Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe People like what they like.... There are quite a few options if you're looking for FFA PvP. There's Shadowbane, Asheron's Call (Darktide server), Eve Online, Lineage 2, Runescape, and more MUDs than I could possibly list here. Just go to Mud Connector and look for "Player Killing Muds" and "Pure Player Killing Muds" under the Listings->Listings by catagory. Most of the reason that people can't stand FFA PvP has to do with history. Way back in the early days of UO, there were aparently a lot of really bored Diablo and Quake players that wanted to try the "next big thing." They brought their philosophy of constant, non-stop, combat into a world that was made more as a simulation of a fantasy world rather than a 2500+ player deathmatch arena. The result was a split between people that logged on to live a second life in a fantasy kingdom and asshats that talked shit while killing everything that moved. For a good perspective of what this was like, read "Killers Have More Fun" (Wired, May 1998). I was there and this is exactly what it was like. One half of the community was trying to stay in character and "live" in Britania while the other half attacked anything that came on their screen yelling "ZOMG!!! PWN'D U BIATCH!!!" Even after the bounty system was introduced, the community just couldn't shake the retards out of the system. TBH, I don't think anyone had any problems with the FFA PvP aspect of the game. It was the people that used it as an excuse to just be dumbf%@ks that were the real problem. I always thought of PvP in MMORPGs as a meaningless comparison of stats. We're starting to see the devs working on more complex combat systems with some real depth and balance, so that is changing. But we've still got a long way to go.
I don't like PvPing of any sort in MMOs because a fight's just a click and when they have higher stats they pretty much win. I don't play a game so that I can get my ass kicked for weeks at a time. People generally get better at games over time, do you really need contrived statistics to simulate 'getting better over time'?
The only good game for fighting would be one where all characters have the same HP. Then battle would be determined by weapons and armor made or found.
Then, you could be proud of your reactions and your choice of gear.
I agree with the starter (slayers77) of this topic. Runescape does have a vast amount to wildernesss where u can pk with clans and where as to games know a days just containing dueling.
Really: i just Quit Runescape because of the poor Quality of graphics . i personally like the story line and ideas they come up with every week espacially player killing and how the wilderness levels works aswell.
i think more mmorpg games should include pking like in runescape.
Well, right know im trying to see how maple story is! Wish me luck!
Originally posted by TheAdlerian The above post is correct.The only good game for fighting would be one where all characters have the same HP. Then battle would be determined by weapons and armor made or found. Then, you could be proud of your reactions and your choice of gear.I would play that game.
I have the games for you then. They're called Quakes 1, 2, 3 and 4, Half-Life's 1 and 2, Counter-Strike, FarCry, Soldier of Fortunes 1 and 2...
I really hate ffa and losing/lootings items, I just can't stand the idea that some little brat can make me "suffer" in a game (taking away money and items). And there are ways to make PvP meaningful even without ffa and looting, and I'm pretty sure we are going to see some in the next 1-2 years.
But that's just my opinion, the best and fairest way of dealing with different playstyles would be to make like 2-3 different servers and rulesets.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 To the OP: Full scale PvP is the way to go, but sadly people are too afraid of losing to really see that it isnt boring and actually fun. Its unfortunate - youre not going to win every time you play an MMO, yet these people WANT TO WIN every time. Sad.
Fear of loosing has nothing to do with disliking open PvP. If I don’t know you or don’t like you why should I be forced to play a game with you? When I play an MMO I’m not there for your entertainment I or to keep you occupied I’m there for my own enjoyment. I want to be able to pick the people I interact with and mutually decide what form that interaction takes, I also what to be able to pick the activates I participate in without having them thrust upon me by someone else.
Disliking open PvP is about choosing what activities I want to participate in and who I participate in them with. It’s about choice and not being forced into activities with people you don’t know or don’t like. I love to PvP but I do it with friends, people I know and like, not random strangers.
To me what is truly sad are the people who can’t quite separate game from the people playing it. The people who think the other players in the game are placed there by the developers, and think those other players should be obligated to entertain them. It’s kind of like watching a weird little kid wandering the school grounds trying to play with random people who don’t want anything to do with them.
