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Is this a scam?

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,058
    Sovrath said:
    *shrug*


    I often wonder if game developers add all sorts of "detail" that they feel is needed but they know, deep down inside, that no one will ever know.

    I could take you to several areas in FO76 where the developers created some elaborate landscape features which seemed incomplete as far too much detail was done in them with almost no purpose.

    Theory is there was a plan for them to be more, perhaps meant to have their own story / quests but were never finished since management decided to rush the game out the door "on time" but certainly too early.

    I still go back and check them regularly to see if they might get an update but so far most of them remain as testaments to what might have been, probably appropriate for a post nuclear holocaust future.




    UngoodScotSovrath

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Well it failed the KickStarter, and Braid passed away, to be honest, I am amazed they are even still trying.

    But when I think about it, Embers Adrift lost it's poster child, and suddenly the game went from "We are working on it" to "We are doing stress tests now" in the course of a year and .
    SovrathKyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    *shrug*


    I often wonder if game developers add all sorts of "detail" that they feel is needed but they know, deep down inside, that no one will ever know.

    I could take you to several areas in FO76 where the developers created some elaborate landscape features which seemed incomplete as far too much detail was done in them with almost no purpose.

    Theory is there was a plan for them to be more, perhaps meant to have their own story / quests but were never finished since management decided to rush the game out the door "on time" but certainly too early.

    I still go back and check them regularly to see if they might get an update but so far most of them remain as testaments to what might have been, probably appropriate for a post nuclear holocaust future.
    I have seen a few articles were designers talk about all the stuff they put in that players sail by and hardly notice. That was back in the day when playing one or at most two games at a time was the norm, heaven knows how bad developers think that is now.
    SovrathKyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,058
    edited August 2022
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    *shrug*


    I often wonder if game developers add all sorts of "detail" that they feel is needed but they know, deep down inside, that no one will ever know.

    I could take you to several areas in FO76 where the developers created some elaborate landscape features which seemed incomplete as far too much detail was done in them with almost no purpose.

    Theory is there was a plan for them to be more, perhaps meant to have their own story / quests but were never finished since management decided to rush the game out the door "on time" but certainly too early.

    I still go back and check them regularly to see if they might get an update but so far most of them remain as testaments to what might have been, probably appropriate for a post nuclear holocaust future.
    I have seen a few articles were designers talk about all the stuff they put in that players sail by and hardly notice. That was back in the day when playing one or at most two games at a time was the norm, heaven knows how bad developers think that is now.
    There is a well hidden chamber in the deepest depths of the Lucky Hole Mine with a very creepy ill formed creature and some giant metal heads which I've introduced several new players to.

    We all have enjoyed speculating what it's about based on some brief bits of Mothman lore found on various notes, holo tapes, and computer terminals.

    We knew there was some sort of evil god like being being worshipped by cultists, and before the introduction of human NPCs a few years post launch there wasn't anything praying to anyone, just a horde of mutant mole miners which were replaced by cultists after that.

    It was noted the giant metal heads were the same faces as found in the nearby town of Watoga, but no explanation on how or why these got to the bottom of the mine.

    Now that's all anyone knew however I just Googled it again and now there's an elaborate backstory about the Interloper on the wiki but I think it's a creative fan fabrication woven from the actual in game material or I have just totally missed some huge portion of content which is highly unlikely.

    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Interloper
    UngoodScot

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    <snip>
    Deathkon1 said:
    I've lost faith in any crowd funding games [...]
    The main issue with crowd funding is that people experience how long games really take to develop. Especially in a case like Star Citizen where you shower the guy in money and he can do the "perfect" game. Turns out developing the perfect game takes really long !

    And how high chances game development has to fail, for that matter.

    Previously all that was hidden. Games got developed over years without any public communication about it whatsoever.

    The other issue is that in crowd funding, you are sort of an investor, but you arent treated as one. So you take the risk but you dont reap the benefit.

    Other than that, well, without crowd funding these games wont be developed.

