Originally posted by Flatfingers However, an important point we can already see is that only AAA games can count on always having enough players simultaneously active to make a player-run economy work. If you're making an indie game, you're pretty much stuck with having to have NPC vendors because you can't count on having enough crafters and sellers to satisfy the economic desires of the majority of your players.
Adellion (indie)
Start: NPC owned shops
Transition: Players take over
Future: Players can hire NPCs as clercs with instructions, but it is the player's purse (and the NPC will require payment).
I'd call that player driven, the NPC becomes a communication device.
Oh, and you were completely off-base... I mean: NPCs don't create or sell goods or services ... duh?
Nah, I agree. But to me, the main thing is that NPCs are not independently producing or purchasing goods/services. They may well take care of the transaction.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I liked Damian's ideas. I'd like to see a really simple system for my sword to break in more games but not to the point where it puts me in the poor house(WoW *caugh*caugh*)
I also don't mind crafter being able to make a good items but as a casual I don't want to have to spend an hour in the marketplace looking for a half-deccent sword either. If I just want to pick up a sword that works for a flat rate price, it should work. That's why there are vender NPCs. Also, maybe instead of raders getting ub3r l00t, they could get ub3r materials to improve things craters make. That way radiers and crafters are important. Personaly I don't like '+1' swords, it's just stupid. Unless your using/cheap/rip-off crappy sword, then your sword is going to be about as good as everyone else unless you're comparing a hortori hanzo to something you made in your basement(a newb who just started crafting to a person whose been crafting since release) I think crafting items should be specialised. You want to go into the volcano dungeon? Well your going to need to get armor from the crafters and enhcnaters so it doesn't melt and seer your flesh! Having trouble with that Demonic Wolf Boss you're getting paid to kill? I heard so and so makes a 'Sword of Wolf's Bane'.
I like the idea of NPCs not buying everything you see them too. Trying to find someone who needs wolf's teeth seems almost as fun as bashing them from the wolf. In fact, if you were an animals lover who was against smashing the wolf, you could simply by the teeth and work as a inter-city trader. It would be a nice break from combat.
Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
Originally posted by Distortion0 I liked Damian's ideas. I'd like to see a really simple system for my sword to break in more games but not to the point where it puts me in the poor house(WoW *caugh*caugh*) I also don't mind crafter being able to make a good items but as a casual I don't want to have to spend an hour in the marketplace looking for a half-deccent sword either. If I just want to pick up a sword that works for a flat rate price, it should work. That's why there are vender NPCs. Also, maybe instead of raders getting ub3r l00t, they could get ub3r materials to improve things craters make. That way radiers and crafters are important. Personaly I don't like '+1' swords, it's just stupid. Unless your using/cheap/rip-off crappy sword, then your sword is going to be about as good as everyone else unless you're comparing a hortori hanzo to something you made in your basement(a newb who just started crafting to a person whose been crafting since release) I think crafting items should be specialised. You want to go into the volcano dungeon? Well your going to need to get armor from the crafters and enhcnaters so it doesn't melt and seer your flesh! Having trouble with that Demonic Wolf Boss you're getting paid to kill? I heard so and so makes a 'Sword of Wolf's Bane'. I like the idea of NPCs not buying everything you see them too. Trying to find someone who needs wolf's teeth seems almost as fun as bashing them from the wolf. In fact, if you were an animals lover who was against smashing the wolf, you could simply by the teeth and work as a inter-city trader. It would be a nice break from combat. Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
i'll just use pre-cu swg as a quick example. all the real good stuff was crafted. they had a multi-planet marketplace. you could put items for auction or with a buyout (if memory serves). now they also had where you could have the marketplace search all the player vendors. so you could normally find whatever you wanted a lot cheaper, if you were willing to travel a little (or happened to be in the right locale).
i've noticed that crafter driven economies seem to have a whole lot LESS inflation than drop-driven economies.
one poster in another thread mentions that the market in wow is flooded with items and complains about the high prices. well, if the market is flooded, shouldn't the price drop? but wait, wow has no item decay or item loss, you buy an item once and it's yours for ever. add into this a myriad of third world gold farmers... yeah.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Distortion0 Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so.
