They need to either get their development work right the first time or cancel the project. Its not a viable option to continue redeveloping the game for another 7 years. They will run out of money, game will be outdated, and lose interest from their customers.
This game is in the same territory as a couple other crowdfund MMO with people heading it that have no prior game development experience and/or knowledge.
This is a legitimate concern. However, these guys were hand-picked by Brad himself. So you either trust Brad's choices or not.
Bard was not exactly a person with a history of making great choices from what we know...
Earlier this year, VR spouted praises at their development team which has been busy correcting many of the coding mistakes the initial developers (under Brad) had committed. That alone doesn't look too good for Brad's leadership abilities. There have been other instances, too.
I am not going to say Brad is talented or not because I didn't know him, and really haven't got access to the real data to know or not.
Someone saying they are fixing someone's mistakes is not indicative of actually making them better. Look at NW they fix mistakes and it turns worse. This could easily be happening at VR.
What we do know is Brad released a playable popular game in a reasonable time frame. These guys haven't. So that's Brad 1-0 for me.
Maybe Brad was sitting at the top taking credit for others work, who knows. But at least he didn't completely screw EQ up either. If anyone knows the "real devs" behind EQ success then please let us know so we can follow their work history.
I have often wondered if the good games of old/new are just 1 hit wonders or if there was someone really good in the middle that really made the magic happen. Because when you follow the top people they all seem to put out really bad products after their 1 success.
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
But there is no problem. Unless you have large amounts of money and expect some return on investment what does it matter?
It's their petard to be hoisted by (or not.) I mean, I have a measly $100 and I don't really care at this point. I don't think it will release but if it does I'll play it.
To me it's not milk. It doesn't spoil. I don't have some personal timeline that if they don't' get it right in x amount of years then I'll take my toys and go.
Them taking a long time doesn't diminish the product. It does put them at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to funding.
And again it depends on who their investors are and if they care or not about making their money "soon" or not. I suspect not. They are probably people with loads of cash who liked Brad and liked the ideas put forth by the game so they invested with a "wait and see" approach. If for me $100 is a pittance then for some $100k is also a pittance and they probably don't really care that much. Maybe.
Can't say, don't know the large investors.
I do think they have a huge problem with project management and that probably existed before Brad died. They need to rein that in if they hope to make it to the finish line given their funding.
But other than that I don't think it matters.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
To me it's not milk. It doesn't spoil. I don't have some personal timeline that if they don't' get it right in x amount of years then I'll take my toys and go.
Well to most people in the gaming world time does in fact make a difference. How many companies are releasing games like pong and topping the steam charts. People like playing current games in general.
When a game takes a decade or more to release, its pretty much going to be stale at release. Stale games make less money, that means less content DLC's, less bug patches.
If this game said it was going to take more than a decade to make, then they would have had a lot less backers.
There is also the possibility many people will not even be alive when these Kickstarter games release. Passing a decade may go to 2 decades. There is a real possibility a lot of backers wont even be around. Its ridiculous people are having to wait 1/6th to 1/7th of a persons lifespan for a game to be released. Especially when they lead people on to think its happening in just a couple of years.
If they are upfront about it, sure NP, but that's not happening.
This is where I think you're wrong. It's only because we know of, watch, read, see and follow the development from the very beginning that anyone cares.
You don't think Bethesda has been working on Elder Scrolls 6 for 10 years? You'd be wrong to not think that. The brilliance though is that Bethesda hasn't shown anyone anything, has not let anyone follow the progress, see the errors, the reiterations, the setbacks and restarts. So when that game releases in 2 years, after being in development for over 12, no one will say anything.
The only problem is the people who have expectations that they can not manage themselves.
To get this project even started, to give it any life, they had to go the crowdfunding route, and in doing so has opened the entire ugly mess of doing a large project and a game to the prying eyes of the super-intelligent gaming community.
But one thing is for sure, because of our superior intellect and the vastly more refined capabilities in which any of us would manage a project exquisitely better, you can bet your bottom dollar that game companies won't be as open and forthcoming with development news and information.
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
To me it's not milk. It doesn't spoil. I don't have some personal timeline that if they don't' get it right in x amount of years then I'll take my toys and go.
Well to most people in the gaming world time does in fact make a difference. How many companies are releasing games like pong and topping the steam charts. People like playing current games in general.
When a game takes a decade or more to release, its pretty much going to be stale at release. Stale games make less money, that means less content DLC's, less bug patches.
If this game said it was going to take more than a decade to make, then they would have had a lot less backers.
There is also the possibility many people will not even be alive when these Kickstarter games release. Passing a decade may go to 2 decades. There is a real possibility a lot of backers wont even be around. Its ridiculous people are having to wait 1/6th to 1/7th of a persons lifespan for a game to be released. Especially when they lead people on to think its happening in just a couple of years.
If they are upfront about it, sure NP, but that's not happening.
like pong? no. But there are retro style games being released.
There is also a loooonger way between pong and what is being shown of Pantheon than Pantheon and the current generation of mmorpg's.
Pong is a dot. and some lines.
