/Raid content of any game I have played, hands down, no contest, the best.
The main issue with Raids being put into GW2, was they were shoehorned into the game, and put into the game after GW2 spent it first 3 formative years advertising itself as the game for everyone, as the premier casuals game, and thus had generated a huge casual player base. It did not have the effect of retaining people.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Just talking to the developers going with the numbers idea, they know what players are doing so that's what players want, that's what they cater to. Certainly happens but is it an honest policy or just a self fulfilling one? Take food and drink, we like high calorie bad for us food. Supermarkets can see that's what we like, but they don't just sell food which is bad for your diet. There are enough customers who will make a different choice to make it viable for the supermarket sell a range of products.
If players had the ability to show through gameplay that they wanted things a different way they would. Can't say how big that flag would be raised but they would raise it. The trouble is all games not just MMOs are incredibly difficult to play a different way, we don't get a menu we get a dinner plate put down in front of us. That's the gameplay, no other choice, no way to show you want to play the game a different way.
That's a great example
I've been thinking about the "metrics" approach... What if an MMO didn't have an activity to show metrics for?
Did GW2 have "metrics" for raiding before adding in raiding? Can a player desiring a more robust crafting game loop show by metrics that this is what they desire?
Ok, I want to talk about this one.
Anet/GW2, spent all their formative development being the MMO for everyone else, an MMO that people who were tired of the typical MMO (WoW Clones) could come to, and enjoy something different, something unique, something for them.
For all the people that enjoyed normal MMO's (WOW Clones) there was no shortage, and GW2, set itself up as the Non-WoW-Clone MMO.
I have to give it to them, their Core Game, was right inline with this pitch, and no doubt this brought them the demographic they had set out to attract.
Now, Imagine you built a brand for the last 3 years, for a specific kind of client, say, in this example, you are seeking to sell your wares to Vegans, so you open your doors, as Not the traditional luncheonette, and have a full Vegan menu, and then.. you opt to do some renovations in and put in a full line of 100% pure ground beef hamburgers, so fresh you can hear them mooing before they hit the grill.
Do you really need metrics to realize this going to go over like a lump of shit with your established clientele?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Lets get something clear, It's not what I think they should or should not have done, keep in mind, I was not some whale dumping millions into their game every quarter, I was some peon bloke spending a measly $40 a month. So obviously my staying or going in the grand scheme of things, was totally irrelevant.
So if they had metrics that told them, flipping me the bird and telling to me to "deal or GTFO" was a good plan, then kudos to them, but I highly doubt they had any metrics that told them pissing off whatever demographic they pissed off with HoT, was going to be a good thing on any level.
If you have Solid metrics, it's not a guessing game where mistakes like that are made.
Just talking to the developers going with the numbers idea, they know what players are doing so that's what players want, that's what they cater to. Certainly happens but is it an honest policy or just a self fulfilling one? Take food and drink, we like high calorie bad for us food. Supermarkets can see that's what we like, but they don't just sell food which is bad for your diet. There are enough customers who will make a different choice to make it viable for the supermarket sell a range of products.
If players had the ability to show through gameplay that they wanted things a different way they would. Can't say how big that flag would be raised but they would raise it. The trouble is all games not just MMOs are incredibly difficult to play a different way, we don't get a menu we get a dinner plate put down in front of us. That's the gameplay, no other choice, no way to show you want to play the game a different way.
That's a great example
I've been thinking about the "metrics" approach... What if an MMO didn't have an activity to show metrics for?
Did GW2 have "metrics" for raiding before adding in raiding? Can a player desiring a more robust crafting game loop show by metrics that this is what they desire?
Aren't there many examples of players asking for something that has no present metrics to back their desires? Maybe from "other MMOs", but not the one being scrutinized at the moment.
Sometimes, it works like WoW did designing off of what the devs disliked about EQ1, et al. That MMORPG took off like wildfire and redefined the whole genre
That is a great point, but I'd like to address when they do the opposite of metrics for solid reasons. A good recent example would be the changes Blizzard is making to arenas in Burning Crusade. You started at 1500, did your 10 arenas a week, and got your welfare epics. The arenas popped instantly and it was rare you faced the same team twice.
