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Time to Kill and Action Combat MMOs. Where the balance here?

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Somebody in another thread made a great point. Action Combat seem to be the new trend and may become standard as some of the upcoming big MMOs seem to hint at.

Ok if that is going to be the case, I want to talk about the "Time To Kill ⏰️" 

Typically the console and PC Action Combat games of choice is FPS games. They tend to have mechanics like headshot kills and other forms of quick kills. 

But games like this usually are match instanced based so quick resets from quick kills work well. 
But in a open world 🌎 that is large, couldn't quick kill mechanics like this be problematic,  since there isn't quick resets. Also Typical MMOs have multiple group roles other than DPS. FPS games usually just have different forms of DPS but all the same role.

I haven't really seen Action Combat MMOs do the support and tanking in a fun way. Theses roles tend to oppose damage, but if they don't function well, the time to Kill goes up. 

Where is the proper balance for Action Combat MMO time to Kill? Especially if they have both open world Combat and instanced competitive content?




Philosophy of MMO Game Design

Mendel
«1

Comments

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Entirely too many of the action combat type games tend to be solo focused, with groups optional.  That effectively makes everyone DPS and a Tank (and a healer or potion guzzler).  Traditional MMORPG group roles are less important in that type of game.  So, we see a *lot* of ARPGs being sold as MMOs.  They are action RPGs that happen to allow a lot of connectivity.

    The do-everything design decision diminishes the functionality of class types, especially in groups.  Everyone is balanced towards being able to kill quickly.  Even when grouped, the faster the kill, the better the rewards.

    I think that modern designers, especially those adopting some form of action combat, don't appreciate or value the concept of time-to-kill.  So, it's simply left out of their game.



    MMOExposedBrainyIselin

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,583
    The MMORPG I've played most similar to that was Defiance, and the enemies took quite a few hits to bring down compared to the few FPS I've played. Essentially they were given durability greater durability so they were harder to bring down in one hit, even with headshots.

    Perhaps someone that plays PlanetSide 2 could provide insight as to how such would be handled as it seems to be very much like a MMORPG with a heavy emphasis on FPS play that has been around for a good while now.
  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 864
    Well, if I compare GW1 1v1 (tab target) and BDO 1v1 (action combat), I would say that TTK is about the same when opponents are on equal foot or about. It translates by the fact that victory happens only when both opponents had their fair share of trading blows.

    Of course in BDO this is not true anymore when there a strong gear score or level difference. In this case, a well executed combo kills instantaneously.

    In GW1 gear was standardized and everybody was level 20, so it was a true skill check. To be fair, sometimes a build could also hard counter another one.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,583
    eoloe said:
    Well, if I compare GW1 1v1 (tab target) and BDO 1v1 (action combat), I would say that TTK is about the same when opponents are on equal foot or about. It translates by the fact that victory happens only when both opponents had their fair share of trading blows.

    Of course in BDO this is not true anymore when there a strong gear score or level difference. In this case, a well executed combo kills instantaneously.

    In GW1 gear was standardized and everybody was level 20, so it was a true skill check. To be fair, sometimes a build could also hard counter another one.

    Would not a tab target game where significant gear or level advantage exists produce similar advantage as action combat games similarly so?
    eoloe
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited August 2022
    There is nothing mysterious about TTK. It's simply a function of Damage - (Mitigation + Recovery.) and action combat MMOs balance all 3 to achieve their desired TTK. It can be quicker or slower depending on their desired goal and is tuned exactly the same way as non-action combat is.

    It also has nothing to do with group vs. solo play. That homogenization of capabilities to enable everyone to solo (which was very much player requested by the way) making all classes capable of damage, mitigation and healing is a whole different and independent trend that has been happening for years and can be done whether you're talking action combat or not.

    You can still have class or build differentiation in more solo focused MMOs but those differences will be more subtle and not as extreme as they used to be.