The people who are interested in what Pantheon has to offer arent' going to be too concerned about whether it looks like Black Desert or not. They might love it to look like Black Desert ( I know I would) but it's not really an issue.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This is where I think you're wrong. It's only because we know of, watch, read, see and follow the development from the very beginning that anyone cares.
You don't think Bethesda has been working on Elder Scrolls 6 for 10 years? You'd be wrong to not think that. The brilliance though is that Bethesda hasn't shown anyone anything, has not let anyone follow the progress, see the errors, the reiterations, the setbacks and restarts. So when that game releases in 2 years, after being in development for over 12, no one will say anything.
The only problem is the people who have expectations that they can not manage themselves.
To get this project even started, to give it any life, they had to go the crowdfunding route, and in doing so has opened the entire ugly mess of doing a large project and a game to the prying eyes of the super-intelligent gaming community.
But one thing is for sure, because of our superior intellect and the vastly more refined capabilities in which any of us would manage a project exquisitely better, you can bet your bottom dollar that game companies won't be as open and forthcoming with development news and information.
Thank you and "this."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Geeky said: .....you can bet your bottom dollar that game companies won't be as open and forthcoming with development news and information.
Fine with me. STFU until you've got something.
I've always said that it would be better for them to keep things to themselves until they were further along.
How many times have game companies blown their own horns only for us to get the conciliatory article or post where they "apologize to their fans as they really wanted to deliver something special but sadly they were not able to realize the game as they would have liked and therefore they are going to stop development?"
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
To me it's not milk. It doesn't spoil. I don't have some personal timeline that if they don't' get it right in x amount of years then I'll take my toys and go.
Well to most people in the gaming world time does in fact make a difference. How many companies are releasing games like pong and topping the steam charts. People like playing current games in general.
When a game takes a decade or more to release, its pretty much going to be stale at release. Stale games make less money, that means less content DLC's, less bug patches.
If this game said it was going to take more than a decade to make, then they would have had a lot less backers.
There is also the possibility many people will not even be alive when these Kickstarter games release. Passing a decade may go to 2 decades. There is a real possibility a lot of backers wont even be around. Its ridiculous people are having to wait 1/6th to 1/7th of a persons lifespan for a game to be released. Especially when they lead people on to think its happening in just a couple of years.
If they are upfront about it, sure NP, but that's not happening.
Wait.
This is not some Single Player game, where we get to play it for a few weeks, or a few months, depending, and then put it on the shelf and move on.
This is an MMO, and for the good ones, they are WORLDS, with life spans that last decades, in fact games like UO, EQ, and WoW, are still doing quite well, and we have people on this very forum that have been invested in UO from the launch.
These are not short lived games, and I think players looking at them with that lens is why we get some much wow-clone, copy-paste MMO's, because companies are also looking at it like you are.. It needs to be pumped out fast, dirty, make it money and then be forgotten about, as it becomes old and stale.
However, for a good MMO to be made, it needs to be made with the idea, that it will grow, that it will expand, that what is put out, is the start of the product, not the end of it.
Which is something Brad talked about with EQ, that when they launched, they had so much more they wanted to put in, so much more they were working on, and planning on, but ran out of the time, and lunched with what they had done.
The game was a success, so Brad, as opposed to resting her laurels, returned to the game table, and went back to work with the dev team, and revisited all the stuff they wanted, and made the moves and plans to put it in, in the form of expansions.
See this is what separates an MMO, from all those other games, it's not "Other people" it's the idea that this was meant to be a long term game, not a game where after launch, they rest their laurels, and call it done.
With that said, I am playing DDO, been at it now a little over 12ish years now.. and it was not new when I joined it, nor was it even that popular, But the point is, a good MMO, remains fun for years, even decades, not something that should be looked at like "Well.. it needs to be the new shiny for it be worth a shit"
As far as Pantheon goes, if they launch and the game is fun to play, that is all that matters, if it took them 50 years to make it, does not mean jack shit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In my fantasy life where I'm a billionaire I'd develop a game to completion and launch it without telling anyone but maybe a 1,000 early testers. If it was a good game it would be fun to watch it spread by word of mouth.
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
To me it's not milk. It doesn't spoil. I don't have some personal timeline that if they don't' get it right in x amount of years then I'll take my toys and go.
Well to most people in the gaming world time does in fact make a difference. How many companies are releasing games like pong and topping the steam charts. People like playing current games in general.
When a game takes a decade or more to release, its pretty much going to be stale at release. Stale games make less money, that means less content DLC's, less bug patches.
If this game said it was going to take more than a decade to make, then they would have had a lot less backers.
There is also the possibility many people will not even be alive when these Kickstarter games release. Passing a decade may go to 2 decades. There is a real possibility a lot of backers wont even be around. Its ridiculous people are having to wait 1/6th to 1/7th of a persons lifespan for a game to be released. Especially when they lead people on to think its happening in just a couple of years.
If they are upfront about it, sure NP, but that's not happening.
Wait.
This is not some Single Player game, where we get to play it for a few weeks, or a few months, depending, and then put it on the shelf and move on.
