I've Given Up

Wargfoot · June 2023

I enjoy visiting MMORPG because I like to see what is new; however, in the end I'm usually disappointed because the majority of titles are pretty much the same sort of thing or have elements that are distasteful.

I can cite a few things that kill a game for me:

Theorycrafting:

FROM: Calculations went from +2 sword + base damage

TO: +2 sword + base damage + racial bonus + proficiency + level - opponents armor - opponents race - moon phase - favorite pizza topping x mitigations / abstractions + gear score - gear score + dozens of other seemingly idiotic numbers. Because of this we end up with one build to rule them all and that is stupid and boring. So I open a new game an the first thing I need to figure out is not the game world, but several pages of calculations to figure out how to proceed on my build - and step through a predetermined adventures to get the best build.

Levels:
It irks me to no end that my level 35 paladin cannot kill a level 39 wisp no matter what I do - but the moment I hit level 41 I can mow through a hoard of wisps and they don't even damage me. The level gated MOBS are ridiculous and leave no room for doing something clever. Levels are bad and if you make a game with levels you're bad at game design.

I'm basically just playing Minecraft now.
I like to be able to impact the environment around me, the lack of levels, and the simplicity of it (it can be as complicated as you want to make it). I can use redstone to automate stuffs or find it on my own or buy it - there are many avenues and great potential for innovation. I like to create villages most of all by finding a location, rescuing an NPC, and building a whole town.

I guess that is where I'll be, in a 12 year old title, until someone gets MMORPGs figured out.
I'd take a polished UO at this point.

Nanfoodle · June 2023

I have taken a break from MMOs as well. I have done just about every major MMO and I have come to the conclusion that my attention span is about 6-12 month depending on the quality of the MMO. I have about 5 MMOs I used to rotate between as they got new content and they just dont give me a rush anymore. The content is predictable, so I have gone back to my roots, console gaming. If Xbox runs out of content, I will buy a PS and spend a few years doing their content. I do have about 2-5 MMOs in the works that have me still chomping at the bit but they are all 1-6 years away. Why wait! I will hang out here and talk about games with the geezers that like games but its seems to be more about general games over MMOs. Best to ya!

delete5230 · June 2023

I'll say it first,
Can I have your stuff

Theocritus · June 2023

Wargfoot said:

I enjoy visiting MMORPG because I like to see what is new; however, in the end I'm usually disappointed because the majority of titles are pretty much the same sort of thing or have elements that are distasteful.

I can cite a few things that kill a game for me:

Theorycrafting:

FROM: Calculations went from +2 sword + base damage

TO: +2 sword + base damage + racial bonus + proficiency + level - opponents armor - opponents race - moon phase - favorite pizza topping x mitigations / abstractions + gear score - gear score + dozens of other seemingly idiotic numbers. Because of this we end up with one build to rule them all and that is stupid and boring. So I open a new game an the first thing I need to figure out is not the game world, but several pages of calculations to figure out how to proceed on my build - and step through a predetermined adventures to get the best build.

Levels:
It irks me to no end that my level 35 paladin cannot kill a level 39 wisp no matter what I do - but the moment I hit level 41 I can mow through a hoard of wisps and they don't even damage me. The level gated MOBS are ridiculous and leave no room for doing something clever. Levels are bad and if you make a game with levels you're bad at game design.

I'm basically just playing Minecraft now.
I like to be able to impact the environment around me, the lack of levels, and the simplicity of it (it can be as complicated as you want to make it). I can use redstone to automate stuffs or find it on my own or buy it - there are many avenues and great potential for innovation. I like to create villages most of all by finding a location, rescuing an NPC, and building a whole town.

I guess that is where I'll be, in a 12 year old title, until someone gets MMORPGs figured out.
I'd take a polished UO at this point.

Minecraft just didnt work for me, at least not on the server I played on...Other than build (and everything was pretty much already built), there was absolutely nothing to do..... Im not sure we ever see an innovative MMO again....They just wont take the risks unless maybe an indie will.....I havent enjoyed a single one in the past decade or so.....FFXIV, ESO, GW2, and all the others like those just dont do it for me.

Wargfoot · June 2023

Theocritus said:
Minecraft just didnt work for me, at least not on the server I played on...Other than build (and everything was pretty much already built), there was absolutely nothing to do..... Im not sure we ever see an innovative MMO again....They just wont take the risks unless maybe an indie will.....I havent enjoyed a single one in the past decade or so.....FFXIV, ESO, GW2, and all the others like those just dont do it for me.