Bill, crafter
Is wealthy, pays guards (soldiers) and keeps them equipped
John, crafter
Is wealthy, refuses to waste money on military support / protection
Which one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him.
Billyville
Maintains a modest army to protect itself from raiders
Johnstown
Has a very strong economy because they don't waste money on military
Billyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community).
Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual.
With no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Player Crafter Items were viable and there was item loss if you were killed and looted. Simple as that. The Magic Weapons gave a slight edge but you could lose them so they had to be replaced either with player crafted items or you had to loot them again. They were not UBER too. It had housing with the possibility of vendor setup. UO had the best player economy i've ever tested. SWG was ok for awhile also. These other games with uber loot are a joke.
Originally posted by wjrasmussen Originally posted by Minsc The freaking tutorial tells you how to use the market by having you actually buy something off of it.
Well, that wouldn't be him using it and it sounds like a forced game mechanic.
doing the tutorial is optional. buying something off the market is part of the tutorial quests. aside from that, to add to what someone else stated - in order to learn new skills, buy new ships, get the exact ship upgrades you want, OR to get rid of any of your loot, you have to use the market.
it's possible all he did was fly in a ship, never dock, get a cargohold full of junk and have no idea how to get rid of it, until he ventured into a low security sector, got podded, and quit - less than an hour after starting. anything is possible. but any scenario unlike that one, well, he either doesn't know what the market is, or he's lying.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Everything made by players (furnitures, cities, armor, weapon, gear, vehicles, spaceships, animals (tamed trained and named)).
No vendors to sell items to. All sales went between players. Now that is what I call a good player run economy.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Originally posted by DuraheLL WoW being player run with the economy??? All I say is SWG pre-CU. Everything made by players (furnitures, cities, armor, weapon, gear, vehicles, spaceships, animals (tamed trained and named)). No vendors to sell items to. All sales went between players. Now that is what I call a good player run economy.
I think the only problem that the old economy in SWG had was inflation, and even that wasn't near as bad as in WoW or FFXI.
I think the only problem that the old economy in SWG had was inflation, and even that wasn't near as bad as in WoW or FFXI.
True that. But I really never saw a true inflation problem. The crafters sure must have had infinite amounts of money. When we look where the source of where money entered the system and where money left the system the cuve was very unbalanced.
That could have a fix for sure. Tickets, house fees, repairs almost cost nothing. These could slowly increase when the economical circles advanced. There could be lesser missions available, like 30 available per day. Or some othe way of solving the payouts from the missions.
Personaly I had no crafter which ment I could affort basic to advanced stuff. 10 mill armor pieces and even more expensive items? No chance. I came up to 10 mill in cash at the most and then I worked pretty hard as a Ranger gathering 100'ds of K's of hides and so on. Though I never took more than 10 CPU for anything I gathered. Got pretty famous for being so kind with the prices. I felt that was a good price
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Originally posted by Minsc I think the only problem that the old economy in SWG had was inflation, and even that wasn't near as bad as in WoW or FFXI.
True that. But I really never saw a true inflation problem. The crafters sure must have had infinite amounts of money. When we look where the source of where money entered the system and where money left the system the cuve was very unbalanced.
That could have a fix for sure. Tickets, house fees, repairs almost cost nothing. These could slowly increase when the economical circles advanced. There could be lesser missions available, like 30 available per day. Or some othe way of solving the payouts from the missions.
