Seriously, one of my main, issues with WoW nowadays was language. Doesn't matter your alignment . Language was my utter issue. It's been, since, taken care of, in a garbage way. But
But real, hardcore ally vs horde.... stuff (even though it was barely there).... is gone.
In terms of............................... content, I read a lot of this and........ seriously gated content (week to week, if not 1 week every 3 weeks) is quite possibly wow''s biggest gatekeeping downfall, if not fun downfall. Since xpac release it's been basically garbage.
As a nobody/ conglomerate of classes... give CLASSES fun reasons for being classes...... same with D4.... ... ... .. . .. . ....
I think interesting balance could be struck by handling gear differently.
Imagine needing fire protection gear to hunt imps - well, not needing it, but it making the task much less dangerous. So you're hunting imps with your fire protection gear and player killers teleport into the zone and attack.
The imps prefer "dark souls" and so they immediately target the player killers.
The player killers may have good gear for attacking other players OR they could have good gear for protection against imps. The player killer has to choose between maximum damage against another player or maximum protection against imps.
It isn't a perfect idea but in my mind illustrates something other than current gear progression in most games where your max weapon is THE MAX weapon for every encounter/circumstance/dungeon crawl. With horizontal progression (a variety of gear everyone can use) vs. vertical progression (one ring to rule them all) the strategies can change up.
This sort of variety lends itself to variety across the board, for example, now potions of fire protection become important to the PK, but gosh, they're expensive and don't last long.... oh, and only good aligned players can create them so now money flows back to the good guys.
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
But would you say the modern MMO is characterised by short raids? My argument is that moat casuals will find that level of organisation too complex. Or at least studios think it is too complex for them. This leads to less structed endgame play like Boss fights where you just turn up. To my mind it is not that casuals can't do something like a raid it is that studios are playing to the lowest common denominator of that group, those who can't be bothered with something other than turning up and fighting without any sort of strategy.
After 45 minutes of waiting around we did the raid, which was heavily choreographed, only to be told that we'd need to repeat it dozens of times to equip everyone - in gear that would be rendered obsolete in the next expansion.
Off-the-wall suggestion, but have you tried Death Stranding? It's like the Un-MMO. Very meta, and profound. It's quickly becoming one of my favorite games, ever, and certainly the most unique I've played in a very long time.
Playing it for a few hours may give you a newfound appreciation for some of the tropes you highlight.
Fair warning: it starts like a walking simulator in Iceland, and
veers suddenly into terrifying, high-concept horror territory. Saiko!
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Most MMORPGs are tolerated through the levelling to get to the end game;
Why should most players have to tolerate 1 system just to get to another system they like? Doesnt make alot of sense to me.
Part of this is the player's fault. Why buy a game where you hate 99% of the content?
Granted, I think this problem is going away. You've got games where you instantly have tiered PvP available. You've got games where the whole point is farming/crafting with no PvP whatsoever. In some ways it is a good time to be a gamer.
In short, there is probably a title out there where you start, and indeed the entire game, is what you'd consider endgame.
That spurs a thought: Maybe 'endgame' is a dead concept?
I agree with the OP on leveling limiting gameplay, it also limits people able to play with friends at different levels. Its a very anti-social mechanic which is a huge problem for new MMORPG as they should be encouraging social behaviors.
I dont necessarily agree with the theorycrafting. I like having different weapons with all kinds of different traits. UO had lots of attributes on gear, this was some of the best part of UO to me.
What I dont like is how its always stacking crit hit/dmg, attack speed as the meta.
In your silver mace example, I like how different mobs with weaknesses and it up to the player to bring the right equipment to maximize effectiveness. Using the right gear made a BIG difference. I think the main reason MMO's have stopped this, is because for some reason they want players to have limited inventory. Now they want everyone to have 1 weapon of UBERNESS that everyone strives for, that they use for every situation.
In todays age when storage is CHEAP and massive compared to 20 years ago, you would think allowing people to have massive inventory/storage would not be a problem considering these are just a tiny amounts of text. However new games limit storage all the time.
UO didn't start with gear with all of those modifiers and specs on. That came about with what I think was their last major update, about 10-12 years ago.
Originally UO had 3 aspects on gear that had 5 levels of power. This was for both weapons and armor. The 3 aspects involved - damage - accuracy chance to hit - durability The 5 levels was a simple +1-5 bonus or negative modifier.