With the changes they made it is clear far, far less people will bother with the arena. Blizzard is doing this to increase the value of raid gear. But this goes against doing something for metrics. It is putting barriers in place to drastically lower the metrics and involvement of that activity.
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Also, in your post before this you ask a question about if community involvement ever helped a game, and one of your examples was New World. I was not interested in this game until they made changes to make it less crafting focused and more pve focused. I will give this game a shot now where before I would have ignored it, as I have never enjoyed a crafting game. I also have always been confused of why people call crafting games pvp games or survival games. But is attracting me worth alienating their original audience? Changes that I like are changes other people hate. Have they seen activity and interest rise since changing focus? It is hard to say if this is was a bad decision or not without a qualifier - like size of community, longevity, etc.
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Lastly, there is a way for devs to empower the community to make their own changes and run the game they want. Since FO76 is a crafting game it does nothing for me. I find it boring to pick berries and constantly ensure I am full, etc. I want to kill shit. I've tried it a couple times, and logging in to find all your berries have rotten and you suck until you waste all your playing time picking berries and cooking and eating before you can kill shit just doesn't do it for me.
But, FO76 allows player servers now. Why not allow player servers that change the rules? I would love to play FO76 on a player server that plays more like a non-crafting game where food just gives a buff, food items do not degrade over time, etc. It would hurt no one and draw more people. Especially if it was powerful enough to run persistent worlds like NWN 1 and 2.
The only solid argument I can think of against it is it would steal time and resources from the devs making it a better game for the current community, who clearly love crafting and harvesting berries over and over, etc. So then it becomes a question of expanding your audience versus catering exclusively to your current playerbase again.
A game is being made and is everything you wanted in a game. The devs say they are open to community feedback and making changes based on community feedback. Do you trust the rest of the community to get it right?
On the other hand, a game you are not that interested in because they are doing your favorite genre wrong (in your opinion) opens the game to community feedback and promises to make changes based on that feedback. Do you think the game will be less or more interesting to you after the community feedback changes are in?
In my experience the loudest community members that tend to get their way usually have the absolute worst taste and in both cases I think the game would end up worse. But, even when they have community surveys or polls I am usually not in the majority in any given subject.
A game is being made and is everything you wanted in a game. The devs say they are open to community feedback and making changes based on community feedback. Do you trust the rest of the community to get it right?
On the other hand, a game you are not that interested in because they are doing your favorite genre wrong (in your opinion) opens the game to community feedback and promises to make changes based on that feedback. Do you think the game will be less or more interesting to you after the community feedback changes are in?
In my experience the loudest community members that tend to get their way usually have the absolute worst taste and in both cases I think the game would end up worse. But, even when they have community surveys or polls I am usually not in the majority in any given subject.
listen......
They can pretend to or listen for a bit but then the mentality this is my game kicks in and they shut out most of what they don't think will work
Nahh.. for me it's pretty simple.
I play a game I like. I like the game that way, which is why I am actively playing it.
Then comes in some other people, and they only kind-of like the game, but want the game to be more like other game, they liked, but stopped playing for reasons.
Let's get something clear, I am not playing other game as well, for reasons, I am playing the game I am playing because it is not other game. If I wanted to play other game, I'd just play other game, and not be playing this game. So, if you left other game for reasons, coming to this game just to turn it into other game, I would rather you not come to this game to start with, and just stay with other game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
A game is being made and is everything you wanted in a game. The devs say they are open to community feedback and making changes based on community feedback. Do you trust the rest of the community to get it right?
On the other hand, a game you are not that interested in because they are doing your favorite genre wrong (in your opinion) opens the game to community feedback and promises to make changes based on that feedback. Do you think the game will be less or more interesting to you after the community feedback changes are in?
In my experience the loudest community members that tend to get their way usually have the absolute worst taste and in both cases I think the game would end up worse. But, even when they have community surveys or polls I am usually not in the majority in any given subject.