Personaly I had no crafter which ment I could affort basic to advanced stuff. 10 mill armor pieces and even more expensive items? No chance. I came up to 10 mill in cash at the most and then I worked pretty hard as a Ranger gathering 100'ds of K's of hides and so on. Though I never took more than 10 CPU for anything I gathered. Got pretty famous for being so kind with the prices. I felt that was a good price
Yeah that was definitely one of the problems with SWG's economy, one group of classes were the big producers and another were strictly consumers, so the economy ended up getting somewhat lopsided towards one group. The problem with the money sinks is that it effects everyone equally, so while the crafters costs would go up, so would the non-crafters, which would hurt them more. Also that is really dev interference so it kinda takes away control from the players. Ideally the economy should be self ballancing over the long term, something that EVE's market has achieved and why I consider it the best example of a player-run economy.
Originally posted by Distortion0 Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
The point of playing a swordsman is to get and use a sword, the point of playing a crafter is to make and sell a sword. Just as a swordsman without a sword cannot play a crafter that isn’t doesn’t sell their products they cannot play. This means there will never be a case where the crafter does not want to sell their wares. Rather then the crafter not wanting to sell you his wears the likely issue is that the sword is worth more then you are willing to pay.
In a properly set up marketplace with options to both ask and bid on items, the market is setting the price on the sword not the player. If the price of the sword is high it’s because the time and difficulty involved in their production is so great that not very many people want to make them and therefore there are very few of them available. Since there are not enough to go around and other people are willing and able to pay more for them then you are you don’t get one.
While this can be a problem for the game it is not a symptom of the economy not working properly, rather it’s a symptom of sword making not being attractive enough for people to make enough of them to go around. The two easiest solutions are to make a basic sword available from NPC’s in infinite quantity, or to make sword production more attractive either by making it faster/cheaper or attracting more people to the activity.
Originally posted by Kormac Originally posted by Distortion0 Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so.
Bill, crafter
Is wealthy, pays guards (soldiers) and keeps them equipped
John, crafter
Is wealthy, refuses to waste money on military support / protection
Which one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him.
Billyville
Maintains a modest army to protect itself from raiders
Johnstown
Has a very strong economy because they don't waste money on military
Billyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community).
Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual.
With no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings.
I'd love to see stuff like that in games. When I first came to the MMORPG forums and heard about Perma-death, I thought they were nuts but it really grows on you when you see what can be done with it. I just hope games start using features like those and not copy WoW...god, I hate WoW
Originally posted by Distortion0 Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so. Bill, crafter
Is wealthy, pays guards (soldiers) and keeps them equipped John, crafter
Is wealthy, refuses to waste money on military support / protection Which one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him. Billyville
Maintains a modest army to protect itself from raiders Johnstown
Has a very strong economy because they don't waste money on military Billyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community). Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual.
Economical skill (crafting, mining, services): Functional, extremely vulnerable (and attractive target) Military skill: Weak, dysfunctional Military skill with supplies: Strong With no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings.
There is at least one game that has this sort of stuff in it. Eve-Online. And to be honest the original poster of this thread describes old Star Wars Galaxies exactly. But one of the problems Eve does better in this regard is that resources are not free to obtain, in many instances you have to risk, and build up a corporation or live with a corporation of people that support your goals. PvPers to protect your assets and miners.
You could place a bunch of player owned structures in a system under someone's nose and you might make a profit, but when they find out, and they eventually will most likely will if you leave assets undefended, you will lose all the time and money, and work you put into it. I have heard of players skate out a profit and they do it consistently but they are quite dedicated and skilled in how to setup an installation to make a profit.
One of the problems with Star Wars Galaxies, is after you setup a field of harvesters, there was no risk they made resources as long as they had fuel and money in them, and even the worst minerals sold at 3 credits per unit(thanks to the hologrind). Crafters in many ways were free credits if played right. And creature resources, could make a dedicated player rich very fast, I made my first million credits just harvesting from Rancors, which due to doc buffs were soloable. SWG failed back in 2004, long before the CU. You really didn't have much risk if you did not want it in SWG. And its one of the downfalls, you can't have a world that is all profit and no risk.
