Tolkien didn't do characters well. He was much more in his element with things like the Silmarillion.
Yup. He wasn't much of a story teller even though he created a wonderful world and told stories about it. Peter Jackson OTOH, is a master visual story teller.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
To piss off more people I think Harry Potter is garbage and Lord of the Rings is just a children's story stop trying to make it anything more.
HP isn't garbage to me but another that went way too serious that didn't add anything to the quality of the overall narrative. I'm less interested in rewatching the series because of that.
LotR is a children's story and it's a good one. I agree with @Iselin that the movies are better at telling the story than the books and with @Kyleran that Helms Deep is epic despite pissing off lore purists.
LotR is also a great study in world building and linquistics. I wish Tolkein would have partnered with Lewis to write those books because CS Lewis tells a great story. Tolkein builds rich deep worlds complete with functioning languages and a consistent history. Both of those authors might have benefitted from collaboration on their most notable series.
Regarding HP, I haven't seen the movies, only read the books. It is one of those meaningless one liner spins that span out of control. It has no substance, dead shallow, and horridly predictable. You would know how it ends from the beginning. And even the tragic deaths are completely meaningless. There are no lessons to be learned. No meaning being conveyed. Nothing happens to you when you finish each book. The author has redressed cliches, although one might argue that that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it is when you yourself have no idea why cliches have become cliches in the first place. People love a good underdog story, but not when your underdog triumphing at every step. Even when Harry leaves school is still a triumph, in my my opinion maybe his greatest accomplishment.
I never said Lord of the Rings is bad. I said it is a children's story. A very good one at that. When it comes down to fantasy, you can't really compare world building cross genres. Yes, Lord of the Rings stands tall compared to other fantasy children's stories. But its reach ends right there. My opinion is unpopular because people make it to be a piece of extraordinary literature. It isn't. It is good when you are judging it through a very narrow criteria.
Movies are very great but I still think the books are better.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Stephen King is horribly, horribly overrated as a writer of both horror AND fantasy. His fellow writer Clive Barkers’ Weaveworld for instance wipes the floor with anything King has ever done.
I also believe Dune is the greatest SF ever written and isn’t a single word too long.
Ohh, and The Hobbit is a pretty bad book.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Stephen King is horribly, horribly overrated as a writer of both horror AND fantasy. His fellow writer Clive Barkers’ Weaveworld for instance wipes the floor with anything King has ever done.
I also believe Dune is the greatest SF ever written and isn’t a single word too long.
Ohh, and The Hobbit is a pretty bad book.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
So when I can move in with you?
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
To piss off more people I think Harry Potter is garbage and Lord of the Rings is just a children's story stop trying to make it anything more.
Burn him I say Burn him!
I am not sure the OP thought "unpopular SF/Fantasy options" meant we were going to be throwing whole books, series and authors into the dustbin. Maybe that's just the MMORPG.com way.
I have to come out fighting here, having only yesterday reminded posters of keeping some Xmas cheer in their posts...oh well.
Aeander - Dwarves and Giants are storied races and done right have great lore and are a joy to play. Are they overdone in MMOs? Well Dwarves are but that's because they are so good.
Torval - Where do I start?
Dune is possibly the best SF ever written. Was the series too long? Well when it got to other writers continuing it, yes it was.
Star Wars is possibly the the best Sf/fantasy on film. The first three films were the best, you don't surprise me that you think the later ones were better but I do think the ones you mentioned are good.
Final Fantasy, fair enough they milk the brand but that can be said for so many great brands.
You seem to have fallen in to that politically correct and irrational hobby of calling out people from the past for not holding the attitudes we do today. All the authors you mentioned were greats in their field. Bradbury was underrated but not as much as you seem to suggest? Niven was as great in my eyes and possibly underrated himself. I found nothing dry etc about the others.
Firefly - we surely cannot tell what the reboot will do until it is out?
Dark Sun - certainly gave DnD a needed kick up the backside, alas I have never played it only heard people talking about it.
Okay, in retrospect I agree I was too harsh on Asimov.
Heinlein is actually kind of a perv. It has nothing to do with being politically correct. Have you read Friday and several of his other novels where he injects sex in a way that adds nothing to the story itself? I feel like some Sci-fi and fantasy writers of the sixties, seventies, and early eighties had what I think is the Anais Nin - Henry Miller syndrome. They wanted to break social taboos and genre tropes about including sex so that was big motivation. The excessively graphic and detailed nature of the encounters was there to push the envelope not flesh out the narrative so to speak. (see what I did there? flesh out... )
It isn't that Heinlein doesn't or wouldn't have incorporated modern social issues. He certainly would have in my opinion. But that doesn't excuse anything. We weren't living in a dark age then. That sci-fi era was actually an era of thinking and he could have easily seen where the flaws lay in those choices.