There were no magical effects. This was based on the Smith's skill, and it was a chance to make it. So a sword made by a master smith had a chance to be up to +5 in each of those aspects, and a weapon with +5 in all of them was very rare.
Honestly, I don't like all of this modern day gear game play. It's too much. And as you illustrate, a player "has to" carry multiples of gear and switch out. That just sucks, in my opinion. It takes up valuable backpack space, and then you get into extremes of "believability." I mean, we don't read about the famous battles of the ancient past where warriors changed their armor right in the middle of combat, nor that they had 10 different weapons of each type to make use of the best options vs. opponents. (Some, yes, maybe 3 weapon types.)
I'd much rather see most of that accomplished by using various skills and special moves. Add in some magical defenses on rings and necklaces that can be switched out, in a more believable sense that fits fantasy gaming. Also some magical capabilities on gear, to a limit. But don't allow quick changes of armor or weapons. There should be a time cost, and in the case of armor there should be the chance that you get a full damage hit while you're taking one piece off, if you want to do that in the middle of battle.
I don't like all of this gear complication. It's so "gamey", to me. It doesn't feel right.
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
I totally agree on fast travel. I loved UO's Runestone system for teleports and gates. A player, one way or another, can catch up with their friends instantly, and the group can get to their objectives for the evening's entertainment. And leave just as fast.
I liked how someone had to actually magically "mark" a runestone first before it could be used. That left exploration in play.
Best of all, for those players who don't want to explore, they don't have to. They can make use of other's "marked" runestones. They were sold at player vendors, and some players even made "Rune Libraries" in their homes for other players to use the runestones "in place" to get where they wanted to go. It was a marvelous system, all in all.
Most MMORPGs are tolerated through the levelling to get to the end game;
Why should most players have to tolerate 1 system just to get to another system they like? Doesnt make alot of sense to me.
Part of this is the player's fault. Why buy a game where you hate 99% of the content?
Granted, I think this problem is going away. You've got games where you instantly have tiered PvP available. You've got games where the whole point is farming/crafting with no PvP whatsoever. In some ways it is a good time to be a gamer.
In short, there is probably a title out there where you start, and indeed the entire game, is what you'd consider endgame.
That spurs a thought: Maybe 'endgame' is a dead concept?
I don't think endgame is dead as a concept.
In my mind, I liken the MMO situation to education versus work in real life.
The leveling process is like going to school. You feel like you are learning a lot, you certainly acquire a lot of knowledge, but it's ultimately pretty easy and not very useful by itself.
But then you graduate and enter the "real" world. This is where you learn to apply all that useless knowledge you picked up in school. This is not really about learning new skills in a controlled environment, it's about learning how to apply knowledge and critical thinking to actual problems. This is endgame.
I can enviage MMORPGs which are pure endgame, or pure leveling, but I don't think either would be particularly successful.
Pure endgame, with no leveling, would be awesome but extremely overwhelming for new players. It'd be like starting a new technical job......with no prior training. Like being a server administrator without ever having touched a server before. Its possible, you can learn on the job......but most people would just quit.
Pure leveling, with no endgame, would be easy but short sighted. We have a ton of single player RPGs like this already. They can be fun, the first time, but unless u care about story they can be extremely disappointing. Like, you spend 40+ hours learning all these skills, building up an amazing gear set, creating a connection with your character......and then the game ends before you get to do anything.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Most MMORPGs are tolerated through the levelling to get to the end game;
Why should most players have to tolerate 1 system just to get to another system they like? Doesnt make alot of sense to me.
Part of this is the player's fault. Why buy a game where you hate 99% of the content?
Granted, I think this problem is going away. You've got games where you instantly have tiered PvP available. You've got games where the whole point is farming/crafting with no PvP whatsoever. In some ways it is a good time to be a gamer.
In short, there is probably a title out there where you start, and indeed the entire game, is what you'd consider endgame.
That spurs a thought: Maybe 'endgame' is a dead concept?
I don't think endgame is dead as a concept.
In my mind, I liken the MMO situation to education versus work in real life.
The leveling process is like going to school. You feel like you are learning a lot, you certainly acquire a lot of knowledge, but it's ultimately pretty easy and not very useful by itself.
But then you graduate and enter the "real" world. This is where you learn to apply all that useless knowledge you picked up in school. This is not really about learning new skills in a controlled environment, it's about learning how to apply knowledge and critical thinking to actual problems. This is endgame.