I guess I'm the opposite of you in that regard.
I typically enjoy games where I can set my own goals.

So for me, the satisfaction is creating a village and keeping it safe.
I've several different ways I can accomplish that task.
Nothing in the Minecraft documentation that makes that a goal.

Dattelis · June 2023

I'm still in the camp of 'gear score' kind of ruining mmorpgs as a whole since most adopt that system. It was nice to play something back in the day like Ragnarok Online where the actual item mattered and not the level of it. Like you could craft elemental weapons that would do double damage to mobs weak to it, so even if it was like half the level of a higher level weapon, it could still do more damage depending on what you were fighting. Even wow had the whole resistance thing in vanilla until they eventually fell off over time. At the end of the day, its just lazy development, not really the 'times.' Its easy to pump out 'content' 3-6 months at a time on a conveyor belt of numbers with the only real thing to think about is how it looks. WoW retail is a good example of this. Most classes will be farming the same items over again when the new patch drops thanks to scaling and maybe 'chase' something in the new raid. It isn't really appealing to me that my 'best' trinket is still the same one I've been using but I need to farm it again because the item level increased.

Wargfoot · June 2023

Dattelis said:

I'm still in the camp of 'gear score' kind of ruining mmorpgs as a whole since most adopt that system. It was nice to play something back in the day like Ragnarok Online where the actual item mattered and not the level of it. Like you could craft elemental weapons that would do double damage to mobs weak to it, so even if it was like half the level of a higher level weapon, it could still do more damage depending on what you were fighting. Even wow had the whole resistance thing in vanilla until they eventually fell off over time. At the end of the day, its just lazy development, not really the 'times.' Its easy to pump out 'content' 3-6 months at a time on a conveyor belt of numbers with the only real thing to think about is how it looks. WoW retail is a good example of this. Most classes will be farming the same items over again when the new patch drops thanks to scaling and maybe 'chase' something in the new raid. It isn't really appealing to me that my 'best' trinket is still the same one I've been using but I need to farm it again because the item level increased.

Exactly.

I hate it that I cannot use a katana because I'm not high enough level, I get it and it is powerful for a bit, and then I level and now it is garbage.

ValdemarJ · June 2023

MMO combat calculations have always been rather complex because that's how they incorporate diminishing returns and caps while making it harder for the player to see that.

Mostly, I think it could be just you and the fact your tastes have changed. Mine have as well. Most MMOs now seem like dumbed down versions of their better cousins, appealing to the lowest common denominator of player engagement.

I want something more than that which is why I play survival crafting builders. They let me be creative and offer a lot of agency and freedom.

If you like Minecraft, you might like Portal Knights, which can be played single or multiplayer. It is a voxel-based builder with some RPG built into it. There are quests and levels and such, but also you can just build your stuff. It's worth checking out.

If you like shooters, then 7 Days to Die can be an amazing experience. There are full conversion mods (like in Skyrim) that completely change the experience and setting.

Talin · June 2023

I understand your concerns OP, but I don't think broad statements that "levels are bad design" are necessarily true. There are hundreds (thousands?) of different ways to implement a level system and all have their purposes (whether to measure incremental increases, limit access to certain skills/abilities, gate/control content, etc.).

I personally agree with you that locking down equipment and content to levels is just plain silly. If you think about weapons under a simple system of materials and effectiveness, you could consider an example such as copper --> iron --> steel --> mythril. If the character obtains a steel sword at a low level, their effectiveness should increase. They shouldn't have to wait until level "X" to use it; they have proficiency in the weapon and should be able to use a stronger version of it.

Skills are a different story, as they represent proficiency in class competencies that should unlock new and more effective abilities over time (like how a gymnast first practices and masters walking on a balance beam before they start working on backflips).

Overall combat effectiveness is a combination of equipment and skills so gating equipment has always felt punitive to me. If a high-level player gave you a new sword in Everquest you would be able to kill enemies your level much faster (and possibly a few levels above), but wouldn't be able to fight enemies at the level of the mobs that would have dropped the sword.

I suspect most gaming systems limit access to avoid power-levelling, but I think that's just plain silly. There are always countless ways to help power-level characters directly or indirectly. Most MMORPGs are tolerated through the levelling to get to the end game; if someone can help someone else get there a bit faster or make them feel stronger for a period of time, I personally don't see any reason why not.