This is an MMO, and for the good ones, they are WORLDS, with life spans that last decades, in fact games like UO, EQ, and WoW, are still doing quite well, and we have people on this very forum that have been invested in UO from the launch.
These are not short lived games, and I think players looking at them with that lens is why we get some much wow-clone, copy-paste MMO's, because companies are also looking at it like you are.. It needs to be pumped out fast, dirty, make it money and then be forgotten about, as it becomes old and stale.
However, for a good MMO to be made, it needs to be made with the idea, that it will grow, that it will expand, that what is put out, is the start of the product, not the end of it.
Which is something Brad talked about with EQ, that when they launched, they had so much more they wanted to put in, so much more they were working on, and planning on, but ran out of the time, and lunched with what they had done.
The game was a success, so Brad, as opposed to resting her laurels, returned to the game table, and went back to work with the dev team, and revisited all the stuff they wanted, and made the moves and plans to put it in, in the form of expansions.
See this is what separates an MMO, from all those other games, it's not "Other people" it's the idea that this was meant to be a long term game, not a game where after launch, they rest their laurels, and call it done.
With that said, I am playing DDO, been at it now a little over 12ish years now.. and it was not new when I joined it, nor was it even that popular, But the point is, a good MMO, remains fun for years, even decades, not something that should be looked at like "Well.. it needs to be the new shiny for it be worth a shit"
As far as Pantheon goes, if they launch and the game is fun to play, that is all that matters, if it took them 50 years to make it, does not mean jack shit.
I am not going to fully disagree with everything you are saying here. But you are conflating a bunch of issues.
For one, MMO's were not designed to last decades. I doubt anyone knew UO or WoW servers would be up 20+ years when they made the game. Even if some lone person predicted, it surely wasn't the general consensus at launch.
MMO's are not the only games that can last a long time, single player games like Skyrim are seeing multiple releases of the same game a decade later, so lasting a long time is not a MMO exclusive thing.
What makes MMO's different is the type of game it is. Massively Multiplayer Online, has nothing to do with longevity. Hundreds or thousands of players on a single persistent server is what makes it different. Lasting forever is irrelevant.
There have been MMO's that released sequels lineage2, EQ2 to name some.
You mention UO, but if they would have invested money into UO2 and released it like it should have been, it probably would have been the WoW of its time. Most MMO's have a fraction of the players they had at release. I can only think of 1-2 MMO's that has more people now then 2 years after its release.
So the fact above that these games have so little customers 10+ years after launch proves the vast majority of players agree that games get old over time and do not hold many peoples interest over the long haul.
To the Crux of your point, can a game come out 50 years later and still be good? Yeah IF they update everything 50 years later. In the real world the Dev teams don't have the budget to continually update the code, engine and technology for 50 years.
So while I agree that technically it only matters the quality of game at release. In the real non-theoretical world, if they are developing for 50 years the technology they are working with is going to pass them by and the product is going to feel dated. MMO's are not like wine that gets better with age.
If they are reworking combat, this revamp will very likely delay the game immensely. After all, combat includes elements of the UI, weapon balance, damaging spells, and class specifics. Making significant changes at this stage will require a lot of additional work, which I do not feel has been anticipated.
So, more delays.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
And this my friends is part of the problem…
To me it's not milk. It doesn't spoil. I don't have some personal timeline that if they don't' get it right in x amount of years then I'll take my toys and go.
Well to most people in the gaming world time does in fact make a difference. How many companies are releasing games like pong and topping the steam charts. People like playing current games in general.
When a game takes a decade or more to release, its pretty much going to be stale at release. Stale games make less money, that means less content DLC's, less bug patches.
If this game said it was going to take more than a decade to make, then they would have had a lot less backers.
There is also the possibility many people will not even be alive when these Kickstarter games release. Passing a decade may go to 2 decades. There is a real possibility a lot of backers wont even be around. Its ridiculous people are having to wait 1/6th to 1/7th of a persons lifespan for a game to be released. Especially when they lead people on to think its happening in just a couple of years.
If they are upfront about it, sure NP, but that's not happening.
Wait.
This is not some Single Player game, where we get to play it for a few weeks, or a few months, depending, and then put it on the shelf and move on.
This is an MMO, and for the good ones, they are WORLDS, with life spans that last decades, in fact games like UO, EQ, and WoW, are still doing quite well, and we have people on this very forum that have been invested in UO from the launch.
These are not short lived games, and I think players looking at them with that lens is why we get some much wow-clone, copy-paste MMO's, because companies are also looking at it like you are.. It needs to be pumped out fast, dirty, make it money and then be forgotten about, as it becomes old and stale.
However, for a good MMO to be made, it needs to be made with the idea, that it will grow, that it will expand, that what is put out, is the start of the product, not the end of it.
Which is something Brad talked about with EQ, that when they launched, they had so much more they wanted to put in, so much more they were working on, and planning on, but ran out of the time, and lunched with what they had done.
The game was a success, so Brad, as opposed to resting her laurels, returned to the game table, and went back to work with the dev team, and revisited all the stuff they wanted, and made the moves and plans to put it in, in the form of expansions.