I can enviage MMORPGs which are pure endgame, or pure leveling, but I don't think either would be particularly successful.
Pure endgame, with no leveling, would be awesome but extremely overwhelming for new players. It'd be like starting a new technical job......with no prior training. Like being a server administrator without ever having touched a server before. Its possible, you can learn on the job......but most people would just quit.
Pure leveling, with no endgame, would be easy but short sighted. We have a ton of single player RPGs like this already. They can be fun, the first time, but unless u care about story they can be extremely disappointing. Like, you spend 40+ hours learning all these skills, building up an amazing gear set, creating a connection with your character......and then the game ends before you get to do anything.
This brings up a question to consider. Is there any kind of game play that doesn't eventually hit that hard >END<? Developers cannot keep up with content demands as it is, we've seen that. What else is there to do? What doesn't hit that "end-wall"?
After 45 minutes of waiting around we did the raid, which was heavily choreographed, only to be told that we'd need to repeat it dozens of times to equip everyone - in gear that would be rendered obsolete in the next expansion.
Didn't go back
Had that happen in WoW.....new players would join the guild, we had to run them through dungeons, then many would leave or quit the game.....After a couple of weeks I had enough...It was a never ending nightmare.
By 'end game' I mean the reason you're doing all the work. So if you want to do top tier raids that would be the 'end game' and everything to get there would be the 'grind'.
In my mind, that is the only definition that makes sense because as soon as they add new levels and raids the 'end game' moves and the previous 'end game' becomes 'grind'.
So if 'end game' for you is PvP, just go play League of Legends and PvP right out of the box.
So if the 'end game' is story then play a heavy narrative single player title and get great story right out of the box.
So if the 'end game' is building stuffs play Minecraft.
The concept of an 'end game' (as a goal to reach - the part I really want to play) is outdated, unless you want to set up a cash shop to people can buy their way past the rest of the game - but then if you're going to spend that kind of money why not just buy a title that gets you what you want immediately?
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
Damn right. There are 3 things I hate:
1. Walking: Just running around and wasting time is NOT interesting to me. The first few times? Yes, it is awesome, but afterwards, please include some kind of teleportation. I keep getting reminded of Age of Conan. Beautiful, fun game, but god damn there is too much walking around, ricing stuff.
2. Inventory management: Yeah, if you ask me, all of these could be auto sorted icons and I wouldn't care one bit as long as it was easy to find what you're looking for. Inventory tetris? Gimme a break from year 1998!
3. General timewasters: Like cast timers to pick up things or cast timers to craft stuff. Can you tell I don't like the IMPLEMENTATION of crafting? As an idea, sure I love it. Be self sufficient while also making wondrous items? YES, PLEASE! But how it is implemented(just standing around doing barely more than ... inventory management)? HELL NO, GO AWAY!
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
Damn right. There are 3 things I hate:
1. Walking: Just running around and wasting time is NOT interesting to me. The first few times? Yes, it is awesome, but afterwards, please include some kind of teleportation. I keep getting reminded of Age of Conan. Beautiful, fun game, but god damn there is too much walking around, ricing stuff.
2. Inventory management: Yeah, if you ask me, all of these could be auto sorted icons and I wouldn't care one bit as long as it was easy to find what you're looking for. Inventory tetris? Gimme a break from year 1998!
3. General timewasters: Like cast timers to pick up things or cast timers to craft stuff. Can you tell I don't like the IMPLEMENTATION of crafting? As an idea, sure I love it. Be self sufficient while also making wondrous items? YES, PLEASE! But how it is implemented(just standing around doing barely more than ... inventory management)? HELL NO, GO AWAY!
I agree with the first 2, but not number 3. Crafting should be a part of the economic game. And that should be full of management. What games are doing is dumbing it down for those who don't like that economic game play, removing all challenge, simplifying it to the extreme, and removing that game play from those sorts of players who want it.
The idea that every player should get what they want, and to hell with everyone else, well, that just can't be done.
If a game wants a realistic simulation of a working economy, they should build that part of the game for those players.
Now some games may well want to make their game entirely for players like you, and basically remove "economy" from actual play and into a "here ya go" system for players like you, then that's their prerogative. No problem. But not all games should be made that way, and if we really want change for something new then games should make their economics for players who want a challenging simulation system.