There is no right or wrong way when it comes to opinions. Ultimately it’s up to the devs to decide the direction they want to take and if the feedback they receive is aligned with that direction then they can consider it. Devs that listen solely to the loudest voices for the sake of satisfying them don’t have a direction to begin with.
I think a developer has to have a clear vision for the project.
If they are careful and listen to community members who've bought into that vision then it can be a profitable partnership. That is, community generated ideas have to mesh with the vision, not rewrite it.
What happens too often is community members impose their vision of a game onto the developer vision - and if the developer isn't clear on what they're trying to accomplish they end up in a huge mess. See: New World
You can think of many examples:
Developers with a PvP vision spend way too much time making the game PvE friendly.
Developers that want to create distinct classes that necessitate group play end up making the game solo friendly - which results in OP classes blasting through content.
I could go on...
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the developer to let a community know that ideas inconsistent with the vision will not be entertained, despite protestations from some community members that not incorporating their ideas is a violation of their civil rights.
GW2 originally tried this approach, for a few things.
I will use Mounts for an example. They explained that the way points made it so that mounts did not need to exist, and even made a point to note that mounts in any form, did not exist in their game.
PoF added Mounts to the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think a developer has to have a clear vision for the project.
If they are careful and listen to community members who've bought into that vision then it can be a profitable partnership. That is, community generated ideas have to mesh with the vision, not rewrite it.
What happens too often is community members impose their vision of a game onto the developer vision - and if the developer isn't clear on what they're trying to accomplish they end up in a huge mess. See: New World
You can think of many examples:
Developers with a PvP vision spend way too much time making the game PvE friendly.
Developers that want to create distinct classes that necessitate group play end up making the game solo friendly - which results in OP classes blasting through content.
I could go on...
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the developer to let a community know that ideas inconsistent with the vision will not be entertained, despite protestations from some community members that not incorporating their ideas is a violation of their civil rights.
I mostly agree with your statement here. However, the community shouldn't become an echo chamber, nothing good tends to come from that kind of situation. If the community is a sounding board, and allowed to discuss the negative side of an idea, then it can be an invaluable tool for the development team. Too often, though, it appears that designers only want the praise of the echo chamber, not a critical eye on how an idea might turn out. A quality devil's advocate can be a phenomenal tool, if used properly.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
Gear Score(and other raidmeters) are such controversial tools. dps meters are ok, GS is not imo. Because GS is completely misused. People get all tangled up on superficialities like the GS and then you end up rejecting good players(who maybe don't have enough GS) for mediocre players(who do have enough GS). As I said, it is an useful tool, but completely misused for superficial purposes(at the root of which is the constant rush, rush, rush mindset).
The counter to this would be. "Then why put in raids and purple at all if there was no point in getting them? Just some irrational epeen need by the raiders"
If Blue is enough, then the game could and should safely stop of Blue gear, if that is all that is needed, that is all that should be made, anything beyond that is, as you put it, simply feeding some irrational epeen need, which is not good for a social game, and really shows how destructive and pointless raids are in MMO's to begin with.
GW2, originally took this approach, with capping gear at Exotics, that was all that was needed, that was all they made, they were plentiful and easy to get, and good enough.
Elitist and Raiders cried they needed something Better, that started with Anet putting in Ascended Gear for Fractals, and led up to Legendary Armor from Raids.
All because of some irrational epeen need, and that is where all the problems are.. So I guess thanks for reinforcing the stand against raiders and elitist.
That's a fun analogy, and I think a new one. Also a really good one, as grocery stores often do a lot of work to know their costumer base, in fact there was a fascinating article regarding Target outlet stores, where they were charting their costumers buying habits, and noticed a change in their purchasing, which would align with being pregnant, so they sent them a targeted flyer of all kinds of things to help them out. Turned out, they were still living at home and had not told their parents they were pregnant, the father tried to sue Target for targeting their young daughter with pregnancy ads, and that she was too young for such things. The court case was, umm, revealing, to say the least. target changed the way they ran marketing after that, so as not to be so obvious, and work with a more subtle approach to their targeted ads and flyers.