    I wanted to comment on this part of your post.  I totally agree about the crowd funding letting people role-play the part of investor, without any of the legal safeguards.  To me, that's the worst part of CF.

    But the "without crowdfunding these games won't be developed' part throws me.  There have been too many failures and not enough 'delivered games' for me to even consider crowdfunding as a successful avenue to develop games.  I think the success rate for Open Source Software Development (Firefox, Open Office, Gimp, etc.) is actually better than crowdfunding.  Where are the CF success stories with delivered products?



    Brainykitarad

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    yes. 
    KyleranSensai
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,094
    Deathkon1 said:
    If you need to ask this best not donate anything and wait for a official release, theres plenty of things to rotate game wise until then

    Well, thats what I've been doing.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    This is a game that was talking about releasing like 4+ years ago (Late 2017 is what they were initially stating).

    I am so glad I didn't waste my money backing this.

    This is Landmark all over again.
    AngryElf
  • EQBallzzEQBallzz Member UncommonPosts: 229
    I backed this game way back when because I believed in Brad McQuaid despite his baggage. I don't believe this game started as a scam. Now that Brad is gone and we are almost to 2023 and this game is STILL in pre-alpha it feels like the development has become a scam. I mean WTF are they doing? I still get the Dev letters every month with the same fluff about nothing but links to "support" Pantheon. I stopped reading them long ago because who could still be excited or believe anything about this project? It's sad.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    edited October 2022
    bcbully said:
    yes. 

    Says the one that hypes every crypto, NFT, P2E and blockchain scam out there.....
    cheyane
  • nk362ynk362y Member UncommonPosts: 31
    EQBallzz said:
    I backed this game way back when because I believed in Brad McQuaid despite his baggage. I don't believe this game started as a scam. Now that Brad is gone and we are almost to 2023 and this game is STILL in pre-alpha it feels like the development has become a scam. I mean WTF are they doing? I still get the Dev letters every month with the same fluff about nothing but links to "support" Pantheon. I stopped reading them long ago because who could still be excited or believe anything about this project? It's sad.
    Then you have no clue what they have done and how far they have come. They went from zones with loading screens at zone line to a seamless open world. For everything but for maybe the Dungenes. They have updated all the graphics, player models, changed the combat system to be more then just wack a mole to something a bit more involved. (Not sure what that means TBH) they have built a brand new network stack, and library system that they are selling to other developers. They have completed the NPC perception system. Which is a whole network of how mobs interact with players ect. The banking system is completed. And the new player model rigs for the dark myr female are done as well.there is more. But if your not going to even try to look at the newsletter or watch a video every once in while then this is more then you should get. We won't even bring up the fact they had a pre alpha session a couple of weeks ago. If that isn't proof that there is something here idk what will
    EQBallzzKyleranBrainyTwoTubesMendel
  • giantessfangiantessfan Member UncommonPosts: 185
    I don't think its a scam. I think Pantheon releases regular updates and shows quite a bit through Cohh Carnage. I do think the game will come out within the next 6 years. However, will that game be any good or will it be a Crowfall. Who knows? I have more confidence now that someone else has taken charge who has a really good track record of releasing games
  • EQBallzzEQBallzz Member UncommonPosts: 229
    nk362y said:
    EQBallzz said:
    I backed this game way back when because I believed in Brad McQuaid despite his baggage. I don't believe this game started as a scam. Now that Brad is gone and we are almost to 2023 and this game is STILL in pre-alpha it feels like the development has become a scam. I mean WTF are they doing? I still get the Dev letters every month with the same fluff about nothing but links to "support" Pantheon. I stopped reading them long ago because who could still be excited or believe anything about this project? It's sad.
    Then you have no clue what they have done and how far they have come. They went from zones with loading screens at zone line to a seamless open world. For everything but for maybe the Dungenes. They have updated all the graphics, player models, changed the combat system to be more then just wack a mole to something a bit more involved. (Not sure what that means TBH) they have built a brand new network stack, and library system that they are selling to other developers. They have completed the NPC perception system. Which is a whole network of how mobs interact with players ect. The banking system is completed. And the new player model rigs for the dark myr female are done as well.there is more. But if your not going to even try to look at the newsletter or watch a video every once in while then this is more then you should get. We won't even bring up the fact they had a pre alpha session a couple of weeks ago. If that isn't proof that there is something here idk what will
    It's 6 years past the original release date and it's still in PRE-alpha. Yes, there is *something* there. That something still isn't a game. Not even an alpha. I hope I'm wrong and it releases but at this point are there even enough people still interested for the game to be viable at release? That's assuming it's even any good. Half the original EQ players (who are the primary target audience) will be dead or too old to care before this releases. 