After 45 minutes of waiting around we did the raid, which was heavily choreographed, only to be told that we'd need to repeat it dozens of times to equip everyone - in gear that would be rendered obsolete in the next expansion.
Didn't go back
This is what builds team spirit and a guild "one for all and all for one" feeling. In Lotro you tend to have alts and eventually your alt will need the gear. As to the gear being obsolete, you tend to need that gear to be ready for the next stage, but that's not always the case I must admit.
Also, maybe guilds are not for you, stick with your solo Warg in the Ettenmoors and pick of those Halflings!
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
Damn right. There are 3 things I hate:
1. Walking: Just running around and wasting time is NOT interesting to me. The first few times? Yes, it is awesome, but afterwards, please include some kind of teleportation. I keep getting reminded of Age of Conan. Beautiful, fun game, but god damn there is too much walking around, ricing stuff.
2. Inventory management: Yeah, if you ask me, all of these could be auto sorted icons and I wouldn't care one bit as long as it was easy to find what you're looking for. Inventory tetris? Gimme a break from year 1998!
3. General timewasters: Like cast timers to pick up things or cast timers to craft stuff. Can you tell I don't like the IMPLEMENTATION of crafting? As an idea, sure I love it. Be self sufficient while also making wondrous items? YES, PLEASE! But how it is implemented(just standing around doing barely more than ... inventory management)? HELL NO, GO AWAY!
I agree with the first 2, but not number 3. Crafting should be a part of the economic game. And that should be full of management. What games are doing is dumbing it down for those who don't like that economic game play, removing all challenge, simplifying it to the extreme, and removing that game play from those sorts of players who want it.
The idea that every player should get what they want, and to hell with everyone else, well, that just can't be done.
If a game wants a realistic simulation of a working economy, they should build that part of the game for those players.
Now some games may well want to make their game entirely for players like you, and basically remove "economy" from actual play and into a "here ya go" system for players like you, then that's their prerogative. No problem. But not all games should be made that way, and if we really want change for something new then games should make their economics for players who want a challenging simulation system.
You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about economy or whatever macro side of crafting. I was talking about the literal process of crafting. Most of time it is boring and that is exactly due to not being able to craft what you want(need). So at the very least the result of crafting is satisfactory. If not the process itself. Anyway, the goal would be to make the process more interesting, not to flood players(/marketplace) with self sufficient gear(etc). Vanguard tried to improve it, but it lead to only more clicking and annoyance.
Tbh? Not certain what can be done to improve the PROCESS OF CRAFTING.
UO didn't start with gear with all of those modifiers and specs on. That came about with what I think was their last major update, about 10-12 years ago.
FYI your timeline is off by a decade, AOS added all the loot changes. 2003. Thats 20 years ago. Also there was spells on items prior, not much thou, like clumsy, weaken, curse, etc..
Honestly, I don't like all of this modern day gear game play. It's too much. And as you illustrate, a player "has to" carry multiples of gear and switch out. That just sucks, in my opinion. It takes up valuable backpack space, and then you get into extremes of "believability."
Believability? Its a fantasy game afterall right? Are you trying to play a real life sim?
In fantasy you can just have a bag of holding, believability is solved. Even D&D had those.
I like all kinds of cool stuff put on items, spells, resistances, speed, damage, skill increases you name it, stick it on there. Let the customer decide what they want.
I cant stand having just 1 uber (weapon/armor set) of ownage that you bring to every single encounter for the rest of your gaming life. How dull.
Heck even in real life specialists have different gear with different attributes for different situations. You dont use rocket launchers for every encounter nor will a knife take down a helicopter at 500 feet.
Letting people aquire different equipment is a big part of the MMO experience. Pushing people into 1 single uber item is just boring.
How do you get that solo player sense of direction while catering for players only on for half an hour?
Its not hard really to make the MMO to people with less time. I also wouldnt necessarily call them casuals either. I have played with plenty of hardcore raiders that have limited time at night to get in, do the raid then leave. People work, have kids etc... they need their content in bite sizes.
Primarily they need easy teleportation. They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly. They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day. They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it. Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game. Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
Damn right. There are 3 things I hate:
1. Walking: Just running around and wasting time is NOT interesting to me. The first few times? Yes, it is awesome, but afterwards, please include some kind of teleportation. I keep getting reminded of Age of Conan. Beautiful, fun game, but god damn there is too much walking around, ricing stuff.