Originally posted by Distortion0 Originally posted by Kormac Originally posted by Distortion0 Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so. Bill, crafter Is wealthy, pays guards (soldiers) and keeps them equipped John, crafter Is wealthy, refuses to waste money on military support / protection Which one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him. Billyville Maintains a modest army to protect itself from raiders Johnstown Has a very strong economy because they don't waste money on military Billyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community). Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual.
Economical skill (crafting, mining, services): Functional, extremely vulnerable (and attractive target) Military skill: Weak, dysfunctional Military skill with supplies: Strong With no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings. I'd love to see stuff like that in games. When I first came to the MMORPG forums and heard about Perma-death, I thought they were nuts but it really grows on you when you see what can be done with it. I just hope games start using features like those and not copy WoW...god, I hate WoW
There is at least one game that has this sort of stuff in it. Eve-Online.
I don't like Eve, it has no combat. Well, you can tell your ship to attack a target. It does and occasionialy you need to tell it to attack something else but that's about it. When I heard about Eve I was hoping for something like Freelancer Online, it was so much fun going through trade routes in Freelancer because of the beautiful environments and the threat of being attacked. But Eve was completely ruined for me when I flew straight through a planet while in warp drive and by how I could leave to get a sandwhich when pirates attacked me. In fact, there isn't much in Eve I had to be there for. I don't consider it a good movie if I pop in my TV, leave to eat dinner and come back to a 'The End' screen. I don't consider that a good game either, no mater the features. At least in WoW I'm there clicking my mouse in order to beat a Defies into the ground or I'm excited when I open a chest, wondering what's inside. But Eve has none of that
Sorry, went a little overboard on the rant. But I like Evers to know why Non-Evers don't like the game.
Originally posted by Distortion0 Originally posted by freebirdpatOriginally posted by Distortion0Originally posted by KormacOriginally posted by Distortion0 Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so.Bill, crafter Is wealthy, pays guards (soldiers) and keeps them equippedJohn, crafter Is wealthy, refuses to waste money on military support / protectionWhich one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him.Billyville Maintains a modest army to protect itself from raidersJohnstown Has a very strong economy because they don't waste money on militaryBillyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community).Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual. Economical skill (crafting, mining, services): Functional, extremely vulnerable (and attractive target) Military skill: Weak, dysfunctional Military skill with supplies: StrongWith no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings.I'd love to see stuff like that in games. When I first came to the MMORPG forums and heard about Perma-death, I thought they were nuts but it really grows on you when you see what can be done with it. I just hope games start using features like those and not copy WoW...god, I hate WoW There is at least one game that has this sort of stuff in it. Eve-Online. I don't like Eve, it has no combat. Well, you can tell your ship to attack a target. It does and occasionialy you need to tell it to attack something else but that's about it. When I heard about Eve I was hoping for something like Freelancer Online, it was so much fun going through trade routes in Freelancer because of the beautiful environments and the threat of being attacked. But Eve was completely ruined for me when I flew straight through a planet while in warp drive and by how I could leave to get a sandwhich when pirates attacked me. In fact, there isn't much in Eve I had to be there for. I don't consider it a good movie if I pop in my TV, leave to eat dinner and come back to a 'The End' screen. I don't consider that a good game either, no mater the features. At least in WoW I'm there clicking my mouse in order to beat a Defies into the ground or I'm excited when I open a chest, wondering what's inside. But Eve has none of that Sorry, went a little overboard on the rant. But I like Evers to know why Non-Evers don't like the game.
I don't know what game you played, but it wasn't EVE thats for sure. When I get attacked by pirates, I can't just leave and get a sandwich my ship is more than likely dead unless I do something quick. And if warping through a planet is what ruins it for you, you never really got to play EVE, travel happens like that because your ship sort of enters a different dimension, it makes a warp bubble between your current location to the destination, and I think it would be a completely different game, if after you aligned to warp and are just about to warp and your computer says "cannot warp object in way".
And the way the current EVE warp system is setup, if you are in behind a certain planet, you would not actually be able to warp if it was setup where you could not warp, because in some cases the planet is far out, and being behind it would make that any of the objects that you can warp to are in the line between and the planet.