I intentionally left Piers Anthony out of that criticism, even though he's a much worse offender, just because I didn't want it to be about a "then vs now" political statement. Heinlein was a better writer and had better stories to tell compared to the Xanth candy that Anthony produced.
I think blaming Asimov for being dry was wrong and I missed the criticism I wanted to express. It stems from his main foundation series (which I do find exceedingly dry) being so popular that it overshadows his better works. Pebble in the Sky is one of my all time favorite science fiction novels. The Galactic Empire series, Lucky Starr, and the Elijah Baley Robot series (Caves of Steel, et al) are all so superior in my opinion because they focus on characters, personal dynamics, and have a heavy foundation of hard science fiction beneath them. Some of them take place in the foundation universe but unlike that seminal series have a much richer texture. His boring wordy foundation stuff dominates and that irks me.
Clarke is a bit dry. He was an engineer and scientist first and a novelist second. His writing, even at its most fantastic, feels too bound to pragmatic realities.
Sure through our current
day eyes some authors of that day might seem to have objectionable books.
Michael Moorcock and many others intentionally tried to challenge what they saw
as social taboos, but ask yourself this. Did you find it objectionable when reading
them back in the day and if you did as much as you do today? That's why I see
this as politically correct revisionist thinking. But that said I would not
read some of those books again, if posters want to avoid this stuff just go to
wikipedia, it lists the books to avoid.
You have teased out something I have long agreed with;
our favourite authors are not always all round great writers. I include Tolkien
in that, but the kernel there is to be a writer with no flaws is nearly unheard
of. Sure we may know an author who does dialogue better or metaplot or
whatever, they are still the greats regardless. Also I think some of this may
be down to the flavour of SF and fantasy we prefer so if you like hard SF
Clarke is more your man, high concept Bradbury might be more for you and epic
SF, well maybe Herbert is the one for you.
Female toons are dressed appropriate for battle. The need to be light and agile because they aren't as strong as men.
This is interesting. But I am sure you can wear more than a bra and still be more agile.
For instance viking shield maidens weren't exactly bikini models. And they fucked the French in a way that the French did not approve.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Most famous as defenders of homeland or home city were Mu Lan Hua and Guan Niang Xun. Hua is the earliest legendary woman warrior in Chinese culture and was recently verified by various scholars as a real woman living during the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.- A.D. 220).
Another example, which was not a singular event, but followed again and again in history. Then there is also Joan D'Arc. I am sure there are countless of other examples around the globe throughout history.
I mean, it makes sense. Men used to work in offices. When women decided to get in the game, they copied a lot of what men used to do. To some extent, the way they dressed, too. This is typical behaviour when you'd want to get accepted in a group. Throughout history, it must have been the same. No woman was ever about to walked into the battlefield inhaling the rampant testosterone and thinking "Oh the low-cut, that would teach them bastards a lesson they'd never forget!".
So while bcbully is correct about appropriate attire for agility, but I bet you character designers are just going for BOOBS and ASS when they are modeling, and not functionality.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I never said Lord of the Rings is bad. I said it is a children's story.
So what's adult stories to you? Porn?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I never said Lord of the Rings is bad. I said it is a children's story.
So what's adult stories to you? Porn?
In case you really want to know; Tolkien created these stories, for his children, literally. Now, it's not about that you can't or you should not enjoy it as an adult. Same way that Steppenwolf was written for middle-aged people facing a midlife crisis, but to the author's own surprise it became popular among youngsters instead. But it is what it is, and it matters to be treated as such, well it matters to me at least.
For instance, Isaac Asimov, in general, is for teenagers. Arthur C. Clark, is for grown ups. Again, same stuff I said above applies to both.
I'm going to make a few examples; Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Gogol, Bolgakov, Tolstoy, Joyce, Hesse, Faulkner, Hemingway, Poe, Twain, Dickens, Kafka, Hedayat, Marquez, Hugo, etc. are write the "adult" type of stories that I enjoy.
Twain has written stories for children too. I see them as literature masterpieces.
I have read Lord of the Rings in 3 languages. I might like it more than many people who would attack me because of my opinion. But the amount of you or I liking something doesn't have any effect on the said thing at all. It is what it is.
In case you are joking; LOL
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I passed this thread up the past few times I visited an now there are 4 more pages (5 pages in all) to peruse. Sorry I skipped this one
I like my food on my plate "separated," like the meat apart from the salad or fruit. I like my Fantasy separated from Science Fiction. Few times have I found enjoyment in a Steam Punk world. Of course there are exceptions where an author or a game may marry sci-fi and fantasy well, but it is rare for me.