(To be fair, not all fans of open PvP are like that. Most just like the unpredictability of an open PvP environment and are not really bothered by having their choices in the game made by other people. There are games and servers that cater to these people and I think that’s great, the more variety the better IMO. It’s only a small percentage of socially inept losers that give open PvP fans a bad name. This still doesn’t change my own preference of wanting to decide what I do and who I do it with when I play and MMO, I simply value this more then the unpredictability of open PvP)
If you want a good game that allows PKing in any non-safe area (anything in the wilderness and such), you should play AstoniaIII. I have a PKer on this game and I don't risk losing any of my gear because this game gives you the option to put stats on "quest-items" that are unable to be looted by others when you are killed. It's fun. You can take potions/recall scrolls/gold, but not gear. That way you do not lose EVERYTHING. There are also level limitations. You may only kill +/- 3 of your own level. The only down-side to this is that PKing in this game is only allowed for people who pay for the game and are level 10 or higher.
Personally, I think it's not really worth it to risk everything you have worked to build on one fight. I would rather have a PK-style fighting game where there is a lower risk. I think if you can take anything except gear it would be attractive to players. That way it gives an advantage to people who use items such as potions, but there is a risk to lose those. Does anyone know of a game that is played like this? Preferably, one that is free? I don't think I can pay for more than one game at a time when I can't play each of them equally.
I don't really understand why people want open PK with looting. You kill someone steal their stuff, someone kills you and steals the stuff you just got. There is almost never a fair fight because people like to stack the odds in their favour if something is at stake. So you end up with constant to and fro of easy kills and being slaughtered, gear changing hands each time. Why is it fun?
If you want pking try tibia (www.tibia.com). If you die there you have a chance of dropping items when you die and you will always drop your backpack with all its contents in. There is no safe areas in tibia except protection zones that are almost only in the cities.
There is 3 kind of servers in tibia:
Non PvP: You may not attack another player at all.
Normal PvP: If you attack a player there you will get a skull over you character which means that you are a free kill (anyone can kill you without getting skull). If you kill too many in a short periode of time you will get a red skull which lasts for a long time and gives you other disadvantages.
Enforced PvP: Here you can attack anyone without getting skull over your head. You will also get experience from killing players higher level than you.
Also in tibia you need real skill, not just the best gear. You will have to aim your runes and have fast reactions. Of course the ingame skill (that you get from training) matters too but not as mch as your skill.
The importand thing is (for both sides imo): Stop trying to force your playstyle on others. That's why we need different rulesets or a game thats designed for ffa. But for gods sake, stop trying to turn every mmorpg into a eve2 or ultima online 2.
@Ulujain True, some people enjoy making other suffer. Like rapists, killers or childmolesters (I'M NOT SAYING THAT FFA PLAYERS ARE RAPISTS lol, before you get me wrong).
Originally posted by Lumster The importand thing is (for both sides imo): Stop trying to force your playstyle on others. That's why we need different rulesets or a game thats designed for ffa. But for gods sake, stop trying to turn every mmorpg into a eve2 or ultima online 2.
@Ulujain True, some people enjoy making other suffer. Like rapists, killers or childmolesters (I'M NOT SAYING THAT FFA PLAYERS ARE RAPISTS lol, before you get me wrong).
Originally posted by Ulujain Originally posted by Lumster The importand thing is (for both sides imo): Stop trying to force your playstyle on others. That's why we need different rulesets or a game thats designed for ffa. But for gods sake, stop trying to turn every mmorpg into a eve2 or ultima online 2.
@Ulujain True, some people enjoy making other suffer. Like rapists, killers or childmolesters (I'M NOT SAYING THAT FFA PLAYERS ARE RAPISTS lol, before you get me wrong).
If there was a UO 2 then people wouldn't have to be on these boards begging for one. If you were a hardcore pve player and doesn't care for pvp then all the sudden they turn every game into pvp and even the games you were playing they screwed up the pve. Then you had to spend years looking for a new game that did have pve and have yet to find one after at least 3 years. That is what has happened to us veteran pvpers. Even the "pvp" games that come out are level/class crap that doesn't include player skill (not saying that if made right a level/class system couldn't include player skill, it just has yet to be accomplished). You just have to play a lot and have more people.
BTW I use pker and pvper interchangably. Anyone that plays GTA, shooters, doesn't play a crafter in a RPG, and even some more rough sports games enjoy seeing people suffer. This encompasses almost every gamer. Anyone that uses this arguement that one group is violent or criminals is just being ignorant. You could just as easily say well then Pvmers are just a bunch of fat losers(in life and games) that have to beat up on dumb as hell AI because they can't compete directly with other players. Niether arguement is true and anyone that uses either is ignorant of those they are trying to insult.
Most pvpers don't do it specifically to make someone suffer. If they just gank then they probably arn't real pvpers and got killed so they now pick on people weaker than them because they want to feel like they are a special. Others the, pvpers with honor and experience probably pvp for the competition, uncertainty, excitement or adventure. Same as those who enjoy PvE. Even if you arn't directly competing with other players a game like WoW still has competition because if you quit playing for a week or miss a couple raids then someone might get better gear then you.
Why is this we need competition and excitement? Because everyone likes to feel special, important and needed. If you fail at something repeatedly then it quits being fun and you don't feel special. Then you might play a different game where you can be the best or one of the best just by playing constantly. This applies to pvpers and pvmers.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
And you are right, there are no "new" hardcore pvp mmos (except eve maybe). And that's why i beg the industry and companies to make one, or at least make a "hardcore" ruleset. That could work for Vanguard or Conan, but even without the hardcore ruleset conan is going to rock, and it will require some skill thats for sure. I just want that everyone gets at least the playstyle/ruleset they want (you can't satisfy everyone tho).
It's really useless to make discussions about which ruleset is better, you will find threads like these in every mmorpg forum and the results are always the same. People have different opinions and conceivabilities how to play a mmorpg.
"This encompasses almost every gamer. Anyone that uses this arguement that one group is violent or criminals is just being ignorant."
Like i said: Don't get me wrong, i was just refering to Ulujain about psychology.
But the reason it brings back good memories has nothing to do much with PvPing, or not PvPing. It brings back good memories because in those days, we all worked to create a suspension of disbelief, and breathed life into the characters we played. Both the developers, and the players made an effort to foster it.
That was the time when we interacted with our created personalities, rather than between real people.
These days, there is no suspension of disbelief anymore that makes us want to live the stories of a hero (or villain) of our own creation, complete with virtues, and flaws. Neither the developers, nor the players seem to be creative and interested in virtual worlds. Its because we have a new sort of player that is playing these games, and they are frankly, not interested in building worlds, and building characters.
Instead, it seems everyone sees nothing wrong with throwing immersion out the window for the sake of mashing buttons more efficiently. In PvP, the criteria in which these new "XBox Live" players judge themselves are not in how well they can portray a villain in a qualitative and artistic sense, but rather, how efficient their "character build" can "pwn" in the win/loss department.
In PvE, the criteria in which players from the "XBox Live" genertation judge themselves are not how well they can portray a fictional hero, but how much loot they possess, and how to maximize their "grind to gain ratio."
Its this sort of thing that Richard Bartle made a point about when discussing voice chat's impact on MMORPGs. From what I can recall, he recieved a lot of criticism from others. At one time, voice chat was in games that lgave the player very little in terms of portraying a fictional character, like Conterstrike, Madden NFL, and Quake. PvP games, all of them. You did not interact with created personalities in these games. You competed with real people. These games work, because what you do one day in no way affects what will happen the next day. Like a game of baseball, we can settle down, relax, and talk about it after the game is over.
The great thing about games on X-Box Live, and FPS type games, is that we can all play hard, determine the victor, and start again the next time with the score at "0-0," so we have a reason again to give it our best. If you lose a game in baseball, you still have a reason to play hard in the next game, since the old game has no bearing on the next game.
But if baseball games begin by adding or subtracting the difference in the last game's runs, there really is no more point even coming out of the dugout, if you can have a phenomenal ten run game, and still lose, since you were collecively behind by 25 runs. Hence, the problem with the sort of "button mashing test of wills" that most massive online games facilitate today.
The problem with MMOs, is that they are never over. Instead, animosities build, people degrade eachother, and the abject nastiness just becomes intolerable. When the MMOs become too competitive, and the players and guilds who play above expectation are rewarded based soley on their efficient "grind to gain ratios," and above-par "win to loss ratios," then maintaining a suspension of disbelief and creating interesting character personalities become a waste of time.
And this would be all well and good if the things that PKed us were created personalities, like in the old UO and SWG days. But when they are real people, with real voices, and a real desire to win at any cost to immersion, or shared fiction, then PKing cannot work. We go into virtual worlds because we want to escape from the dehumanized humanity that surronds us, and is out to exploit us. Not to enter into yet another test of wills, for the sake of e-peen.
Its a shame, too. I absolutely love PvP, when the players care about the shared fiction, and creation of memorable personalities and characters. I'd like it if we could portray heroes and villains again, and care about our common story, rather than this petty self-interested struggle for efficient "grind to gain ratios," and "win loss ratios."
Unless we all (devs, guilds, and players) work within, sustain, maintain, and cherish the "suspension of disbelief," we'll never be able to heal this divide between PvP and PvE, casual and hardcore, guild and guildless, high level and noob. Portraying roles, and maintaining immersion creates a level of detachment between the players and the game that allows us to have more fun, be more tolerant, be more forgiving, more flexibility, and less hassle.
Then again, I might be asking for the impossible. Too many are too entrenched in this new mindset. All I am saying though is that at one time, we could accept PKing, even if we did not PvP. That was because unlike today, it was never personal. It was between fictional entities.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
On a slightly more optimistic note, the technology evolves and number of players is increasing. No matter what WoW means to alot of people, it has done what no amount of commercial, blog, article or forum could have, it brought milions to internet gaming, myself included.
I played it, got bored, now I play EVE.
What that means is that finaly time is coming that small independant companies can find it worth while to invest time money and individual creativity, which has become the rarest commodity, into this evolvong gaming world. There is respectable number of games in development right this moment that toys with concepts like FFA PVP, permadeath, forced roleplaying and all sorts of niche content that so many wish and long for. And maybe finaly the time has come when there is enough of players that would fill that niche.
I'm kinda sorry that I wasn't there from the start, but I realy think that things can improove and that they will. But some time has to pass, and the more you want something the longer the waiting period seems.
Comments
I don't like PvPing of any sort in MMOs because a fight's just a click and when they have higher stats they pretty much win. I don't play a game so that I can get my ass kicked for weeks at a time. People generally get better at games over time, do you really need contrived statistics to simulate 'getting better over time'?
The only good game for fighting would be one where all characters have the same HP. Then battle would be determined by weapons and armor made or found.
Then, you could be proud of your reactions and your choice of gear.
I would play that game.
I agree with the starter (slayers77) of this topic. Runescape does have a vast amount to wildernesss where u can pk with clans and where as to games know a days just containing dueling.
Really: i just Quit Runescape because of the poor Quality of graphics . i personally like the story line and ideas they come up with every week espacially player killing and how the wilderness levels works aswell.
i think more mmorpg games should include pking like in runescape.
Well, right know im trying to see how maple story is! Wish me luck!
I have the games for you then. They're called Quakes 1, 2, 3 and 4, Half-Life's 1 and 2, Counter-Strike, FarCry, Soldier of Fortunes 1 and 2...
I really hate ffa and losing/lootings items, I just can't stand the idea that some little brat can make me "suffer" in a game (taking away money and items). And there are ways to make PvP meaningful even without ffa and looting, and I'm pretty sure we are going to see some in the next 1-2 years.
But that's just my opinion, the best and fairest way of dealing with different playstyles would be to make like 2-3 different servers and rulesets.
Checking them out currently...
If you want a good game that allows PKing in any non-safe area (anything in the wilderness and such), you should play AstoniaIII. I have a PKer on this game and I don't risk losing any of my gear because this game gives you the option to put stats on "quest-items" that are unable to be looted by others when you are killed. It's fun. You can take potions/recall scrolls/gold, but not gear. That way you do not lose EVERYTHING. There are also level limitations. You may only kill +/- 3 of your own level. The only down-side to this is that PKing in this game is only allowed for people who pay for the game and are level 10 or higher.
Personally, I think it's not really worth it to risk everything you have worked to build on one fight. I would rather have a PK-style fighting game where there is a lower risk. I think if you can take anything except gear it would be attractive to players. That way it gives an advantage to people who use items such as potions, but there is a risk to lose those. Does anyone know of a game that is played like this? Preferably, one that is free? I don't think I can pay for more than one game at a time when I can't play each of them equally.
Why is it fun? The answer to that one lies in the field of psychology, not computer gaming.
If you want pking try tibia (www.tibia.com). If you die there you have a chance of dropping items when you die and you will always drop your backpack with all its contents in. There is no safe areas in tibia except protection zones that are almost only in the cities.
There is 3 kind of servers in tibia:
Non PvP: You may not attack another player at all.
Normal PvP: If you attack a player there you will get a skull over you character which means that you are a free kill (anyone can kill you without getting skull). If you kill too many in a short periode of time you will get a red skull which lasts for a long time and gives you other disadvantages.
Enforced PvP: Here you can attack anyone without getting skull over your head. You will also get experience from killing players higher level than you.
Also in tibia you need real skill, not just the best gear. You will have to aim your runes and have fast reactions. Of course the ingame skill (that you get from training) matters too but not as mch as your skill.
If you want real PvP try tibia.
The importand thing is (for both sides imo):
Stop trying to force your playstyle on others. That's why we need different rulesets or a game thats designed for ffa.
But for gods sake, stop trying to turn every mmorpg into a eve2 or ultima online 2.
@Ulujain
True, some people enjoy making other suffer. Like rapists, killers or childmolesters (I'M NOT SAYING THAT FFA PLAYERS ARE RAPISTS lol, before you get me wrong).
Originally posted by Lumster
The importand thing is (for both sides imo):
Stop trying to force your playstyle on others. That's why we need different rulesets or a game thats designed for ffa.
But for gods sake, stop trying to turn every mmorpg into a eve2 or ultima online 2.
@Ulujain
True, some people enjoy making other suffer. Like rapists, killers or childmolesters (I'M NOT SAYING THAT FFA PLAYERS ARE RAPISTS lol, before you get me wrong).
Some people? Some will have you believe it's latent in us all.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment]
Edit: fixed the borked quoting up.
If there was a UO 2 then people wouldn't have to be on these boards begging for one. If you were a hardcore pve player and doesn't care for pvp then all the sudden they turn every game into pvp and even the games you were playing they screwed up the pve. Then you had to spend years looking for a new game that did have pve and have yet to find one after at least 3 years. That is what has happened to us veteran pvpers. Even the "pvp" games that come out are level/class crap that doesn't include player skill (not saying that if made right a level/class system couldn't include player skill, it just has yet to be accomplished). You just have to play a lot and have more people.
BTW I use pker and pvper interchangably. Anyone that plays GTA, shooters, doesn't play a crafter in a RPG, and even some more rough sports games enjoy seeing people suffer. This encompasses almost every gamer. Anyone that uses this arguement that one group is violent or criminals is just being ignorant. You could just as easily say well then Pvmers are just a bunch of fat losers(in life and games) that have to beat up on dumb as hell AI because they can't compete directly with other players. Niether arguement is true and anyone that uses either is ignorant of those they are trying to insult.
Most pvpers don't do it specifically to make someone suffer. If they just gank then they probably arn't real pvpers and got killed so they now pick on people weaker than them because they want to feel like they are a special. Others the, pvpers with honor and experience probably pvp for the competition, uncertainty, excitement or adventure. Same as those who enjoy PvE. Even if you arn't directly competing with other players a game like WoW still has competition because if you quit playing for a week or miss a couple raids then someone might get better gear then you.
Why is this we need competition and excitement? Because everyone likes to feel special, important and needed. If you fail at something repeatedly then it quits being fun and you don't feel special. Then you might play a different game where you can be the best or one of the best just by playing constantly. This applies to pvpers and pvmers.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
@Entreri28
Nice post!
And you are right, there are no "new" hardcore pvp mmos (except eve maybe). And that's why i beg the industry and companies to make one, or at least make a "hardcore" ruleset. That could work for Vanguard or Conan, but even without the hardcore ruleset conan is going to rock, and it will require some skill thats for sure. I just want that everyone gets at least the playstyle/ruleset they want (you can't satisfy everyone tho).
It's really useless to make discussions about which ruleset is better, you will find threads like these in every mmorpg forum and the results are always the same. People have different opinions and conceivabilities how to play a mmorpg.
"This encompasses almost every gamer. Anyone that uses this arguement that one group is violent or criminals is just being ignorant."
Like i said: Don't get me wrong, i was just refering to Ulujain about psychology.
@Ulujain
O.O thx for the link, that's interesting.
This is what you are looking for OP:
Eve-Online - No Other Destiny
I warn you, this is a long post.
PKing brings back good memories.
But the reason it brings back good memories has nothing to do much with PvPing, or not PvPing. It brings back good memories because in those days, we all worked to create a suspension of disbelief, and breathed life into the characters we played. Both the developers, and the players made an effort to foster it.
That was the time when we interacted with our created personalities, rather than between real people.
These days, there is no suspension of disbelief anymore that makes us want to live the stories of a hero (or villain) of our own creation, complete with virtues, and flaws. Neither the developers, nor the players seem to be creative and interested in virtual worlds. Its because we have a new sort of player that is playing these games, and they are frankly, not interested in building worlds, and building characters.
Instead, it seems everyone sees nothing wrong with throwing immersion out the window for the sake of mashing buttons more efficiently. In PvP, the criteria in which these new "XBox Live" players judge themselves are not in how well they can portray a villain in a qualitative and artistic sense, but rather, how efficient their "character build" can "pwn" in the win/loss department.
In PvE, the criteria in which players from the "XBox Live" genertation judge themselves are not how well they can portray a fictional hero, but how much loot they possess, and how to maximize their "grind to gain ratio."
Its this sort of thing that Richard Bartle made a point about when discussing voice chat's impact on MMORPGs. From what I can recall, he recieved a lot of criticism from others. At one time, voice chat was in games that lgave the player very little in terms of portraying a fictional character, like Conterstrike, Madden NFL, and Quake. PvP games, all of them. You did not interact with created personalities in these games. You competed with real people. These games work, because what you do one day in no way affects what will happen the next day. Like a game of baseball, we can settle down, relax, and talk about it after the game is over.
The great thing about games on X-Box Live, and FPS type games, is that we can all play hard, determine the victor, and start again the next time with the score at "0-0," so we have a reason again to give it our best. If you lose a game in baseball, you still have a reason to play hard in the next game, since the old game has no bearing on the next game.
But if baseball games begin by adding or subtracting the difference in the last game's runs, there really is no more point even coming out of the dugout, if you can have a phenomenal ten run game, and still lose, since you were collecively behind by 25 runs. Hence, the problem with the sort of "button mashing test of wills" that most massive online games facilitate today.
The problem with MMOs, is that they are never over. Instead, animosities build, people degrade eachother, and the abject nastiness just becomes intolerable. When the MMOs become too competitive, and the players and guilds who play above expectation are rewarded based soley on their efficient "grind to gain ratios," and above-par "win to loss ratios," then maintaining a suspension of disbelief and creating interesting character personalities become a waste of time.
And this would be all well and good if the things that PKed us were created personalities, like in the old UO and SWG days. But when they are real people, with real voices, and a real desire to win at any cost to immersion, or shared fiction, then PKing cannot work. We go into virtual worlds because we want to escape from the dehumanized humanity that surronds us, and is out to exploit us. Not to enter into yet another test of wills, for the sake of e-peen.
Its a shame, too. I absolutely love PvP, when the players care about the shared fiction, and creation of memorable personalities and characters. I'd like it if we could portray heroes and villains again, and care about our common story, rather than this petty self-interested struggle for efficient "grind to gain ratios," and "win loss ratios."
Unless we all (devs, guilds, and players) work within, sustain, maintain, and cherish the "suspension of disbelief," we'll never be able to heal this divide between PvP and PvE, casual and hardcore, guild and guildless, high level and noob. Portraying roles, and maintaining immersion creates a level of detachment between the players and the game that allows us to have more fun, be more tolerant, be more forgiving, more flexibility, and less hassle.
Then again, I might be asking for the impossible. Too many are too entrenched in this new mindset. All I am saying though is that at one time, we could accept PKing, even if we did not PvP. That was because unlike today, it was never personal. It was between fictional entities.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
twitch based combat
roma-victor.com
On a slightly more optimistic note, the technology evolves and number of players is increasing. No matter what WoW means to alot of people, it has done what no amount of commercial, blog, article or forum could have, it brought milions to internet gaming, myself included.
I played it, got bored, now I play EVE.
What that means is that finaly time is coming that small independant companies can find it worth while to invest time money and individual creativity, which has become the rarest commodity, into this evolvong gaming world. There is respectable number of games in development right this moment that toys with concepts like FFA PVP, permadeath, forced roleplaying and all sorts of niche content that so many wish and long for. And maybe finaly the time has come when there is enough of players that would fill that niche.
I'm kinda sorry that I wasn't there from the start, but I realy think that things can improove and that they will. But some time has to pass, and the more you want something the longer the waiting period seems.
You quoted the wrong person m8. I said nothing for or against PvP.