So this is a really great example of a type of company that really augments their money making off knowing who is buying what and why from their store, so they can ensure they get access and more of what it is they are looking for.
A lot of people do not realize that is was grocery stores that were one of the front runners of tracking their customers, and they were the first people to put out reward cards, and the like, this allowed them to know more about the people shopping in their local and regional stores, and making sure they had what they wanted.
One of the other things that makes grocery stores fascinating, is that they are local, and tend to focus on having local fare and flavors on their shelves, that cater to their local demographical region that may or may not be common in other stores in different regions, even so much so, as across town.
A prime example of this, is in California, the more rural grocery stores have different stock then the ones near cities. Not to mention California has many kinds demographics, so you will find stores with various kinds of ethnic foods, and this will change from one side of town to another, simply due to that regions economic, social, ethnic, and religious makeup, and these factors will also cause the products on their shelves to vary in quality, price, and style of items as well.
Case in point, In more vegan regions in CA, you will find that the local grocery store will have a whole vegan section that will rival more chain brands known for having such items. Simply because, they know every item that comes into the store, and every item that gets sold, and thus they know, what will sell and what won't, so they make sure they can provide it to their customer base with the least amount of loss.
Another example: In New Jersey, there is a high population of Jewish people, so you will find that the grocery stores in in these places do not carry much in the way of pork products, and tend to have a large directly kosher sections.
I think Grocery Stores was a great example really to compare to MMO's, because they put in a huge amount of effort to know their demographic on both a regional and local level, in every sense of the word, they chart their metrics, so they do not waste time and money on stocking things that simply won't sell.
When we go back to MMO's. It seems, while we could argue they have the metrics, they do not put in the time or effort to really focus on reading their player base from those numbers so they can provide the product their customers want with the least amount of loss.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Are there examples of "good community feedback" that made MMOs better?
Did Trammel make UO better?
Is New World "better" changing from a PvP MMO to a PvE MMO, thanks to community feedback?
I recall Kyleran talking about changes to EVE that helped him decide to leave the game after years of multiple accounts. Did EVE garner more users with those changes?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I honestly just see raid as something to stop people from quiting. You get a point where you done everything in the game except raid... But raid is time gated so it's going to take you 1 year to complete... which is basically the next expansion.
I always wonder why grand marshal weapon is so hard to get in wow classic. You can pretty much grind all day forever and still not get it. Then I realize Blizzard basically don't want you to get it because once you get it you probably quitting the game. In the next expansion, Blizzard just started to time gate PvP too. You can basically play a bit every week and eventually get the best gear... Which is basically when the next expansion come out.
I've been thinking about the "metrics" approach... What if an MMO didn't have an activity to show metrics for?
Did GW2 have "metrics" for raiding before adding in raiding? Can a player desiring a more robust crafting game loop show by metrics that this is what they desire?
Aren't there many examples of players asking for something that has no present metrics to back their desires? Maybe from "other MMOs", but not the one being scrutinized at the moment.
Sometimes, it works like WoW did designing off of what the devs disliked about EQ1, et al. That MMORPG took off like wildfire and redefined the whole genre
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
To continue the grocery analogy all games by default are like fast food stores, they offer a very narrow menu of gameplay. Now that's a necessity, we can't expect MMOs to offer every type of MMO gameplay that has ever existed. But it does mean when people on here talk with certitude about how the "modern MMO" must have the right gameplay because so many people play them and metrics never lie, they are on shaky ground. That does not mean old school types are absolutely right, just that the metrics are proving far less than modern MMO fans believe.
Very doubtful they saw much, if any influx of new players to replace those who left due to the changes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Legendary Weapons, were a huge materials sink, and a super rare precursor weapon that could drop from any chat that would also drop a Yellow or Better. In short, the Precursor was purely RNG, and then followed by a huge ass grind of materials and crafting.
Simple enough, no need to raid, no need for anything elitist, just luck, and persistence.