The AI for computer controlled pirates is quite silly, there really isn't much to the AI there to be honest, but the player controlled pirates are the ones you have to watch out for. I always get excited when a do certain missions, opening cargo cans hoping to find that a module or item that is worth a load of cash. I end up clicking my mouse a lot, for the easy stuff, I can tank it outright, but like anything, you can't stay in the noobie area and expect a challenge. Eve has all of that you are asking, but when its there you choose to ignore it.
Originally posted by Distortion0 I don't like Eve, it has no combat. Well, you can tell your ship to attack a target. It does and occasionialy you need to tell it to attack something else but that's about it. When I heard about Eve I was hoping for something like Freelancer Online, it was so much fun going through trade routes in Freelancer because of the beautiful environments and the threat of being attacked. But Eve was completely ruined for me when I flew straight through a planet while in warp drive and by how I could leave to get a sandwhich when pirates attacked me. In fact, there isn't much in Eve I had to be there for. I don't consider it a good movie if I pop in my TV, leave to eat dinner and come back to a 'The End' screen. I don't consider that a good game either, no mater the features. At least in WoW I'm there clicking my mouse in order to beat a Defies into the ground or I'm excited when I open a chest, wondering what's inside. But Eve has none of that Sorry, went a little overboard on the rant. But I like Evers to know why Non-Evers don't like the game.
If you're judging EVE combat based on the noob pirates you fight then you are not getting a good picture of EVE combat. They are designed to be that way to get people used to the combat, as soon as you get past the starter systems and level 1 agents, the pirates require a lot more attention than just pushing a few buttons every once in awhile.
One game I think has acheived some headway towards a player run economy, is Runescape. It's one of the worst games ever in my opinion, but has a fantastic economy, with prices rising and falling with supply and demand. If you stop playing for a few months, you may come bacj to find that the prices have completely changed for some of the more basic items, such as the raw materials like coal and rune essence(used in the game to create magic runes). Even though I'm no big fan of this game, the economy is almost completely player run, if not completely.
Comments
Adellion (indie)
I'd call that player driven, the NPC becomes a communication device.
Oh, and you were completely off-base... I mean: NPCs don't create or sell goods or services ... duh?
Nah, I agree. But to me, the main thing is that NPCs are not independently producing or purchasing goods/services. They may well take care of the transaction.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I liked Damian's ideas. I'd like to see a really simple system for my sword to break in more games but not to the point where it puts me in the poor house(WoW *caugh*caugh*)
I also don't mind crafter being able to make a good items but as a casual I don't want to have to spend an hour in the marketplace looking for a half-deccent sword either. If I just want to pick up a sword that works for a flat rate price, it should work. That's why there are vender NPCs. Also, maybe instead of raders getting ub3r l00t, they could get ub3r materials to improve things craters make. That way radiers and crafters are important. Personaly I don't like '+1' swords, it's just stupid. Unless your using/cheap/rip-off crappy sword, then your sword is going to be about as good as everyone else unless you're comparing a hortori hanzo to something you made in your basement(a newb who just started crafting to a person whose been crafting since release) I think crafting items should be specialised. You want to go into the volcano dungeon? Well your going to need to get armor from the crafters and enhcnaters so it doesn't melt and seer your flesh! Having trouble with that Demonic Wolf Boss you're getting paid to kill? I heard so and so makes a 'Sword of Wolf's Bane'.
I like the idea of NPCs not buying everything you see them too. Trying to find someone who needs wolf's teeth seems almost as fun as bashing them from the wolf. In fact, if you were an animals lover who was against smashing the wolf, you could simply by the teeth and work as a inter-city trader. It would be a nice break from combat.