    And for the record I did follow the progress for a long while. I did watch a lot of the Cohh playthroughs. I read the updates. Waited for news. For years. That's how long this has been in pre-alpha. I could do that for years and then not do that for years and it's still in pre-alpha.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,058
    nk362y said:
    EQBallzz said:
    I backed this game way back when because I believed in Brad McQuaid despite his baggage. I don't believe this game started as a scam. Now that Brad is gone and we are almost to 2023 and this game is STILL in pre-alpha it feels like the development has become a scam. I mean WTF are they doing? I still get the Dev letters every month with the same fluff about nothing but links to "support" Pantheon. I stopped reading them long ago because who could still be excited or believe anything about this project? It's sad.
    Then you have no clue what they have done and how far they have come. They went from zones with loading screens at zone line to a seamless open world. For everything but for maybe the Dungenes. They have updated all the graphics, player models, changed the combat system to be more then just wack a mole to something a bit more involved. (Not sure what that means TBH) they have built a brand new network stack, and library system that they are selling to other developers. They have completed the NPC perception system. Which is a whole network of how mobs interact with players ect. The banking system is completed. And the new player model rigs for the dark myr female are done as well.there is more. But if your not going to even try to look at the newsletter or watch a video every once in while then this is more then you should get. We won't even bring up the fact they had a pre alpha session a couple of weeks ago. If that isn't proof that there is something here idk what will
    The thing is, you actually believe what they say, most of us here are jaded because know better.

    Most of what you shared I'm guessing you haven't actually seen or played, because if you had, you wouldn't be permitted to talk about it due to their NDA.

    What will it take?  No NDA, 24 x 7 testing access, proof of funding to completion,  largely feature complete, and a proper plan with a target release date would be a start, but at days end, until it formally releases it's just promises.

    Don't need to read a single newsletter or watch any videoes, just show us the goods, else walk away and come back when they do.




    EQBallzzMendel

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Its Halloween again, and of course the Charlie Brown Great Pumpkin special.  Its all about pantheon if you didn't know.  I wrote about this a few Halloweens ago, its still relevant today unfortunately.

    ----

    Linus: "Each year, the Great Pantheon release rises out of the pre-alpha patch that he thinks is the most sincere. He's gotta pick this one. He's got to. I don't see how a pre-alpha patch can be more sincere than this one. You can look around and there's not a sign of hypocrisy. Nothing but sincerity as far as the eye can see."

    Linus: "You don't believe the story of the Great Pantheon release? I thought little girls always believed everything that was told to them. I thought little girls were innocent and trusting."
    Sally: "Welcome to the 20th Century!"

    Linus: "There are three things I've learned never to discuss with people: religion, politics, and the Great Pantheon release."

    Linus: "It'll come here because I have the most sincere pre-alpha patch and he respects sincerity."

    Linus: "Just wait 'til next year, Charlie Brown. You'll see! Next year at this same time, I'll find a pre-alpha patch that is real sincere and I'll sit in that pre-alpha patch until the Great Pantheon releases. He'll rise out of that pre-alpha patch and he'll fly through the air with his bag of toys. The Great Pantheon release will appear and I'll be waiting for him! I'll be there! I'll be sitting there in that pre-alpha patch... and I'll see the Great Pantheon release. Just wait and see, Charlie Brown."
    EQBallzz
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 280
    Is this a scam? 