2. Inventory management: Yeah, if you ask me, all of these could be auto sorted icons and I wouldn't care one bit as long as it was easy to find what you're looking for. Inventory tetris? Gimme a break from year 1998!
3. General timewasters: Like cast timers to pick up things or cast timers to craft stuff. Can you tell I don't like the IMPLEMENTATION of crafting? As an idea, sure I love it. Be self sufficient while also making wondrous items? YES, PLEASE! But how it is implemented(just standing around doing barely more than ... inventory management)? HELL NO, GO AWAY!
I agree with the first 2, but not number 3. Crafting should be a part of the economic game. And that should be full of management. What games are doing is dumbing it down for those who don't like that economic game play, removing all challenge, simplifying it to the extreme, and removing that game play from those sorts of players who want it.
The idea that every player should get what they want, and to hell with everyone else, well, that just can't be done.
If a game wants a realistic simulation of a working economy, they should build that part of the game for those players.
Now some games may well want to make their game entirely for players like you, and basically remove "economy" from actual play and into a "here ya go" system for players like you, then that's their prerogative. No problem. But not all games should be made that way, and if we really want change for something new then games should make their economics for players who want a challenging simulation system.
You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about economy or whatever macro side of crafting. I was talking about the literal process of crafting. Most of time it is boring and that is exactly due to not being able to craft what you want(need). So at the very least the result of crafting is satisfactory. If not the process itself. Anyway, the goal would be to make the process more interesting, not to flood players(/marketplace) with self sufficient gear(etc). Vanguard tried to improve it, but it lead to only more clicking and annoyance.
Tbh? Not certain what can be done to improve the PROCESS OF CRAFTING.
That's just the point, that there's nothing much that can be done about the clicking... IF you don't want that "flood the marketplace" situation.
Secondly, to that point of clicking, what do players do in combat after all? In crafting, you are in effect clicking for a result, in steps, the same as you do in combat. The problem seems to be (to me) that gamers are more inclined to "hack and slash", so they willingly accept it for that game play, but not for crafting. Or am I wrong?
Yes, I agree that making crafting as interesting as possible is important (just like combat). So I see your point on that now. It's just that I don't see clicking itself as bad (in crafting), but maybe the lesson here can be taken from combat... Options, and avoid repetition (exactly the same action over and over again). I tried crafting in Vanguard, and I thought it was pretty well done and more interesting.
UO didn't start with gear with all of those modifiers and specs on. That came about with what I think was their last major update, about 10-12 years ago.
FYI your timeline is off by a decade, AOS added all the loot changes. 2003. Thats 20 years ago. Also there was spells on items prior, not much thou, like clumsy, weaken, curse, etc..
Honestly, I don't like all of this modern day gear game play. It's too much. And as you illustrate, a player "has to" carry multiples of gear and switch out. That just sucks, in my opinion. It takes up valuable backpack space, and then you get into extremes of "believability."
Believability? Its a fantasy game afterall right? Are you trying to play a real life sim?
In fantasy you can just have a bag of holding, believability is solved. Even D&D had those.
I like all kinds of cool stuff put on items, spells, resistances, speed, damage, skill increases you name it, stick it on there. Let the customer decide what they want.
I cant stand having just 1 uber (weapon/armor set) of ownage that you bring to every single encounter for the rest of your gaming life. How dull.
Heck even in real life specialists have different gear with different attributes for different situations. You dont use rocket launchers for every encounter nor will a knife take down a helicopter at 500 feet.
Letting people aquire different equipment is a big part of the MMO experience. Pushing people into 1 single uber item is just boring.
Ahh, yes, you are right about the timing of the change. (It's been too long ago.)
All of this crap added onto gear is too much for my likes. All it does is take aspects from other things (Magical jewelry, skills, spells, etc.) and puts it in again, on gear. It's "Power Creep" unbounded. Worse, you have all of this extra gear you're carrying around and miraculously changing it in almost an instant. It's way too "gamey."
Yes, it's a fantasy game. But come on! Let's not accept the ridiculously unbelievable, unless you want "just a game" and "the world be damned."
UO didn't start with gear with all of those modifiers and specs on. That came about with what I think was their last major update, about 10-12 years ago.
FYI your timeline is off by a decade, AOS added all the loot changes. 2003. Thats 20 years ago. Also there was spells on items prior, not much thou, like clumsy, weaken, curse, etc..