Kormac, I think you're sacrificing the game for the crafter. I mean, if the craters have that much power, they're going to bankrupt the Swordsman. I like the swordsman... Unless there's market compitition, or permadeath so I can hold a crafter at knifepoint if he gets out of hand, people won't play a game where crafting is stronger than questing and combat. No one is going to beg the crafter to make them the most basic sword.
i've noticed that crafter driven economies seem to have a whole lot LESS inflation than drop-driven economies.
one poster in another thread mentions that the market in wow is flooded with items and complains about the high prices. well, if the market is flooded, shouldn't the price drop? but wait, wow has no item decay or item loss, you buy an item once and it's yours for ever. add into this a myriad of third world gold farmers... yeah.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so.
Bill, crafter
John, crafter
Which one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him.
Billyville
Johnstown
Billyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community).
Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual.
With no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Ultima Online Pre Trammel.
Player Crafter Items were viable and there was item loss if you were killed and looted. Simple as that. The Magic Weapons gave a slight edge but you could lose them so they had to be replaced either with player crafted items or you had to loot them again. They were not UBER too. It had housing with the possibility of vendor setup. UO had the best player economy i've ever tested. SWG was ok for awhile also. These other games with uber loot are a joke.
doing the tutorial is optional. buying something off the market is part of the tutorial quests. aside from that, to add to what someone else stated - in order to learn new skills, buy new ships, get the exact ship upgrades you want, OR to get rid of any of your loot, you have to use the market.
it's possible all he did was fly in a ship, never dock, get a cargohold full of junk and have no idea how to get rid of it, until he ventured into a low security sector, got podded, and quit - less than an hour after starting. anything is possible. but any scenario unlike that one, well, he either doesn't know what the market is, or he's lying.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WoW being player run with the economy???
All I say is SWG pre-CU.
Everything made by players (furnitures, cities, armor, weapon, gear, vehicles, spaceships, animals (tamed trained and named)).
No vendors to sell items to. All sales went between players. Now that is what I call a good player run economy.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
True that. But I really never saw a true inflation problem. The crafters sure must have had infinite amounts of money. When we look where the source of where money entered the system and where money left the system the cuve was very unbalanced.
That could have a fix for sure. Tickets, house fees, repairs almost cost nothing. These could slowly increase when the economical circles advanced. There could be lesser missions available, like 30 available per day. Or some othe way of solving the payouts from the missions.
Personaly I had no crafter which ment I could affort basic to advanced stuff. 10 mill armor pieces and even more expensive items? No chance. I came up to 10 mill in cash at the most and then I worked pretty hard as a Ranger gathering 100'ds of K's of hides and so on. Though I never took more than 10 CPU for anything I gathered. Got pretty famous for being so kind with the prices. I felt that was a good price
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
True that. But I really never saw a true inflation problem. The crafters sure must have had infinite amounts of money. When we look where the source of where money entered the system and where money left the system the cuve was very unbalanced.
That could have a fix for sure. Tickets, house fees, repairs almost cost nothing. These could slowly increase when the economical circles advanced. There could be lesser missions available, like 30 available per day. Or some othe way of solving the payouts from the missions.
Personaly I had no crafter which ment I could affort basic to advanced stuff. 10 mill armor pieces and even more expensive items? No chance. I came up to 10 mill in cash at the most and then I worked pretty hard as a Ranger gathering 100'ds of K's of hides and so on. Though I never took more than 10 CPU for anything I gathered. Got pretty famous for being so kind with the prices. I felt that was a good price
Yeah that was definitely one of the problems with SWG's economy, one group of classes were the big producers and another were strictly consumers, so the economy ended up getting somewhat lopsided towards one group. The problem with the money sinks is that it effects everyone equally, so while the crafters costs would go up, so would the non-crafters, which would hurt them more. Also that is really dev interference so it kinda takes away control from the players. Ideally the economy should be self ballancing over the long term, something that EVE's market has achieved and why I consider it the best example of a player-run economy.
Maybe you're right, but I actually don't think so.
Bill, crafter
John, crafter
Which one is going to get mugged first? All the soldiers are going to like Bill better, even if they're not his employees. John doesn't support them, so they won't appreciate him.