Honestly, if the goal was simply to not get people to quit, GW2's Legendary Journeys, which in many cases required players to do achievements and explore regions through the entire game, as well as being huge ass materials sinks, and thus are a far better system of Grind with Purpose, then putting in something like Raids.
Now, to be fair, it's not raids themselves that are the problem, I love raiding in DDO, but that was also a game that built from the ground up, to be a raiding game, from the very start, the game was about quest series leading to these epic raid endings, like your typical D&D campaign, where the whole thing leads to that final showdown.
In that venture, DDO also has the best Dungeon/Raid content of any game I have played, hands down, no contest, the best.
The main issue with Raids being put into GW2, was they were shoehorned into the game, and put into the game after GW2 spent it first 3 formative years advertising itself as the game for everyone, as the premier casuals game, and thus had generated a huge casual player base. It did not have the effect of retaining people.
Anet/GW2, spent all their formative development being the MMO for everyone else, an MMO that people who were tired of the typical MMO (WoW Clones) could come to, and enjoy something different, something unique, something for them.
For all the people that enjoyed normal MMO's (WOW Clones) there was no shortage, and GW2, set itself up as the Non-WoW-Clone MMO.
I have to give it to them, their Core Game, was right inline with this pitch, and no doubt this brought them the demographic they had set out to attract.
Now, Imagine you built a brand for the last 3 years, for a specific kind of client, say, in this example, you are seeking to sell your wares to Vegans, so you open your doors, as Not the traditional luncheonette, and have a full Vegan menu, and then.. you opt to do some renovations in and put in a full line of 100% pure ground beef hamburgers, so fresh you can hear them mooing before they hit the grill.
Do you really need metrics to realize this going to go over like a lump of shit with your established clientele?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
With the changes they made it is clear far, far less people will bother with the arena. Blizzard is doing this to increase the value of raid gear. But this goes against doing something for metrics. It is putting barriers in place to drastically lower the metrics and involvement of that activity.
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Also, in your post before this you ask a question about if community involvement ever helped a game, and one of your examples was New World. I was not interested in this game until they made changes to make it less crafting focused and more pve focused. I will give this game a shot now where before I would have ignored it, as I have never enjoyed a crafting game. I also have always been confused of why people call crafting games pvp games or survival games. But is attracting me worth alienating their original audience? Changes that I like are changes other people hate. Have they seen activity and interest rise since changing focus? It is hard to say if this is was a bad decision or not without a qualifier - like size of community, longevity, etc.
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Lastly, there is a way for devs to empower the community to make their own changes and run the game they want. Since FO76 is a crafting game it does nothing for me. I find it boring to pick berries and constantly ensure I am full, etc. I want to kill shit. I've tried it a couple times, and logging in to find all your berries have rotten and you suck until you waste all your playing time picking berries and cooking and eating before you can kill shit just doesn't do it for me.
But, FO76 allows player servers now. Why not allow player servers that change the rules? I would love to play FO76 on a player server that plays more like a non-crafting game where food just gives a buff, food items do not degrade over time, etc. It would hurt no one and draw more people. Especially if it was powerful enough to run persistent worlds like NWN 1 and 2.
The only solid argument I can think of against it is it would steal time and resources from the devs making it a better game for the current community, who clearly love crafting and harvesting berries over and over, etc. So then it becomes a question of expanding your audience versus catering exclusively to your current playerbase again.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
I play a game I like. I like the game that way, which is why I am actively playing it.
Then comes in some other people, and they only kind-of like the game, but want the game to be more like other game, they liked, but stopped playing for reasons.
Let's get something clear, I am not playing other game as well, for reasons, I am playing the game I am playing because it is not other game. If I wanted to play other game, I'd just play other game, and not be playing this game. So, if you left other game for reasons, coming to this game just to turn it into other game, I would rather you not come to this game to start with, and just stay with other game.
I will use Mounts for an example. They explained that the way points made it so that mounts did not need to exist, and even made a point to note that mounts in any form, did not exist in their game.
PoF added Mounts to the game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.