Honestly, I don't like all of this modern day gear game play. It's too much. And as you illustrate, a player "has to" carry multiples of gear and switch out. That just sucks, in my opinion. It takes up valuable backpack space, and then you get into extremes of "believability."
Believability? Its a fantasy game afterall right? Are you trying to play a real life sim?
In fantasy you can just have a bag of holding, believability is solved. Even D&D had those.
I like all kinds of cool stuff put on items, spells, resistances, speed, damage, skill increases you name it, stick it on there. Let the customer decide what they want.
I cant stand having just 1 uber (weapon/armor set) of ownage that you bring to every single encounter for the rest of your gaming life. How dull.
Heck even in real life specialists have different gear with different attributes for different situations. You dont use rocket launchers for every encounter nor will a knife take down a helicopter at 500 feet.
Letting people aquire different equipment is a big part of the MMO experience. Pushing people into 1 single uber item is just boring.
Ahh, yes, you are right about the timing of the change. (It's been too long ago.)
All of this crap added onto gear is too much for my likes. All it does is take aspects from other things (Magical jewelry, skills, spells, etc.) and puts it in again, on gear. It's "Power Creep" unbounded. Worse, you have all of this extra gear you're carrying around and miraculously changing it in almost an instant. It's way too "gamey."
Yes, it's a fantasy game. But come on! Let's not accept the ridiculously unbelievable, unless you want "just a game" and "the world be damned."
To twist the quote, 'If you magic wand everything, then nothing is magic.'
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Most MMORPGs are tolerated through the levelling to get to the end game;
Why should most players have to tolerate 1 system just to get to another system they like? Doesnt make alot of sense to me.
Part of this is the player's fault. Why buy a game where you hate 99% of the content?
Granted, I think this problem is going away. You've got games where you instantly have tiered PvP available. You've got games where the whole point is farming/crafting with no PvP whatsoever. In some ways it is a good time to be a gamer.
In short, there is probably a title out there where you start, and indeed the entire game, is what you'd consider endgame.
That spurs a thought: Maybe 'endgame' is a dead concept?
I don't think endgame is dead as a concept.
In my mind, I liken the MMO situation to education versus work in real life.
The leveling process is like going to school. You feel like you are learning a lot, you certainly acquire a lot of knowledge, but it's ultimately pretty easy and not very useful by itself.
But then you graduate and enter the "real" world. This is where you learn to apply all that useless knowledge you picked up in school. This is not really about learning new skills in a controlled environment, it's about learning how to apply knowledge and critical thinking to actual problems. This is endgame.
I can enviage MMORPGs which are pure endgame, or pure leveling, but I don't think either would be particularly successful.
Pure endgame, with no leveling, would be awesome but extremely overwhelming for new players. It'd be like starting a new technical job......with no prior training. Like being a server administrator without ever having touched a server before. Its possible, you can learn on the job......but most people would just quit.
Pure leveling, with no endgame, would be easy but short sighted. We have a ton of single player RPGs like this already. They can be fun, the first time, but unless u care about story they can be extremely disappointing. Like, you spend 40+ hours learning all these skills, building up an amazing gear set, creating a connection with your character......and then the game ends before you get to do anything.
This brings up a question to consider. Is there any kind of game play that doesn't eventually hit that hard >END<? Developers cannot keep up with content demands as it is, we've seen that. What else is there to do? What doesn't hit that "end-wall"?
Creative Simulations :P
I don't know what you'd actually call it officially, but games like Cities: Skylines, Planet Zoo etc.
The underlying simulation gives you some focus, but ultimately these are just creative sandboxes, leaving you free to do whatever u want. the more tool the devs give you, the more creative you can get and the longer the game lasts.
Of course, your own creativity may run out (or your patience...), which is usually what happens to me with these sorts of games. Then they release a DLC, I get inspired again, and lose another 100+ hours building a new zoo :P
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Comments
Imagine needing fire protection gear to hunt imps - well, not needing it, but it making the task much less dangerous. So you're hunting imps with your fire protection gear and player killers teleport into the zone and attack.
The imps prefer "dark souls" and so they immediately target the player killers.
The player killers may have good gear for attacking other players OR they could have good gear for protection against imps. The player killer has to choose between maximum damage against another player or maximum protection against imps.