See this is what separates an MMO, from all those other games, it's not "Other people" it's the idea that this was meant to be a long term game, not a game where after launch, they rest their laurels, and call it done.
With that said, I am playing DDO, been at it now a little over 12ish years now.. and it was not new when I joined it, nor was it even that popular, But the point is, a good MMO, remains fun for years, even decades, not something that should be looked at like "Well.. it needs to be the new shiny for it be worth a shit"
As far as Pantheon goes, if they launch and the game is fun to play, that is all that matters, if it took them 50 years to make it, does not mean jack shit.
I am not going to fully disagree with everything you are saying here. But you are conflating a bunch of issues.
For one, MMO's were not designed to last decades. I doubt anyone knew UO or WoW servers would be up 20+ years when they made the game. Even if some lone person predicted, it surely wasn't the general consensus at launch.
MMO's are not the only games that can last a long time, single player games like Skyrim are seeing multiple releases of the same game a decade later, so lasting a long time is not a MMO exclusive thing.
What makes MMO's different is the type of game it is. Massively Multiplayer Online, has nothing to do with longevity. Hundreds or thousands of players on a single persistent server is what makes it different. Lasting forever is irrelevant.
There have been MMO's that released sequels lineage2, EQ2 to name some.
You mention UO, but if they would have invested money into UO2 and released it like it should have been, it probably would have been the WoW of its time. Most MMO's have a fraction of the players they had at release. I can only think of 1-2 MMO's that has more people now then 2 years after its release.
So the fact above that these games have so little customers 10+ years after launch proves the vast majority of players agree that games get old over time and do not hold many peoples interest over the long haul.
To the Crux of your point, can a game come out 50 years later and still be good? Yeah IF they update everything 50 years later. In the real world the Dev teams don't have the budget to continually update the code, engine and technology for 50 years.
So while I agree that technically it only matters the quality of game at release. In the real non-theoretical world, if they are developing for 50 years the technology they are working with is going to pass them by and the product is going to feel dated. MMO's are not like wine that gets better with age.
I want to add there is a certain level of expectation over how long a software development project, especially a single video game should take.
So unless someone is creating "Ready Player One" or a new Great Pyramid 50 years is far too long to finish.
The way some of these indie efforts are going it's more likely work on the Crazy Horse memorial will be completed first.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
2 things. 1 positive, 1 negative. The first, like some others mentioned, in their defense it's just another poorly written article from MMORPG.com. There is no combat overhaul. We were told there would be combat synergies between classes 3 or 4 years ago at this point. It's just another example of people who write articles for this site spreading themselves to thin and not following games they are writing about closely enough. It happens all the time here.
Second, I see multiple people making jokes about it not releasing until 2025. Unless they get a publisher there is no way in hell this releases by 2025. It will be later at the current pace. They have 1 environmental artist and they have struggled with feature creep. There is no urgency in the team. They should be cutting systems at this point to push it forward but they are constantly over thinking things and making adjustments. They aren't even in alpha yet.
Brainy said: To the Crux of your point, can a game come out 50 years later and still be good? Yeah IF they update everything 50 years later. In the real world the Dev teams don't have the budget to continually update the code, engine and technology for 50 years.
So while I agree that technically it only matters the quality of game at release. In the real non-theoretical world, if they are developing for 50 years the technology they are working with is going to pass them by and the product is going to feel dated. MMO's are not like wine that gets better with age.
MMO's have been Worlds since their inception, even as far back as games like Gemstone, where were the predecessors to the modern MMO, the idea was for players to share a vast world, and for that world to exist and grow.
It was not a complete game at launch, none of them were.... well none of the good one's at least.
The Technology might pass them by, or it might finally catch up. My wife played a horse game, where players would breed, train, show, race, horses, and even earn special horses, like Unicorns, Pegasus, Seahorses (Think the fantasy half horse half fish thing), and they would then sell and trade their horses.
This was years ago.. now I look back at that game, and I think, that game was the prime example of what Blockchain / NFP games we see coming out would have been all about.
Just like the very early VR games, most of them stumbled because the hardware was not really ready.
Also really depends on what they are developing, if they are building systems, and plans, and working on how to keep the mechanics of the game constant, you know, doing things like making sure the combat system is fluid, fun, engaging, as well as fair and balanced, as opposed to the endless level/hack/unbalanced shit we deal with today, and then once they worked out all those issues, then they added in the graphics and pretty lights, chances are, players, outside the systems being on point, would have no idea how long they were working on the game.
I mean really, lets be honest, UO (According the resident UO expert) was far beyond anything coming out today, with much deeper systems, and better overall gameplay, so much so, if they reskinned it, as it is right now, chances are players seeing it for the first time would be awe struck, and that is a game that was launched decades ago, so this idea that modern tech is somehow produces a better product does not hold up under scrutiny.
But really, again, MMO's are about longevity, always have been, that is why you don't beat MMO's the same way you can beat a single player game, like you can do with Skyrim, or PacMan, they are open ended, this has been in place since the era of text based worlds, like Gemstone, back in the 80's, that the game does not actually end, there is always more to do.
