I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I liked what UO did. If you were behind your friends, as long as you were more than a Newb, they could take you along to their Dungeon Runs and protect you, and Res you if needed. You got extra Skill Gain by facing tougher MOBs. Best part was that players got Skill Gains from watching other players, too. It doesn't take long to "catch up", that way. But then, UO wasn't a "Paint by Numbers" sort of game design, you could go anywhere. You weren't "missing content" by doing that, you were just "living" your character. Because the content was mushed closer together, just like Player advancement, removing most of the divisive issues while still giving meaning to vertical advancement.
What sense does it make for a character's HPs to go from 50 to 5,000,000? Why do we need that? All that does is give you googly eyes. And googly eyes are weird.
Well, again, GW2 has been made the right moves in this direction by making the highest tier gear available to anyone, with making Open World Legendary Armor, IMHO, correcting the mistake they made in 2015 with their release of Raids, this allowing PvP, WvW, Raids, and Open World players to now have their own path to the best Armor in the Game. Which is why I retuned to playing GW2. No Joke, I had taken a LOT of breaks, for a long time, between HoT and SOTO.
Truth be told, I think you have your own unsolvable problem, where you want more power, but don't think people should be allowed to take pride in their efforts obtain it
I agree GW2 has made many good choices, I dont consider GW2 a bad game because it lacks power progression, just something I am not into, if anything I would like to enjoy GW2 but the graphics, the lack of constant power progression and combat that is a bit spammy, rather than cooldown based with highs and lows makes me unable to enjoy it.
At some point you have to accept that some mmos are not made for you, FF14's Yoshi P has explained a major reason why they dont like customization is because of the balance issues and because of the metaslaving and discrimination that happens with it.
His reason is correct, it makes absolute sense, but since a core part I enjoy in MMOs is making my own builds based on my playstyle, it is clear that game just isnt for me, even though I consider it one of the best mmos out there for its great animations, magnificent story and world, missing one core aspect I need kinda kills it for me.
Both games are great, they have focused on their own thing and were consistent.
WoW would be another example, though worse because the devs like to try pander to everyone, it gives the wrong signals, you cant pander to everyone when you also try to pander to mentally unhealthy people who like you said, NEED someone to look down on others. Its why they made a lot of great systems for casuals during Legion-BfA but because of constant complaining from the raidloggers were removed/gutted:
-Titanforging was removed (Cuz omg a filthy casual got a mythic piece from world quests) ignoring the fact mythic players had a way higher total gearscore than someone who got a lucky drop.
-Muh borrowed power, being utterly upset that they needed to play the actual game instead of raidlog to level that. Plus solving the problem of classes becoming stale and samey over xpacs without it.
-Torghast, literally an excellent idea for solo content that was gutted in terms of rewards cuz raidloggers cried they were forced to do filthy casual content in BfA through visions of nzoth. And they still cried even though you only had to do it twice for legendary armor currency
Again a constant issue, raidloggers believe all rewards should come from raidlogging and having to play the rest of the game causes them to complain and cry until all casual/solo content gets trashed. If you try to pander to this, you cannot pander to someone else, its a design ideology that opposes everything else.
I dont think taking pride on your personal achievements is a bad thing, that though is PERSONAL, if you know you did well, if you know you performed well, you can take pride in that, but insecure people cannot do that, they REQUIRE external validation from the developers, its why they desperately need to have something others dont have and why the idea that every player can reach max gear is offensive to them.
Ungood said: Being
passionate about a hobby, Ergo, or having high emptions and opinions
about changes, is very common for any and all hobbies, and often result
in angry outbursts, rage, and feelings of being slighted, this is so
very not unique to MMO's however, this does affect all hobbies.
If
they are so passionate to the point of irrational anger, I would also
not consider very healthy, you ve seen the vitriol game devs have to
deal in any popular mmo.
The reality is the
devs dont try to keep a game unbalanced for the lulz or some evil
reason(usually), more often than not terrible balance changes happen
because the devs pander to a specific section of the playerbase.
Ion,
the wow dev who is a known raidlogger had admitted at some point that
they dont like doing heavy balance changes mid season because the
metaslaves who abused broken builds would suddenly be unable to clear
previous mythic bosses because they only cleared it by abusing broken
meta classes and combs, he used nicer words of course but I like to
point out the ugly reality.
Which sounds
very wrong, after all if you cant do the mechanics the devs designed and
have to rely on broken classes and combs to avoid doing the fight the
intended way, it doesnt sound you deserve to get the kill.
That
is another reason why video game """skill""" is such a meaningless
thing to obsess over, it ends up just being a delusional form of ego
that creates the most mentally unhealthy players.
And because of that reason WoW allows classes to be quite broken for 6 months+ until the next big content patch.
I utterly disagree with that idea, I consider it wrong, but I see his perspective and what he is trying to do.
Balance
changes have a reason behind them, I know because I actually pay
attention to what the developers say, meanwhile the forums(and your guild) are full of
angry children literally raging and believe the devs made changes cuz
they "hate" their class or cuz they are utterly incompetent and they
know better, they are completely blinded by rage and emotions, neither I
consider healthy.
And of course, the stronger evidence of mental problems is when you keep playing something that makes you angry and unhappy.
I
show that WoW at the end of Shadowlands went full raidlogger pandering
and I jumped ship, it was this easy, I knew the game would not be fun
and, therefore I stopped playing, but when their self worth is attached
to an mmo they ve invested years of their life in, that unhealthy
connection makes them unable to quit, therefore they spiral into more
anger, hatred and misery.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont think taking pride on your personal achievements is a bad thing, that though is PERSONAL, if you know you did well, if you know you performed well, you can take pride in that
I've been thinking about this. (While you said a lot more, this is something I want to talk about)
One of the things you will hear from every successful business owner is "You need to respect your clients Time and Money"
Now as we discuss this point, a lot of players (Not the Raid Loggers, as you call them) But the average players, the people that are there to have fun, but they also want their time to be respected.
So I am going to start off by saying, I despise the phrase "It's just a game" this is a total shit line, and it shows a lack of understanding what is really going on with these players, these gamers, they are clients of that company, and it really, and I mean, it really, does not matter the product, it does not matter the circumstance, what I as a client, is my time and money respected.
It is not the Mythic E-Peen of Everything Slaying that they want others to admire and respect, what I want is for the game company that set up the systems where it took me 1,000 hours of grinding to get that, to respect my Time Investment to get that
If they just toss it out for no effort later, that leaves a lot of players feeling very slighted, and that is not a good thing for any company to do.
I'll give a great example of this, in GW2, with SOTO, they made Skyscales really easy to get in contrast to how hard they were in PoF. But, it's not the same, see if I had the Original Skyscale, I got some extra boons if I completed the SOTO skyscale quest, I get a little extra, to show that, yah, I have them both.
Now, anyone can still get them both, but if you want them both, then you need to put in the same time effort I did to get the first one. It will be easier for you, since you will have a Skyscale to help you, but then again, it was easier for me to get the SOTO Skyscale because I had mine to help me with that, so it balances out.
This is what game companies need to keep in mind when they think about their players, and that time investment, and all too often they do not do this when it comes to catch up mechanics, but there are a lot of ways a company could reward their players who put in the time, without needing to just slap a +1 on their ass and call it done.
The other aspect is Money, and how a company needs to respect the money a client has put into their service. A Prime example of this, again, GW2, when they bundled HoT with PoF, (Basically making HoT Free), they gave everyone that had bought the HoT expansion a Glider Skin, Shared Inventory Slot, and a 80th level Boost, and I think a Title.
None of this equated to power, but it was a way to say "We respect your money investment to have bought HoT" even if they are giving it away for free to new players, they didn't want those that bought it to feel slighted. Now, this is no doubt why Anet survived making such a blunder fuck up that was HoT to begin with, and other MMO's have never been so lucky.
Giving players that respect, by saying "I respect the you have put into our service" "I Respect the money you have put into our service" they have managed to weather some, really, and I mean, really, stupid decisions from the top down, and why their player base puts up with them, when they would not put up with a lot of their competitors.
For a lot of players, average players, it really is about our time and money being respected, it is not that I expect people to suck my dick because I have great gear, but I expect the company that made the time sinks to get it, to respect that I put in that time to do it
If you plan to give away what I had to work for, toss me something to show that you understand that was my time.
When a company does not respect their clients time and money, they rightfully lose those clients, and it does not matter what the service or product is.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I dont think taking pride on your personal achievements is a bad thing, that though is PERSONAL, if you know you did well, if you know you performed well, you can take pride in that
So I am going to start off by saying, I despise the phrase "It's just a game" this is a total shit line, and it shows a lack of understanding what is really going on with these players, these gamers, they are clients of that company, and it really, and I mean, it really, does not matter the product, it does not matter the circumstance, what I as a client, is my time and money respected.
Thank you for your post.
I've thought for quite some time now that game companies are missing the opportunity to move these from 'games' to 'hobbies'. That is an important distinction to me in that for a game to become a hobby it would need to be carefully curated.
Imagine professional sports of any sort - there is quite a bit of thought put into even the slightest rule changes. We don't get much of that in gaming, next to no thought at all.
The term curated is important to me for a couple of reasons. One, most players wouldn't understand a game that is a hobby as they're living for the level dings and not the adventure. Second, the term means that the team understands the gravity and importance of coherent worlds and the import of change.
I'd be delighted to drop $50 per month on a subscription to a carefully curated game that is actually a hobby. People blow thousands on hobbies, but the current FTP/Store/P2W crapfest isn't even worth an install at free.
I dont think taking pride on your personal achievements is a bad thing, that though is PERSONAL, if you know you did well, if you know you performed well, you can take pride in that
So I am going to start off by saying, I despise the phrase "It's just a game" this is a total shit line, and it shows a lack of understanding what is really going on with these players, these gamers, they are clients of that company, and it really, and I mean, it really, does not matter the product, it does not matter the circumstance, what I as a client, is my time and money respected.
Thank you for your post.
I've thought for quite some time now that game companies are missing the opportunity to move these from 'games' to 'hobbies'. That is an important distinction to me in that for a game to become a hobby it would need to be carefully curated.
Imagine professional sports of any sort - there is quite a bit of thought put into even the slightest rule changes. We don't get much of that in gaming, next to no thought at all.
The term curated is important to me for a couple of reasons. One, most players wouldn't understand a game that is a hobby as they're living for the level dings and not the adventure. Second, the term means that the team understands the gravity and importance of coherent worlds and the import of change.
I'd be delighted to drop $50 per month on a subscription to a carefully curated game that is actually a hobby. People blow thousands on hobbies, but the current FTP/Store/P2W crapfest isn't even worth an install at free.
The question becomes, what does this MMORPG Hobby look like, and what does this "curated" look like? Perhaps a new topic is needed?
Vertical progression is a really nice way to create a broken game full of stupid problems.
Every design has flaws and problems. There are solutions to them, but sometimes that requires a completely different method of thinking. Then sometimes the solutions to those problems create more unforseen problems. What I have realized as a designer is that you have to mask those problems as much as you can to create a fun playable experience. Like some posters said above, its about how you approach the inherit structure of the design.
One of the main issues that is presented for catch up mechanics in a vertical progression game is through the design philosophy of expansions. I am may be on to something here, but not sure.
This is something I have been thinking about and it may be the same or mask a problem for catch up mechanics. Just curious on what others think.
I like the idea of the main game to have a max level for that content. So say you have World A and the max level is 50.
Typically, in vertical progression every expansion most likely will have a level cap increase.
What if, each expansion offers its own leveling experience, where every player has to start all over for leveling. (I already can see alarms going off when you read this, but read further before you post)
Let's say Expansion 1 drops.
In Expansion one, the level range is maybe 1-20. So for the expansion zones, you start from level 1-20. However, the gear you have obtained and the abilities are NOT removed or worthless in any expansion. They are simply your base items in which expansions can layer off.
Why start all over at level 1 for Expansion 1? Think of it like you're a Martial Artist class. The main game you learn Karate from an American Sensei. Then for expansion 1, you learn different methods from a Karate master in some China wilderness or whatever. You still retain what you've learned from American Karate Sensei, but now you're going to build upon your "classes" knowledge from the Chinese Karate Master.
So lets say players get a max level at 20 in Expansion 1. When they go back to the main game world map, they transition back to Level 50. Then when they venture in Expansion 1 zones, they transition their level back to Level 20. Also, players retain any ability or gear they get in Expansion 1 into the Main World and future expansions.
The power creep in any expansion should be mildly modest in power. That way, the power builds slowly.
Essentially, every expansion is somewhat self contained and makes it potentially more approachable without making the expansion content, time, gear, upgrades worthless when a new one comes out.
I think my biggest gripe is that it devalues your time for those who played the game when first released. Anything you earned during that time as a player is eroded when new players can get the same item or lower cost of something or xp boosts. On the other side of the coin, it does help alt play easier and can help new players catch up, but it does devalue their experience.
the moment new content renders anything you have gained beforehand obsolete means the developers are already devaluing your time.
I think my biggest gripe is that it devalues your time for those who played the game when first released. Anything you earned during that time as a player is eroded when new players can get the same item or lower cost of something or xp boosts. On the other side of the coin, it does help alt play easier and can help new players catch up, but it does devalue their experience.
the moment new content renders anything you have gained beforehand obsolete means the developers are already devaluing your time.
The value of your time is worthless, that was already a given when you spent significant time in an MMO.
The moment you start thinking in those terms, you devalue your time, not the developers.
I imagine we're in agreement then
Aren't we supposed to be playing a videogame primarily for fun? (hopefully)
A traditional mmorpg does not value a players time in terms of their character progression so you best hope you're having fun while playing it and that's actually OK. There's nothing exactly bad about it (XIV and WOW) for example.
On the other hand there's games like RS, BDO and GW2 that have their own problems but you could take a year break and your gear is still relevant to a certain degree
If one is playing for fun then you could say why would one really care about if a developer makes things easier to new players or people wanting to catch up? You actually got to experience the content when it was fresh/new/relevant and those new players get to either skip or experience a version that's a shell of its former self.
As cheesy as it sounds people should focus on their own game and enjoyment. Maybe the 10 years playing XIV are kinda pointless in terms of character progression because only the new patch content is relevant in terms of character advancement but one wouldn't be playing if they weren't enjoying it in the first place no?
I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I agree. I love vertical progression but there is a point when early players just pass so far ahead of new players that there is no real hope of significantly closing the gap.
My thought is that vertical progression should allow such a wide gap. It should be large but not HUGE. Then there should be a very wide bit of horizontal progression. This way players can constantly hone their characters, add something new, but not have 500,000 hp over the 100 hit points (or whatever) a new player would have.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I agree. I love vertical progression but there is a point when early players just pass so far ahead of new players that there is no real hope of significantly closing the gap.
My thought is that vertical progression should allow such a wide gap. It should be large but not HUGE. Then there should be a very wide bit of horizontal progression. This way players can constantly hone their characters, add something new, but not have 500,000 hp over the 100 hit points (or whatever) a new player would have.
I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I agree. I love vertical progression but there is a point when early players just pass so far ahead of new players that there is no real hope of significantly closing the gap.
My thought is that vertical progression should allow such a wide gap. It should be large but not HUGE. Then there should be a very wide bit of horizontal progression. This way players can constantly hone their characters, add something new, but not have 500,000 hp over the 100 hit points (or whatever) a new player would have.
Yeah, whatevers. LOL
which part was "whatever?" Me agreeing with you or me thinking that high level should be a bit compressed and there be an added horizontal progression system? I'm going to go with me agreeing with you.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I agree. I love vertical progression but there is a point when early players just pass so far ahead of new players that there is no real hope of significantly closing the gap.
My thought is that vertical progression should allow such a wide gap. It should be large but not HUGE. Then there should be a very wide bit of horizontal progression. This way players can constantly hone their characters, add something new, but not have 500,000 hp over the 100 hit points (or whatever) a new player would have.
Yeah, whatevers. LOL
which part was "whatever?" Me agreeing with you or me thinking that high level should be a bit compressed and there be an added horizontal progression system? I'm going to go with me agreeing with you.
I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, that's the way to go. But it still depends on the eventual numbers and gaps for it to be successful. I'm thinking that "large but not huge" may still be too much of a problem, considering how huge the numbers are currently.
(I'm thinking of this as being a steady decrease in HPs gained (down to a small minimum), and a steady increase in horizontal progression.)
Vertical progression is a really nice way to create a broken game full of stupid problems.
Every design has flaws and problems. There are solutions to them, but sometimes that requires a completely different method of thinking. Then sometimes the solutions to those problems create more unforseen problems. What I have realized as a designer is that you have to mask those problems as much as you can to create a fun playable experience. Like some posters said above, its about how you approach the inherit structure of the design.
Vertical Progression Games have pros and cons.
Horizontal Progression Games have pros and cons.
Each are objective and subjective.
Sure.
I think vertical progression is less of an issue in PvE, but is a game killer in PvP.
I like Battlefield as a model for PvP - you can be absolutely deadly with the starting knife but there are certainly advantages to unlocking other skills/weapons. In fact, I'd often run with only the knife in a world full of gun toting maniacs because knifing someone was hysterically funny and worth the risk.
I'd like to see a similar approach to PvP in a MMORPG - where a noob with a knife could be on the board rather quickly.
I think my biggest gripe is that it devalues your time for those who played the game when first released. Anything you earned during that time as a player is eroded when new players can get the same item or lower cost of something or xp boosts. On the other side of the coin, it does help alt play easier and can help new players catch up, but it does devalue their experience.
the moment new content renders anything you have gained beforehand obsolete means the developers are already devaluing your time.
The moment you start thinking in those terms, you devalue your time, not the developers.
Nahh
This is complete fallacy
If you devalue your time because you use it to play a game, that is your fault, and your fault alone, but I still expect the Devs that make that game to respect the time I have put into it, because they are the ones that set the time sinks into the game
If we are not going to respect someone's time because they use to play game, then all the following arguments are moot:
Catch Up Mechanics: Worthless, if your time playing has no value, there is no need to "Catch You Up" just play the game, like everyone else, and that's all there is to it. Why should the Devs care about a new players time more then an older players time when both of their times are worthless?
Pay 2 Win: If your time in the game has no value, then it should not matter if someone can pay to bypass it, or even pay to get better things then you, because your time has no meaning, No value, no worth and thus not respected.
In fact if you look at every single gamer argument, it all boils down to one thing!
Players want their Time they invested into the game to matter.
Simple as that, they want their money and their time, respected, if they cannot respect their own time, then everything else about the game, literally, everything about the game becomes invalid, because the time spent in it, is invalid.
Which makes disrespecting a fellow gamers time, the most asinine stand any gamer could possess.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I agree. I love vertical progression but there is a point when early players just pass so far ahead of new players that there is no real hope of significantly closing the gap.
My thought is that vertical progression should allow such a wide gap. It should be large but not HUGE. Then there should be a very wide bit of horizontal progression. This way players can constantly hone their characters, add something new, but not have 500,000 hp over the 100 hit points (or whatever) a new player would have.
Yeah, whatevers. LOL
which part was "whatever?" Me agreeing with you or me thinking that high level should be a bit compressed and there be an added horizontal progression system? I'm going to go with me agreeing with you.
I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, that's the way to go. But it still depends on the eventual numbers and gaps for it to be successful. I'm thinking that "large but not huge" may still be too much of a problem, considering how huge the numbers are currently.
(I'm thinking of this as being a steady decrease in HPs gained (down to a small minimum), and a steady increase in horizontal progression.)
Exactly. I mean, I don't know how that would work out but I still like the idea of players becoming powerful but not so powerful that they are gods and one shot other players. I remember being able to one shot lower level characters, not even level one characters but like 40's or so (if memory serves though it might not) and while that was great for "me" in a pvp game it did seem sort of unfair that they can't even fight back.
But then again, I think there should be reward for being higher level. That's part of the fun and being "more" powerful is part of that reward.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you devalue your time because you use it to play a game, that is your fault, and your fault alone, but I still expect the Devs that make that game to respect the time I have put into it, because they are the ones that set the time sinks into the game
If we are not going to respect someone's time because they use to play game, then all the following arguments are moot:
Catch Up Mechanics: Worthless, if your time playing has no value, there is no need to "Catch You Up" just play the game, like everyone else, and that's all there is to it. Why should the Devs care about a new players time more then an older players time when both of their times are worthless?
Pay 2 Win: If your time in the game has no value, then it should not matter if someone can pay to bypass it, or even pay to get better things then you, because your time has no meaning, No value, no worth and thus not respected.
In fact if you look at every single gamer argument, it all boils down to one thing!
Players want their Time they invested into the game to matter.
Simple as that, they want their money and their time, respected, if they cannot respect their own time, then everything else about the game, literally, everything about the game becomes invalid, because the time spent in it, is invalid.
Which makes disrespecting a fellow gamers time, the most asinine stand any gamer could possess.
Time sinks: the developer devalues my time because they make their game unfun right now. If I partake in a game with time sinks as an "investment", I am also devaluing my time because the game is not serving its purpose.
I can appreciate not everyone has fun the same way. Some want to feel the accomplishment of reaching a goal after grinding in some way and that's fine: no one can take that sense of accomplishment away once you do that. If they can, again that's on you.
Imagine if you went to McDonalds, and they charge you $10.50 BigMac, You pay, and you enjoy your Big Mac. Then they charge the next person $3.50 for a BigMac
While that does not technically change your enjoyment eating your BigMac, anyone that would say they didn't feel at least somewhat slighted witnessing that is full of shit
Now if you complain about fairness, other burger eaters are like "It's a BigMac, what kind of loser gets upset about a bigmac!?"
But it's not the BigMac, it about the company respecting your time and treating you fairly.
Understand?
I personally do not think you will, I think you will reject this logic, not because it is unsound, but simply because you do not like it.
Now to be blunt, No one gives a fuck what you think as a player, your voice means a little less then jack diddly shit, now maybe you don't give a shit if a company devalues your efforts, but you willing to be a doormat and treated like that, does not equate to anyone else agreeing with your view. The others that agree with you, that want to be treated poorly and disrespected, that is also on them.
You love the idea of paying 10.50 for that burger, and love it twice as much seeing someone else buy it for 3.50, that is all on you.
But when it comes to someone else, how they feel when a company disrespects the time they put into their product, no amount of "Well you had your fun" is going to amount to a single turd of consideration
Now lets not fool ourselves, this the devs money maker, this is what is paying their bills, this is their fucking job, and you know a great way to lose a client?
That's right, disrespect them. Dis the time and money they put into your product, that is a surefire way to lose them.
And if you really didn't know that, well not sure what to tell you. Maybe you like being treated poorly.
You're not alone, sadly.
But no one really willingly wants to join you in that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
I liked what UO did. If you were behind your friends, as long as you were more than a Newb, they could take you along to their Dungeon Runs and protect you, and Res you if needed. You got extra Skill Gain by facing tougher MOBs. Best part was that players got Skill Gains from watching other players, too.
It doesn't take long to "catch up", that way.
But then, UO wasn't a "Paint by Numbers" sort of game design, you could go anywhere. You weren't "missing content" by doing that, you were just "living" your character.
Because the content was mushed closer together, just like Player advancement, removing most of the divisive issues while still giving meaning to vertical advancement.
What sense does it make for a character's HPs to go from 50 to 5,000,000?
Why do we need that?
All that does is give you googly eyes. And googly eyes are weird.
Once upon a time....
Its why they made a lot of great systems for casuals during Legion-BfA but because of constant complaining from the raidloggers were removed/gutted:
Catch-up is an abomination in the genre that hurts the most dedicated and talented in favor of the bottom of the barrel.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont think I have to in this case at all, the wording itself screams it lmao
One of the things you will hear from every successful business owner is "You need to respect your clients Time and Money"
Now as we discuss this point, a lot of players (Not the Raid Loggers, as you call them) But the average players, the people that are there to have fun, but they also want their time to be respected.
So I am going to start off by saying, I despise the phrase "It's just a game" this is a total shit line, and it shows a lack of understanding what is really going on with these players, these gamers, they are clients of that company, and it really, and I mean, it really, does not matter the product, it does not matter the circumstance, what I as a client, is my time and money respected.
It is not the Mythic E-Peen of Everything Slaying that they want others to admire and respect, what I want is for the game company that set up the systems where it took me 1,000 hours of grinding to get that, to respect my Time Investment to get that
If they just toss it out for no effort later, that leaves a lot of players feeling very slighted, and that is not a good thing for any company to do.
I'll give a great example of this, in GW2, with SOTO, they made Skyscales really easy to get in contrast to how hard they were in PoF. But, it's not the same, see if I had the Original Skyscale, I got some extra boons if I completed the SOTO skyscale quest, I get a little extra, to show that, yah, I have them both.
Now, anyone can still get them both, but if you want them both, then you need to put in the same time effort I did to get the first one. It will be easier for you, since you will have a Skyscale to help you, but then again, it was easier for me to get the SOTO Skyscale because I had mine to help me with that, so it balances out.
This is what game companies need to keep in mind when they think about their players, and that time investment, and all too often they do not do this when it comes to catch up mechanics, but there are a lot of ways a company could reward their players who put in the time, without needing to just slap a +1 on their ass and call it done.
The other aspect is Money, and how a company needs to respect the money a client has put into their service. A Prime example of this, again, GW2, when they bundled HoT with PoF, (Basically making HoT Free), they gave everyone that had bought the HoT expansion a Glider Skin, Shared Inventory Slot, and a 80th level Boost, and I think a Title.
None of this equated to power, but it was a way to say "We respect your money investment to have bought HoT" even if they are giving it away for free to new players, they didn't want those that bought it to feel slighted. Now, this is no doubt why Anet survived making such a blunder fuck up that was HoT to begin with, and other MMO's have never been so lucky.
Giving players that respect, by saying "I respect the you have put into our service" "I Respect the money you have put into our service" they have managed to weather some, really, and I mean, really, stupid decisions from the top down, and why their player base puts up with them, when they would not put up with a lot of their competitors.
For a lot of players, average players, it really is about our time and money being respected, it is not that I expect people to suck my dick because I have great gear, but I expect the company that made the time sinks to get it, to respect that I put in that time to do it
If you plan to give away what I had to work for, toss me something to show that you understand that was my time.
When a company does not respect their clients time and money, they rightfully lose those clients, and it does not matter what the service or product is.
I've thought for quite some time now that game companies are missing the opportunity to move these from 'games' to 'hobbies'. That is an important distinction to me in that for a game to become a hobby it would need to be carefully curated.
Imagine professional sports of any sort - there is quite a bit of thought put into even the slightest rule changes. We don't get much of that in gaming, next to no thought at all.
The term curated is important to me for a couple of reasons. One, most players wouldn't understand a game that is a hobby as they're living for the level dings and not the adventure. Second, the term means that the team understands the gravity and importance of coherent worlds and the import of change.
I'd be delighted to drop $50 per month on a subscription to a carefully curated game that is actually a hobby. People blow thousands on hobbies, but the current FTP/Store/P2W crapfest isn't even worth an install at free.
Perhaps a new topic is needed?
Once upon a time....
the moment new content renders anything you have gained beforehand obsolete means the developers are already devaluing your time.
I imagine we're in agreement then
Aren't we supposed to be playing a videogame primarily for fun? (hopefully)
A traditional mmorpg does not value a players time in terms of their character progression so you best hope you're having fun while playing it and that's actually OK. There's nothing exactly bad about it (XIV and WOW) for example.
On the other hand there's games like RS, BDO and GW2 that have their own problems but you could take a year break and your gear is still relevant to a certain degree
If one is playing for fun then you could say why would one really care about if a developer makes things easier to new players or people wanting to catch up? You actually got to experience the content when it was fresh/new/relevant and those new players get to either skip or experience a version that's a shell of its former self.
As cheesy as it sounds people should focus on their own game and enjoyment. Maybe the 10 years playing XIV are kinda pointless in terms of character progression because only the new patch content is relevant in terms of character advancement but one wouldn't be playing if they weren't enjoying it in the first place no?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Once upon a time....
which part was "whatever?" Me agreeing with you or me thinking that high level should be a bit compressed and there be an added horizontal progression system? I'm going to go with me agreeing with you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, that's the way to go.
But it still depends on the eventual numbers and gaps for it to be successful.
I'm thinking that "large but not huge" may still be too much of a problem, considering how huge the numbers are currently.
(I'm thinking of this as being a steady decrease in HPs gained (down to a small minimum), and a steady increase in horizontal progression.)
Once upon a time....
I think vertical progression is less of an issue in PvE, but is a game killer in PvP.
I like Battlefield as a model for PvP - you can be absolutely deadly with the starting knife but there are certainly advantages to unlocking other skills/weapons. In fact, I'd often run with only the knife in a world full of gun toting maniacs because knifing someone was hysterically funny and worth the risk.
I'd like to see a similar approach to PvP in a MMORPG - where a noob with a knife could be on the board rather quickly.
This is complete fallacy
If you devalue your time because you use it to play a game, that is your fault, and your fault alone, but I still expect the Devs that make that game to respect the time I have put into it, because they are the ones that set the time sinks into the game
If we are not going to respect someone's time because they use to play game, then all the following arguments are moot:
Catch Up Mechanics: Worthless, if your time playing has no value, there is no need to "Catch You Up" just play the game, like everyone else, and that's all there is to it. Why should the Devs care about a new players time more then an older players time when both of their times are worthless?
Pay 2 Win: If your time in the game has no value, then it should not matter if someone can pay to bypass it, or even pay to get better things then you, because your time has no meaning, No value, no worth and thus not respected.
In fact if you look at every single gamer argument, it all boils down to one thing!
Players want their Time they invested into the game to matter.
Simple as that, they want their money and their time, respected, if they cannot respect their own time, then everything else about the game, literally, everything about the game becomes invalid, because the time spent in it, is invalid.
Which makes disrespecting a fellow gamers time, the most asinine stand any gamer could possess.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Imagine if you went to McDonalds, and they charge you $10.50 BigMac, You pay, and you enjoy your Big Mac. Then they charge the next person $3.50 for a BigMac
While that does not technically change your enjoyment eating your BigMac, anyone that would say they didn't feel at least somewhat slighted witnessing that is full of shit
Now if you complain about fairness, other burger eaters are like "It's a BigMac, what kind of loser gets upset about a bigmac!?"
But it's not the BigMac, it about the company respecting your time and treating you fairly.
Understand?
I personally do not think you will, I think you will reject this logic, not because it is unsound, but simply because you do not like it.
Now to be blunt, No one gives a fuck what you think as a player, your voice means a little less then jack diddly shit, now maybe you don't give a shit if a company devalues your efforts, but you willing to be a doormat and treated like that, does not equate to anyone else agreeing with your view. The others that agree with you, that want to be treated poorly and disrespected, that is also on them.
You love the idea of paying 10.50 for that burger, and love it twice as much seeing someone else buy it for 3.50, that is all on you.
But when it comes to someone else, how they feel when a company disrespects the time they put into their product, no amount of "Well you had your fun" is going to amount to a single turd of consideration
Now lets not fool ourselves, this the devs money maker, this is what is paying their bills, this is their fucking job, and you know a great way to lose a client?
That's right, disrespect them. Dis the time and money they put into your product, that is a surefire way to lose them.
And if you really didn't know that, well not sure what to tell you. Maybe you like being treated poorly.
You're not alone, sadly.
But no one really willingly wants to join you in that.