Nanfoodle · June 2023

ValdemarJ said:

MMO combat calculations have always been rather complex because that's how they incorporate diminishing returns and caps while making it harder for the player to see that.

Mostly, I think it could be just you and the fact your tastes have changed. Mine have as well. Most MMOs now seem like dumbed down versions of their better cousins, appealing to the lowest common denominator of player engagement.

I want something more than that which is why I play survival crafting builders. They let me be creative and offer a lot of agency and freedom.

If you like Minecraft, you might like Portal Knights, which can be played single or multiplayer. It is a voxel-based builder with some RPG built into it. There are quests and levels and such, but also you can just build your stuff. It's worth checking out.

If you like shooters, then 7 Days to Die can be an amazing experience. There are full conversion mods (like in Skyrim) that completely change the experience and setting.

I own Portal Knights on Xbox. It goes on sale all the time, also on Steam. It has allot more depth then it looks like on the surface. 100% agree

peanutabc · June 2023

huh?

I thought the problem with mmorpgs is they are jack of all trades master of none and it's not good enough when you can just play something else and have a better quality experience.

cameltosis · June 2023

I haven't given up, but I have passed the 10 year mark without finding a new MMO home.

So, I really should give up!

But, this is the genre that provided me with my highest highs of gaming, so im unwilling to give up on it! I also think it's the genre with the most untapped potential, which gives me hope for the future.

Nanfoodle · June 2023

cameltosis said:

I haven't given up, but I have passed the 10 year mark without finding a new MMO home.

So, I really should give up!

But, this is the genre that provided me with my highest highs of gaming, so im unwilling to give up on it! I also think it's the genre with the most untapped potential, which gives me hope for the future.

Played EQ1 for 10 years, played DAoC at the same time for 5 years of that. Was my gaming high I have been chasing. WoW and ESO both horrible mentions for me. WoW from launch till Wrath of the Litch King and it just died for me. I tried almost every expansion but the last one and nothing clicked. ESO would still be holding my business if Cyrdill was not broken. Brought me right back to DAoC quality. Just holding hope lol

Sensai · June 2023

Wargfoot said:

Dattelis said:

I'm still in the camp of 'gear score' kind of ruining mmorpgs as a whole since most adopt that system. It was nice to play something back in the day like Ragnarok Online where the actual item mattered and not the level of it. Like you could craft elemental weapons that would do double damage to mobs weak to it, so even if it was like half the level of a higher level weapon, it could still do more damage depending on what you were fighting. Even wow had the whole resistance thing in vanilla until they eventually fell off over time. At the end of the day, its just lazy development, not really the 'times.' Its easy to pump out 'content' 3-6 months at a time on a conveyor belt of numbers with the only real thing to think about is how it looks. WoW retail is a good example of this. Most classes will be farming the same items over again when the new patch drops thanks to scaling and maybe 'chase' something in the new raid. It isn't really appealing to me that my 'best' trinket is still the same one I've been using but I need to farm it again because the item level increased.

Exactly.

I hate it that I cannot use a katana because I'm not high enough level, I get it and it is powerful for a bit, and then I level and now it is garbage.

So you want a system where you get a drop in the first 5 minutes of playing and use it for a year or more? While i agree with you point on theory crafting for the most part, i completely disagree with your stance on levels and drops. I think you are just looking in the wrong genre.

Grymmoire · June 2023

Want pure exasperation? Get your spreadsheets out and wade through the morass of crazy effects; proc conditions; some items denoting critical chance with others critical chance % (you do the conversion, the devs were to lazy); skill interactions etc. in ESO. Way to much really, since only about 20 or so sets are really useful, but, the beat goes on, and on and on......

Wargfoot · June 2023

Sensai said:

So you want a system where you get a drop in the first 5 minutes of playing and use it for a year or more? While i agree with you point on theory crafting for the most part, i completely disagree with your stance on levels and drops. I think you are just looking in the wrong genre.

It is okay if you want something different.

But I want more of this:

I can go up against a lich in UO with a regular weapon.
I can farm liches just fine; however, it is a bit risky and a room full of liches would be problematic.

However, in UO if I find a silver mace and can mow down liches with great ease and devastate a room of them.

^--- So there a regular weapon is okay; whereas, a somewhat rare weapon (silver) is spectacular. I may keep the silver weapon for years and it is useful regardless of my proficiency or level.

I may have a collection of weapons/armor for different circumstances - some of those specialized weapons may take a long time to find (never did find a vanquishing weapon) but I'm not powerless without them.

