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Improving MMO Monetization For Win-Win

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    It's probably just harder to improve online games because it is more about the gameplay.  Other genre really just improve their graphics etc.  

    I don't even know what Wow2 or GW2 GW3 can potentially looks like because better mmorpg don't exist.  

    you see other genre improving, but mmorpg is just stagnant.  
    We already have a GW2, you mean GW3?

    Personally I think the only people that would play a WoW2 are the people that were disenchanted with WoW, and while might make for good box sales, I think a WoW2 would see the same fate as Ashron's Call 2 or EverQuest2 did, which is to say, not much.

    The biggest problem is that MMO depend on population, if you are going to make a game that does not depend on population, is not a world for players to build friendships in, or be able to enjoy open ended play together, you are better off, far, far, better off, just making a single player game.

    WOW2 probably is a tough sell, but I still think World of StarCraft done right is a licence to print money, bonus if they actually put some innovation into it.


    Ungood

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    It's probably just harder to improve online games because it is more about the gameplay.  Other genre really just improve their graphics etc.  

    I don't even know what Wow2 or GW2 GW3 can potentially looks like because better mmorpg don't exist.  

    you see other genre improving, but mmorpg is just stagnant.  
    We already have a GW2, you mean GW3?

    Personally I think the only people that would play a WoW2 are the people that were disenchanted with WoW, and while might make for good box sales, I think a WoW2 would see the same fate as Ashron's Call 2 or EverQuest2 did, which is to say, not much.

    The biggest problem is that MMO depend on population, if you are going to make a game that does not depend on population, is not a world for players to build friendships in, or be able to enjoy open ended play together, you are better off, far, far, better off, just making a single player game.

    WOW2 probably is a tough sell, but I still think World of StarCraft done right is a licence to print money, bonus if they actually put some innovation into it.


    Yah

    Tend to agree with you on this one, StarCraft Online, I think if they did it right, could really be the Next WoW, I mean, like the next Huge Ass Blockbuster game

    I know I would give it a try, even if it had a sub.
    Kyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Kyleran said:
    WOW2 probably is a tough sell, but I still think World of StarCraft done right is a licence to print money, bonus if they actually put some innovation into it.

    Disagree, I think Wow 2 would sell over 40 million units.  At release it would have over 10 million players easily.

    Starcraft I think could do good, but it would probably be a pvp game based on 3 factions.  PVP space MMO wont beat an equivalent fantasy PVE based MMO.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Brainy said:
    Kyleran said:
    WOW2 probably is a tough sell, but I still think World of StarCraft done right is a licence to print money, bonus if they actually put some innovation into it.

    Disagree, I think Wow 2 would sell over 40 million units.  At release it would have over 10 million players easily.

    Starcraft I think could do good, but it would probably be a pvp game based on 3 factions.  PVP space MMO wont beat an equivalent fantasy PVE based MMO.
    You know what, depending on how well it was advertised, I wager a WoW2 could sell 40 million units, just on pure Brand Power

    How many it might retain, would greatly depend on how great a game it was

    If they Abandoned WoW to Maintenance Mode in favor of WoW2, they would stand to lose a huge portion of their WoW player base as well, and I am not sure how many of them would move to WoW2, but I wager not many as gamers can be very petty and feel betrayed very easy.

    So that would greatly hurt their Brand going forward

    Again, all of this greatly depends on how they handled things


    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Brainy said:
    If by "you people" you are refering to the hundreds of millions of gamers that are ignoring almost all the new MMO's out there.  Then yeah I am one of those.

    Nobody wants to play this trash, this is why all the players quit within 30 days.  Yes its easy to please the players.  Just make a good game and watch the money tree grow.

    If anything people have lowered their standards by multple levels and are still dissapointed, the dev teams are just completely out of touch with thier customers.

    When AAA company's cant even maintain more 2% of thier population.  The games are so trash that even people that bought the game and can play for free wont even waste their time.  Dont blame the customer, blame the dev teams that are putting out this garbage.
    Alright, lets get to the Brass tacks here, your stand is that Modern Games are Shit

    So, What do I the player "Win" under your system, when you so clearly pointed out that developers are struggling to give their trashy modern games away for free.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    UngoodSovrath
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    ScotKyleran

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    kitarad said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    As far as I know every MMO that has done a classic has done well with it, but long term to what effect? The designers certainly at Blizzard have stated how well classic was doing would have no effect on the "modern game". To the studios they were making a different game and never the twain shall meet.

    I queried WoW2 because there are so many unknowns in how a new MMORPG will pan out, but on paper yes it would print money.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    kitarad said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    It was a flash in the pan that was dead within the year, by every metric that an MMO might judge success, it failed. 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    As far as I know every MMO that has done a classic has done well with it, but long term to what effect? The designers certainly at Blizzard have stated how well classic was doing would have no effect on the "modern game". To the studios they were making a different game and never the twain shall meet.

    I queried WoW2 because there are so many unknowns in how a new MMORPG will pan out, but on paper yes it would print money.
    The reason legacy servers do not last, is the people wanting them, want something from the past to enjoy, that was not soiled by some update, expansion or design decision that was made, but, a Legacy server will in fact make all those same exact fuck ups that drove people to want a legacy server to start with. So it's by it's very construct, it is something designed to fail the very people that wanted it to start with.

    Which is why they have no long term sustainability, at some point they will become the game the players hated

    Which is why Blizzard said "You really don't want this" they were not wrong, the players that want the legacy servers will eventually all leave, because all the shit that drove them away will happen again, but Blizzard figured, like Brainy, "Fuck it, let's make some box sales"
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    As far as I know every MMO that has done a classic has done well with it, but long term to what effect? The designers certainly at Blizzard have stated how well classic was doing would have no effect on the "modern game". To the studios they were making a different game and never the twain shall meet.

    I queried WoW2 because there are so many unknowns in how a new MMORPG will pan out, but on paper yes it would print money.
    The reason legacy servers do not last, is the people wanting them, want something from the past to enjoy, that was not soiled by some update, expansion or design decision that was made, but, a Legacy server will in fact make all those same exact fuck ups that drove people to want a legacy server to start with. So it's by it's very construct, it is something designed to fail the very people that wanted it to start with.

    Which is why they have no long term sustainability, at some point they will become the game the players hated

    Which is why Blizzard said "You really don't want this" they were not wrong, the players that want the legacy servers will eventually all leave, because all the shit that drove them away will happen again, but Blizzard figured, like Brainy, "Fuck it, let's make some box sales"
    I think the classic serves are in decline but that's because all MMO populations decline over time. You mentioned the game becoming not what they wanted because of a dlc, true, but many players started classic saying they were looking forward to this or that dlc. We all have a different point where we think a game is perfect, be it modern or classic.
    Sovrath
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    The players want classic "STYLE" wow, with new content.  Blizzard went cheap and resold the exact same game.  The game actually was extremely popular, it actually was as popular as WoW retail for awhile.  It remained popular up until Wrath expansion.  Everyone knows what is coming so its in decline.

    Instead of new content, WoW has said they are going to build a LEV 20 raid game.  How they ever thought a newbie raid game would make classic players happy LOL.  Blizzard is full of morons.

    Players need a new game, not the exact same game to play over and over forever.  Of course people are going to quit if you expect them to do groundhogs day forever.

    J Allen Brack former Blizzard president - was both right and wrong about players wanting Classic, when he said "you think you do, but you dont"

    Players dont want the exact same game, they want a similiar experence with classic style difficulty and less hand holding.  Players also want "SOME" conveniences, not EZ mode.  There is a balance and Blizzard execs dont get it.
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Ungood said:
    Alright, lets get to the Brass tacks here, your stand is that Modern Games are Shit

    So, What do I the player "Win" under your system, when you so clearly pointed out that developers are struggling to give their trashy modern games away for free.

    Free with Cash shops appeal to whales.  Average players dont like this system, which is why there is no loyalty in this system.

    B2P encourages dev teams to make good games, here and now, and RELEASE them, not empty promises.  In general games that are really good will sell and make tons of money.  Encouraging more of these games.  Thats good for the customer.

    B2P model is good for both customers and developers.  It encourages good NEW games, with reasonable launch dates.  It also gives a direct feedback loop to Devs when they make bad games.

    F2P Cash shops encourage bad games, whales, and unloyal players that just switch game to game.

    Subs encourage games to stretch content unnecessarily, drawing players into an unnecessary boring grind.

    MMO's dont have to last forever.  MMO's just need lots of players to occupy the same world.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Scot said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    As far as I know every MMO that has done a classic has done well with it, but long term to what effect? The designers certainly at Blizzard have stated how well classic was doing would have no effect on the "modern game". To the studios they were making a different game and never the twain shall meet.

    I queried WoW2 because there are so many unknowns in how a new MMORPG will pan out, but on paper yes it would print money.
    The reason legacy servers do not last, is the people wanting them, want something from the past to enjoy, that was not soiled by some update, expansion or design decision that was made, but, a Legacy server will in fact make all those same exact fuck ups that drove people to want a legacy server to start with. So it's by it's very construct, it is something designed to fail the very people that wanted it to start with.