It isn't a perfect idea but in my mind illustrates something other than current gear progression in most games where your max weapon is THE MAX weapon for every encounter/circumstance/dungeon crawl. With horizontal progression (a variety of gear everyone can use) vs. vertical progression (one ring to rule them all) the strategies can change up.
This sort of variety lends itself to variety across the board, for example, now potions of fire protection become important to the PK, but gosh, they're expensive and don't last long.... oh, and only good aligned players can create them so now money flows back to the good guys.
Primarily they need easy teleportation.
They need bind stones, recall, quick travel to safe areas so people can log out and put stuff in storage quickly.
They need ability for people to summon others easily into where they are, so players dont have to wait around for parties to form, or run around the map all day.
They need points of interest where people can teleport to that quickly once discovered, this way people can get back to what they were doing quickly.
They need QOL things, people have limited time, they dont want to waste it.
Plenty of inventory and large stack sizes. Stop the inventory management mini game.
Fast healing/mana recovery after combat, nobody wants to waste their precious 30 minutes waiting for health/mana/stat recovery.
Make content capable of being broken into bite size chunks. 30 min - 1 hour dungeons max. If longer they need key points to break the dungeon into segments.
Any QOL time savers that let people actually play the fun parts of the game and not focus on the stupid time wasters nobody wants.
After 45 minutes of waiting around we did the raid, which was heavily choreographed, only to be told that we'd need to repeat it dozens of times to equip everyone - in gear that would be rendered obsolete in the next expansion.
Didn't go back
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Why should most players have to tolerate 1 system just to get to another system they like? Doesnt make alot of sense to me.
Why buy a game where you hate 99% of the content?
Granted, I think this problem is going away. You've got games where you instantly have tiered PvP available. You've got games where the whole point is farming/crafting with no PvP whatsoever. In some ways it is a good time to be a gamer.
In short, there is probably a title out there where you start, and indeed the entire game, is what you'd consider endgame.
That spurs a thought: Maybe 'endgame' is a dead concept?
That came about with what I think was their last major update, about 10-12 years ago.
Originally UO had 3 aspects on gear that had 5 levels of power.
This was for both weapons and armor.
The 3 aspects involved
- damage
- accuracy chance to hit
- durability
The 5 levels was a simple +1-5 bonus or negative modifier.
There were no magical effects. This was based on the Smith's skill, and it was a chance to make it.
So a sword made by a master smith had a chance to be up to +5 in each of those aspects, and a weapon with +5 in all of them was very rare.
Honestly, I don't like all of this modern day gear game play. It's too much. And as you illustrate, a player "has to" carry multiples of gear and switch out.
That just sucks, in my opinion. It takes up valuable backpack space, and then you get into extremes of "believability."
I mean, we don't read about the famous battles of the ancient past where warriors changed their armor right in the middle of combat, nor that they had 10 different weapons of each type to make use of the best options vs. opponents. (Some, yes, maybe 3 weapon types.)
I'd much rather see most of that accomplished by using various skills and special moves.
Add in some magical defenses on rings and necklaces that can be switched out, in a more believable sense that fits fantasy gaming. Also some magical capabilities on gear, to a limit.
But don't allow quick changes of armor or weapons. There should be a time cost, and in the case of armor there should be the chance that you get a full damage hit while you're taking one piece off, if you want to do that in the middle of battle.
I don't like all of this gear complication. It's so "gamey", to me. It doesn't feel right.
Once upon a time....
I loved UO's Runestone system for teleports and gates.
A player, one way or another, can catch up with their friends instantly, and the group can get to their objectives for the evening's entertainment.
And leave just as fast.
I liked how someone had to actually magically "mark" a runestone first before it could be used. That left exploration in play.
Best of all, for those players who don't want to explore, they don't have to. They can make use of other's "marked" runestones. They were sold at player vendors, and some players even made "Rune Libraries" in their homes for other players to use the runestones "in place" to get where they wanted to go.
It was a marvelous system, all in all.
Once upon a time....
Is there any kind of game play that doesn't eventually hit that hard >END<?
Developers cannot keep up with content demands as it is, we've seen that.
What else is there to do? What doesn't hit that "end-wall"?
Once upon a time....