    A healer in modern MMOs is a class or build that can heal better than those not built that way and a tank is one built for mitigation and better at that. The fact that everyone can do some damage, mitigate and heal to some extent doesn't negate specialization and hybridization always comes at the cost of not being able to do any of the three things as well as someone who specializes in one.

    TTK is also something that developers need to get right in PvP and it has always been a problem and tricky to get right, It also isn't a new thing nor confined to action MMOs.

    As far back as DAoC there were many complaints about 1-shot kills -  no you didn't need FPS games with head shots for that - , typically at the hands of a stealth class some of which also had ridiculously long stuns which meant that even if they didn't one-shot you they could still kill you before you could react at all. And that was not an action combat MMO nor was it particularly solo friendly.

    If you want to have an intelligent discussion about how long it takes to kill something or someone in MMOs at the very least park your anti-action and/or anti-solo biases before you open the door :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited August 2022
    Mendel said:


    I think that modern designers, especially those adopting some form of action combat, don't appreciate or value the concept of time-to-kill.  So, it's simply left out of their game.


    Sorry bud, but that's a ridiculous statement. TTK is front and center in every single MMO - action or not -  especially if it has PvP.

    You might know it by its more commonly used name, "balancing."

    Your DPS gets nerfed? Your TTK just went up.
    Your DPS gets buffed? Your TTK just went down.
    Your mitigation or healing gets nerfed? Others' TTK to kill you just went down...
    ... and so on.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • eoloeeoloe Member RarePosts: 864
    KnightFalz said:
    eoloe said:
    Well, if I compare GW1 1v1 (tab target) and BDO 1v1 (action combat), I would say that TTK is about the same when opponents are on equal foot or about. It translates by the fact that victory happens only when both opponents had their fair share of trading blows.

    Of course in BDO this is not true anymore when there a strong gear score or level difference. In this case, a well executed combo kills instantaneously.

    In GW1 gear was standardized and everybody was level 20, so it was a true skill check. To be fair, sometimes a build could also hard counter another one.

    Would not a tab target game where significant gear or level advantage exists produce similar advantage as action combat games similarly so?

    I don't have an example in mind but most probably. But don't get me wrong, I was highlighting that the type of combat (tab vs action) may not in fact influence TTK.

    Game designers decide TTK. It does not automatically depends on the type of combat.

    For example there is that turn by turn PvP game, in which TTK is very short. Depending on the ruleset, it may be solved in just ONE round! It is called rock-paper-scissors!





  • oscar57oscar57 Newbie CommonPosts: 2
    I play New world, it's not an MMORPG, but definitely an RPG and I like it very much, I used to play other games, but I liked NW the most
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,583
    eoloe said:

    I don't have an example in mind but most probably. But don't get me wrong, I was highlighting that the type of combat (tab vs action) may not in fact influence TTK.

    Game designers decide TTK. It does not automatically depends on the type of combat.

    For example there is that turn by turn PvP game, in which TTK is very short. Depending on the ruleset, it may be solved in just ONE round! It is called rock-paper-scissors!

    Well, yes, of course developers can design that to their preference regardless of combat type. They determine what the numbers are and how they work together.
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,331
    Standing still pressing your rotation til mob is dead are so much fun dont you think?
    ExsirasKidRisk
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited September 2022
    Maurgrim said:
    Standing still pressing your rotation til mob is dead are so much fun dont you think?
    In turn based games where you have like 20 or more options in a single turn you actually stand there and think about what to do. It can be interesting. 

    Of course we are not talking about the same things.

    Games that have slower time to respond like Everquest had a different mechanic. Yes tab targetting was used because you had to prioritize the one your tank was tanking and avoid hitting the mezzed or otherwise CCed mobs.

    Action combat is a different way to play just as slower tab target games are different.

    I really don't think you can compare these games. They are completely different just as turn based, tab target and action combat have their own complexities and attractions that make them good. 

    There is also no point in trying to say one is inferior to the other. Each of these types of games have their place. There is no way to gauge them equally because their mechanics differ and the reason they can be good also is different from each other.