So again, really, how long a game takes to develop, is what it is. It does not make it a worse or better game, it's not like they need to pump the game out in 3 years of it will spoil.
A Good, fun game, is timeless..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
2 things. 1 positive, 1 negative. The first, like some others mentioned, in their defense it's just another poorly written article from MMORPG.com. There is no combat overhaul. We were told there would be combat synergies between classes 3 or 4 years ago at this point. It's just another example of people who write articles for this site spreading themselves to thin and not following games they are writing about closely enough. It happens all the time here.
Second, I see multiple people making jokes about it not releasing until 2025. Unless they get a publisher there is no way in hell this releases by 2025. It will be later at the current pace. They have 1 environmental artist and they have struggled with feature creep. There is no urgency in the team. They should be cutting systems at this point to push it forward but they are constantly over thinking things and making adjustments. They aren't even in alpha yet.
I don't think they'll be able to launch without a publisher. Their goals are pretty damn lofty for such a small team. I can't imagine it would be even possible for them to take on publishing their own game.
2 things. 1 positive, 1 negative. The first, like some others mentioned, in their defense it's just another poorly written article from MMORPG.com. There is no combat overhaul. We were told there would be combat synergies between classes 3 or 4 years ago at this point. It's just another example of people who write articles for this site spreading themselves to thin and not following games they are writing about closely enough. It happens all the time here.
Second, I see multiple people making jokes about it not releasing until 2025. Unless they get a publisher there is no way in hell this releases by 2025. It will be later at the current pace. They have 1 environmental artist and they have struggled with feature creep. There is no urgency in the team. They should be cutting systems at this point to push it forward but they are constantly over thinking things and making adjustments. They aren't even in alpha yet.
I don't think they'll be able to launch without a publisher. Their goals are pretty damn lofty for such a small team. I can't imagine it would be even possible for them to take on publishing their own game.
I mean...they would be able to eventually theoretically. It just might take another decade. Think project gorgon or other, similar games with tiny teams. The statement they gave us about crowd funding was they will not be able to launch in a "reasonable amount of time"....which is a very nice way to put it but we should understand what that means.
You would think at some point they will become aware of the situation and start making drastic cuts. Systems, continents etc...but it hasn't happened yet edit: mentioning continents, we still haven't even seen concept art or a hand drawn atlas of the 3rd continent. Pretty ridiculous.
I mean really, lets be honest, UO (According the resident UO expert) was far beyond anything coming out today, with much deeper systems, and better overall gameplay, so much so, if they reskinned it, as it is right now, chances are players seeing it for the first time would be awe struck, and that is a game that was launched decades ago, so this idea that modern tech is somehow produces a better product does not hold up under scrutiny.
But really, again, MMO's are about longevity, always have been, that is why you don't beat MMO's the same way you can beat a single player game, like you can do with Skyrim, or PacMan, they are open ended, this has been in place since the era of text based worlds, like Gemstone, back in the 80's, that the game does not actually end, there is always more to do.
So again, really, how long a game takes to develop, is what it is. It does not make it a worse or better game, it's not like they need to pump the game out in 3 years of it will spoil.
A Good, fun game, is timeless..
Yeah I agree UO ideas were way ahead of its time. So ideas are not dated I agree with that. Technology however is dated. In UO it was made with people dialing in with Modems that had a huge disadvantage to people with T1/T3 lines. I doubt this would fly today.
I am more talking about specifically once they pick an engine and start making graphics, the game is on a timer. So all the concept work prior to that sure that can last a long time. The graphics is where all the big dollars are spent doing all that artwork. So unless the project has an enormous budget like SC, redoing all the graphics is just not going to work well at all.
So if you take a game like Pantheon that spends a bunch of time creating zones and artwork with a dated engine, then spends 4-5 years redesigning the gameplay mechanics. This is a bad design decision.
Get all the planning of your gameplay done first and work the graphics last to stay current is the better method.
Ya, that could still happen eventually even though it isn't the plan currently. They are still holding out for a publisher to do it the "normal" way. We all hope that happens. The question is at what point does that change? It's not to the point where there is enough playable content to open it up the way PG did.
I mean really, lets be honest, UO (According the resident UO expert) was far beyond anything coming out today, with much deeper systems, and better overall gameplay, so much so, if they reskinned it, as it is right now, chances are players seeing it for the first time would be awe struck, and that is a game that was launched decades ago, so this idea that modern tech is somehow produces a better product does not hold up under scrutiny.
But really, again, MMO's are about longevity, always have been, that is why you don't beat MMO's the same way you can beat a single player game, like you can do with Skyrim, or PacMan, they are open ended, this has been in place since the era of text based worlds, like Gemstone, back in the 80's, that the game does not actually end, there is always more to do.
So again, really, how long a game takes to develop, is what it is. It does not make it a worse or better game, it's not like they need to pump the game out in 3 years of it will spoil.
A Good, fun game, is timeless..