    Which is why they have no long term sustainability, at some point they will become the game the players hated

    Which is why Blizzard said "You really don't want this" they were not wrong, the players that want the legacy servers will eventually all leave, because all the shit that drove them away will happen again, but Blizzard figured, like Brainy, "Fuck it, let's make some box sales"
    I think the classic serves are in decline but that's because all MMO populations decline over time. You mentioned the game becoming not what they wanted because of a dlc, true, but many players started classic saying they were looking forward to this or that dlc. We all have a different point where we think a game is perfect, be it modern or classic.
    The problem with this, is that unless you like the Current version, at some point the legacy servers will suck for you, because it's inevitable that they will put in that content that you hated enough to leave over

    Which is why Legacy Servers do not have any sustainability. They are, by the nature of what they are, flash in the pan systems that are doomed to fail

    At best they are a quick cash grab, which I don't blame Blizzard for doing, but, lets not fool ourselves, that is all they are, and all they can or ever will be.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Brainy said:
    Ungood said:
    Alright, lets get to the Brass tacks here, your stand is that Modern Games are Shit

    So, What do I the player "Win" under your system, when you so clearly pointed out that developers are struggling to give their trashy modern games away for free.

    Free with Cash shops appeal to whales.  Average players dont like this system, which is why there is no loyalty in this system.

    B2P encourages dev teams to make good games, here and now, and RELEASE them, not empty promises.  In general games that are really good will sell and make tons of money.  Encouraging more of these games.  Thats good for the customer.

    B2P model is good for both customers and developers.  It encourages good NEW games, with reasonable launch dates.  It also gives a direct feedback loop to Devs when they make bad games.

    F2P Cash shops encourage bad games, whales, and unloyal players that just switch game to game.

    Subs encourage games to stretch content unnecessarily, drawing players into an unnecessary boring grind.

    MMO's dont have to last forever.  MMO's just need lots of players to occupy the same world.

    Well good luck with this idea.

    For me, I simply do not see any advantage for me the player with this idea, by every metric I can think of, it feels like I would be better off buying and playing a single player game then this 2 year MMO.

    If you are going to say "Well the servers would still be up" .. nahh man. I'm an average player, I am not going to buy and play a game I know is dead.

    Maybe you have super cool system to make it work, good luck with that, but, you would need some next level, new wave shit, that has never been done before to make this not tank like a lead balloon.

    If you could pull that off, great. But, taking what we have on either single player or MMO platforms, and putting a 2 year date on, I do not see how that will not end in misery for everyone involved.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,617
    I think any pricing model could work.  Not necessary one is better than the other.  

    I was looking at the GW2 numbers and seemed they rack in decent money every year.

    A bunch of those games are already buy to play.  It is just they keep updating and patching and milking more money.

    I think companies are always thinking about sequals, but they are just so scared players would quit the current games, that they never move on.  


    BrainyKyleran
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Ungood said:

    Well good luck with this idea.

    For me, I simply do not see any advantage for me the player with this idea, by every metric I can think of, it feels like I would be better off buying and playing a single player game then this 2 year MMO.

    If you are going to say "Well the servers would still be up" .. nahh man. I'm an average player, I am not going to buy and play a game I know is dead.

    Maybe you have super cool system to make it work, good luck with that, but, you would need some next level, new wave shit, that has never been done before to make this not tank like a lead balloon.

    If you could pull that off, great. But, taking what we have on either single player or MMO platforms, and putting a 2 year date on, I do not see how that will not end in misery for everyone involved.

    Why are you talking a 2 year end of world scenario?  Not everyone is going to move at the exact same time.  More likely players that arleady left the game will be the ones buying the new game.

    I remember when I was playing DAOC I couldnt get but a few people from my guild to move to WoW on release.  They liked DAOC and were not ready to go.  It wasnt for another year that many started to migrate.  Even then, many were playing both games at the same time.

    The other issue, that you can play a single player game.  How is that different than now?  All we get is garbage low quality MMO's right now, or OLD outdated already been played MMO's.

    Single player game is not the same as an MMO game.  MMO's are for players that want to play with other people.  This makes the 2 year release schedule even better.  Because people who like playing with others, will always have a game thats thriving, rather than one that is a dead world.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Brainy said:
    Ungood said:

    If you could pull that off, great. But, taking what we have on either single player or MMO platforms, and putting a 2 year date on, I do not see how that will not end in misery for everyone involved.

    Why are you talking a 2 year end of world scenario?  Not everyone is going to move at the exact same time.  More likely players that arleady left the game will be the ones buying the new game.
    Because , Brainy, that is what you are selling.

    That's your sales pitch

    An MMO that will be dead in 2 years from it's launch.

    That is your idea, selling a Stand Alone MMO that's dead in 2 years, and then Selling Another Stand Alone MMO, that you will kill in 2 years.. rinse and repeat ad nauseam. 

    No matter what you might say, or what dream you might cling to, once the new one comes out and previous one goes into Maintenance Mode, it's dead. No one will buy it, and outside some delusional holdout, that will hate you till the end of time for killing it, no one will play it.

    Now, nothing personal and No hate from me, in fact, I wish you the best with this idea.

    But unless you have some amazing plan in place or game design, that's never been done before that will magically make this work.

    If I was a backer, I would not touch this idea

    As a gamer, I'll admit, you might sucker me with the first one, but unless I left long before that 2 year mark content, and happy, I don't see myself buying 2 or 3 down the line.

    And just for reference, just repeating "it would make a better game" does not in fact make that statement true, there is a lot of B2P shit games out there
    Dodgybloke
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • DodgyblokeDodgybloke Member UncommonPosts: 20
    edited December 2023
    Honestly, I don't think the concept is great, nice on paper but to be able to turn out a new game every two years, you would essentially have to use the same engine you used on the last game (perhaps with a few tweaks) and just change the environment and assets.

    Not to mention, the last thing you want is for people not to move to the next game, imagine how much loss you would be making on the previous games if you got to the 10 year mark and had a back catalogue of 4 games you had to keep running for the servers/support for a handful of players.

    I can imagine in that scenario, you would either have to sell them to a company that specializes in making non profitable games profitable (daybreak for example) or turn them into P2W games yourself, which would kind of ruin the whole concept.

    KyleranUngood
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    Ungood said:
    kitarad said:
    Ungood said:
    Scot said:
    kitarad said:
    Yeah WoW 2 would print money.
    Hmm that's what they said about EQ2.
    They also said that WoW Classic would be a huge hit.
    It was and compared to the numbers playing other MMORPGs with the exception FFXIV it still is.
    It was a flash in the pan that was dead within the year, by every metric that an MMO might judge success, it failed. 
    The thing about WoW is the very, very active private server base. I don't think Blizzard can even compete with these private servers. They even provide new content and gear and various combination of rules. They are huge and based in places Blizzard cannot get to. Unlike other games people don't need the classical game Blizzard is providing and most opt to play on the private servers. If you're part of the community you will realise this.

    That classical became a flash in the pan is not really Blizzards fault or lack of interest in vanilla WoW. It's the opposite. They are so many servers and almost every month new versions come out. It is exhausting to even keep up.
    Ungood
    Garrus Signature
  • mekheremekhere Member UncommonPosts: 273
    Let's just all agree, all MMO's were ruined by upgrades and nerf's. A great example would be, New Frontiers. It killed DAOC. They need to leave the base game alone and just add new zones like EQ2 did.
    Ungood
    This user is a registered flex offender. 
    Someone who is registered as being a flex offender is a person who feels the need to flex about everything they say.
    Always be the guy that paints the house in the dark.  
    Lucidity can be forged with enough liquidity and pharmed for decades with enough compound interest that a reachable profit would never end. 

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,900
    edited December 2023
    I think this is getting overly complicated. Maybe I'm just simple. Games like WoW 2004, EQ1 1999, DAoC, all used the same format. Make a good game and charge a fair price. Masses of people jumped at these games throwing their money at this model. Gamers know when they are being gouged and simply disengaging when they're sick of it. Win / Win like the OP stated is what game developers need to start looking at, over looking at gamers as wallets to suck dry. 
    BrainyScot
  • BrainyBrainy Member EpicPosts: 2,206
    Honestly, I don't think the concept is great, nice on paper but to be able to turn out a new game every two years, you would essentially have to use the same engine you used on the last game (perhaps with a few tweaks) and just change the environment and assets.

    Not to mention, the last thing you want is for people not to move to the next game, imagine how much loss you would be making on the previous games if you got to the 10 year mark and had a back catalogue of 4 games you had to keep running for the servers/support for a handful of players.

    I can imagine in that scenario, you would either have to sell them to a company that specializes in making non profitable games profitable (daybreak for example) or turn them into P2W games yourself, which would kind of ruin the whole concept.

    Well AAA developers of games have been doing this for years in all the other genres, so its not exactly a big leap.  Also 2 years is just a number as I stated before.  The idea is to stop working on major patches, content and expansions and put that into a new game with a fresh audience.

    In regards to keeping old games going on a server.  This is ridiculous.  The cost of keeping a server or 2 going is extremely small.  If the games are as dead as you say, you can just compact them into 1 server for each game.  This is complete chump change for a AAA developer to keep 4 servers going geez.  Blizzard has been doing this for years with many more than a few servers for Starcraft2, Diablo.

    People still buy old games if they are good, so this would pay for itself easily anyways.  Even with Zero revenue from the old game, this is an extremely small cost for a $1billion to $8billion game.
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