    This topic attempts to homogenize and compare them on an equal footing when they can never be that.
    ScotKidRiskTuor7

  • DigDuggyDigDuggy Member RarePosts: 694
    It's like anything else.  A trend and a good alternative for those who enjoy this sort of style.  I don't care for it so much, but there's plenty others for me to choose.  Now, if it becomes an avalanche and squeezes out other styles, then we've got issues.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,429
    Action combat is not a new trend it is now the default way MMOs are made, the degree of action and the way it is implemented varies a lot but it is de rigueur. Not sure any MMOs have "head shot" (one shot kills) so I am having trouble seeing how this applies to whats out there currently, though this could be brought in.
  • nate1980nate1980 Member UncommonPosts: 2,074
    MMOExposed said:
    Somebody in another thread made a great point. Action Combat seem to be the new trend and may become standard as some of the upcoming big MMOs seem to hint at.

    Ok if that is going to be the case, I want to talk about the "Time To Kill ⏰️" 

    Typically the console and PC Action Combat games of choice is FPS games. They tend to have mechanics like headshot kills and other forms of quick kills. 

    But games like this usually are match instanced based so quick resets from quick kills work well. 
    But in a open world ? that is large, couldn't quick kill mechanics like this be problematic,  since there isn't quick resets. Also Typical MMOs have multiple group roles other than DPS. FPS games usually just have different forms of DPS but all the same role.

    I haven't really seen Action Combat MMOs do the support and tanking in a fun way. Theses roles tend to oppose damage, but if they don't function well, the time to Kill goes up. 

    Where is the proper balance for Action Combat MMO time to Kill? Especially if they have both open world Combat and instanced competitive content?




    I think The Division and Destiny are good examples for TTK in the MMO sphere. In the Single Player sphere with action combat, I think the Soulsbourne games and Greedfall are good examples. There are plenty more action-oriented RPG's to draw from for good TTK times as well. 

    As for Holy Trinity in action MMORPG's, Destiny proves you don't really need it. Just have 3 player groups with quick queing for grouped content and never have to worry about tanks or healers again. Now that doesn't mean there can't be tanky classes or healer/support classes, it just means the content doesn't need to be designed around the taunt and heal dynamics of traditional MMORPG's.
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  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    I'm generally a fan of longer TTK, but really it all comes down to how the gameplay has been designed.


    Ask yourself first: what does making the fight last longer bring to the table? What opportunities does it open up?


    The way most RPGs are designed, making a fight longer literally adds nothing. The majority of content is easy, and the outcome determined by your stats, not your actions. Resource management is rarely a thing. Given how shallow most action combat games are, it's no wonder that the TTK is short: theres no point making it longer.




    But, when an RPG is designed well, then longer combat can really add something. The last time I experienced that was in the early years of LotRO. That game used to have so much depth in the combat mechanics, but that depth only really came out in long, difficult fights. The regular world stuff was just as shallow and boring as your typical action combat game, so i was glad that was quick. But a 10-20 minute boss fight, oooohhh, I loved it!
    AmarantharKidRisk
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    The gamer in 2022 just seems to like things fast and easy.....They want to mow down hundreds of mobs in seconds...Personally I dont see the fun in that , but it is what it is....
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    edited September 2022
    The gamer in 2022 just seems to like things fast and easy.....They want to mow down hundreds of mobs in seconds...Personally I dont see the fun in that , but it is what it is....
    /press # 1
    /press # 2
    /press # 1
    /press # 2
    /press # 1
    ....
    ....."hey, what did you do last night?"
    "When was last night?" 
    "Did you hear that new song by someone?"
    "Why is my character laying on the ground?" 
    "What a crapfest!"
    "They ruined this game." 

    ScotTuor7

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    cameltosis said:
    I'm generally a fan of longer TTK, but really it all comes down to how the gameplay has been designed.


    Ask yourself first: what does making the fight last longer bring to the table? What opportunities does it open up?


    The way most RPGs are designed, making a fight longer literally adds nothing. The majority of content is easy, and the outcome determined by your stats, not your actions. Resource management is rarely a thing. Given how shallow most action combat games are, it's no wonder that the TTK is short: theres no point making it longer.




