I think both vertical and horizontal progression are needed and as long as those who can't catch up have plenty to do what is the issue? I do think alts need to have a speedier ascent but that's it, there are always new players climbing the ladder, but as long as they have plenty to do that's fine. I am going to sound so corny now, it should be a journey not a race.
The problem that catchup mechanics try to solve is nothing to do with content, but directly to do with multiplayer.
Vertical progression segregates the community, but the community (hopefully....) wants to play together. Catchup mechanics reduce the amount time it takes between a player joining the game and being able to play with their friends.
Doesn't really matter if you've got 300 hours of boring solo content to do if what you want to do is play with your mates.
Vertical progression does not have to be as harmful as it is in most games, in this regard.
I agree. I love vertical progression but there is a point when early players just pass so far ahead of new players that there is no real hope of significantly closing the gap.
My thought is that vertical progression should allow such a wide gap. It should be large but not HUGE. Then there should be a very wide bit of horizontal progression. This way players can constantly hone their characters, add something new, but not have 500,000 hp over the 100 hit points (or whatever) a new player would have.
Yeah, whatevers. LOL
which part was "whatever?" Me agreeing with you or me thinking that high level should be a bit compressed and there be an added horizontal progression system? I'm going to go with me agreeing with you.
I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, that's the way to go. But it still depends on the eventual numbers and gaps for it to be successful. I'm thinking that "large but not huge" may still be too much of a problem, considering how huge the numbers are currently.
(I'm thinking of this as being a steady decrease in HPs gained (down to a small minimum), and a steady increase in horizontal progression.)
Exactly. I mean, I don't know how that would work out but I still like the idea of players becoming powerful but not so powerful that they are gods and one shot other players. I remember being able to one shot lower level characters, not even level one characters but like 40's or so (if memory serves though it might not) and while that was great for "me" in a pvp game it did seem sort of unfair that they can't even fight back.
But then again, I think there should be reward for being higher level. That's part of the fun and being "more" powerful is part of that reward.
I totally agree. If done right, there won't be any need for "catch-up" systems. Of course, a Newb still shouldn't be in the conversation with Maxed characters. Nor should a character that's only half built, although maybe they could tag along as long as there's a Priest that's dedicated to keeping them alive.
There's a lot to consider when it comes to different classes and skills. Add in Horizontal progression and it could get very interesting, and fun.
Read 'catch up' as: Blow past all the boring stuff so I can get to the fun part. That is how broken this model is right now. As an aside, I'd like to offer that you don't really want to be listening to the people who want to blow past most of your game. If they don't get what you're doing, they're not the people you should be going to for game design ideas.
Developer: "So this game is going to be deep story-telling with branching paths..."
Customer 1: "Yeah, sure... can you make a way to blow past that?"
Customer 2: "I'd like to be able to buy a way to skip most of the content."
Three days later:
Customer 1 & 2: There is literally nothing to do in this game.
^--- Meanwhile, the people who bought the game what it is end up getting screwed.
I mentioned this before in posts here but the old level 20 command in DAOC was the worst thing that ever happened to the game. If you are not familiar, a while after launch, Mythic implemented a instant slash command where someone with a max level character could skip the first 20 levels of the game. The premise was leveling was slow and the first few levels were boring and the vet players were leaving because of it when leveling alts.
Come to find out, it destroyed the early game, you could not get groups in the lower areas (and DAOC was a grouping game), and with three factions already, the playerbase was already splintered and split. I consider it one of the dumbest ideas in all of gaming back then.
I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, that's the way to go. But it still depends on the eventual numbers and gaps for it to be successful. I'm thinking that "large but not huge" may still be too much of a problem, considering how huge the numbers are currently.
(I'm thinking of this as being a steady decrease in HPs gained (down to a small minimum), and a steady increase in horizontal progression.)
Exactly. I mean, I don't know how that would work out but I still like the idea of players becoming powerful but not so powerful that they are gods and one shot other players. I remember being able to one shot lower level characters, not even level one characters but like 40's or so (if memory serves though it might not) and while that was great for "me" in a pvp game it did seem sort of unfair that they can't even fight back.
But then again, I think there should be reward for being higher level. That's part of the fun and being "more" powerful is part of that reward.
I totally agree. If done right, there won't be any need for "catch-up" systems. Of course, a Newb still shouldn't be in the conversation with Maxed characters. Nor should a character that's only half built, although maybe they could tag along as long as there's a Priest that's dedicated to keeping them alive.
There's a lot to consider when it comes to different classes and skills. Add in Horizontal progression and it could get very interesting, and fun.
Meanwhile.
GW2 has Down Leveling for PvE, so there are no dead "Early Leveling Zones"
Up-Levels you to max for WvW, so there is no One-Shotting Newbs, but you can still level up as you play. You do not get full trait and skills unlocked, so you are at a disadvantage, just not to the point of being halpless in a fight
Fully Levels you to Max for PvP, with full gear and trait unlock so everyone in on even footing
For all the things they did wrong, they did a lot of things right. It's a mixed bag with that game, to be honest.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I misunderstood you, sorry. Yes, that's the way to go. But it still depends on the eventual numbers and gaps for it to be successful. I'm thinking that "large but not huge" may still be too much of a problem, considering how huge the numbers are currently.
(I'm thinking of this as being a steady decrease in HPs gained (down to a small minimum), and a steady increase in horizontal progression.)
Exactly. I mean, I don't know how that would work out but I still like the idea of players becoming powerful but not so powerful that they are gods and one shot other players. I remember being able to one shot lower level characters, not even level one characters but like 40's or so (if memory serves though it might not) and while that was great for "me" in a pvp game it did seem sort of unfair that they can't even fight back.
But then again, I think there should be reward for being higher level. That's part of the fun and being "more" powerful is part of that reward.
I totally agree. If done right, there won't be any need for "catch-up" systems. Of course, a Newb still shouldn't be in the conversation with Maxed characters. Nor should a character that's only half built, although maybe they could tag along as long as there's a Priest that's dedicated to keeping them alive.
There's a lot to consider when it comes to different classes and skills. Add in Horizontal progression and it could get very interesting, and fun.
Meanwhile.
GW2 has Down Leveling for PvE, so there are no dead "Early Leveling Zones"
Up-Levels you to max for WvW, so there is no One-Shotting Newbs, but you can still level up as you play. You do not get full trait and skills unlocked, so you are at a disadvantage, just not to the point of being halpless in a fight
Fully Levels you to Max for PvP, with full gear and trait unlock so everyone in on even footing
For all the things they did wrong, they did a lot of things right. It's a mixed bag with that game, to be honest.
Those kinds of "answers" to real issues, they break the "4th wall." That does just as much damage for players who want that "4th wall" for the immersion.
I mentioned this before in posts here but the old level 20 command in DAOC was the worst thing that ever happened to the game. If you are not familiar, a while after launch, Mythic implemented a instant slash command where someone with a max level character could skip the first 20 levels of the game. The premise was leveling was slow and the first few levels were boring and the vet players were leaving because of it when leveling alts.
Come to find out, it destroyed the early game, you could not get groups in the lower areas (and DAOC was a grouping game), and with three factions already, the playerbase was already splintered and split. I consider it one of the dumbest ideas in all of gaming back then.
Yeah that would be a good way to not be able to keep new players, a mmorpg needs a constant stream of fresh blood usually to keep it afloat, and that system ruined the experience for alot of new players as they often had to stuggle to solo to 20+ Often not seeing a single player outside of a city until lv 20+ zones.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Most MMORPGs have some form of vertical progression. Catch-up isn't a bad mechanic as otherwise newer players would never be able to reach the same content (in an ongoing game) as older ones. The key is to make it some kind of 'EXP boost' and being able to attract new players to make the experience organic, not just a purchasable skip.
Most MMORPGs have some form of vertical progression. Catch-up isn't a bad mechanic as otherwise newer players would never be able to reach the same content (in an ongoing game) as older ones. The key is to make it some kind of 'EXP boost' and being able to attract new players to make the experience organic, not just a purchasable skip.
The seasonal model Blizzard uses for WoW is part of the reason I quit that game. Every season, new gear rewards make the previous tier obsolete, making participating in the last tier unnecessary. This means that if you aren't there for the beginning of the expansion and stick with it, you miss out on all previous content that isn't relevant to the current season.
What I'd prefer as a catch-up mechanism is having the natural progression from one patch to the next. Meaning you do the content in one patch, then move on to the next, regardless of when you start the expansion. To speed things up and allow you to join everyone else sooner, they can allow higher drop rates and add tokens that drop off each the content you're doing to fill in the gaps that the higher drop rates don't fill in. The pace would be, using raiding as an example, a full set of gear in 4 raid lockouts.
The reason why I believe my proposal is better is because I hate missing out on content, but real life doesn't allow me to dedicate the time to a MMORPG and so I take breaks. This genre is an aging genre where, I'd wager, most of us are in our 30's to 50's. Meaning we have more important things to do than to no life a game. Missing out on content is often times a showstopper to even resubbing to a MMORPG we might have played in the past.
The seasonal model, level scaling, ability bloat, and ever-increasing complexity of dungeon/raid mechanics necessitating addons is why I've opted out on playing MMORPG's. Not to mention how easy developers has made leveling in every MMORPG and the pay for convenience, cosmetics, game currency, and other indirect P2W aspects in a cash shop.
Comments
If done right, there won't be any need for "catch-up" systems.
Of course, a Newb still shouldn't be in the conversation with Maxed characters.
Nor should a character that's only half built, although maybe they could tag along as long as there's a Priest that's dedicated to keeping them alive.
There's a lot to consider when it comes to different classes and skills.
Add in Horizontal progression and it could get very interesting, and fun.
Once upon a time....
That is how broken this model is right now.
As an aside, I'd like to offer that you don't really want to be listening to the people who want to blow past most of your game. If they don't get what you're doing, they're not the people you should be going to for game design ideas.
Developer: "So this game is going to be deep story-telling with branching paths..."
Customer 1: "Yeah, sure... can you make a way to blow past that?"
Customer 2: "I'd like to be able to buy a way to skip most of the content."
Three days later:
Customer 1 & 2: There is literally nothing to do in this game.
^--- Meanwhile, the people who bought the game what it is end up getting screwed.
Come to find out, it destroyed the early game, you could not get groups in the lower areas (and DAOC was a grouping game), and with three factions already, the playerbase was already splintered and split. I consider it one of the dumbest ideas in all of gaming back then.
GW2 has Down Leveling for PvE, so there are no dead "Early Leveling Zones"
Up-Levels you to max for WvW, so there is no One-Shotting Newbs, but you can still level up as you play. You do not get full trait and skills unlocked, so you are at a disadvantage, just not to the point of being halpless in a fight
Fully Levels you to Max for PvP, with full gear and trait unlock so everyone in on even footing
For all the things they did wrong, they did a lot of things right. It's a mixed bag with that game, to be honest.
That does just as much damage for players who want that "4th wall" for the immersion.
Once upon a time....
Yeah that would be a good way to not be able to keep new players, a mmorpg needs a constant stream of fresh blood usually to keep it afloat, and that system ruined the experience for alot of new players as they often had to stuggle to solo to 20+ Often not seeing a single player outside of a city until lv 20+ zones.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
What I'd prefer as a catch-up mechanism is having the natural progression from one patch to the next. Meaning you do the content in one patch, then move on to the next, regardless of when you start the expansion. To speed things up and allow you to join everyone else sooner, they can allow higher drop rates and add tokens that drop off each the content you're doing to fill in the gaps that the higher drop rates don't fill in. The pace would be, using raiding as an example, a full set of gear in 4 raid lockouts.
The reason why I believe my proposal is better is because I hate missing out on content, but real life doesn't allow me to dedicate the time to a MMORPG and so I take breaks. This genre is an aging genre where, I'd wager, most of us are in our 30's to 50's. Meaning we have more important things to do than to no life a game. Missing out on content is often times a showstopper to even resubbing to a MMORPG we might have played in the past.
The seasonal model, level scaling, ability bloat, and ever-increasing complexity of dungeon/raid mechanics necessitating addons is why I've opted out on playing MMORPG's. Not to mention how easy developers has made leveling in every MMORPG and the pay for convenience, cosmetics, game currency, and other indirect P2W aspects in a cash shop.