Billyville
Johnstown
Billyville may not have the cash Johnstown does, but while soldiers without resources are weaker than crafters, soldiers with crafters behind them are a different matter. The soldiers of Billyville can open the Johnstown vaults and conquer all their wealth, because they are supported (by the Billyville community).
Again, it is about the specialist who allows himself to depend on others being stronger than the attempted self-sufficient individual.
With no military protection of any kind, the economically strong entity is likely to be destroyed at some point, unless existing in uncommonly safe and friendly surroundings.
I'd love to see stuff like that in games. When I first came to the MMORPG forums and heard about Perma-death, I thought they were nuts but it really grows on you when you see what can be done with it. I just hope games start using features like those and not copy WoW...god, I hate WoW
There is at least one game that has this sort of stuff in it. Eve-Online. And to be honest the original poster of this thread describes old Star Wars Galaxies exactly. But one of the problems Eve does better in this regard is that resources are not free to obtain, in many instances you have to risk, and build up a corporation or live with a corporation of people that support your goals. PvPers to protect your assets and miners.
You could place a bunch of player owned structures in a system under someone's nose and you might make a profit, but when they find out, and they eventually will most likely will if you leave assets undefended, you will lose all the time and money, and work you put into it. I have heard of players skate out a profit and they do it consistently but they are quite dedicated and skilled in how to setup an installation to make a profit.
One of the problems with Star Wars Galaxies, is after you setup a field of harvesters, there was no risk they made resources as long as they had fuel and money in them, and even the worst minerals sold at 3 credits per unit(thanks to the hologrind). Crafters in many ways were free credits if played right. And creature resources, could make a dedicated player rich very fast, I made my first million credits just harvesting from Rancors, which due to doc buffs were soloable. SWG failed back in 2004, long before the CU. You really didn't have much risk if you did not want it in SWG. And its one of the downfalls, you can't have a world that is all profit and no risk.
There is at least one game that has this sort of stuff in it. Eve-Online.
I don't like Eve, it has no combat. Well, you can tell your ship to attack a target. It does and occasionialy you need to tell it to attack something else but that's about it. When I heard about Eve I was hoping for something like Freelancer Online, it was so much fun going through trade routes in Freelancer because of the beautiful environments and the threat of being attacked. But Eve was completely ruined for me when I flew straight through a planet while in warp drive and by how I could leave to get a sandwhich when pirates attacked me. In fact, there isn't much in Eve I had to be there for. I don't consider it a good movie if I pop in my TV, leave to eat dinner and come back to a 'The End' screen. I don't consider that a good game either, no mater the features. At least in WoW I'm there clicking my mouse in order to beat a Defies into the ground or I'm excited when I open a chest, wondering what's inside. But Eve has none of that
Sorry, went a little overboard on the rant. But I like Evers to know why Non-Evers don't like the game.
Thanks for the suggustion though
I don't know what game you played, but it wasn't EVE thats for sure. When I get attacked by pirates, I can't just leave and get a sandwich my ship is more than likely dead unless I do something quick. And if warping through a planet is what ruins it for you, you never really got to play EVE, travel happens like that because your ship sort of enters a different dimension, it makes a warp bubble between your current location to the destination, and I think it would be a completely different game, if after you aligned to warp and are just about to warp and your computer says "cannot warp object in way".
And the way the current EVE warp system is setup, if you are in behind a certain planet, you would not actually be able to warp if it was setup where you could not warp, because in some cases the planet is far out, and being behind it would make that any of the objects that you can warp to are in the line between and the planet.
The AI for computer controlled pirates is quite silly, there really isn't much to the AI there to be honest, but the player controlled pirates are the ones you have to watch out for. I always get excited when a do certain missions, opening cargo cans hoping to find that a module or item that is worth a load of cash. I end up clicking my mouse a lot, for the easy stuff, I can tank it outright, but like anything, you can't stay in the noobie area and expect a challenge. Eve has all of that you are asking, but when its there you choose to ignore it.