Number One unpopular opinion is: Tropes are NOT bad, in and of themselves.
Number two for me is: General: World building and lore is the most important part of any novel or game, for me. This trumps story 1000. Without the backbone of lore and/or world, story falls down.
Sci-Fi specific:
Why are most "aliens" bi-pedals with lumpy heads? I realize the limitations of "real technology" and most stories are now written for "movie adaptations", so that consideration is in the forefront. I truly enjoy aliens with "other needs" like environmental suits to survive in an oxygen rich atmosphere.
Sci-Fi needs to marry space and planets much better. That requires about 10,000x more work, but maybe there is a compromise
Fantasy specific:
I guess I grew up with Elves and Dwarves (along with other races/species), so I feel no "hatred" of them. More important to me the lore of the world as to why these races/species exist.
Along with this is: Fantasy novels need maps. I want to reference the spaces where the characters are traveling.
Some responses to other posts.
BlueTurtle: With your collection of "awesomes", I wonder how "controversial" your Star Wars opinion is LOL For me, the original 3 movies were good for me. Not the "end-all, be-all" of all film making ever, but I enjoyed them I do agree the IP as a whole has gone in the shitter.
Torval: "The number of pages" is not a good indicator for me. I happen to agree with Dune and A Song of Ice and Fire. For me it boils down to what interests, personally. I don't care what people eat or wear in fantasy novels. Merely mentioning these items is enough for me. I thoroughly enjoyed a book by Dorothy Hearst called Promise of the Wolves. I was from a wolf's perspective, so it's "economically written", like "We hunted. We Ate. And traveled." Nice and precise. I also enjoy the intricacies of engineering
Camel: That is a great point about judging books, movies, and games
Now, on to the next 4 pages
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I like the new Star Wars films (with criticisms of course)
Don't like any of the Gothic games
Castle design in Fantasy games don't take into account fantasy warfare or monsters.
I am enjoying the Wheel of Time Amazon series though I have strong criticisms about some of their decisions. Same with the Witcher on Netflix.
Don't really like Babylon 5 or Deep Space 9. I can watch them but would never do so on my own.
Most tabletop role playing games that I have tried are too wrapped up in minutiae and get very boring because of it.
Is the Wheel of Time/Witcher opinion unpopular? Both franchises are getting good ratings and are generally well received.
Wheel of Time oozes respect for its novels. The people on board clearly care, and clearly want to make a good series. If you want to see a bad adaptation, look at the Shanaynay Chronicles.
Sorry if this talked about later...
Wheel of Time crash has totally missed the boat on the novels. They neither love nor respect the books. I suggest reading them before echoing such drivel
If you've watched the series, I ask who you think the "hero" of the series is. If it's not Morgaine, I'd be surprised
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I like the new Star Wars films (with criticisms of course)
Don't like any of the Gothic games
Castle design in Fantasy games don't take into account fantasy warfare or monsters.
I am enjoying the Wheel of Time Amazon series though I have strong criticisms about some of their decisions. Same with the Witcher on Netflix.
Don't really like Babylon 5 or Deep Space 9. I can watch them but would never do so on my own.
Most tabletop role playing games that I have tried are too wrapped up in minutiae and get very boring because of it.
Is the Wheel of Time/Witcher opinion unpopular? Both franchises are getting good ratings and are generally well received.
Wheel of Time oozes respect for its novels. The people on board clearly care, and clearly want to make a good series. If you want to see a bad adaptation, look at the Shanaynay Chronicles.
Sorry if this talked about later...
Wheel of Time crash has totally missed the boat on the novels. They neither love nor respect the books. I suggest reading them before echoing such drivel
If you've watched the series, I ask who you think the "hero" of the series is. If it's not Morgaine, I'd be surprised
Just like the Seeker of Truth series that was cancelled a few years back, designed for a teenage demographic when the majority of readers are now thirty five or forty plus years old.
I was hoping Wheel of Time would take a different, more mature approach. Unfortunately, I was mistaken.
I feel sorry for Lucas, Jackson, Abrams, et al. They are trapped and cursed by trying to tell an intense dramatic story within a limited visual spectrum. They make visual choices that contradict internal logic. Based on their skillsets, talented as they are, they focus on exciting action that ends up looking ridiculous to me.
Few shows convey the reality of violence and combat. Even Kurosawa misses the mark (but not by as much as most). Too many minutes of film time are wasted on fantastic fight choreography and epic battles. I use the word fantastic to convey both that they are well done and unbelievable.