Yeah I agree UO ideas were way ahead of its time. So ideas are not dated I agree with that. Technology however is dated. In UO it was made with people dialing in with Modems that had a huge disadvantage to people with T1/T3 lines. I doubt this would fly today.
I am more talking about specifically once they pick an engine and start making graphics, the game is on a timer. So all the concept work prior to that sure that can last a long time. The graphics is where all the big dollars are spent doing all that artwork. So unless the project has an enormous budget like SC, redoing all the graphics is just not going to work well at all.
So if you take a game like Pantheon that spends a bunch of time creating zones and artwork with a dated engine, then spends 4-5 years redesigning the gameplay mechanics. This is a bad design decision.
Get all the planning of your gameplay done first and work the graphics last to stay current is the better method.
Ok I see your point.
I mean, yes, in a lot of cases, the more invested into the graphics go, and the more realistic the attempt is, ideally, the less time you have till they become dated. I absolutely agree with you.
But, again, for some games, Like Trove for example, which was Voxel, and really, felt like something out of the 70's, but it was still cool to play and engage in, it looked old school, while still looking crisp and sharp, and I would still be playing it, if I didn't burn out on their RNG BS at end game.
But the idea is there as well, when an MMO is made, graphics need to be considered as part of the longevity of the game.
Some graphic styles are more timeless then others, Ideally the more cartoonish, the more longevity they have, just the nature of the way graphics have been advancing. For example, WoW's graphics are, no dis, or joke, but very crude and cartoonish in contrast to a game like Aion that came out 2 years later.
To use an other example, I mean for me, I liked the Beta Graphics of Crowfall, as they had that Claymation, Timeless aspect to them, that in 10 years, you could look at the game, and still think "They look Good for what they are" and that is because, Cartoonish / Claymation graphics have an upper limit to them, they can only advance so far, while still being that art style. This holds true for the more Anime games as well, they have a limit on how far they can go, while still being Anime. Same holds true for any stylized art style.
Now, for me, what happened with Crowfall, they tried to blend and smooth their original stylized art for more realism, and it looked like donkey ass. really the beta style was better, it had a crisp, Claymation feel to it, made the violence not feel as violent.. if that makes any sense, but it also worked within the world, all of it had that same feel.
But then you look at games that tried for more realism, like DDO, and put that vs something like TERA, or GW2, or BDO, and it's like.. Dammmnnn.. time was not kind to DDO.
So yes, I mean, I get what you are saying, and no joke, I don't like Pantheons graphics currently, so, if they launched next year, or last year, I would not have been thrilled by them, they are trying for BDO level hyper realism, and don't seem to have the team or talent to pull it off.
I really think they would do better to drop the cling for hyper realism, try for a more stylized artistic approach, given it's a traditional fantasy setting, they could go with some Boris Vallejo style stuff, as opposed to.. whatever it is they are doing.
Really have not been impressed with what I have seen of their graphics anyway, but, Yes, there comes a point where development should be going into the last laps, and that is when all the gray block gets taken out and pretty stuff gets put in. Was rather cool seeing Crowfall Transform from Gray to Graphics as we played beta. Still stand by that I think they overdid the texture blender.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If you want a breakdown of whether these changes are justifiably termed an "overhaul," BazgrimTV has (as usual) a better understanding of what is involved.
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Someone saying they are fixing someone's mistakes is not indicative of actually making them better. Look at NW they fix mistakes and it turns worse. This could easily be happening at VR.
What we do know is Brad released a playable popular game in a reasonable time frame. These guys haven't. So that's Brad 1-0 for me.
Maybe Brad was sitting at the top taking credit for others work, who knows. But at least he didn't completely screw EQ up either. If anyone knows the "real devs" behind EQ success then please let us know so we can follow their work history.
I have often wondered if the good games of old/new are just 1 hit wonders or if there was someone really good in the middle that really made the magic happen. Because when you follow the top people they all seem to put out really bad products after their 1 success.
What do you mean more delays? When has this game been delayed? They've put out no release date and haven't even said when they'll move to Alpha. I don't understand why folks are upset that a game which is in development, is doing what games in development do.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well to most people in the gaming world time does in fact make a difference. How many companies are releasing games like pong and topping the steam charts. People like playing current games in general.
When a game takes a decade or more to release, its pretty much going to be stale at release. Stale games make less money, that means less content DLC's, less bug patches.
If this game said it was going to take more than a decade to make, then they would have had a lot less backers.
There is also the possibility many people will not even be alive when these Kickstarter games release. Passing a decade may go to 2 decades. There is a real possibility a lot of backers wont even be around. Its ridiculous people are having to wait 1/6th to 1/7th of a persons lifespan for a game to be released. Especially when they lead people on to think its happening in just a couple of years.
If they are upfront about it, sure NP, but that's not happening.
You don't think Bethesda has been working on Elder Scrolls 6 for 10 years? You'd be wrong to not think that. The brilliance though is that Bethesda hasn't shown anyone anything, has not let anyone follow the progress, see the errors, the reiterations, the setbacks and restarts. So when that game releases in 2 years, after being in development for over 12, no one will say anything.