Contrast that with level gated gear and dungeon where a level 25 cannot even harm a level 35 MOB - despite having the best gear (at his level). As soon as he reaches level 26 his current gear set is garbage and the grind starts over again.

So a named weapon I found that I hang onto for years - or that I crafted - sign me up.

Matching level/class specific gear that everyone at my level/class has = boring.

mekhere · June 2023

Wargfoot said:

I enjoy visiting MMORPG because I like to see what is new; however, in the end I'm usually disappointed because the majority of titles are pretty much the same sort of thing or have elements that are distasteful.

I can cite a few things that kill a game for me:

Theorycrafting:

FROM: Calculations went from +2 sword + base damage

TO: +2 sword + base damage + racial bonus + proficiency + level - opponents armor - opponents race - moon phase - favorite pizza topping x mitigations / abstractions + gear score - gear score + dozens of other seemingly idiotic numbers. Because of this we end up with one build to rule them all and that is stupid and boring. So I open a new game an the first thing I need to figure out is not the game world, but several pages of calculations to figure out how to proceed on my build - and step through a predetermined adventures to get the best build.

Levels:
It irks me to no end that my level 35 paladin cannot kill a level 39 wisp no matter what I do - but the moment I hit level 41 I can mow through a hoard of wisps and they don't even damage me. The level gated MOBS are ridiculous and leave no room for doing something clever. Levels are bad and if you make a game with levels you're bad at game design.

I'm basically just playing Minecraft now.
I like to be able to impact the environment around me, the lack of levels, and the simplicity of it (it can be as complicated as you want to make it). I can use redstone to automate stuffs or find it on my own or buy it - there are many avenues and great potential for innovation. I like to create villages most of all by finding a location, rescuing an NPC, and building a whole town.

I guess that is where I'll be, in a 12 year old title, until someone gets MMORPGs figured out.
I'd take a polished UO at this point.

Never give up. AI will give us New Worlds, New Balance and New Monies. Your dead inside and I know the feeling. I promise AI will bring your heart back. We can wage war in a much better environment, with much more people this time.

Kyleran · June 2023

Nanfoodle said:

ValdemarJ said:

MMO combat calculations have always been rather complex because that's how they incorporate diminishing returns and caps while making it harder for the player to see that.

Mostly, I think it could be just you and the fact your tastes have changed. Mine have as well. Most MMOs now seem like dumbed down versions of their better cousins, appealing to the lowest common denominator of player engagement.

I want something more than that which is why I play survival crafting builders. They let me be creative and offer a lot of agency and freedom.

If you like Minecraft, you might like Portal Knights, which can be played single or multiplayer. It is a voxel-based builder with some RPG built into it. There are quests and levels and such, but also you can just build your stuff. It's worth checking out.

If you like shooters, then 7 Days to Die can be an amazing experience. There are full conversion mods (like in Skyrim) that completely change the experience and setting.

I own Portal Knights on Xbox. It goes on sale all the time, also on Steam. It has allot more depth then it looks like on the surface. 100% agree

Playing 7DTD with some on a private server for the foreseeable future.

Soon I shall acheive the exhalted title of "Shotgun Messiah."

Sovrath · June 2023

Wargfoot said:

Sensai said:

So you want a system where you get a drop in the first 5 minutes of playing and use it for a year or more? While i agree with you point on theory crafting for the most part, i completely disagree with your stance on levels and drops. I think you are just looking in the wrong genre.

It is okay if you want something different.

But I want more of this:

I can go up against a lich in UO with a regular weapon.
I can farm liches just fine; however, it is a bit risky and a room full of liches would be problematic.

However, in UO if I find a silver mace and can mow down liches with great ease and devastate a room of them.

^--- So there a regular weapon is okay; whereas, a somewhat rare weapon (silver) is spectacular. I may keep the silver weapon for years and it is useful regardless of my proficiency or level.

I may have a collection of weapons/armor for different circumstances - some of those specialized weapons may take a long time to find (never did find a vanquishing weapon) but I'm not powerless without them.

Contrast that with level gated gear and dungeon where a level 25 cannot even harm a level 35 MOB - despite having the best gear (at his level). As soon as he reaches level 26 his current gear set is garbage and the grind starts over again.

So a named weapon I found that I hang onto for years - or that I crafted - sign me up.

Matching level/class specific gear that everyone at my level/class has = boring.