I feel that if movies spent more time grounding themselves and less time on those fantastic fight scenes they could do the story and the characters a better service. These great directors ruin these great stories with the directors' creative, imaginative vision.
Comments
Lynch eventually disavowed his Dune. I do as well.
I liked the Witcher iterations, but everything's not for everybody. The books have a very...slavic approach and humour. Often fairly Grimm.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I never said Lord of the Rings is bad. I said it is a children's story. A very good one at that. When it comes down to fantasy, you can't really compare world building cross genres. Yes, Lord of the Rings stands tall compared to other fantasy children's stories. But its reach ends right there. My opinion is unpopular because people make it to be a piece of extraordinary literature. It isn't. It is good when you are judging it through a very narrow criteria.
Movies are very great but I still think the books are better.
I also believe Dune is the greatest SF ever written and isn’t a single word too long.
Ohh, and The Hobbit is a pretty bad book.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I am not sure the OP thought "unpopular SF/Fantasy options" meant we were going to be throwing whole books, series and authors into the dustbin. Maybe that's just the MMORPG.com way.
Sure through our current day eyes some authors of that day might seem to have objectionable books. Michael Moorcock and many others intentionally tried to challenge what they saw as social taboos, but ask yourself this. Did you find it objectionable when reading them back in the day and if you did as much as you do today? That's why I see this as politically correct revisionist thinking. But that said I would not read some of those books again, if posters want to avoid this stuff just go to wikipedia, it lists the books to avoid.
You have teased out something I have long agreed with; our favourite authors are not always all round great writers. I include Tolkien in that, but the kernel there is to be a writer with no flaws is nearly unheard of. Sure we may know an author who does dialogue better or metaplot or whatever, they are still the greats regardless. Also I think some of this may be down to the flavour of SF and fantasy we prefer so if you like hard SF Clarke is more your man, high concept Bradbury might be more for you and epic SF, well maybe Herbert is the one for you.
For instance viking shield maidens weren't exactly bikini models. And they fucked the French in a way that the French did not approve.
"bcbully"'s opinion is not unpopular... it's just stupid, based on non realistic video games instead of reality.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Another example, which was not a singular event, but followed again and again in history. Then there is also Joan D'Arc. I am sure there are countless of other examples around the globe throughout history.
I mean, it makes sense. Men used to work in offices. When women decided to get in the game, they copied a lot of what men used to do. To some extent, the way they dressed, too. This is typical behaviour when you'd want to get accepted in a group. Throughout history, it must have been the same. No woman was ever about to walked into the battlefield inhaling the rampant testosterone and thinking "Oh the low-cut, that would teach them bastards a lesson they'd never forget!".
So while bcbully is correct about appropriate attire for agility, but I bet you character designers are just going for BOOBS and ASS when they are modeling, and not functionality.
There are quite a few occurrences of where Mr Bully wasn't very smart in his beliefs, so I have my own doubts on that...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The hobbit trilogy was a children's story.
Happy New Year .. Jean Luc Picard
Tolkien created these stories, for his children, literally. Now, it's not about that you can't or you should not enjoy it as an adult. Same way that Steppenwolf was written for middle-aged people facing a midlife crisis, but to the author's own surprise it became popular among youngsters instead. But it is what it is, and it matters to be treated as such, well it matters to me at least.
For instance, Isaac Asimov, in general, is for teenagers. Arthur C. Clark, is for grown ups. Again, same stuff I said above applies to both.
I'm going to make a few examples; Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Gogol, Bolgakov, Tolstoy, Joyce, Hesse, Faulkner, Hemingway, Poe, Twain, Dickens, Kafka, Hedayat, Marquez, Hugo, etc. are write the "adult" type of stories that I enjoy.
Twain has written stories for children too. I see them as literature masterpieces.
I have read Lord of the Rings in 3 languages. I might like it more than many people who would attack me because of my opinion. But the amount of you or I liking something doesn't have any effect on the said thing at all. It is what it is.
In case you are joking;
LOL
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Just like the Seeker of Truth series that was cancelled a few years back, designed for a teenage demographic when the majority of readers are now thirty five or forty plus years old.
I was hoping Wheel of Time would take a different, more mature approach. Unfortunately, I was mistaken.
Few shows convey the reality of violence and combat. Even Kurosawa misses the mark (but not by as much as most). Too many minutes of film time are wasted on fantastic fight choreography and epic battles. I use the word fantastic to convey both that they are well done and unbelievable.
I feel that if movies spent more time grounding themselves and less time on those fantastic fight scenes they could do the story and the characters a better service. These great directors ruin these great stories with the directors' creative, imaginative vision.
TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO,