What do you mean Monetize the game? So, the player makes money or the developers? No one is going to compete anymore to make YouTube video's and try to get paid to play a game through monetization. You have to actually pay players at this point to play an MMO. You have to pay for that 500 people player base. Long gone are the days of monetization. If you don't pay a person to play your game, it will just die. Like any long-lasting relationship, if you want a committed player, you have to give it an incentive. Time wasted isn't free anymore. A 20-year game commitment must be a win/win for both sides. Not just a profit for developers and time wasted for players. If you want me to waste tons of time playing your game, teach me how to code inside it, pay me in crypto, give me college credit for creating an in-game business. How can we help each other with time management. Game developers need to adapt to the new reset. Not wait for a generation to die out just go back to the old business models.
And this is why I am scared to death when my kids generation starts running things. Most normal gamers play the games willingly that's why we call ourselves gamers. If you want to be paid to do what use to be considered leisure activities maybe look into being a "influencer". No one is forced (in most cases) to play games so if you feel games are a waste of time maybe you are not a gamer?
Influencers aren't really a thing anymore in gaming. Way too many people tried that, and only a few rose to the top and got paid. You do realize people are used to getting paid to waste their time, right? How are you going to convince an entire generation of kids who are used to getting paid to waste their time, to waste their time for free? These kids get paid to game, socialize, be influencers, and a ton of other things. What incentive do they have to waste time playing a game, if the monetization money isn't there anymore? Gaming isn't about passion. It's about making enough money to keep gaming a business. You can be passionate about playing your game, but investors are passionate about making money. Now convince me why I should waste my time for free?
You literally highlight why games are failing. Every AAA game studio is turning out failure after failure with one hit once in a blue moon. Take EA most people hate them for the very thing you state they need to do. If any studio made a good game for the sake of making a good game it would sell itself. But they don't they worry about profits and make shit games over and over. The whole pay me to waste my time isn't a problem created in reality it's a mind set that is being encouraged by the entitled misguided youth. Again I'll state it, games are a leisurely activity people do by choice. If you/they consider playing games a waste of time maybe gaming isn't the hobby for you/them?
You literally highlight why games are failing. Every AAA game studio is turning out failure after failure with one hit once in a blue moon. Take EA most people hate them for the very thing you state they need to do. If any studio made a good game for the sake of making a good game it would sell itself. But they don't they worry about profits and make shit games over and over. The whole pay me to waste my time isn't a problem created in reality it's a mind set that is being encouraged by the entitled misguided youth. Again I'll state it, games are a leisurely activity people do by choice. If you/they consider playing games a waste of time maybe gaming isn't the hobby for you/them?
I'm not your problem. I have played games for 20+ years for free. The new player base won't play these games without incentives. You have to pay for their attention if you want the money. This genre will die or suffer. Adapt or die. A genius adapts to his environment, not necessarily master's it.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
You literally highlight why games are failing. Every AAA game studio is turning out failure after failure with one hit once in a blue moon. Take EA most people hate them for the very thing you state they need to do. If any studio made a good game for the sake of making a good game it would sell itself. But they don't they worry about profits and make shit games over and over. The whole pay me to waste my time isn't a problem created in reality it's a mind set that is being encouraged by the entitled misguided youth. Again I'll state it, games are a leisurely activity people do by choice. If you/they consider playing games a waste of time maybe gaming isn't the hobby for you/them?
I'm not your problem. I have played games for 20+ years for free. The new player base won't play these games without incentives. You have to pay for their attention if you want the money. This genre will die or suffer. Adapt or die. A genius adapts to his environment, not necessarily master's it.
Not sure how I missed it, you are shilling for crypto gaming....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem with your proposed business model is that MMO gamers have a LONG memory and you're prescribing that MMO companies build abandonware. That is build a game, get paid, and immediately put it into maintenance mode and start working on a new game. MMO gamers will have that figured out pretty darn quick and the developer's reputation will be trash before they get halfway through developing game #2 in the plan. Two months after launch they'll be asking where the content patch is and when one isn't forthcoming reddit will be on fire. Game #2 is going to see a very tepid response due to your well earned reputation and when history repeats you can bet Game #3 will be a collosal failure.
It’s a good way of putting it. That’s what Asian developers did for quite some time.
A few years ago there was a this presentation at some conference where a western developer was addressing other western developers about eastern monetization. He explained exactly what you stated.
They would release a game and essentially open a massive amount of servers. Then slowly close them as interest waned only to repeat the process.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Your examples of Elder Scrolls and Dark Souls are single player games. For those, a new one every few years makes more sense.
Why? Elaborate. Doesnt make more sense to me that its good for RPG's and not MMO's. Just because MMO's are not doing it doesnt mean it shouldnt be done.
I dont see how a deep RPG like Skyrim can do it, but an MMO cannot?
Even if you skip years its still way more money for the studio. 30k vs 30mil is vastly different especially since the 30k is not even making much purchases anymore.
I think a lot of players play MMO's for years. They develop a relationship with the community. They build up their characters and their houses over time. Many players play MMO's for years, many years in a lot of cases.
If you replace the game every two years, that will break that cycle. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't put two years of game time into developing a character in an MMO just to have the game shut down.
Maybe you mean to leave the old game running in maintenance only? With no updates? What MMO is going to succeed like that?
Or maybe you mean leave the old game running but provide updates every year or two? That's what we have now.
On the other hand, for a single player game, most people will finish the game in 2 years or less. It makes sense to make a new game with a new story in that case. MMO's don't have a "finish the game" moment normally. The life-cycle of a successful MMO is far longer than just two years.
Your example of Skyrim seems to belie your point, Skyrim has been out for a decade and it's still going strong. It hasn't been replaced.
You literally highlight why games are failing. Every AAA game studio is turning out failure after failure with one hit once in a blue moon. Take EA most people hate them for the very thing you state they need to do. If any studio made a good game for the sake of making a good game it would sell itself. But they don't they worry about profits and make shit games over and over. The whole pay me to waste my time isn't a problem created in reality it's a mind set that is being encouraged by the entitled misguided youth. Again I'll state it, games are a leisurely activity people do by choice. If you/they consider playing games a waste of time maybe gaming isn't the hobby for you/them?
I'm not your problem. I have played games for 20+ years for free. The new player base won't play these games without incentives. You have to pay for their attention if you want the money. This genre will die or suffer. Adapt or die. A genius adapts to his environment, not necessarily master's it.
Not sure how I missed it, you are shilling for crypto gaming....
There's an idea that can burn
{“Shilling” is when somebody talks up a cryptocurrency project with the goal of creating more demand for a token and increasing its price. Presumably this is done because the “shill” owns tokens and wants the price to increase.
This carries a negative connotation, as opposed to something more positive like “sharing investment advice”. The implication is usually that the “shill” is looking to make a quick profit, though it usually really just means that the person complaining about the “shilling” has a negative opinion of the project.}
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
How does a money making and mostly losing mechanism improve anything about a game? What does this form of gambling have to do with gaming ethos at all?
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
How does a money making and mostly losing mechanism improve anything about a game? What does this form of gambling have to do with gaming ethos at all?
Perhaps it is why we call gambling "gaming". We "play" craps and blackjack and slots. Without the monetary lure however, these games wouldn't be nearly as popular.
In the crypto game it is probably similar: the game itself isn't that interesting unless you throw in the lure of monetary gain.
You literally highlight why games are failing. Every AAA game studio is turning out failure after failure with one hit once in a blue moon. Take EA most people hate them for the very thing you state they need to do. If any studio made a good game for the sake of making a good game it would sell itself. But they don't they worry about profits and make shit games over and over. The whole pay me to waste my time isn't a problem created in reality it's a mind set that is being encouraged by the entitled misguided youth. Again I'll state it, games are a leisurely activity people do by choice. If you/they consider playing games a waste of time maybe gaming isn't the hobby for you/them?
I'm not your problem. I have played games for 20+ years for free. The new player base won't play these games without incentives. You have to pay for their attention if you want the money. This genre will die or suffer. Adapt or die. A genius adapts to his environment, not necessarily master's it.
Not sure how I missed it, you are shilling for crypto gaming....
There's an idea that can burn
{“Shilling” is when somebody talks up a cryptocurrency project with the goal of creating more demand for a token and increasing its price. Presumably this is done because the “shill” owns tokens and wants the price to increase.
This carries a negative connotation, as opposed to something more positive like “sharing investment advice”. The implication is usually that the “shill” is looking to make a quick profit, though it usually really just means that the person complaining about the “shilling” has a negative opinion of the project.}
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
Simple question, do you now play (or have ever played) a crypto currency, NFT selling, "block chain" game where the primary hook is on player "ownership" and potential resale of in game assets?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Brainy said: AAA companies should come out with a solid product, then release a new improved updated version of the MMO every 2 years, fully standalone B2P new game.
...
Rather than just put all their resources into a game that will NEVER get that player base back. Why not just take all the lessons learned and put all of it into a new game iteration. Just like all the Dark Souls, Elder Scroll, StarCraft, Diablo etc... Stay with B2P model.
So your solution to MMO monetization is to make single player games?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
How does a money making and mostly losing mechanism improve anything about a game? What does this form of gambling have to do with gaming ethos at all?
How is it gambling if the player is getting paid to run raids, teach people to play the game, learn how to code, craft mods, run a business, and so much more? If advertisers monetize the game, like put advertisements in game, the game company gets paid. If the game company offers players an in-game currency to do tasks, that is in the form of a crypto, it's a win/win and everyone gets paid. This also makes the developer work harder at trying to win advertising contracts and keep them. It creates competition for everyone involved. It also cuts down on pump and dump FPS franchise copycats. It creates as the investors would say, long term investments.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
How are you going to convince an entire generation of kids who are used to getting paid to waste their time, to waste their time for free?
If a game is fun to play, that's enough of a reason to play it. And if it's not fun to play, then there's no sense in trying to find some other reason to get people to play it.
How are you going to convince an entire generation of kids who are used to getting paid to waste their time, to waste their time for free?
If a game is fun to play, that's enough of a reason to play it. And if it's not fun to play, then there's no sense in trying to find some other reason to get people to play it.
You capitalist wizards are all cynical. You hate when easy money is to easily gained.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
I think a lot of players play MMO's for years. They develop a relationship with the community. They build up their characters and their houses over time. Many players play MMO's for years, many years in a lot of cases.
I dont think the data really shows this unless "a lot" is a small fraction of the playerbase to you. There were 100 million+ accounts in WoW all the way back in 2014, who knows what that number looks like in 2023. Yet there are only 4mil or less players now. Thats 4% or less playing and probably even a smaller percent than that.
If there were delivering good products they could be getting 60mil+ per game sold every 2 years. No way they are seeing over 30% retention year over year.
New world has 1% retention at most right now.
Where are all these MMO's right now that are retaining their playerbase year over year? I sure dont see it. They might be seeing a core base do that, but not the wide majority.
Additionally, nothing is stopping people from continueing to play the MMO they want. The servers might decrease but how is that different than now? These core people can play the game they like for years if they want, having more games out there just gives customers options to spend their money or not on a better version. It doesnt force them to quit a game they like.
Your example of Skyrim seems to belie your point, Skyrim has been out for a decade and it's still going strong. It hasn't been replaced.
Well this is tough to know, because sure Skyrim (Ver5) had 30mil sales in the 2 years after Oblivion (Ver4). Then over the next 8 years they actually sold another 30 mil. They might have sold these either way, people still buy v1 of games years after the fact. So potentially they could have made Ver 6 sold 60mil copies at $50-$60 and sold another 30mil v5 at $20.
When you look at the chart they were in exponential growth until they stopped releasing new versions every 2 years.
If they would have continued, they probably would have made tens of billions more with 5-6 new versions since that time. Instead they made around $600 mil, essentially doing nothing but letting there brand deteriate. Sure its free money, but it cost them in lost potential revenue/profit.
I think its clear that they blundered not continueing with what they were doing. They have to rebuild their entire brand now, and its a question how well V6 will even sell. They lost momentum.
So your solution to MMO monetization is to make single player games?
No I am not advocating single player games. Single player games and MMO's are defined by how many simultaneous users are playing at the same time, not monetization.
Some MMO's are B2P and some single player games are full loot box / cash shops.
I am just suggesting these MMO's go B2P and release on a schedule to maximize profits and build a playerbase. Updating a game for only 1% of your playbase is a waste of money and resources. Sell to the 99% and not the 1%.
Whats funny is you will get the 1% either way. So I dont see any downsides at all.
Catering to that one percent is stupid. I agree. That 1% was paid to play every new game out for the past 15 years and get to end game in 6 weeks. You could time it. It was ridiculous. They were helping to pump and dump games way too far. They were also developers trying to play their own games and line GameStop shelves with their games.
1. Brainy stated, "There were 100 million+ accounts in WoW all the way back in 2014, who knows what that number looks like in 2023. Yet there are only 4mil or less players now. Thats 4% or less playing and probably even a smaller percent than that."
So, according to MMO Populations website, "World of Warcraft has 2.5 million<--active players and 132 million<--total lifetime player count."
2. Brainy stated, "If there were delivering good products, they could be getting 60mil+ per game sold every 2 years. No way they are seeing over 30% retention year over year."
Your average is quite off. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get 30mill every 2 years. Go to MMO Populations and do a quick average calculation. I got an average of 30 million. It is the hardcore average referenced in every post.
3. Brainy stated, " I am just suggesting these MMO's go B2P and release on a schedule to maximize profits and build a player base."
Is 15 dollars a month really too much to ask? The base game and expansions will just be more expensive. Be prepared for sticker shock.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
2. Brainy stated, "If there were delivering good products, they could be getting 60mil+ per game sold every 2 years. No way they are seeing over 30% retention year over year."
Your average is quite off. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get 30mill every 2 years. Go to MMO Populations and do a quick average calculation. I got an average of 30 million. It is the hardcore average referenced in every post.
I think this is a good point, but I wasnt referencing the average game. I was specifically replying to Skyrim and what would have happened if they stayed on their trajectory of sales and releasing V6 after 2 years rather than moving to ESO and releasing expansions.
I havent seen an MMO release a new stand alone game every 2 years, EVER. So until we have that data, its pure speculation.
However, when you look at comparable single player AAA brands, you see the top games have been increasing their popularatity over time with each subsequent release. So I think you can assume its possible AAA MMO's could do the same thing.
2. Brainy stated, "If there were delivering good products, they could be getting 60mil+ per game sold every 2 years. No way they are seeing over 30% retention year over year."
Your average is quite off. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get 30mill every 2 years. Go to MMO Populations and do a quick average calculation. I got an average of 30 million. It is the hardcore average referenced in every post.
I think this is a good point, but I wasnt referencing the average game. I was specifically replying to Skyrim and what would have happened if they stayed on their trajectory of sales and releasing V6 after 2 years rather than moving to ESO and releasing expansions.
I havent seen an MMO release a new stand alone game every 2 years, EVER. So until we have that data, its pure speculation.
However, when you look at comparable single player AAA brands, you see the top games have been increasing their popularatity over time with each subsequent release. So I think you can assume its possible AAA MMO's could do the same thing.
There was a day when Devs tried to launch sequels but in most cases the either underperformed against their originals or failed outright.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not sure what nonsense I actually read acting like it should be easy or something.
First you need to develop a game which takes countless hours paying your entire dev team as well as paying for all the tools the game needs. Its not as if you can make a good game off of free tools and not pay your devs. For that you need a significant amount of money before you even begin and who's going to front those millions needed for your dev ream and the tools. Noone wants to invest unless they see solid potential of a return of their investment and those with the money don't care about the game itself but about the profits only. Take $5 million from me to make your game I want my investment doubled within 5 years at bare minimum.
Now you have a completed game. You need hardware to run your servers as well as the bandwidth to support your hopeful amount of players as well as the tech staff to maintain everything 24/7. You need a billing and a support team to handle your ingame, out of game, and billing issues. You still aren't a LIVE game yet at this point so you need even more money to launch the game.
Now you think your ready but guess what, noone knows about your game so you need a marketing strategy for advertising and raising awareness of your game. This is extremely expensive actually a few streamers won't cut it even because again you aren't even launched yet to being an active game. You need everyone to know about your game and know about it to want to spend money to purchase your game and sign up probably paying a subscription assuming you want a good game and not a P2W gatcha piece of crap. Maybe in the future you may go to a F2P model of some sort but you can't do that so far in the hole.
After all that we can't forget you actually need a GOOD game that isn't just a clone themepark that will die off in 3-6 months hoping to keep going on life support. You need to address the concerns and interests of core gamers and not focus on the casual flip flop gamers. This means your game needs a slow but steady pace as well as a relevant journey to it rather then rush to mindless endgame. You need decent graphics because lets be honest, very few want to play a game with 20--30 year old dated graphics. You need a strong socialization pressure in your game because the thing that keeps people playing the most is solid friendships and that is what most core gamers want while the casuals are a poor investment. With this you need to also find a system that makes pushes ingame communication rather then outside communication like discord as well as a system that makes it very hard to do outside guides, tutorials, and walkthroughs because that trivializes any content you do making it super rushed and removing any difficulty (this is the very tough part).
Now your game is ready to launch more or less but then comes a whole slew of new costs.
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
How does a money making and mostly losing mechanism improve anything about a game? What does this form of gambling have to do with gaming ethos at all?
How is it gambling if the player is getting paid to run raids, teach people to play the game, learn how to code, craft mods, run a business, and so much more? If advertisers monetize the game, like put advertisements in game, the game company gets paid. If the game company offers players an in-game currency to do tasks, that is in the form of a crypto, it's a win/win and everyone gets paid. This also makes the developer work harder at trying to win advertising contracts and keep them. It creates competition for everyone involved. It also cuts down on pump and dump FPS franchise copycats. It creates as the investors would say, long term investments.
Because Crypto is gambling 'per se'. It does not depend on how the crypto is being used, it is a gambling endeavor and should have no place in gaming.
If you think taking part in any crypto exercise is "win-win and everyone gets paid" you need to hold onto your shirt my forum poster friend or you may lose it.
Where is the spirit of Bcbully, I would have thought this Mekhere would have conjured him up by now.
How are you going to convince an entire generation of kids who are used to getting paid to waste their time, to waste their time for free?
If a game is fun to play, that's enough of a reason to play it. And if it's not fun to play, then there's no sense in trying to find some other reason to get people to play it.
You capitalist wizards are all cynical. You hate when easy money is to easily gained.
No dodging my question now...I repeat:
"Simple question, do you now play (or have ever played) a crypto currency, NFT selling, "block chain" game where the primary hook is on player "ownership" and potential resale of in game assets?"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So your solution to MMO monetization is to make single player games?
No I am not advocating single player games. Single player games and MMO's are defined by how many simultaneous users are playing at the same time, not monetization.
I am just suggesting these MMO's go B2P and release on a schedule to maximize profits and build a playerbase. Updating a game for only 1% of your playbase is a waste of money and resources. Sell to the 99% and not the 1%.
Whats funny is you will get the 1% either way. So I dont see any downsides at all.
But you would still have to create a direct single player experience where there is a start and a direct distinct end of the game for the player, a point where they have won the game, so the player can move on to do something else, like go outside and touch grass or something, and thus be willing to buy a new game in 2 years
This is how and why all single player games work, and what allows them to put out more in the series. The previous players Won the game, and thus are willing to buy the next in the series to beat that as well. Or they liked the game enough to see if part 2 would be better.
So to work on your system they would have to remove all aspects of any kind of Open Ended Gameplay, any long reaching goals , grinds, or things players could spend months or years working towards.
Now see it's that Open Ended gameplay that is what builds the community to work together, otherwise, you're dealing with a game that is going to be FIFO type of play, and players that can't keep up, casuals, people that are just not good, and the like, might as well not even bother as the people that would normally be around to train them, teach them, and the like, would have beat the game and moved on to something else by the time they even get halfway through.
This would pretty much remove most, if not all, the social and teamwork aspects of the game, and thus only the people with fixed, cross-game Statics, would buy your game going forward assuming players needed to work together.
Otherwise, you are, making a single player game where random other players can annoy and bother you, while offering no advantage of their presence, which sadly defeats the advantages of both platforms, but I think it's been tried already and went over poorly, some Starwars game that allowed multiplayer platform, tanked real hard all things said and done.
The mechanical problems and of course the joy of alienating your player base aside, lets get down to money.
Now the real downside is service. See in WoW, they brag they had 100million accounts, this also includes all the people who ran the free trials as well, so, if it was pure B2P, I don't think they would pull those numbers, but even if they did, lets say they made 25 per box, that comes out to 2.5 Billion Dollars.
Lets run that against their 10 Million Active Player count that they collected a sub fee from for years, that amounts to 150 Million Monthly, which amounts to 1.2 billion annual from Subs alone, in 2 years, they have already not only made the Box Fee, they have doubled it, with a solid 10% retainment, this looks great, because they also toss out an Expansion and get damn near to all 10 million sales, and the Sub. Long story short, they are rolling in cash.
Even at their low point of a paltry light weight 4 Million Subs, that is still 60 Million Monthly Income, 720 Million Annual.
And you want them to give that up for the Hope of Reoccurring Box Sales every 2 years ?
Honestly, the hard truth is, the players that would buy an expansion are also the players that would buy "Next in Series", you would not pull in all the people that left the first time, ergo, you would not pull back all 100 Million Sales, you might get a small bump over your core player base. Like say, the 10 million, plus 50% more, so 15 Million would Buy "Next In Series" that is until they realize they just lost all their 2 years of progress and effort, suddenly that becomes a real hard sell to be honest.
In fact, I would wager a bet, that asking players to give up all their previous time and investment in the older MMO to move to the new one, would go over about as well as ripping a huge ugly fart in a church during mid prayer, this is why the "WoW Killers" do not work, players are not just going to abandon all their time and effort for a new game, they have to get tired of their current game before they are willing to walk away from it.
So making abandonware MMO's, that's a unique idea, and goes against the very premise of what MMO's have been established as, In fact, I would bet money, that would become the cautionary tale of what not to do with MMO development.
In fact, I would say that would inspire a lot of other MMO's to make open promises that will not do the same, I would imagine WoW would be like "We Will Never Make a WoW2, We will keep this game alive and in development and all your efforts viable for as long as we remain a company!" and players would gladly return to them, pay their 15 Sub, Expansions, Cash Shop. And players would loyally return and many would move to them that had not before, simply because of that promise.
I wager all the other major MMO's game companies would follow suit, some with varying degrees of success. Like I wager GW2 and FF14 would have less, while games like NewWorld, BDO, Neverwinter, ESO, and the like, might have far more success since they don't have a number next to their name.
But overall, your idea would make an impact, maybe not what you hoped for, but it would make impact like a massive meteor into a major city.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
How are you going to convince an entire generation of kids who are used to getting paid to waste their time, to waste their time for free?
If a game is fun to play, that's enough of a reason to play it. And if it's not fun to play, then there's no sense in trying to find some other reason to get people to play it.
You capitalist wizards are all cynical. You hate when easy money is to easily gained.
No dodging my question now...I repeat:
"Simple question, do you now play (or have ever played) a crypto currency, NFT selling, "block chain" game where the primary hook is on player "ownership" and potential resale of in game assets?"
Maybe for like 2 days. It was way back, like 5 years ago. It was that space/fantasy mmo right before NFTs happened. I hated it.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
How does a money making and mostly losing mechanism improve anything about a game? What does this form of gambling have to do with gaming ethos at all?
How is it gambling if the player is getting paid to run raids, teach people to play the game, learn how to code, craft mods, run a business, and so much more? If advertisers monetize the game, like put advertisements in game, the game company gets paid. If the game company offers players an in-game currency to do tasks, that is in the form of a crypto, it's a win/win and everyone gets paid. This also makes the developer work harder at trying to win advertising contracts and keep them. It creates competition for everyone involved. It also cuts down on pump and dump FPS franchise copycats. It creates as the investors would say, long term investments.
Because Crypto is gambling 'per se'. It does not depend on how the crypto is being used, it is a gambling endeavor and should have no place in gaming.
If you think taking part in any crypto exercise is "win-win and everyone gets paid" you need to hold onto your shirt my forum poster friend or you may lose it.
Where is the spirit of Bcbully, I would have thought this Mekhere would have conjured him up by now.
Gaming is gambling. The very heart of gaming is built on gambling. Its roots go back very far. Listen, I have been cruising discord servers pretty heavy the last couple years and a lot of the, let's say, customers who invest, have been having these discussions about game development and crypto. It's all they talk about. There are inspired artists who are lost and looking for purpose, I guess. All they talk about is how to re-engineer time wasted. They don't want to let one minute of their day go without being paid. I can't go into any more detail here in these forums for obvious reasons, but that's the discussions happening outside this realm. I was really curious how people felt about it. What their reaction would be. I'm willing to lose my shirt. Experience has taught anyone in gaming that losing one's shirt can turn the tide in any fight. It's the effort you put forth into the shock and awe of losing your shirt. I'm a positive poster and tend to believe things will always work out. I still have faith, one day, this concept could work. I don't know BcBully. Are you referring to the Bully Scholarship game from years ago? It is the beginning of a bull market. Maybe he'll make an appearance at least once. Let's hope he does real soon.
This user is a registered flex offender. Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say. Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark. Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Gaming is gambling. The very heart of gaming is built on gambling. Its roots go back very far. Listen, I have been cruising discord servers pretty heavy the last couple years and a lot of the, let's say, customers who invest, have been having these discussions about game development and crypto. It's all they talk about. There are inspired artists who are lost and looking for purpose, I guess. All they talk about is how to re-engineer time wasted. They don't want to let one minute of their day go without being paid. I can't go into any more detail here in these forums for obvious reasons, but that's the discussions happening outside this realm. I was really curious how people felt about it. What their reaction would be. I'm willing to lose my shirt. Experience has taught anyone in gaming that losing one's shirt can turn the tide in any fight. It's the effort you put forth into the shock and awe of losing your shirt. I'm a positive poster and tend to believe things will always work out. I still have faith, one day, this concept could work. I don't know BcBully. Are you referring to the Bully Scholarship game from years ago? It is the beginning of a bull market. Maybe he'll make an appearance at least once. Let's hope he does real soon.
Gaming is not gambling, that is just a concept pushed by those who want to push ever more gambling into gaming. The roots of gaming are it's ethos which is built on a fair playing field.
I can well believe there are many gamers out there who think their time is being wasted while playing without getting paid. I do not look forward to them playing a crypto game and realising they have been taken for a ride, but that is what will happen to most of them. As you have said you have not played much in the way of crypto gaming, can you see how your fervor is for an idea not a reality?
BCBully is an old poster who had the crypto fever like you do. He was always a PvP man, something we agreed on but then he went so heavily into the wonders of crypto it was like a religious conversion. I hope he still has his shirt.
Comments
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
There's an idea that can burn
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A few years ago there was a this presentation at some conference where a western developer was addressing other western developers about eastern monetization. He explained exactly what you stated.
They would release a game and essentially open a massive amount of servers. Then slowly close them as interest waned only to repeat the process.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
{“Shilling” is when somebody talks up a cryptocurrency project with the goal of creating more demand for a token and increasing its price. Presumably this is done because the “shill” owns tokens and wants the price to increase.
This carries a negative connotation, as opposed to something more positive like “sharing investment advice”. The implication is usually that the “shill” is looking to make a quick profit, though it usually really just means that the person complaining about the “shilling” has a negative opinion of the project.}
No sir, I am not shilling. I am merely debating how to gain the attention of an entitled generation of game developers and children who have ruined the gaming industry. I lean towards being a pro-crypto gaming enthusiast, but only if the gamer doesn't have to invest in the currency. The only investment being time played. The gamer should still have to pay for the game on a store shelf. I enjoy wasting my time wisely.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
If there were delivering good products they could be getting 60mil+ per game sold every 2 years. No way they are seeing over 30% retention year over year.
New world has 1% retention at most right now.
Where are all these MMO's right now that are retaining their playerbase year over year? I sure dont see it. They might be seeing a core base do that, but not the wide majority.
Additionally, nothing is stopping people from continueing to play the MMO they want. The servers might decrease but how is that different than now? These core people can play the game they like for years if they want, having more games out there just gives customers options to spend their money or not on a better version. It doesnt force them to quit a game they like.
Well this is tough to know, because sure Skyrim (Ver5) had 30mil sales in the 2 years after Oblivion (Ver4). Then over the next 8 years they actually sold another 30 mil. They might have sold these either way, people still buy v1 of games years after the fact. So potentially they could have made Ver 6 sold 60mil copies at $50-$60 and sold another 30mil v5 at $20.
When you look at the chart they were in exponential growth until they stopped releasing new versions every 2 years.
If they would have continued, they probably would have made tens of billions more with 5-6 new versions since that time. Instead they made around $600 mil, essentially doing nothing but letting there brand deteriate. Sure its free money, but it cost them in lost potential revenue/profit.
I think its clear that they blundered not continueing with what they were doing. They have to rebuild their entire brand now, and its a question how well V6 will even sell. They lost momentum.
Some MMO's are B2P and some single player games are full loot box / cash shops.
I am just suggesting these MMO's go B2P and release on a schedule to maximize profits and build a playerbase. Updating a game for only 1% of your playbase is a waste of money and resources. Sell to the 99% and not the 1%.
Whats funny is you will get the 1% either way. So I dont see any downsides at all.
3. Brainy stated, " I am just suggesting these MMO's go B2P and release on a schedule to maximize profits and build a player base."
Is 15 dollars a month really too much to ask? The base game and expansions will just be more expensive. Be prepared for sticker shock.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
I havent seen an MMO release a new stand alone game every 2 years, EVER. So until we have that data, its pure speculation.
However, when you look at comparable single player AAA brands, you see the top games have been increasing their popularatity over time with each subsequent release. So I think you can assume its possible AAA MMO's could do the same thing.
https://www.gamepressure.com/editorials/the-curse-of-number-2-good-and-bad-mmo-sequels/z92e2-2
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
First you need to develop a game which takes countless hours paying your entire dev team as well as paying for all the tools the game needs. Its not as if you can make a good game off of free tools and not pay your devs. For that you need a significant amount of money before you even begin and who's going to front those millions needed for your dev ream and the tools. Noone wants to invest unless they see solid potential of a return of their investment and those with the money don't care about the game itself but about the profits only. Take $5 million from me to make your game I want my investment doubled within 5 years at bare minimum.
Now you have a completed game. You need hardware to run your servers as well as the bandwidth to support your hopeful amount of players as well as the tech staff to maintain everything 24/7. You need a billing and a support team to handle your ingame, out of game, and billing issues. You still aren't a LIVE game yet at this point so you need even more money to launch the game.
Now you think your ready but guess what, noone knows about your game so you need a marketing strategy for advertising and raising awareness of your game. This is extremely expensive actually a few streamers won't cut it even because again you aren't even launched yet to being an active game. You need everyone to know about your game and know about it to want to spend money to purchase your game and sign up probably paying a subscription assuming you want a good game and not a P2W gatcha piece of crap. Maybe in the future you may go to a F2P model of some sort but you can't do that so far in the hole.
After all that we can't forget you actually need a GOOD game that isn't just a clone themepark that will die off in 3-6 months hoping to keep going on life support. You need to address the concerns and interests of core gamers and not focus on the casual flip flop gamers. This means your game needs a slow but steady pace as well as a relevant journey to it rather then rush to mindless endgame. You need decent graphics because lets be honest, very few want to play a game with 20--30 year old dated graphics. You need a strong socialization pressure in your game because the thing that keeps people playing the most is solid friendships and that is what most core gamers want while the casuals are a poor investment. With this you need to also find a system that makes pushes ingame communication rather then outside communication like discord as well as a system that makes it very hard to do outside guides, tutorials, and walkthroughs because that trivializes any content you do making it super rushed and removing any difficulty (this is the very tough part).
Now your game is ready to launch more or less but then comes a whole slew of new costs.
If you think taking part in any crypto exercise is "win-win and everyone gets paid" you need to hold onto your shirt my forum poster friend or you may lose it.
Where is the spirit of Bcbully, I would have thought this Mekhere would have conjured him up by now.
"Simple question, do you now play (or have ever played) a crypto currency, NFT selling, "block chain" game where the primary hook is on player "ownership" and potential resale of in game assets?"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is how and why all single player games work, and what allows them to put out more in the series. The previous players Won the game, and thus are willing to buy the next in the series to beat that as well. Or they liked the game enough to see if part 2 would be better.
So to work on your system they would have to remove all aspects of any kind of Open Ended Gameplay, any long reaching goals , grinds, or things players could spend months or years working towards.
Now see it's that Open Ended gameplay that is what builds the community to work together, otherwise, you're dealing with a game that is going to be FIFO type of play, and players that can't keep up, casuals, people that are just not good, and the like, might as well not even bother as the people that would normally be around to train them, teach them, and the like, would have beat the game and moved on to something else by the time they even get halfway through.
This would pretty much remove most, if not all, the social and teamwork aspects of the game, and thus only the people with fixed, cross-game Statics, would buy your game going forward assuming players needed to work together.
Otherwise, you are, making a single player game where random other players can annoy and bother you, while offering no advantage of their presence, which sadly defeats the advantages of both platforms, but I think it's been tried already and went over poorly, some Starwars game that allowed multiplayer platform, tanked real hard all things said and done.
The mechanical problems and of course the joy of alienating your player base aside, lets get down to money.
Now the real downside is service. See in WoW, they brag they had 100million accounts, this also includes all the people who ran the free trials as well, so, if it was pure B2P, I don't think they would pull those numbers, but even if they did, lets say they made 25 per box, that comes out to 2.5 Billion Dollars.
Lets run that against their 10 Million Active Player count that they collected a sub fee from for years, that amounts to 150 Million Monthly, which amounts to 1.2 billion annual from Subs alone, in 2 years, they have already not only made the Box Fee, they have doubled it, with a solid 10% retainment, this looks great, because they also toss out an Expansion and get damn near to all 10 million sales, and the Sub. Long story short, they are rolling in cash.
Even at their low point of a paltry light weight 4 Million Subs, that is still 60 Million Monthly Income, 720 Million Annual.
And you want them to give that up for the Hope of Reoccurring Box Sales every 2 years ?
Honestly, the hard truth is, the players that would buy an expansion are also the players that would buy "Next in Series", you would not pull in all the people that left the first time, ergo, you would not pull back all 100 Million Sales, you might get a small bump over your core player base. Like say, the 10 million, plus 50% more, so 15 Million would Buy "Next In Series" that is until they realize they just lost all their 2 years of progress and effort, suddenly that becomes a real hard sell to be honest.
In fact, I would wager a bet, that asking players to give up all their previous time and investment in the older MMO to move to the new one, would go over about as well as ripping a huge ugly fart in a church during mid prayer, this is why the "WoW Killers" do not work, players are not just going to abandon all their time and effort for a new game, they have to get tired of their current game before they are willing to walk away from it.
So making abandonware MMO's, that's a unique idea, and goes against the very premise of what MMO's have been established as, In fact, I would bet money, that would become the cautionary tale of what not to do with MMO development.
In fact, I would say that would inspire a lot of other MMO's to make open promises that will not do the same, I would imagine WoW would be like "We Will Never Make a WoW2, We will keep this game alive and in development and all your efforts viable for as long as we remain a company!" and players would gladly return to them, pay their 15 Sub, Expansions, Cash Shop. And players would loyally return and many would move to them that had not before, simply because of that promise.
I wager all the other major MMO's game companies would follow suit, some with varying degrees of success. Like I wager GW2 and FF14 would have less, while games like NewWorld, BDO, Neverwinter, ESO, and the like, might have far more success since they don't have a number next to their name.
But overall, your idea would make an impact, maybe not what you hoped for, but it would make impact like a massive meteor into a major city.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
I'm willing to lose my shirt. Experience has taught anyone in gaming that losing one's shirt can turn the tide in any fight. It's the effort you put forth into the shock and awe of losing your shirt.
I don't know BcBully. Are you referring to the Bully Scholarship game from years ago? It is the beginning of a bull market. Maybe he'll make an appearance at least once. Let's hope he does real soon.
Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.
Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end.
I can well believe there are many gamers out there who think their time is being wasted while playing without getting paid. I do not look forward to them playing a crypto game and realising they have been taken for a ride, but that is what will happen to most of them. As you have said you have not played much in the way of crypto gaming, can you see how your fervor is for an idea not a reality?
BCBully is an old poster who had the crypto fever like you do. He was always a PvP man, something we agreed on but then he went so heavily into the wonders of crypto it was like a religious conversion. I hope he still has his shirt.