    The real question for me is if it is an intentional scam or merely a scam of incompetency. 

    Let us not forget...

    EQ took how long to make? (3 years I think Brad had mentioned, with around 11 people) From scratch, with much less "helper" technology (ie pre-set development kits, streamlined languages and libraries, tools, historical knowledge to pull from, etc...).

    Apparently with all todays modern ability, we are left to believe that it should take this long to complete such a venture?

    Where are they? Pre-Alpha... still?

    hmm...
    MendelBrainyEQBallzz
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Tanist said:

    Apparently with all todays modern ability, we are left to believe that it should take this long to complete such a venture?

    Where are they? Pre-Alpha... still?
    I think this is a good point.   I always see people saying how these new engines that keep getting released are not just about graphics but have all these efficiency tools included to speed up development.

    And yet, here we are with a game that will take a decade OR MORE to make it to alpha.  

    Another example is DAOC took only 18 months.

    Something is disconnected.


  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    Tanist said:
    Is this a scam? 

    The real question for me is if it is an intentional scam or merely a scam of incompetency. 

    Let us not forget...

    EQ took how long to make? (3 years I think Brad had mentioned, with around 11 people) From scratch, with much less "helper" technology (ie pre-set development kits, streamlined languages and libraries, tools, historical knowledge to pull from, etc...).

    Apparently with all todays modern ability, we are left to believe that it should take this long to complete such a venture?

    Where are they? Pre-Alpha... still?

    hmm...
    Everquest had Sony backing it. This game is struggling to get funding. I don't think it is a scam but it may fail that is for sure.
    Garrus Signature
  • elyssariaelyssaria Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Brainy said:
    Tanist said:

    Apparently with all todays modern ability, we are left to believe that it should take this long to complete such a venture?

    Where are they? Pre-Alpha... still?
    I think this is a good point.   I always see people saying how these new engines that keep getting released are not just about graphics but have all these efficiency tools included to speed up development.

    And yet, here we are with a game that will take a decade OR MORE to make it to alpha.  

    Another example is DAOC took only 18 months.

    Something is disconnected.


    Well past performance is not a good indicator of future performance... Things has changed and games are way more complete to make even with better tools  -->

    About Camelot Unchained
    The game's very first teaser was released in December 2012, so it's certain that we've been waiting 10 years for the game's development to complete and release.
    KyleranBrainy
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,427
    edited November 2022
    One thing that does seem clear, a thread about whether Pantheon is a scam which started in 2014 is likely going to be still debated in 2024. S.t.r.e.t.c.h those development goals, have they announced a board game yet? :)
    EQBallzz
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    cheyane said:
    Everquest had Sony backing it. This game is struggling to get funding. I don't think it is a scam but it may fail that is for sure.

    Well, didn't they just raise 2.4 mil?  I think they said that was 50% of what they had already received.  So that's about $4.8mil so far, if that info is correct.

    EQ cost 8mil (1999) and 3yrs to develop.  Using an inflation calculator, that would be equal to $15mil (2022).  So it does seem like that are a bit short.

    Wow cost 63mil (2004), $113mil (2022)

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,058
    Brainy said:
    cheyane said:
    Everquest had Sony backing it. This game is struggling to get funding. I don't think it is a scam but it may fail that is for sure.

    Well, didn't they just raise 2.4 mil?  I think they said that was 50% of what they had already received.  So that's about $4.8mil so far, if that info is correct.

    EQ cost 8mil (1999) and 3yrs to develop.  Using an inflation calculator, that would be equal to $15mil (2022).  So it does seem like that are a bit short.

    Wow cost 63mil (2004), $113mil (2022)

    Embers Adrift team managed to raise $4.8M overall? If so, that might be the most impressive thing about their efforts.