    But, when an RPG is designed well, then longer combat can really add something. The last time I experienced that was in the early years of LotRO. That game used to have so much depth in the combat mechanics, but that depth only really came out in long, difficult fights. The regular world stuff was just as shallow and boring as your typical action combat game, so i was glad that was quick. But a 10-20 minute boss fight, oooohhh, I loved it!
    10-20 minutes is way too long for me, but you have a great point. 
    As they say, "Timing is everything."
    In a long enough, major fight, if every player gets a chance to wait for the right moment to carry out a special thing they can do, and it all adds up to the big victory, then that's ideal, great fun, and very rewarding. 

    If Players took the time, that would be a great time for a tavern visit, drinks all around, and great story telling. (If only, lol.)
    Scot

    Once upon a time....

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,583
    Maurgrim said:
    Standing still pressing your rotation til mob is dead are so much fun dont you think?

    For some it is.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    KnightFalz said:
    Maurgrim said:
    Standing still pressing your rotation til mob is dead are so much fun dont you think?

    For some it is.
    That's just so "unhealthy." (I was just at Ralphie's thread.) 

    Seriously though, where's the entertainment? 

    Once upon a time....

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    Theocritus said:
    The gamer in 2022 just seems to like things fast and easy.....They want to mow down hundreds of mobs in seconds...Personally I dont see the fun in that , but it is what it is....
    Standing as the last bastion of hope mowing down mobs of "mobs" as they futilely throw themselves at you in vain ... seeing them get thrown down before you as you eventually stand in victory ...

    Yeah, who could find fun in that?  :p  

    Where I would say there isn't fun, at least for me, is not having any sense of danger, and sense that there is a chance that you can be defeated if you aren't smart.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    Sovrath said:
    Theocritus said:
    The gamer in 2022 just seems to like things fast and easy.....They want to mow down hundreds of mobs in seconds...Personally I dont see the fun in that , but it is what it is....
    Standing as the last bastion of hope mowing down mobs of "mobs" as they futilely throw themselves at you in vain ... seeing them get thrown down before you as you eventually stand in victory ...

    Yeah, who could find fun in that?  :p  

    Where I would say there isn't fun, at least for me, is not having any sense of danger, and sense that there is a chance that you can be defeated if you aren't smart.
    That and the fact that you are not actually the last bastion of hope.  :/

    Once upon a time....

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,938
    Amaranthar said:
    Sovrath said:
    Theocritus said:
    The gamer in 2022 just seems to like things fast and easy.....They want to mow down hundreds of mobs in seconds...Personally I dont see the fun in that , but it is what it is....
    Standing as the last bastion of hope mowing down mobs of "mobs" as they futilely throw themselves at you in vain ... seeing them get thrown down before you as you eventually stand in victory ...

    Yeah, who could find fun in that?  :p  

    Where I would say there isn't fun, at least for me, is not having any sense of danger, and sense that there is a chance that you can be defeated if you aren't smart.
    That and the fact that you are not actually the last bastion of hope.  :/

    My mom says otherwise! ;)
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,852
    Sovrath said:
    Amaranthar said:
    Sovrath said:
    Theocritus said:
    The gamer in 2022 just seems to like things fast and easy.....They want to mow down hundreds of mobs in seconds...Personally I dont see the fun in that , but it is what it is....
    Standing as the last bastion of hope mowing down mobs of "mobs" as they futilely throw themselves at you in vain ... seeing them get thrown down before you as you eventually stand in victory ...

    Yeah, who could find fun in that?  :p  

    Where I would say there isn't fun, at least for me, is not having any sense of danger, and sense that there is a chance that you can be defeated if you aren't smart.
    That and the fact that you are not actually the last bastion of hope.  :/

    My mom says otherwise! ;)
    Moms, ya just gotta love them, don'tcha? 

    But that brings up a question. Should we be offended that Devs want to act like our moms? 

    Once upon a time....

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