The only problem is the people who have expectations that they can not manage themselves.
To get this project even started, to give it any life, they had to go the crowdfunding route, and in doing so has opened the entire ugly mess of doing a large project and a game to the prying eyes of the super-intelligent gaming community.
But one thing is for sure, because of our superior intellect and the vastly more refined capabilities in which any of us would manage a project exquisitely better, you can bet your bottom dollar that game companies won't be as open and forthcoming with development news and information.
There is also a loooonger way between pong and what is being shown of Pantheon than Pantheon and the current generation of mmorpg's.
Pong is a dot. and some lines.
The people who are interested in what Pantheon has to offer arent' going to be too concerned about whether it looks like Black Desert or not. They might love it to look like Black Desert ( I know I would) but it's not really an issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
How many times have game companies blown their own horns only for us to get the conciliatory article or post where they "apologize to their fans as they really wanted to deliver something special but sadly they were not able to realize the game as they would have liked and therefore they are going to stop development?"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This is not some Single Player game, where we get to play it for a few weeks, or a few months, depending, and then put it on the shelf and move on.
This is an MMO, and for the good ones, they are WORLDS, with life spans that last decades, in fact games like UO, EQ, and WoW, are still doing quite well, and we have people on this very forum that have been invested in UO from the launch.
These are not short lived games, and I think players looking at them with that lens is why we get some much wow-clone, copy-paste MMO's, because companies are also looking at it like you are.. It needs to be pumped out fast, dirty, make it money and then be forgotten about, as it becomes old and stale.
However, for a good MMO to be made, it needs to be made with the idea, that it will grow, that it will expand, that what is put out, is the start of the product, not the end of it.
Which is something Brad talked about with EQ, that when they launched, they had so much more they wanted to put in, so much more they were working on, and planning on, but ran out of the time, and lunched with what they had done.
The game was a success, so Brad, as opposed to resting her laurels, returned to the game table, and went back to work with the dev team, and revisited all the stuff they wanted, and made the moves and plans to put it in, in the form of expansions.
See this is what separates an MMO, from all those other games, it's not "Other people" it's the idea that this was meant to be a long term game, not a game where after launch, they rest their laurels, and call it done.
With that said, I am playing DDO, been at it now a little over 12ish years now.. and it was not new when I joined it, nor was it even that popular, But the point is, a good MMO, remains fun for years, even decades, not something that should be looked at like "Well.. it needs to be the new shiny for it be worth a shit"
As far as Pantheon goes, if they launch and the game is fun to play, that is all that matters, if it took them 50 years to make it, does not mean jack shit.
For one, MMO's were not designed to last decades. I doubt anyone knew UO or WoW servers would be up 20+ years when they made the game. Even if some lone person predicted, it surely wasn't the general consensus at launch.
MMO's are not the only games that can last a long time, single player games like Skyrim are seeing multiple releases of the same game a decade later, so lasting a long time is not a MMO exclusive thing.
What makes MMO's different is the type of game it is. Massively Multiplayer Online, has nothing to do with longevity. Hundreds or thousands of players on a single persistent server is what makes it different. Lasting forever is irrelevant.
There have been MMO's that released sequels lineage2, EQ2 to name some.
You mention UO, but if they would have invested money into UO2 and released it like it should have been, it probably would have been the WoW of its time. Most MMO's have a fraction of the players they had at release. I can only think of 1-2 MMO's that has more people now then 2 years after its release.
So the fact above that these games have so little customers 10+ years after launch proves the vast majority of players agree that games get old over time and do not hold many peoples interest over the long haul.
To the Crux of your point, can a game come out 50 years later and still be good? Yeah IF they update everything 50 years later. In the real world the Dev teams don't have the budget to continually update the code, engine and technology for 50 years.
So while I agree that technically it only matters the quality of game at release. In the real non-theoretical world, if they are developing for 50 years the technology they are working with is going to pass them by and the product is going to feel dated. MMO's are not like wine that gets better with age.
So unless someone is creating "Ready Player One" or a new Great Pyramid 50 years is far too long to finish.
The way some of these indie efforts are going it's more likely work on the Crazy Horse memorial will be completed first.
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The first, like some others mentioned, in their defense it's just another poorly written article from MMORPG.com. There is no combat overhaul. We were told there would be combat synergies between classes 3 or 4 years ago at this point. It's just another example of people who write articles for this site spreading themselves to thin and not following games they are writing about closely enough. It happens all the time here.
Second, I see multiple people making jokes about it not releasing until 2025.
Unless they get a publisher there is no way in hell this releases by 2025. It will be later at the current pace.
They have 1 environmental artist and they have struggled with feature creep. There is no urgency in the team. They should be cutting systems at this point to push it forward but they are constantly over thinking things and making adjustments. They aren't even in alpha yet.
It was not a complete game at launch, none of them were.... well none of the good one's at least.
The Technology might pass them by, or it might finally catch up. My wife played a horse game, where players would breed, train, show, race, horses, and even earn special horses, like Unicorns, Pegasus, Seahorses (Think the fantasy half horse half fish thing), and they would then sell and trade their horses.
This was years ago.. now I look back at that game, and I think, that game was the prime example of what Blockchain / NFP games we see coming out would have been all about.
Just like the very early VR games, most of them stumbled because the hardware was not really ready.
Also really depends on what they are developing, if they are building systems, and plans, and working on how to keep the mechanics of the game constant, you know, doing things like making sure the combat system is fluid, fun, engaging, as well as fair and balanced, as opposed to the endless level/hack/unbalanced shit we deal with today, and then once they worked out all those issues, then they added in the graphics and pretty lights, chances are, players, outside the systems being on point, would have no idea how long they were working on the game.
I mean really, lets be honest, UO (According the resident UO expert) was far beyond anything coming out today, with much deeper systems, and better overall gameplay, so much so, if they reskinned it, as it is right now, chances are players seeing it for the first time would be awe struck, and that is a game that was launched decades ago, so this idea that modern tech is somehow produces a better product does not hold up under scrutiny.
But really, again, MMO's are about longevity, always have been, that is why you don't beat MMO's the same way you can beat a single player game, like you can do with Skyrim, or PacMan, they are open ended, this has been in place since the era of text based worlds, like Gemstone, back in the 80's, that the game does not actually end, there is always more to do.
So again, really, how long a game takes to develop, is what it is. It does not make it a worse or better game, it's not like they need to pump the game out in 3 years of it will spoil.
A Good, fun game, is timeless..
I don't think they'll be able to launch without a publisher. Their goals are pretty damn lofty for such a small team. I can't imagine it would be even possible for them to take on publishing their own game.
The statement they gave us about crowd funding was they will not be able to launch in a "reasonable amount of time"....which is a very nice way to put it but we should understand what that means.
You would think at some point they will become aware of the situation and start making drastic cuts. Systems, continents etc...but it hasn't happened yet
edit: mentioning continents, we still haven't even seen concept art or a hand drawn atlas of the 3rd continent. Pretty ridiculous.
Yeah I agree UO ideas were way ahead of its time. So ideas are not dated I agree with that. Technology however is dated. In UO it was made with people dialing in with Modems that had a huge disadvantage to people with T1/T3 lines. I doubt this would fly today.
I am more talking about specifically once they pick an engine and start making graphics, the game is on a timer. So all the concept work prior to that sure that can last a long time. The graphics is where all the big dollars are spent doing all that artwork. So unless the project has an enormous budget like SC, redoing all the graphics is just not going to work well at all.
So if you take a game like Pantheon that spends a bunch of time creating zones and artwork with a dated engine, then spends 4-5 years redesigning the gameplay mechanics. This is a bad design decision.
Get all the planning of your gameplay done first and work the graphics last to stay current is the better method.
I mean, yes, in a lot of cases, the more invested into the graphics go, and the more realistic the attempt is, ideally, the less time you have till they become dated. I absolutely agree with you.
But, again, for some games, Like Trove for example, which was Voxel, and really, felt like something out of the 70's, but it was still cool to play and engage in, it looked old school, while still looking crisp and sharp, and I would still be playing it, if I didn't burn out on their RNG BS at end game.
But the idea is there as well, when an MMO is made, graphics need to be considered as part of the longevity of the game.
Some graphic styles are more timeless then others, Ideally the more cartoonish, the more longevity they have, just the nature of the way graphics have been advancing. For example, WoW's graphics are, no dis, or joke, but very crude and cartoonish in contrast to a game like Aion that came out 2 years later.
To use an other example, I mean for me, I liked the Beta Graphics of Crowfall, as they had that Claymation, Timeless aspect to them, that in 10 years, you could look at the game, and still think "They look Good for what they are" and that is because, Cartoonish / Claymation graphics have an upper limit to them, they can only advance so far, while still being that art style. This holds true for the more Anime games as well, they have a limit on how far they can go, while still being Anime. Same holds true for any stylized art style.
Now, for me, what happened with Crowfall, they tried to blend and smooth their original stylized art for more realism, and it looked like donkey ass. really the beta style was better, it had a crisp, Claymation feel to it, made the violence not feel as violent.. if that makes any sense, but it also worked within the world, all of it had that same feel.
But then you look at games that tried for more realism, like DDO, and put that vs something like TERA, or GW2, or BDO, and it's like.. Dammmnnn.. time was not kind to DDO.
So yes, I mean, I get what you are saying, and no joke, I don't like Pantheons graphics currently, so, if they launched next year, or last year, I would not have been thrilled by them, they are trying for BDO level hyper realism, and don't seem to have the team or talent to pull it off.
I really think they would do better to drop the cling for hyper realism, try for a more stylized artistic approach, given it's a traditional fantasy setting, they could go with some Boris Vallejo style stuff, as opposed to.. whatever it is they are doing.
Really have not been impressed with what I have seen of their graphics anyway, but, Yes, there comes a point where development should be going into the last laps, and that is when all the gray block gets taken out and pretty stuff gets put in. Was rather cool seeing Crowfall Transform from Gray to Graphics as we played beta. Still stand by that I think they overdid the texture blender.