Had that happen in WoW.....new players would join the guild, we had to run them through dungeons, then many would leave or quit the game.....After a couple of weeks I had enough...It was a never ending nightmare.
and its vice versa...Some people like the first part of the game, but not the end game
By 'end game' I mean the reason you're doing all the work. So if you want to do top tier raids that would be the 'end game' and everything to get there would be the 'grind'.
In my mind, that is the only definition that makes sense because as soon as they add new levels and raids the 'end game' moves and the previous 'end game' becomes 'grind'.
So if 'end game' for you is PvP, just go play League of Legends and PvP right out of the box.
So if the 'end game' is story then play a heavy narrative single player title and get great story right out of the box.
So if the 'end game' is building stuffs play Minecraft.
The concept of an 'end game' (as a goal to reach - the part I really want to play) is outdated, unless you want to set up a cash shop to people can buy their way past the rest of the game - but then if you're going to spend that kind of money why not just buy a title that gets you what you want immediately?
1. Walking: Just running around and wasting time is NOT interesting to me. The first few times? Yes, it is awesome, but afterwards, please include some kind of teleportation. I keep getting reminded of Age of Conan. Beautiful, fun game, but god damn there is too much walking around, ricing stuff.
2. Inventory management: Yeah, if you ask me, all of these could be auto sorted icons and I wouldn't care one bit as long as it was easy to find what you're looking for. Inventory tetris? Gimme a break from year 1998!
3. General timewasters: Like cast timers to pick up things or cast timers to craft stuff. Can you tell I don't like the IMPLEMENTATION of crafting? As an idea, sure I love it. Be self sufficient while also making wondrous items? YES, PLEASE! But how it is implemented(just standing around doing barely more than ... inventory management)? HELL NO, GO AWAY!
Crafting should be a part of the economic game. And that should be full of management.
What games are doing is dumbing it down for those who don't like that economic game play, removing all challenge, simplifying it to the extreme, and removing that game play from those sorts of players who want it.
The idea that every player should get what they want, and to hell with everyone else, well, that just can't be done.
If a game wants a realistic simulation of a working economy, they should build that part of the game for those players.
Now some games may well want to make their game entirely for players like you, and basically remove "economy" from actual play and into a "here ya go" system for players like you, then that's their prerogative. No problem. But not all games should be made that way, and if we really want change for something new then games should make their economics for players who want a challenging simulation system.
Once upon a time....
Also, maybe guilds are not for you, stick with your solo Warg in the Ettenmoors and pick of those Halflings!
Tbh? Not certain what can be done to improve the PROCESS OF CRAFTING.
Believability? Its a fantasy game afterall right? Are you trying to play a real life sim?
In fantasy you can just have a bag of holding, believability is solved. Even D&D had those.
I like all kinds of cool stuff put on items, spells, resistances, speed, damage, skill increases you name it, stick it on there. Let the customer decide what they want.
I cant stand having just 1 uber (weapon/armor set) of ownage that you bring to every single encounter for the rest of your gaming life. How dull.
Heck even in real life specialists have different gear with different attributes for different situations. You dont use rocket launchers for every encounter nor will a knife take down a helicopter at 500 feet.
Letting people aquire different equipment is a big part of the MMO experience. Pushing people into 1 single uber item is just boring.
IF you don't want that "flood the marketplace" situation.
Secondly, to that point of clicking, what do players do in combat after all?
In crafting, you are in effect clicking for a result, in steps, the same as you do in combat.
The problem seems to be (to me) that gamers are more inclined to "hack and slash", so they willingly accept it for that game play, but not for crafting. Or am I wrong?
Yes, I agree that making crafting as interesting as possible is important (just like combat). So I see your point on that now. It's just that I don't see clicking itself as bad (in crafting), but maybe the lesson here can be taken from combat...
Options, and avoid repetition (exactly the same action over and over again).
I tried crafting in Vanguard, and I thought it was pretty well done and more interesting.
Once upon a time....
All of this crap added onto gear is too much for my likes. All it does is take aspects from other things (Magical jewelry, skills, spells, etc.) and puts it in again, on gear.
It's "Power Creep" unbounded.
Worse, you have all of this extra gear you're carrying around and miraculously changing it in almost an instant. It's way too "gamey."
Yes, it's a fantasy game. But come on! Let's not accept the ridiculously unbelievable, unless you want "just a game" and "the world be damned."
Once upon a time....
To twist the quote, 'If you magic wand everything, then nothing is magic.'
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
There is some kind of beauty in this simplicity.