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • GrummusGrummus Member UncommonPosts: 152
    Of course not. Why would you think that? The entire MMO genre is in a very healthy, scam-prohibitive state.
    ScotEQBallzz
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 280
    cheyane said:
    Tanist said:
    Is this a scam? 

    The real question for me is if it is an intentional scam or merely a scam of incompetency. 

    Let us not forget...

    EQ took how long to make? (3 years I think Brad had mentioned, with around 11 people) From scratch, with much less "helper" technology (ie pre-set development kits, streamlined languages and libraries, tools, historical knowledge to pull from, etc...).

    Apparently with all todays modern ability, we are left to believe that it should take this long to complete such a venture?

    Where are they? Pre-Alpha... still?

    hmm...
    Everquest had Sony backing it. This game is struggling to get funding. I don't think it is a scam but it may fail that is for sure.
    Still, the team was around 11 people or so, and the budget If I remember right Brad mentioned was around 3 million or so. 

    Point is, this was during a time where fancy development tools and libraries did not exist for games of this nature. Network technology was greatly limited in throughput and functionality, hardware space was limited, and graphical processing for 3D technology was in its adolescent years (which created numerous hurdles for them in development).

    On top of that, there was no history of development to pull from, no experienced people who had worked on such projects, no lessons already learned, and pitfalls to avoid with such knowledge. 

    Now to be fair, EQ was nowhere near as complex as the many systems in games today, but... that is where a lot of these development tools, libraries, etc... step in which streamlines a lot of the process so you don't have to create everything from scratch and test to see if it would even work. 

    Again, how many years and they are not even in Alpha yet?

    I think if EQ took this long to develop, it would have never been released. 






     
    MendelEQBallzz
  • HengistHengist Member RarePosts: 1,315
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Kyleran said:
    Sovrath said:
    *shrug*


    I often wonder if game developers add all sorts of "detail" that they feel is needed but they know, deep down inside, that no one will ever know.

    I could take you to several areas in FO76 where the developers created some elaborate landscape features which seemed incomplete as far too much detail was done in them with almost no purpose.

    Theory is there was a plan for them to be more, perhaps meant to have their own story / quests but were never finished since management decided to rush the game out the door "on time" but certainly too early.

    I still go back and check them regularly to see if they might get an update but so far most of them remain as testaments to what might have been, probably appropriate for a post nuclear holocaust future.
    I have seen a few articles were designers talk about all the stuff they put in that players sail by and hardly notice. That was back in the day when playing one or at most two games at a time was the norm, heaven knows how bad developers think that is now.
    There is a well hidden chamber in the deepest depths of the Lucky Hole Mine with a very creepy ill formed creature and some giant metal heads which I've introduced several new players to.

    We all have enjoyed speculating what it's about based on some brief bits of Mothman lore found on various notes, holo tapes, and computer terminals.

    We knew there was some sort of evil god like being being worshipped by cultists, and before the introduction of human NPCs a few years post launch there wasn't anything praying to anyone, just a horde of mutant mole miners which were replaced by cultists after that.

    It was noted the giant metal heads were the same faces as found in the nearby town of Watoga, but no explanation on how or why these got to the bottom of the mine.

    Now that's all anyone knew however I just Googled it again and now there's an elaborate backstory about the Interloper on the wiki but I think it's a creative fan fabrication woven from the actual in game material or I have just totally missed some huge portion of content which is highly unlikely.

    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/The_Interloper


    I read that, sat for about 30 seconds, and went to re-install the game, just because I have to go see that.  Just one of those things that I totally missed, and I remember the Mothman lore, always wondered why they didn't do more with it.

    It's bee 18 months, since I played, and I doubt I'll play for more than a couple of days, but just hearing that, and knowing that I missed it...lol, gotta go see!

    Not sure I've ever re-installed something to do that before, but that's one of the small pleasure and enjoyments of games. Those little, and sometimes trivial details that are put there, and your imagination ends up filling the gaps!


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