I actually agree. I've ALWAYS thought leveled gear and bound gear was ridiculous. The Ultima Online example you give is much more to my taste.

MMORPG's don't have to have leveled gear. They just do in order to keep people playing. So many people are in it for the shinies.

Gorwe · June 2023

Wait until you see the way how Resistances are calculated in Diablo 4! Some real spaghetti code! Probably bugged too(who would've guessed).

As for MMOs? Unless they have an actually interesting setting or gameplay or I have some kind of attachment to the specific mmo in question, I also gave up. Why would I bother with this monolithic venture when I have byte sized doses of pleasure? And it's the Age of Net, I no longer really need them for socialization either. Half-dead genre if you ask me. But such things change in a heartbeat.

Sandmanjw · June 2023

Waiting on the perfect MMO is like winning the lottery. Probably never gonna happen.

Might I suggest people look into some subscription services to pass the time?

Places like X-box/pc game pass, has lots and lots of great games to pass the time with. And once you get your enjoyment back at good games, well, then you can go re-visit some of your favorite old MMO's maybe.

But, be careful, you might learn what you have been missing while playing some great single player games and not care about the never ending wait for the "good" MMO.

Theocritus · June 2023

cameltosis said:

I haven't given up, but I have passed the 10 year mark without finding a new MMO home.

So, I really should give up!

But, this is the genre that provided me with my highest highs of gaming, so im unwilling to give up on it! I also think it's the genre with the most untapped potential, which gives me hope for the future.

I have found good games outside the genre like Fallout 76 and 7 Days to Die...... MMOs now just arent like they were in EQs heyday.....I feel unneeded in MMOs now as pretty everyone can do everything in many more modern MMOs.....I think what made EQ work for me was the uniqueness of the classes and how all of them could fit into a group setting.......Plus players were willing to group, something they are not as willing to do now (and they dont need to really)

Wargfoot · June 2023

Sovrath said:

MMORPG's don't have to have leveled gear. They just do in order to keep people playing. So many people are in it for the shinies.

As you well know, level 10 with a sword that does 10pts of damage against a 100hp orc is exactly the same experience as level 20 with a sword that does 20pts of damage against a 200hp orc.

Once you realize that most MMORPGs become boring really fast.

I do think it is interesting that as I read this thread people seem to be running off to survival games of one sort or another. I think because the player knowledge matters more there and that is fun.

Knowing where to find a resource or the best defense against a zombie or tinkering with traps and such engages the player more, IMHO.

Sovrath · June 2023

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

MMORPG's don't have to have leveled gear. They just do in order to keep people playing. So many people are in it for the shinies.

As you well know, level 10 with a sword that does 10pts of damage against a 100hp orc is exactly the same experience as level 20 with a sword that does 20pts of damage against a 200hp orc.

Once you realize that most MMORPGs become boring really fast.

I do think it is interesting that as I read this thread people seem to be running off to survival games of one sort or another. I think because the player knowledge matters more there and that is fun.

Knowing where to find a resource or the best defense against a zombie or tinkering with traps and such engages the player more, IMHO.

The whole better gear to fight better enemies is just gated content. In your example I'd rather have the sword always do 10 pts of damage. Maybe a better one do 12 and an inferior one do 8.

Angrakhan · June 2023

I gave up a long time ago when I realized all MMOs are built to only reward people who dedicate their life to them. The more time the better. This just isn't healthy mentally or physically, and it certainly is incompatible with anyone who has aspirations higher than being in a top tier raiding guild. Oh you want a successful career AND a family that loves and respects you? Move along, scrub, no room for casuals here. I couldn't care less about the OPs little diatribe on game mechanics, that's the reason I gave up and really I have enjoyed life much more since I did. Why am I even on a site named MMORPG? Primarily for all the MMO-lite and adjacent games out there which this site covers. I can still enjoy and be successful at those because they don't require marathon gaming sessions in raids or the obligations that come with being a part of a raiding lifestyle. Oh sorry, son, I know you wanted to go to the park with me today, but I have to main tank our big raid in daddy's video game! Yeah that conversation goes over real well. How many of you have had some version of that conversation with your family or friends at some point? PSA: it's not worth it.

Scot · June 2023

What I have come to accept is that MMORPGS are no longer the best genre out there, I will return to them but I am not expecting them to be as good as they once were. Also key to that is being in a guild, a guild can work around a whole host of modern MMO issues. You just need to find players like you and there are whole guilds of players like us in fact.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV